Feedback: Priests

Silence
We understand that Holy and Discipline are the two specs without access to an interrupt, either baseline or in a talent tree. We also realize Shadow has Silence in their tree which adds to the number of non-throughput nodes in their tree. With that said, we are not adding Silence to the Priest class tree. Having access to an interrupt is not something we view as necessary for all specializations. In PvP, Holy and Discipline already provide valuable control to their team and additionally having Silence would provide more control than we’re comfortable with. This is especially true with how much control is becoming available across all classes in Dragonflight.

This makes zero sense. 2 specs out of 38 won’t have an interrupt because you feel like it will give them too much control in pvp? Is there no consideration to how this will affect them in pve? If you are concerned with a healing priest interrupt being too strong in pvp, just make the interrupt not affect enemy players or something. It just seems outrageous to say there is too much control when you are literally giving every other healer interrupt. Please reconsider this, especially as the way the content is going, interrupts are becoming more and more important.

39 Likes

Whatever changes you make to Shadow in the future please dont take away the Mind Spike we have on the PTR! I love it! I can build a spec that lets me eschew Mind Flay entirely much like I could in the pre-patch going from WoD to Legion and that was the time I enjoyed Shadow the most!

The version of Mind Spike on the ptr right now is :+1: :+1: :+1:

Also, please don’t get rid of Holy Word: Life from the class tree! I really like having it as Discpline, and I can see niche cases where I’d even take it as Holy or Shadow!

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I’ve seen a lot of reasons that you folks over at Blizzard have given, that fall flat on their face the moment you actually read them out loud (like unfair advantage for running legacy content as a Soar nerf justification) but this is one of the most obnoxious.

So because literally EVERY OTHER SINGLE SPEC has an interrupt (in addition to every other form of CC they have access to) Holy and Disc don’t get one? That makes zero sense.

I’m curious what control you’re speaking of and why it’s so much stronger to those at Blizzard compared to other classes? Is it Mind Control? I’m mean sure it’s been known to disconnect your target in PvP, but that’s due to a bug that’s been around for years. Unlike any other classes CC, Mind Control also removes control of your character. Is it because of Psychic Scream, that requires us to be in melee? Is it because of Void Tendrils, that require us to be in melee? Is it because of Holy Word: Chastise, the 4 second ranged stun? Why is Chastise considered stronger than say Holy Paladins having Hand of Justice, Repentance or Blinding Light, and Rebuke?

What about Disc? They don’t have access to Chastise, so what control do they have now that you took Shining Force away? Scream and Tendrils?

Resto Shamans get Thundershock or Lightning Lasso, and Capacitor Totem, in addition to Wind Shear and Hex. WOW!

Mistweavers have Paralysis, Ring of Peace, Leg Sweep. Oh and So Priests having Vault of the Heavens is too much, but Monks can get Transcendence along with Roll, Chi Torpedo, Flying Serpent Kick (for Windwalker)

Like every reason you’ve given for Priest not having something is because there’s too much of it in other classes, so then why then are you punishing priests alone for the issues that stem from other classes? Why does Evoker get Fly With Me? It’s basically Leap of Faith with Vault of the Heavens combined…

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this doesn’t help for disc, but perhaps a talent for holy priests to treat chastise like axe toss for demo in shadowlands - Try to stun or incapacitate them first, and if they cannot, interrupt them?

1 Like

I posted this above, but I don’t feel like its appropriate to give every single healer ingame an interrupt.

Healers already have a lot of stuff to do in Mythic raids. They have to stare at healing bars on-top of avoiding mechanics. There’s been multiple raid bosses this expansion where there’s 2-3 mobs that need interrupts and you have to build a weak aura around it and assign 3-5 people to do it.

If healers are forced to put themselves in the interrupt order than it’s just extra workload on them. You’re there to heal… not be the 4th person on the interrupt order list.

So yes: just remove interrupts from all the healers except for Shamans and maybe Evokers.

