I think what bothers me more than anything about this is Shadowmend is a self-created problem. It was fine as it’s been since Legion. This was a completely unnecessary change which feels like it does nothing other than ruin the priest kit.
Discipline Priests, now having a single healing tree, must be given access to a PvP talent similar to Zen Focus Tea, Ancestral Gift, Obsidian Mettle, etc in order to give at least a small window in which Disc Priests will be able to cast. Holy Priest at least has access to Sanctified Ground and Holy has better defensives (IMO).
I am a bit late to the party, as Shadow Mend has just been removed, but I have some specific feedback concerning Shadow Covenant and Shadow Mend.
I think the current iteration of Shadow Covenant (with Shadow Mend available) has an enjoyable gameplay loop that provides options of its usage, specifically in a dungeon and sometimes PvP setting. This makes it a very engaging button to press due to its low cooldown. When also talented into Twilight Corruption and Shadowflame Prism, the player has 3 choices of spell combinations to cast during the 7 second duration.
- Single target damage example: SCov - Schism - Mindgames - Mind Blast - Divine Star/SW:D - Dark Reprimand
- AoE damage example: Mindbender/Shadowfiend - SCov - Schism - Mind Blast - SW:D (1x or 2x) - Divine Star
- Spot healing example: SCov - Spam Shadow Mend
The damage scenarios are still relevant without Shadow Mend, but the recent changes to Shadow Covenant gave it a lot more flexibility, the lack of which has always been the main reason holding it back and making it irrelevant when the Holy spell component was still present.
The solution doesn’t necessarily need to be to give Shadow Mend back, as you don’t want Shadow Mend in the class tree due to button bloat, but keeping the spot healing component of Shadow Covenant is needed for it to stay relevant. Not only does it make SCov fit more situations, it also fills the void of Discipline having little spot healing. I suppose the first idea that comes to mind is that SCov turns Flash Heal into Shadow Mend, same way as Penance turns into a shadow spell.
As a side note, Embrace Shadow is still counter productive to what Shadow Covenant is trying to accomplish. It takes away shadow spells, decreases the need for decision making, all together provides close to zero benefit. Even having Dark Reprimand (which still needs to be made to hit more than Penance pls) and Shadow Mend as a choice node would be welcome.
Still messing around but looking at the shadow spec tree I think it is very likely to have situations where the optimal build is to pick none of the capstones.
Could we get some clarification on the current state of the Idol Talents and how they are intended to work because Y’shaarj seems to need tuning, C’thun proc rate is terribly small and benefit terribly weak, Yogg-Saron needs a tooltip clarification if its supposed to be 1 stack per ability that makes apparitions or 1 stack per apparition spawned as it works with the former right now but the tooltip is the latter and finally N’zoth is scaling off attack power so its hard to tell how much damage this is supposed to do.
Could we also please get a connection from ancient madness to dark evangelism. Right now there are scenarios where you dont want shadow crash or unfurling but do want dark evangelism. Could also see dark evangelism reduced to a 1 point talent and put a third option between ancient and evangelism allowing you 3 pathways to evangelism all with similiar point investments
Holy Priest General Tree Feedback on 9/21/2022 changes:
I’m just going to cover the changes deployed in today’s update as I already provided suggestions/feedback on the talents that were mostly unchanged. Feedback: Priests - #240 by Caithyra-stormrage
- Improved Flash Heal helps correct the single target HPS throughput loss of needing to cast more Flash Heals w/ Lightweaver compared to Flash Concentration. On the flip side this talent pushes Flash Heal closer towards the throughput of Heal (there’s only a 20% difference now). Lightweaver or Heal might need to be buffed to take this change in account because going a full PoH build vs Lightweaver build has a lot less drawbacks if there isn’t that big of a gap on single target healing.
- Protective Light/From Darkness Comes Light are the two talents that node off of Improved Flash Heal. Protective Light works off of Trail of Light as well as Flash Heal so you can get a fairly decent uptime of a -10% DR. This plus Translucent Image gives Holy Priest a reasonably easy -20% DR to use on higher end content. From Darkness Comes Light seems kind of weak in comparison and probably needs to be buffed to more than 1%.
- Shackle Undead is still tied to a single node entry point. This time instead of Body and Soul you have to take Angelic Feather.
