FEEDBACK: Rogue Class Changes

All abilities that aren’t simply “do X dam” are maintenance for every spec. There’s zero point in designing specs that only “do x dam immediately” over and over with zero nuance in the gameplay and it merely becomes a “press buttons as they light up” spec. That’s how you get BM Hunter. I don’t want Rogue to become BM Hunter.

Even if it adds ‘nothing’ (which I assume you mean it doesn’t add any extra ‘brain power’ for a skilled player), what it does is keep the skill expression between a bad Rogue and a good Rogue at a modest level. One of the reasons Sub is very beloved by vets of Rogues but maligned by newer Rogues is because of the skillcap around Shadow Dance since its inception. They’ve done a lot to reduce the skill requirement to effectively use Dance, but they could just as easily remove Dance and bake all that extra damage into Backstab/Eviscerate and make the spec a 2-button spec like Assassination used to be with Cut to the Chase. We can both agree that isn’t how Sub should be designed, and imo Assassination should move away from the slow, monotonous design as well and be forced to keep a lot of maintenance finishers up so the spec feels more ‘full’.

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To be clear, I am not advocating in the least for the elimination of all maintenance type abilities.

I think most people would agree that multiple maintenance finishers do not feel full and fleshed out, but rather like an uninspired weak class design. Some maintenance buffs are fine, but not as many as assassination has. SnD is particularly unfun and useless - too much of anything that can be perfected simply by downloading a timer addon is not good class design, nor is it interactive and engaging.

I would agree with you wholeheartedly that things like Dance usage are much more interactive abilities and skills that create the skill gap between unskilled rogues and good ones. Those things are good for the game. Slapping maintenance buffs on doesn’t make much of a difference if someone is playing a rogue for the first time or 15 years.

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I agree, and I feel that what makes Slice and Dice an even worse offender for Assassination is that it doesn’t offer any synergy with your resources, unlike Combat Potency for Outlaw and Shadow Techniques for Subtlety. The Dashing Scoundrel Legendary will give Slice and Dice some impact on the energy regeneration of the spec, but it seems silly for a baseline move to literally need a legendary to give it any impact on the spec other than more auto attack damage and more poison hits.

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Look at it this way.

Is spending those 5 cp’s going to do more dmg over time than spending it on envenom?

I think 30 seconds of 50% attack speed and poison procs going off more WILL = more than 1 envenom.

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Absolutely, Murrk, and as a damage increase, Slice and Dice is perfectly fine. I more-so mean for a more cohesive ability that makes sense in the rotation. You put rupture and garrote on targets because they are your DoTs, yes, but you also gain energy when they tick on a poisoned target, so you are rewarded for multi-dotting and playing the spec the way it is supposed to. Slice and Dice would just feel like a more meaningful/impactful part of the rotation if it had some interaction with the resource generation of the spec. Like, as an example (and probably not a great one):

If assassination had a passive that was very loosely inspired by Honor Among Thieves (Your auto-attack critical hits reduce the energy cost of X or Y finishing moving by Z amount. This can only occur every [x] seconds/stacks up to [y] times, et cetera). This would be something that would give a tangible bonus to making sure you never lose Slice and Dice, rather than it just being a simple DPS gain. It would also have the added benefit of rewarding pooling of energy, which could potentially help newer players maybe realize that is an important thing to do before cooldown usage.

Again, with Dashing Scoundrel legendary this all becomes a non-issue, but it seems unorthodox to resolve a core ability/rotational thing like Slice and Dice with a legendary.

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In this week’s build, Subtlety Rogue gains a familiar name as a new passive talent, Premeditation.

This talent allows the Rogue to skip a step during their opening onslaught, by providing Slice and Dice when Shadowstrike strikes a target from Stealth.

Outlaw Rogues will also see a familiar friend return in their talent tree. Dreadblades delivers a mighty strike to your enemy, and invokes the memory of the Legion Artifact active by causing combo point generating abilities to fill the Rogue’s combo points while active, but at the similar cost of their health when using these cursed combo points on finishing moves.

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Slice and Dice is currently healing for a very large amount while active, something like ~10% of your max hp per second. Are you guys intentionally trying to work a heal component into it or is it a bug?

