FEEDBACK: Rogue Class Changes

Updated August 19

In this week’s build, Subtlety Rogue gains a familiar name as a new passive talent, Premeditation.

This talent allows the Rogue to skip a step during their opening onslaught, by providing Slice and Dice when Shadowstrike strikes a target from Stealth.

Outlaw Rogues will also see a familiar friend return in their talent tree. Dreadblades delivers a mighty strike to your enemy, and invokes the memory of the Legion Artifact active by causing combo point generating abilities to fill the Rogue’s combo points while active, but at the similar cost of their health when using these cursed combo points on finishing moves.

April 9

In this thread, we’re discussing Rogue class changes coming in World of Warcraft: Shadowlands.

Read more about initial class changes in the World of Warcraft blog.

This initial post will be updated periodically throughout the Shadowlands test. Please check back here for information about further updates to this class as they are made.

Thank you for your testing and feedback!


Shadow Vault seems incredibly underwhelming. Does less damage than Shuriken Storm in most cases, as far as I can tell. Is there something to it that I’m missing or is the damage just way too low?

Edit: Seems to be much better now.


I assume since the Pick-Pocket/Crimson Vial thing mentioned in the Class Change post did not show up among the tooltips in the Alpha it is not here yet. However I wanted to mention it in case it is present and I am unaware of some aspect I don’t realize to make it work.

On Outlaw Rogue, Roll the Bones as a cooldown feels GREAT. I would like the times I roll one buff to be a little punchier, so that two or more buffs feel more exciting/critical that I adapt, but that is a minor point. It being a cooldown and also costing 50 Energy feels bad. I want to press it at the beginning of a fight to set the tone for my goals, but I also wanna roll it again when I earn a re-roll with Restless Blades. It costing 50 energy robs me of that sense of satisfaction.

Side note, I miss the Pirate theme to the buttons. Run Through was more flavorful than Dispatch. Could we get more Legion-flavored pirate stuff as Glyphs?

Assassination feels good. I would love more of a Poison payoff? It is nice to keep rupture up on a target, keep poison procs on a target, and Shiv being back is awesome. From a damage point of view. Shiv doesn’t feel good to press. Not enough pizazz or animation to make it feel as good is it is numerically. Actually, I think my main complaint about Assassination is that is feels buttery smooth, but it doesn’t feel exciting. Like, Envenom is a stab. Rupture is a stab. Shiv is a tiny stab. I would love something for Assassination I could point to like Roll the Bones that FEELS exciting, magical, larger than life! Something I am motivated for, and come to expect of WoW.


Hello, I am a longtime, experienced Rogue who has previously played for many top US guilds, casual one night guilds and everything in between. I’d like to take this time to discuss my issues on Live and on Alpha regarding Outlaw’s future, particularly regarding Roll the Bones and its gameplay implications.

Why I dislike RtB on Live: It feels bad to make a choice between rerolling for better buffs and consuming CP for damage while sacrificing short term DPS, especially when you often have a lose/lose situation if you don’t get the buff you want and you have now wasted CP on rerolling. In other words, why do we have relatively weak buffs that punish the player, instead of strong buffs that always reward them?

What I think about Alpha’s implementation: The reason that the cooldown feels good to me initially is addition by subtraction: if I don’t have the option to reroll, it feels better to just use my finishers than to to hope that I get the right buff on my next roll while the ability is on cooldown. However, considering Alpha’s current design where Restless Blades lowers this cooldown, we will fall into the same trap as before where we are unhappy with the buffs we’ve received ,except now there is a significantly higher energy cost and we can’t reroll our way into better buffs immediately. I don’t want to be stuck, even for a short time, with a buff that makes me feel bad.