- Dominant Mind is really powerful with being on a 30s cd. You can basically keep a creature thralled an entire dungeon run. This is honestly kind of a big utility buff for Priests in M+. The only feedback I have is the MC should last a lot longer than 30s. Control Undead lasts 5 minutes for Death Knights.
- Lights Inspiration is actually a worthwhile talent to take, but I don’t think it’s worth 2 points. However, at 2 points you get +40% increased health and healing (which scales off of Echo of Light) which is pretty chunky.
- Trees getting so stuffed with utility stuff I’m getting point starved now. Still a lot of uninteresting bottom tree abilities like Power Word Life, Void Shift, and Angelic Bulwark.
Hello again Priests,
We appreciate the responses to last week’s post. We’ve made some additional changes to the Priest class this week that are aimed at addressing some of the shared concerns.
Power Word: Life and Mindgames
Both spells will remain in the talent tree. While we do want to reduce the number of active spells, Power Word: Life is an exciting new spell for the expansion and Mindgames is a unique and fun spell as well as the only Covenant spell we’re bringing forward, so we’re happy to keep both. In the long term, we will still look for areas to consolidate the number of active spells for Priests.
Mind Soothe is now a 12-yard radius AoE with a 5 second cooldown. Mind Soothe is quite niche, so we felt this improvement to its usability could bolster utility Priests bring into dungeons.
We’ve made a change to Light’s Inspiration targeted at improving Priest survivability when using Desperate Prayer both proactively and reactively. With both points in Light’s Inspiration, Desperate Prayer will now provide 40% increased maximum health during its effect.
We have decided to move forward with removing Shadow Mend and have adjusted talents related to it. Shadow Mend on the Class tree has been replaced with Improved Flash Heal, and the choice node branching from it now affects Flash Heal instead. We are aware that for Discipline single-target emergency healing Flash Heal is weaker than Shadow Mend. We will monitor how this affects Discipline healing and are okay with increasing the value of Flash Heal for Discipline if needed.
Halo, Divine Star, and Cascade
We made changes to Halo for Dragonflight, allowing it to deal increased damage and healing based on distance. We’re reverting this change due to negative interactions with Halo’s soft target cap and general usability issues. Also, we’re changing the targeting rules to Halo. It will no longer deal damage to enemy creatures not in combat. It will continue to damage players and pets regardless of combat state. While this can be considered a downgrade at times in solo content, we felt it was enough of an improvement in instances to go forward with the change. Thank you for your feedback regarding the spell.
For both Divine Star and Halo, we’ve also blacklisted pets from being counted towards its healing caps for improved usability.
Regarding Cascade, it’s a spell we’ve discussed and are still considering in the long term. We want to take the time to think through the spell in the modern talent system. It’s a spell that all 3 specs are excited about, but bringing it back in its original form while having Divine Star and Halo or replacing one of the two was not the way we thought best to approach it.
Lenience and Evangelism
Like Holy Word: Salvation and Apotheosis for Holy, these talents can feel mandatory in certain content types, so in a future build we’re moving the choice to row 8 instead of being capstones.
Expiation and Inescapable Torment
These talents are intended to function with Atonement. Inescapable Torment will follow standard AoE rules with Atonement, meaning it will Atone based off one damage event and not all 5 hits.
We’ve been concerned about the number of active auras players may need to keep track of in Dragonflight, so initially we hid the stack tracking for Harsh Discipline. In a future build, we plan to expose the aura as it’s a common request to know its status. Thanks for the feedback.
This talent is designed to synergize with Prayer of Mending builds while simultaneously being an option to boost Holy Word cooldown reduction. While we’re excited for this effect, there are two interactions we’re preventing to balance its power. The first is that triggering Apotheosis through Answered Prayers will not reset the cooldown of Holy Word: Sanctify and Holy Word: Serenity. The second is that Casting Holy Word: Sanctify and Holy Word: Serenity while Holy Word: Salvation is on cooldown will not reduce the cooldown of Holy Word Salvation by an increased amount. The talent has been met with a great deal of positivity and we are equally excited, and we hope you can understand our reasoning for preventing these interactions.
Mind Flay: Insanity
We’ve made a change to Mind Flay: Insanity targeted at shortening the amount of time spent channeling Mind Flay: Insanity while increasing the value of casting it. Devouring Plague now only transforms the next cast of Mind Flay into Mind Flay: Insanity; however, we’ve increased the damage of Mind Flay: Insanity, increased its Insanity generation, and increased its slowing effect.