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Hi! Thanks for providing an update on some of this stuff. This is the kind of explaining that we need more of (desperately) for priests. Particularly disc has been left in the dark as to the reasons behind a lot of big changes to our tree.

I would still really appreciate clarity regarding a couple things in the Discipline tree:

  1. Is shadowflame prism supposed to heal through atonement? Since it’s in our spec tree we have all been assuming it’s just bugged and will heal, but as release grows closer I am concerned that this is going to be a dead node instead of a huge help in m+.

  2. Where is mind blast supposed to sit for disc? Obviously I personally have been very vocal about the loss of the mind blast absorb being a huge blow for disc in pvp and m+ (and we’re also losing so much more in pvp that I am really questioning the necessity of losing most of what makes disc unique and playable in pvp), and strongly think it should be added back, but even if you disagree it would be helpful to hear not only why but where mind blast is supposed to sit in our kit. At present even with the (expensive per-point) talents bringing its power up like stolen psyche and twilight empowerment, it just feels very unrewarding to press.

  3. Rapture is still very very weak now and I really hope that the 30% modifier on it is a placeholder. Rapture being weak would be the biggest loss I can actually think of for disc in m+ and pvp, as well as hurting an important tool of ours in raids. Asking that also necessitates the question: why is power word: shield still weak enough baseline to not be worth casting for any reason besides it being empowered via aegis of wrath or leaving longer atonements? And so weak that the current value on rapture (30% increase) results in shields that are dramatically weaker than they have been ever before during rapture (since the legion rework). At present, on beta, rapture results in shields that are 364% spellpower, instead of the 495% on live without the exaltation conduit. With spirit shell gone, I do think the exaltation talent could afford to increase rapture’s absorption, since it won’t have to do the same for spirit shell any more. I also think that rapture needs to not lose any power, and that it should result in shields that are as strong as they are now on live, baseline. Ideally this would be through pw:s absorbing more damage baseline and rapture’s 30% being increased a bit, but if pw:s is not going to be increased any further than where it’s at now, rapture needs to be increased to a ~75% increase to pw:s.

  4. Why was evenfall removed? I think the priest discord was and is still collectively surprised and confused that it got cut. It provides a huge consistency boost without providing much of a power boost and I personally felt that as a healer that’s a very important thing to be able to talent into if one chooses to do so.

Seeing how much communication hunters get (which shouldn’t change - the team is doing an impeccable job with communication for them) and then getting radio silence from you guys with intermittent posts like this that only touch on a couple points, even after massive, extremely impactful changes to the disc tree like removing spirit shell, is frustrating. Spirit Shell got cut and we still have not had a post, no developer’s note, no communication at all about it. We still don’t know if shadowflame prism is supposed to heal, and are just all assuming it will. I have a lot more questions and I know most of the disc priest mains that are involved in the spec’s discords do as well, but the ones I listed above are the ones that I personally am most desperate for information on.

There’s much more than this too - why is weal and woe so incredibly weak given its position in the tree? Why on earth is sins of the many a prerequisite for evangelism? Those are the most counter-synergistic talents that could’ve been chosen to be paired together. Why is expiation, a talent functionally identical to painbreaker psalm - a talent that absolutely did not work out for shadow and will not work out for disc either (why would it? our dots are so incredibly weak in comparison for shadow, if it didnt work for them why on earth would it work for us? why would we want to burn our mana recasting our dots? its a negative node) in our tree at all? Why is lights wrath’s empowerment talent a multi-point node for such a small throughput increase over the course of a fight? Why is contrition a two point talent, if on the tree at all?

Anyway…

Lastly I have a couple feedback points on what you said today:

  1. Fully removing shadowmend would kill the usefulness of shadow covenant. I think it removing the cooldown and empowering a big heal is something that is interesting and helps the spell have an identity and have a place in our kit. Without shadowmend I do not think I would ever take shadow covenant, and disc would lose a large part of its identity as well, losing yet another shadow spell. It would be (yet another, sigh) massive blow in pvp that seems extremely unnecessary given everything else we’re losing.