How I think we can improve it: Ultimately, I want to avoid lose/lose situations that occur because there are such terrible disparities between buffs. I think that the easiest way to balance buffs while maintaining the exciting gameplay they can present is to remove RtB from Restless Blades, and seperate rolls into two classes, one which significantly alters gameplay and one which offers a small, passive buff. The player is always rewarded with one of each buff on every roll. My suggestions are:

Major rolls:

  • Broadside (+1 CP generation for quicker finishers and faster gameplay)
  • Ruthless Precision (increased Damage on all finishers, more emphasis and oomph factor)
  • Skull and Crossbone (chance to proc extra Dispatch, Between the Eyes and Sinister Strike when they are cast).

Minor rolls:

  • Grand Melee (+25% attack speed)
  • Buried Treasure (+6 energy regen)
  • True Bearing (Chance to proc Adrenaline Rush for a short duration)

First off I’d like to start off English is not my first language, so if anything is unclear, I will try to explain it in a different way.

In this topic I will list all the bugs I’ve currently found with Sublety rogue and will find in the future. I am posting this on the forum because the explanation for any of these bugs was too big for the in game bug report or to make them public.

1: Slice and Dice (SnD) icon colour. FIXED: 23/04/2020
  • Issue: Currently SnD is gray when engaging in combat with an enemy. When combo points are being generated SnD will randomly light up somewhere in the fight.

  • Cause: It is currently unclear to me what causes SnD to light up. Sometimes it wouldn’t light up for 1-2 minutes, other times it would light up after getting the first combo point.

  • Effect: It makes the player feel like SnD can’t be used.

2: Echoing Reprimand (ER) (Kyrian Ability)FIXED: 23/06/2020
  • Background: When using ER the player gets a buff that signifies how many combo points they have to spend to empower their next finisher. This buff has three variations: 2 combo points, 3 combo points or 4 combo points. When the player uses a finisher with the same amount of combo points as the buff, their finisher gets empowered as if it deals 7 combo points worth of damage.
  • Issue: If the buff doesn’t get removed when the next ER is used, the player can have multiple buffs up at the same time. It is possible to have the 2, 3 and 4 buff up the same time. These buffs, however, are misleading. I have done over 20 test runs with two buffs and one with three buffs. From this I can conclude when a second ER is being cast, the first buff becomes obsolete and doesn’t work anymore. Only the second applied buff will work.
  • EXAMPLE: I use ER for the first time and get the 2 buff, then I wait for the cooldown and use ER again. This time I get the 3 buff. When I cast a finisher with 2 combo points, the extra damage does NOT get applied and the 2 buff does NOT go away. I can cast as many finishers with 2 combo points but it will never apply. HOWEVER if I do cast a finisher with 3 combo points, BOTH buffs will go away and the extra damage gets applied.
  • Cause: I think this is caused by the ability ID. I can’t check this but I think they have the same ID. So when another ER gets applied, the first one gets overridden but the icon doesn’t go away.
  • Effect: It makes it unclear how many combo points a player should use on a finisher which in turn causes them to lose dps.

1: Slaughter Visual Bug (Venthry Ability)
  • Background: When using this ability you coax your weapons in a lethal poison. Doing this gives your weapons a visual effect.

  • Issue:: The visual effect is attached to your hands and not to your weapons. This causes to visual effect to not apply to your weapons when sheathed but instead give a silhouette of your weapon coming out of your hands. See image for better explanation.

2: Secret Technique cd reduction
  • Background: Secret Technique is a level 50 Talent. The tooltip is: “Finishing move… deal X damage based on cp … Cooldown is reduced by 1 sec for every combo point you spend.
  • Issue: Currently Shadow Vault and Slice and Dice are not reducing Secret Technique’s cooldown. Tested out with 1-5 combo points.
  • Cause: Probably Shadow Vault and Slice and Dice not coded to interact with Secret Technique, since they are new abilities to the spec.
  • Effect: Reduced damage.