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A familiar name is gained, yes.

However, this Premeditation does not serve nearly the right purpose.
With this NOT affected by Shadow Dance casts this becomes something that is only useful on a pull, or every 1 1/2 to 2 minutes when we pop Vanish/Sepsis…which in combat just means 2 free combo points and not very often, since we’ll naturally have slice and dice already active if we vanish during a fight. The First Dance was a perfect example of how free combo points could be added to a spec built around planning burst phases, which this talent needs to do as well.

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The new Premeditation talent as it currently performs will not be taken and dead on arrival.

Please change the second portion (the additional combo points) to work with Dance and Stealth like the First Dance azerite trait currently does.

Not looking for additional stats, just the combo points being added at the initial cast of shadow dance.

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Adding to what Zeratule and Liir said, this won’t really work in PvP unless one is using Subterfuge since we tend to open with Cheap. Even with Subterfuge, it’s rather iffy since the target could throw out their own CC if one opens with Shadowstrike.

So yea, I third rolling it into Dance. Or perhaps add it to Symbols (and get rid of the guaranteed crit if need be.)

Regarding Dreadblades, can we have the PvP multiplier apply to its damage done to us as well? By season 2 in Legion, the curse was doing as much damage to us as we did the target.

*ETA- ok, it’s not as bad as it sounded since you don’t have to open with Shadowstrike. Might be useful in PvP, if a bit awkward,

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Agreeing with others that the premeditation talent is currently worthless since it doesn’t trigger from shadow dance, spending a talent choice for 2 free combo points every vanish just isn’t worth it compared to weaponmaster.

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It has no duration so you do not need to use it only on pull and can trigger from Shadow Dance.

It doesn’t trigger from dance. Premed only happens if you cast stealth or vanish.

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The buff (which has no duration) happens if you are in Stealth or Vanish. The effect of the buff can trigger from Dance as it is consumed by Shadowstrike regardless if it is from Stealth or from Dance.

Yes, and in PvE, you’re going to open with Shadowstrike, thus consuming it immediately.

For PvP, it’s not as bad as the wording of the forum post made it sound, since one could sit on it until Dance, as you said. But since one will typically want a long SnD rolling before dance, it turns the spelll into a rather convoluted “shadowstrike generates 2 extra combo points sometimes if you can run behind a pillar to restealth” affair.

Which, actually, I could live with, lol. But I’m not quite sure that’s how they intended it to be used.

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Well Premed used to be 2CP so this is the same effect that you normally would want. You really only want SnD rolling when you are doing damage anyways, which will more than likely involve getting a re-stealth off anyways. You certainly wouldn’t blow CP during burst windows on SnD ever in PvP, so realistically this is just the go-to PvP talent since Gloomblade is a lot weaker than it used to be.

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I saw your other comments on the talent and I think we’re looking at it from two different game perspectives. In PvP yes, I can see this having more use, however as a PvE talent and not on the PvP talent list, this seems unconventional and just a very weak talent. And Shadow Dance can make use of the buff, but it doesn’t trigger the effect itself (as in, going into Shadow Dance doesn’t give you the effect, but allows you to use it if you saved it from earlier, which is just a weird game mechanic in my opinion and doesn’t sound intentional), I guess is more what I meant. I admittedly didn’t realize the buff had infinite duration, but that doesn’t really change much from a Dungeon/Raid perspective.

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Premed’s CD was lowered to 20s in Wrath or Cata though, no? While it will be fine for PvP, I’m not sure Vanilla 2m would really be worth the talent slot for PvE.

Either way, that the best way to use it would be to get SnD up first just seems… weird. Didn’t we already do this in Legion when they tried making it passive to simplify the spec, only for it to end up more complicated so they pruned it?

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I’m not saying it’s good, just that this is what everyone was begging for on the Forums.

Just because people want abilities back dosen’t mean we want them back as a talent choice.

It would be like if they put gouge on a talent row. We want the rogue class to just have its basic toolkit.

We already have to fight for raid spots, because we’re melee and bring no good utility or buff to the raid. On a lot of mythic kills you’re lucky to be the only rogue in raid.

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