  2. I do very very strongly disagree with shining force needing to be removed. That has such a massive impact on us in m+ and shining force wasn’t even taken often over reduced Psychic Scream cd in pvp (or at least, wasnt in season 1/2. idk about this season). Why cant that stay as a choice node somewhere with other control in the class tree?

  3. As someone who played shadow a lot as well this expansion, I’m sad to see hungering void and surrender to madness go. Those were the talents that made shadow fun for me, but Ive spent my time on beta mostly testing out disc with only a small amount of shadow playtime so I dont want to speak too much on it.

19 Likes

So to be clear. And let’s be honest with one another.

  1. Every other spec in the game now has an interrupt other than holy / discipline. Every other one. And you feel it’s not necessary. So because priests got put last on the list of receiving feedback due to internal issues or whatever, we’re the ones who get decided to miss out and you’re blaming PvP despite never caring about PvP throughout all of Shadowlands and most expansions in the name of PvE balance and performance.

  1. This entire post is quite literally: “Well other people can do it, so priests shouldn’t be able to, despite everybody else actually getting / being given the ability to do it.” Why? This feels incredibly combative. No other class has been told something like this in such massive bricks and every possible request priests have made has somehow been deemed as “not worth it” or “too powerful”. Spectral Guise? Really? Because, again, other people can do it, we don’t get to have one of the most fun abilities from priest’s entire history?

Nah. This feels terrible. This whole thing feels terrible and like other people are saying, as if priests are an afterthought. Again.

90 Likes

Interrupt is not a big deal and healer priest is there to heal and not be another to interrupt and also there’s already enough Active abilities and I guess none of you care about button bloat.

Also, there’s already enough classes with interrupt.

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So you’re arguing that we shouldn’t have something that literally every other healer (who have more utility) have already?

I get that you feel you need to be heard by your last few posts, but please. They’re starting to tone down the button bloat slightly.

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Yeah, every single other one.

Frankly I’m fine with not having things if there are compelling powerful alternatives. But we’ve also been told we can’t have those either because of PvP.

Are priests literally just here to provide stam and pi? And is shadow here to look purple since other specs have everything else shadow does besides access to the worst PvE interrupt in the game?

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Really disappointing to see that Priest is for the most part losing utility while many other classes and specs are gaining utility. Shining Force is a very useful ability in PvE scenarios that just removing it without being provided something else is frustrating to see. Having Shining Force as the choice node with Void Tendrils would actually create some potentially interesting choice between having a root or a knockback effect without having access to both in PvP scenarios.

While I am not as upset about the loss of Vault of Heavens, providing priests with some form of mobility that is not just a movement speed increase would be appreciated as we are the only primarily ranged specs without this form of mobility (Gust of Wind, Blink, Demonic Circle, Wild Charge, Rescue, Disengage).

Regarding interrupts, I can understand that having Silence as a spell might be too strong for Discipline/Holy in PvP. However, if that is the case, create a generic kick in the class tree (without the silence component) and then let Shadow upgrade it to silence in their spec tree. Being the only healing specs without access to an interrupt is painful and potentially hurts our viability in M+ scenarios. Even though we bring PI, Holy Paladin is able to bring an external buff and an interrupt.

Not seeing Spectral Guise due to “PvP problems” is sad to see as a primarily PvE player as it was one of the most enjoyable abilities to utilize when we had it in our kit.

With all that being said, I do appreciate the fact that you are trying to address the issue of button bloat as Priests as a whole feel like there are a few too many buttons currently - both rotationally and overall.

28 Likes

Why does the 9th row of every Priest tree (class/disc/holy/shadow) all have 2 point node walls? Same issue with 7th row save for a single talent in the Disc tree. These 2 point node walls are lame. As a Shadow Priest, I’m glad the Idol and capstone talents are pretty lack luster considering how frustrating it is to try and get even 2 of them, specially when I compare it to my warrior alt. They feel even worse when I see how little vertical connectivity there is. I HAVE to go diagonally out and I’m force to grab 2 point nodes to move down the last 2/3 of the tree.