3: Backstab and Find Weakness (EDIT: 13/04/2020)
  • Background: Backstab’s tooltip ability is: “Stab the target causing X physical damage. Damage increased by 20% when you are behind your target, and critical strikes apply Find Weakness for 8 sec.”
  • Issue: Currently when using Backstab from the FRONT and critting, Find Weakness DOES NOT get applied to the target. When critting from BEHIND find weakness DOES get applied to the target. The tooltip, however, implies critting regardless of position applies Find Weakness to the target.
    EDIT 13/04/2020:
    While leveling a character I noticed Find Weakness was applying when I was critting with backstab from behind as soon as I got the ability. However, at level 21 you get Rank 2 Backstab. The tooltip you get after getting the ability at level 21 is the same as the tooltip in “Background”.
    I think the intention of the bonus is to make it apply Find Weakness when you are behind your target, and when you get Rank 2 Backstab it’s always applying Find Weakness when you crit regardless of position.
  • Cause: Either the tooltip is wrong and has to be rewritten, or the Find Weakness condition is programmed to the positional requirement, which shouldn’t be the case.
  • Effect: Unclear what the intention of this ability is now. Is it always supposed to apply Find Weakness when critting, or only from behind.

4: Gloomblade and Find Weakness
  • Background: Gloomblade is a level 15 talent which replaces backstab. The tooltip is: "Punctures your target with a shadow-infused blade for X shadow damage, bypassing armor. Critical Strikes apply Find Weakness for 8 seconds.
  • Issue: As with Backstab in point 3, Critical strikes DO NOT apply Find Weakness when used in the FRONT . It does apply when critting from the back, but that is not what the tooltip implies.
  • Cause: Either the tooltip is wrong and has to be rewritten, or the Find Weakness condition is programmed to the positional requirement, which shouldn’t be the case.
  • Effect: Unclear what the intention of this ability is now. Is it always supposed to apply Find Weakness when critting, or only from behind.

5: Eviscerate Double damage (EDIT: 13/04/2020)
  • Issue: When using Eviscerate I noticed two yellow damage numbers were popping up instead of one. At first I thought this was the Find Weakness bonus damage, but Find Weakness was not applied.
    After making sure I had NO proc based gear on, I started testing around. In the gif I cast Eviscerate twice. Once with 3 combo points and once with 1 combo point. But there are 4 different yellow numbers popping up. Recount is also showing 4 counts of Eviscerate hits.
    From my testing, I have done about 500 Eviscerate casts each with varying combo points and with/without Find Weakness, I have concluded the first hit is always the actual Eviscerate damage. The second hit can go as low as 50 damage to as high as 900 damage non-crit.
    Also the Find Weakness bonus damage is applied to the first hit. So I’m thinking the second hit is not the Find Weakness bonus damage.
    I’m also adding a video for clarity .
  • Cause: Maybe the Find Weakness bonus damage is getting applied again, double the eviscerate cast?
    As Josefine stated in her reply it’s not caused by getting Find Weakness at level 13 or by having two daggers equipped.
    EDIT 13/04/2020:
    I’ve leveled a rogue and it seems te caused by the Rank 2 Eviscerate ability learned at level 23. As seen in this video, at level 22 Eviscerate does not deal the second damage, but at level 23 it does.
    This makes me believe the extra damage is the shadow dmg portion, but it’s doing it when Find Weakness is not on the target, which shouldn’t happen.
  • Effect: Double the damage outside of Find Weakness. Wouldn’t make it fair.

6: Echoing Reprimand and Secret Technique NEW: 23/06/2020
  • Issue: Secret Technique is not consuming nor dealing the extra damage form Echoing Reprimand’s combo point buff. Example: ER is used, you get the 3 Combo Point buff, you use Secret Technique on 3 combo points, buff isn’t consumed and extra damage isn’t applied.

  • Cause: ER is a new ability and Secret Technique is a talent, so maybe their interactions aren’t coded yet.

  • Effect: Less damage, unclear if Secret Technique is supposed to work with Echoing Reprimand.

7: Sepsis (Ardenweald Covenant) Reset on death NEW: 23/06/2020
  • Background:
    Sepsis’ Tooltip: “…Cooldown reduced by 60 sec if Sepsis does not last its full duration.”
    Sepsis’ Actual cooldown: 1,5 min.

  • Issue: If the target dies or Sepsis is dispelled while Sepsis is on the target the cooldown gets reduced by 90 seconds instead of the 60 seconds according to the tooltip.

  • Cause: No idea, maybe a tooltip error or coding error. I think the latter else it would’ve probably said: “Sepsis’ cooldown gets reset…”

  • Effect: Higher damage output, unclear what the intention is with this ability.

8: Wound Poison not unlocking NEW: 23/06/2020
  • Issue: Wound Poison is not automatically unlocked upon reaching Level 32 but instead asks you to learn it at the trainer (img).

  • Cause: Probably an issue with making poison available to every spec.

  • Effect: Missing out on one poison permanently, confusing as to how to obtain this poison.

Thank you for reading through this, if you have any questions feel free to ask them. I will keep this post updated when something gets fixed/when I find something new.

EDIT 1: 13/04/2020 - Found new info on point number 4 and 6.
EDIT 2: 15/04/2020 - Added expandable groups to reduce post size.
EDIT 3: 23/04/2020 - SnD Fixed, Added Slaughter Visual bug
EDIT 4: 23/06/2020 - ER Fixed, new issue with ER added.
                   - Sepsis bug added.
                   - Wound Poison bug added.

Hey Lvltenchar, to potentially help narrow down one possible bug, did you have the lvl 15 talent Weaponmaster by chance during the double eviscerate because it’s a 15% chance to make Shadowstrike and Backstab hit twice, so maybe it’s not working correctly. I can’t duplicate what you saw, I do see 2 hits but one is physical and the other is shadow and the one that’s physical is doing more damage because of find weakness procs the shadow part.


I did, and I also tried speccing gloomblade and the NYI talent to see what would happen. On all occasions I got two hits.

I’m also getting two hits without Find Weakness. When Find Weakness is applied I can see the base damage go up (the first hit), the second hit still persists though.


Yep, was able to replicate it now. Build up combo points on a target, drop/finish combat with combo points, open on another target with eviscerate (and therefore it doesn’t have find weakness) and yep you get both the shadow and physical damage w/o find weakness.


I made a new character, and without ever getting into combo thus never applying Find Weakness I was getting the double damage on the first target I hit. As you can see in this video, the second portion of the damage seems to be random hence I don’t think it’s the hidden Find Weakness damage bonus.

EDIT1: Leveled a character, rank 2 Eviscerate is causing it, updated main post.


It doesn’t seem to be from both weapons hitting. I tried removing my OH dagger, and the second mystery hit was doing the same damage.

*Edit to add: The double Evisc doesn’t happen on a fresh level 10 Void Elf rogue. Going to go get some levels and see if it starts after learning FW.

*Edit 2: Doesn’t happen at level 13 after learning FW. Might be related to rank 2 Evisc.


While Sub is a bit buggy at the moment, I’d still like to give some initial feedback on the feels. (And sorry for double post, I didn’t want to clog up the previous bug related post in case someone is tracking them.)

First, the good:

Rupture: While the shadowy, whatever-Lilian-Voss-is theme that came with Nightblade was interesting, using Rupture feels does more like a rogue. It was also rather odd that Mut had a better stealth game in a rogue v rogue fight since they could cloak nightblade but their bleeds stuck around for what felt like a few days.

Slice and Dice: When it initially went away, it didn’t feel so bad since it had lost some value when combo points were moved to the player. In the many patches since though, its absence helped pave the way for Sub turning into a one dimensional stun+eviscerate machine. Bringing it back brings some more planning back to a spec that was always about, well, planning.

Poisons: Like Rupture, this has more rogue flavor than the shadow magic dot+snare from Legion. Like-- and along with --SnD, it’s something else to plan ahead. Not only do we get to pick the right poison for the job, but we use SnD to maximize applications/uptime.