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Void Tendrils is much better than Shining Force. It’s a 20s mass root which is plenty of extra utility for M+ and raids.

Shining Force just punted the mobs away for a few seconds and they were right back on-top of you. You’d probably push them away for like 5s. Also, you can punt mobs in the wrong directions and everyone gets mad at you.

I am going to miss the Psychic Scream slow conduit though. I think that should come back as a talent.

Doing something like Mage Tower was much more of a pain because you didn’t have the ability to control multiple melee mobs smacking you in the face. At least now I can root one of the melee adds for 20s which is enough time to kill the other ones.

It was just op in PvP because you can literally just kick people off platforms and stuff. I’ll miss punting people off bridges and stuff in BGs, but I still got Mind Control to throw people off.

Holy has a bit too much mobility right now. You can go feather → pws → repeat and just run around with a near persistent +40% speed boost. I’d much rather have Vault of Heavens though… but then Priests would cheese raid mechanics by leaping over everything.

Please make Prayer of Healing a smart heal rather than healing the nearest targets.

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This is what it feels like. We’re just here for a stamina buff and power infusion. We don’t get a kick. Our one form of serious control (mind control) incapacitates the priest on top of it for the duration of it.

There’s no point in playing priest right now.

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This is very strange reasoning, and a theme of your entire post: “Priests can’t have X because too many others have it.” But in the case of Silence, while you say not every spec has to have access to an interrupt, it’s literally only Holy and Disc now that lack this, out of 38 total specs. Why is the line 36/38 and not “all specs”? Do you really think Priest mob/player control is that much stronger than, say, Mistweaver (Para, Leg Sweep, Song of Chi-Ji, RoP, Spear Hand Strike, Disable)?

If there are too many knockbacks, why did you add them to Evoker and Shaman and then remove it from Priest? Why not leave it with Priest, who have had Shining Force for 3 expansions now, and not add it in to the toolkit of other classes? This was an extremely useful ability in many M+ scenarios, and it really sucks to see it gone as even an option somewhere in the tree. Healing Priests bring virtually no “regular” utility to an M+ group now, just niche spells like Mind Control, Mass Dispel, Mind Soothe and Leap of Faith. Those are nice, but that toolkit doesn’t seem so overly expansive that a knockback had to be removed.

Once again - others get it, so you don’t. I don’t necessarily think Spectral Guise has to come back for Priest, but I’m highlighting this to show how prevalent this theme is in your post, and mention how demoralizing it is to see this kind of statement so frequently.

I agree that Dispersion shouldn’t be added to Healing Priests’ toolkits, but Desperate Prayer needs a better “modifier talent” than Light’s Inspiration, which is nearly useless. Improving that node to add a DR component or increase the %health gain instead of adding a paltry heal over time effect would help this situation.

I don’t want to sound too snide here, but given how little the team seems to have weighed player feedback into this recent post, it’s hard not to read this line and wonder why exactly you’re looking forward to additional feedback.

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I strongly believe the mention of PvP in all this is a strong compelling case that it shouldn’t be in the same place as PvE stuff.

Good discussions about Silence, it’s a bit awkward to think that two priest specs would be the only ones without one, at this point theres no reason to hold back really.

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Tendrils is a capped root and Shining Force is an uncapped knockback, they both provide different sets of utility that help in different situations. That would make sense as a choice node. Personally, I would much prefer SF over VT in mythic plus.

Except each both of them provide the same benefit (bonus movement speed). Unless you need Shackle, there will be little reason to talent into both of them. Having an alternative form of mobility (blink/teleport/reverse grip) provides a unique form of mobility that can be used in different ways. I hate to bring up the example from multiple expansions ago but Mythic Kil’Jaeden as a priest/paladin was far more difficult compared to every other class in the game because they had access to mobility that was not simply a movement speed increase.