Shadow Dance: Bumping this back to 1 charge is good news. While it was convenient to use it all the time for a while there, it kind of cheapened it (and surely lead to damage being nerfed). At the risk of sounding like a broken record, it will be nice to plan ahead for burst rather than just using it on cd since it’s up so often.

Find Weakness: This was one of the defining features of Sub, and it’s nice to have it back baseline. While Dance was always the “obvious” feature of Sub, FW was half the reason to use Dance to begin with.

Now, the not so good:

Find Weakness… from Backstab: And Shuriken Storm? I’ve not tested Sub a lot since it still has issues, but from smacking around random mobs and target dummies a bit, it seems like the debuff is up all the time. While the uptime would be useful on a raid boss you can’t get manual restealths on, doesn’t that kind of defeat its own purpose?

IE, if it’s not something you plan dance or vanish around and it just kind of… happens on its own, it sort of turns into a passive damage increase, no?

Shadowstrike: This grumble is mostly thematic, but getting good old fashioned Ambush back (like mut did) would further unify the class toolkit. Also, the teleport thing is still an occasional positioning headache on things with large hitboxes. Or mobs facing in that perfect direction to send you off a cliff or fall through the world and disconnect.

Last but not least, a couple of “wishlist” items.

Gouge: This was originally taken away due to increased Dance uptime and the de-escalation of the CC arms race that came with pruning. Since Sub is losing a charge of dance, it seems fair to suggest they get Gouge back. Especially considering stuff many other classes are getting back, be it baseline Cyclone for droods or more CC breaks for DKs.

While one of the main gripes about Gouge originally was that many considered it an extra “kick,” more often than not Gouge was used to help get behind someone. Sub is, after all, the only spec that still has a positional requirement on their primary filler.

Symbols of Death: That it’s essentially getting Cold Blood v2 rolled into it is kinda cool, it might be better to have it generate 2 combo points instead? I’m not certain that it would be mathematically optimal, per se, but it would bring back some of the flavor of using Premeditation for an opener.

Or, well, bringing back Premed would work too. But I’ll shut up now.


My initial feedback for Rogue would simply be that SnD seems excessive on both Assassination and Subtlety. You asked us to tell you if you gave us too much and I think this is a great example. Both of these specs feel much better maintaining just one dot/buff as a combo finisher, and Rupture is just fine for this. I would prefer that SnD be removed from these specs.

RtB feels pretty good but I agree with some other feedback that it should have no energy cost. It’s a cool down now and so the cost should be the wait, not resources.

My only other note at this early stage would be for Subtlety. Shadow Vault seems like a very unfortunate addition to the game. I really appreciate Sub’s single target through AoE flavour and this essentially eliminates that. I would prefer that Sub did not have this ability. However, there happens to be a wonderful ability that is extremely fun to use, as in, one of the most fun abilities in the 15 year history of the game: Legion’s implementation of Death from Above! I’ll never understand why this ability was gutted and then relegated to a PVP talent as a husk of its former glory.

One of the most fun rotations I’ve ever experienced in this game was waiting for DfA to come off cool down, capping combo points, dropping SoD, and then jumping high in the air before spamming Shadow Dance before I hit the ground to get that perfect activation. It was fun single target. It was fun in AoE. It was fun in PvP. It was glorious.

Please consider bringing it back.


I’d like to add some of my thoughts on Sublety rogue as well.


Slice and Dice
I do think Slice and Dice (SnD) is a nice addition back to Sublety. It pairs well with Shadow Techniques and to me it feels like it gives the spec a bit more flow.

Shadow Dance
Currently, if you’re not taking any increased Energy regen/reduced energy cost talents or Enveloping Shadows, Shadow Dance still lines up with Symbols of Death. The increased duration to 8 and reduction to 1 charge makes it feel a lot more powerful to press and rewards good planning and execution. I love it.

Flow of the Spec
Right now the flow feels really nice to play with. There’s little downtime and I can actually use Eviscerate outside of Shadow Dance. This new iteration of Sublety rewards good players, but inexperienced players can get Enveloping Shadows and not get punished as much as earlier iterations.

Could see some improvements

I know noone who liked Nightblade. Removing Nightblade and replacing it with Rupture is a step in the right direction.
However, at the moment its more favorable to apply rupture to every target when there’s 5 targets then it is to use Shadow Vault. If I wanted to be a multidot spec, I would’ve gone for Assassination instead. Also, there’s no other interaction with Rupture, making it feel a bit lackluster.

Shadow Vault
The damage it currently does is low. The animation is pretty much Shuriken Storm with an added jump to it. It feels extremely unsatisfying to press.
I agree with Shoeboots and would rather see Death from Above back as an AoE ability instead of Shadow Vault.

Secret Technique
At this point I’m curious why Secret Technique is not baseline. With the recent addition of Shadow Vault, we now have 2 spammable AoE finishers.
I’d love to see Secret Technique become baseline, BUT it’s cooldown not being reduced by Deepening Shadows.
This would give it a bit more oompfh while pressing it, and I feel like it would make balancing Sub on AoE a bit better.

I agree with everything Josefine said about Gouge in her post. This would also add a bit more utility in M+.


I’m up in the air regarding SnD for Mut rogues. As with Sub, I personally like that it adds some depth, but considering how much slower Mut is, I can also see how it would feel tedious to lots of people.

Perhaps it might be worth considering a rework of the Venom Rush talent so it causes Envenom to refresh SnD, as it did in MoP?

Yea, some interaction there would be nice. I thought to mention Sanguinary Veins in my previous post, but wasn’t sure if that would be stepping on Mut’s thematic toes too much. Maybe something like Finality (from Legion) or a revamped version of the Night’s Vengeance trait could work?


Assassination: Many rogues that I’ve talked to voice the same opinion, the spec is ‘incredibly boring’. It relies on maintenance and that’s about it, apm wise the spec plays VERY slow. There’s not any chance of complexity or versatility. You run Elaborate planning because it’s wildy overpowered compared to the rest of the talent row. At higher gear levels TB typically overtakes Exsang, and there’s no real choice in the final talent row. Nothing about alpha feels like that’s going to change, in fact it looks and plays even worse… (granted it’s the alpha and a first pass).

The spec right now feels like a dichotomy of two different and competing viewpoints. On the one hand we have two major abilities; Shiv (a la Toxic Blade) and Envenom which want short burst windows suggesting a pool->consume playstyle. On the other hand, we have 2 (live) and 3 (alpha) maintance buffs/debuffs that pull away from that (garrote, rupture, SnD). This causes the spec to feel incredibly disjointed. if we’re in that TB/Env window we’re often refreshing our maintenance rather than using any type of pool->consume. In fact, currently on live it’s recommended to just TB on CD regardless of pooling at all. Adding more buffs/debuffs is going to keep things a lot like that.

I’m all for the unpruning of abilities, adding SnD though to Assa (and honestly any of the specs) just doesn’t feel like it’s added any game play or complexity. It definitely feels like the spec got it simply “cause unpruning”.

Another major change was the adjustment of blindside from an execute ability to an “ambush proc” 20% of the time, and 40% in execute. In the same row is the incredibly powerful “Elaborate Planning” which is 10% dmg increase on finishers, which on live means essentially 10% dmg for 85-90% of the fight. Obviously we can’t necessarily use retail logs but for the sake of an example that means the following… Over the course of a 4min patchwerk fight there’s roughly 100 mutilates meaning that in execute there’s say 33 of which 13 on average would “proc” ambush generating 26+ combo points. This vs the static 10% dmg for 90% of the fight it’s going to come down to numbers tuning. In fact, on live the blindside talent is similar to the initial talent added in Mists and used in WoD, and the only issue with it is in fact tuning. On live it’s a significant decrease in dps due to how Vendetta works pushing the bulk of our dmg into a 20sec window and it’s overall lackluster dmg at 60% AP. Elaborate planning is simply too strong typically, and I don’t see a “similar” blindside working well unless it’s tuned accordingly. Even if it is tuned accordingly that leaves Master Poisoner NEVER being used as it’s not even remotely close.