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What I more wanted to focus on is the Shadow Tree

The top section of the shadow tree still suffers from the same problem. In Single target I will pick silence or dispersion and never both. I get the philosophy of not putting dispersion in the class tree (Silence not so much) but it really seems like all the problems of the spec tree top third gets resolved if one or both of those abilities gets moved to the class tree.

Middle third I actually believe is very close to good. When I fill this out in real time I always take ancient madness and then run down the far left and right sides. The issues with this is the choice I have with my last point or the fact that I have 1 point. So for single target I put the point into mental decay and then I have the awkward choice of choosing unfurling for 1 point or psychic link for 2 points to get to dark evangelism. I will always want dark evangelism but its behind two talents that actually dont do anything on a single target fight. AoE im not sure but it gets a bit more messy and will come down to sims rather than preferred talents which I’m personally ok with but I know a lot are not.

The final third Im not sure how I feel about it. I believe when you get to the capstones you should feel like you are having to choose between good thing 1 and good thing 2 multiple times on this section of the tree. I go straight for Shadowflame prism on the bottom left (I really hate this talent but its hard to argue with the results) and then I take derangement. I now have my 5 remaining points to spend on the next capstone I want to acquire. current tuning being ignored I think this is a good set up but there are a few issues making it not so easy.

Monomania I dont think can ever be tuned high enough to be more relevant than insidious ire in single target and mastermind or pain of death in aoe.

Dark Evangelism hasn’t been taken yet and its a hefty maintenance buff thats free. If its worthy of its two points im probably doubling back to get unfurling (Which does nothing on 1 target but its a 1 point access) and then Dark Evangelism.

I now have 2 points left and 90% of the time i put it into insidious Ire and im done. This will feel weird where I really think the final section of the tree depends entirely on how useful dark evangelism becomes. If pathing to dark evangelism improves and/or it becomes more accessible point wise then bottom third seems alright but I do not believe its going to be the case with the current tree iteration

The shadow tree is getting somewhere and I think its really close I appreciate your efforts and hope there is continued iteration in the future.

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Generally I try to keep to positive feedback. I would strongly encourage you to reconsider both of these abilities. It’s a very difficult message to hear that Holy Priest for example would have a kit that’s “too powerful” with these abilities. When you compare the overall kit that Priest has to Resto Druid, Resto Shaman, Holy Paladin, etc. that doesn’t make sense.

I fully agree with the statement that interrupts are not necessary but having two specs out of every spec in the game that does not have access to this is wrong. This is going to put Priests at a severe disadvantage compared to other healers in M+ PVE content. There are definitely moments in a key where having a healer kick means the difference between a wipe and saving the group (think Goliaths in Spires for example or a kick on Medivh in Upper Kara).

The other main factor I think is being missed here is that Healing Priests will be considerably less desirable in multiple M+ comps due to their lack of an interrupt. A 1 tank, 2 casters, 1 melee comp is going to be much more difficult with a Priest than it would be with say a Resto Shaman (12-second Wind Shear kick). The group simply won’t have access to the same number of interrupts and in a coordinated group that may be ok but in a PUG no one is going to want a Priest over any other healer if the comp doesn’t have multiple melee kicks. That feels awful and its unfair to put Priests in that position. Groups should choose their Healer based on how strong the player is and not whether or not something critical, like an interrupt, is missing from their kit.

I would happily give up Psychic Scream for example if it meant getting access to Silence and/or Shining Force again. Fear is almost completely useless in most content given in almost all cases, the best possible strategy is to group things up and keep them that way.

I think a much better way to handle the Priest kit would be to remove the Sheer Terror talent (which will never be taken in PVE) and replace it with Shining Force. Then combine Body and Soul and Angelic Feather into a choice node where Angelic Feather is sitting now and put Silence into the spot where Body and Soul sits. Then replace Silence in the Shadow tree with a new Talent that reduces the cooldown of Silence for Shadow only down to a 24-second regular caster interrupt.

As it stands now though, I will not play Priest at all going into Dragonflight and that makes me very sad. I was really enjoying it in Shadowlands.

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