The spec lacks any remote choice or complexity available to it even though the tools are there for it to work. Shiv/Envenom SHOULD be encouraged to pool before using. You should want to pool going into a Shiv (toxic blade) and consuming with an envenom immediately following with a couple mutilates for some real juice cycling through envenom until TB window is over and then immediately back into maintenance. For this to work though the energy cost of mutilate would have to be adjusted (as well as the dmg component to compensate). There should be a reason to build energy then toss it all out the window for damage. Blindside should be returned to the spec similar to the way it was in WoD and available baseline such that it’s a rotational changer. A proc based ability above 35% baseline would really add some depth to the class especially if we’re able to cast mutilates more often. It would skew our Shiv/Envenom windows and provide meaningful complexity as opposed to having just another buff/debuff to maintain in SnD. We need a reason to care about the damage bonus of Shiv/Envenom, we need the ability to push our buttons more often, we need to have some choice and decision making.

I recommend the following…

Elaborate planning should be nerfed to be roughly in value as Master Poisoner. Blindside should be baseline and similar to the WoD/current talent. It’s a 1 CP proc based ability >35% hp and available for use <35% HP, it’s dmg component is buffed to be reasonable and energy cost reduced to accordingly. The Blindside talent is replaced with something like “improved blindside” which further augments that ability by either energy cost reduction, better proc chance, or increased dmg. The talents in the row should be roughly similar in value though, currently they are not even remotely close.

Mutilate should have it’s energy cost reduced and dmg accordingly so that you’re encouraged to pool->consume->envenom in short burst windows yielding to the already possible interaction of Toxic Blade (shiv) and Envenom.

Marked for Death needs a rework, it’s CD needs to be drastically shorter to make it remotely interesting. Deeper Strategem as well, currently vigor is too strong. This might be different though with the above changes because the spec wouldn’t feel so energy starved. The only reason you can’t push buttons most of the time is you’re waiting for energy regen. If you analyze sims and logs you can see that Assa rogues spend roughly 35-45% of their time waiting for energy.

Getting TB baseline added to shiv was an amazing change, That’s unpruning done right in my opinion. We got back an old ability and it’s worked into our playstyle without any real significant interruption. We’re able to just use it well. The issue is, it was replaced in the talent tree by Alacrity. Exsanguinate is a really enjoyable ability, but it’s never going to see daylight if it’s competing against Alacrity.

Hidden Blades should be “hidden from the talent tree… permanently”. It was barely an interesting legendary and it sees next to 0% use across all variations of playstyle. A better change would be giving us our Azerite Trait “echoing blades” in it’s place. Even if you cap it’s aoe (which I absolutely dislike the design choice of) to 5 targets, you could easily improve it’s dmg by some % by the number of bleeds on the target, or even make it so it only “hits” targets with our bleeds on it “up to 5 targets”. That would provide us with an actual enjoyable contribution to the m+ or multitarget playstyle.


A bit more feedback on new Find Weakness.

I spent a bit more time poking dummies, and even without using Dance or Stealth, it wasn’t uncommon to have FW up for almost every Evisc via Backstab and Symbols. While it does fall off sometimes between Symbols, those are good times to refresh Rupture+SnD anyway, and building those up will often just reapply FW again.

In a way, it almost feels like a Fury warrior. Only with FW in place of Enrage, and Backstab instead of Bloodthirst to “fish” for procs. Symbols, then, becomes a slightly more complex Rampage, in that you use it to force FW via Backstab before hitting Evisc.

While this is mechanically sound on its own (Fury is fun and all), it’s essentially the complete opposite of how FW worked before. Being that one of the design goals was stronger but less frequent dancing, this inversion seems extra odd.

I guess the real question is, why? Is this to make FW a bit more useful/frequent in PvE (where manual restealths don’t happen often)?

If so, maybe it work to have Backstab crits extend FW by a few seconds rather than apply it? This could squeeze out some more uptime on a raid boss without turning the spec on its head.

As it is, there are already too many incentives to just tunnel somebody in PvP. It would be nice if Sub retained some reward for dropping combat to enter stealth.


(Sorry, again, for double post. There seems to be a rogue deficit on alpha ATM, but editing something a day later feels weird.)

Just want to drop a couple of notes on things which are somewhat small on the surface, but tie into overall feels.

Shadow Techniques seems almost like a vestigial limb left over from the spooky shadow ninja days of Legion, and was added to replace Energetic Recovery. Since Slice and Dice is back, why not just roll the energy regen into a new rank 2 for that? This would A: better inform players of the link between SnD and energy, and B: lessen the urge to just tunnel somebody in PvP for energy.

Likewise, making Honor Among Thieves baseline in place of the combo part of Shadow Tech would be a positive here too. Not just to dial back the tunnel vision, but getting combos while off target is one of those dirty tricks that always screamed “rogue.” This is true whether sitting in a Frost Nova in PvP or while doing mechanics in PvE.

And on something of a housekeeping note, having two spells with technique in the name and a bazillionty shadow somethings, it can almost sound like Who’s on First? when discussing rogues sometimes.


I have not gone over the thread. My issue is wound poison from a PvP perspective. Outlaw and Sub only being 15% is just not going to cut it. Either bring up the amount or nerf assass down to a max of 20% with master poisoner. You are offering false choices pvp-wise.

Why would I only want half the healing mitigation with specs that require you to have more uptime on a target because of assassination dots plus the ONLY spec to have a silence? Seems illogical and doomed for failure just like Legion & BfA rogue PvP from an Outlaw/Sub perspective.

P.S. I thought The Unpruner would have done more unpruning


So, to preface this post, I will say that I am a very “come what may” person with these sorts of things and just play whatever rogue spec fits best for whatever situation and encounter. I’m sure most other high end players of pure DPS classes will share the sentiment of being willing to play whichever spec fits best for an encounter. I don’t think I’ve flat out refused to play any of the rogue specs just because how they play. But since I have access, I do want to put forth my thoughts on some current things.

Slice and Dice: My main question is “Why?” I started raiding in Warlords of Draenor where Slice and Dice was made into a passive for 2 specs, and the 3rd spec was removed from the game in the following expansion. I don’t have the years of “this is a classic Rogue-defining ability” that a lot of people have. To me, Slice and Dice is just “press this button instead of this other button once in a while so you do your expected damage”. Maintenance buffs, in my opinion, are one of the most mundane components of a spec. Unpruning is cool and all, but I could do without it in its current state.

Roll the Bones: I think this is an interesting change, but it very much lives and dies to tuning. With the current RtB, I think most Rogues who complain about rerolling think that they’re throwing combo points into the void until the game decides to let them do damage. In actuality, they’re doing okay-ish damage as baseline because of everything else in the spec, and a good roll will let them skyrocket. This needs to be preserved with the change so that getting bad rolls doesn’t mean you aren’t doing damage. Also I think the 50 energy cost could go.

Shadow Dance: While I found the Subtlety Legion rework actually pretty fun (including the DfA combo), I also enjoyed the WoD and previous iteration of 1 big Shadow Dance. The only thing I wish for this is allow it to be cast during a GCD just to help it feel less clunky. But then again, that might not be needed with the charge system going.

A comment on stats: What prompted the change to let haste affect Rogue bleeds? I guess to normalize dots across the board? It just feels funny to me that the crit-desiring and haste-desiring specs got swapped. I’m curious to know if certain stats are still being specifically targeted to be good for a spec when designing them. Like back in WoD where each spec had an attuned stat.

More thoughts to be added later!