Idols of the Old Gods
We’ve moved all the Idols back to being capstone nodes for the tree. We feel this is thematically appropriate and that each can be tuned appropriately to be exciting talents to chase.
Charges on Mind Blast
We’ve removed the extra charge of Mind Blast from Void Eruption and added it back to Shadowy Insight. We hesitated to do this originally because there are many spells that can proc and compete with one another, but in the end that’s an argument for having the extra charge so there’s less pressure to cast Mind Blast on cooldown. Thank you for your feedback.
Screams of the Void
We’ve made changes to Screams of the Void to improve its effectiveness, especially in AoE. We’ve added Void Torrent to the single target effect as a small way to increase synergy between Void Torrent and other talents. The more impactful change is that while channeling Mind Sear, all DoTs will tick faster.
Dark Ascension and Void Eruption
Between Void Eruption and Dark Ascension, we’re positioning Dark Ascension as the simpler option that is more frequently available. We felt a 1-minute cooldown would allow it to sync with other cooldowns.
For Void Eruption, we’re looking to carry forward a mechanic that has existed in various forms since Legion, extending the duration of Voidform through gameplay. This was an opportunity to tie the extension to something less demanding than casting Void Bolt as soon as it’s off cooldown, so moving forward spending Insanity while in Voidform will extend the duration of the effect. Casting Mind Sear and Devouring Plague with Mind Devourer active will also extend the duration of Voidform.
We’ve taken another look at Mind Sear recently and have made further adjustments to improve its gameplay feel. In a future build, Mind Sear will tick every 0.75 seconds for 3 seconds, consuming 25 Insanity per tick and will not be castable with less than 50 Insanity.
We’re adding Mind Flay to Psychic Link, so that talenting into Mind Spike is not required to have an AoE filler spell. In combination with Mind Flay: Insanity against a low number of targets we foresee this having potentially useful interactions.
Thank you again for your continued participation and feedback during the development of the Priest talent trees.
Thank you again for the feedback.
Is it possible to add some passive second choices for the nodes on the bottom? As a Holy Priest I find Power Word: Life to be entirely redundant and just an extra button on the bar.
I approve of this change.
I just noted this above. Angel’s Mercy + this talent is a fairly decent survivability increase. I just think it should be 1 point instead of 2 points.
Thank you for addressing Halo. The biggest sore point I had with Halo vs Divine Star is mainly the 40s cd. I haven’t crunched how much more Halo does now per target, but it does need to see a sizeable HPS/dps increase.
Also, double thank you for blacklisting pets on Divine Star & Halo. Divine Star in a raid environment was doing a giga amount of overhealing on pets and it diminishes how much healing you can do on players that needed it.
Cascade as a choice on the bottom of the Priest General tree would be nice.
I had already noted this problem before that Answered Prayers would lead to basically pumping out Holy Word Salvations like candy if you didn’t tone it down.
I’m honestly confused on your wording though. Will casting Holy Words while under Answered Prayers Apotheosis not decrease your Holy Word Salvation cooldown? I know the PTR Holy Words still decrease your Holy Word so I don’t think you meant casting Holy Words won’t decrease its cd anymore.
I think the simplest solution however is to just put Holy Word Salvation on a flat cooldown. 3.5-4 minutes. It puts a lot less pressure on a Holy Priest player to try and pump out as much Holy Words as possible to get it reset asap on-top of putting a less of premium on talents that you only take to get a faster Salv reset.
I am so glad you landed on this decision. Power Word: Life is an amazing spell that Shadow can play with introducing interactions with healing options that have generally been missing.
I like the idea of the AoE aspect of Mind Soothe, but it is often the case that I am Mind Soothing targets across from one another to create a safe path. In this scenario, this change is a massive regression in quality of life, and I wonder if you can somehow allow us to have AoE Soothe without a cooldown.
I like the idea of the Idols being our only capstones, but right now none of them are exciting. I hope you iterate on them further in an upcoming build.
I don’t think this change will feel good. I haven’t had much chance to play with the recent changes, but I would think I like where it is now with 25 Insanity every 1.5sec over 3 globals more than this proposal. We’ll have to see once I get to play with this proposal.
I’m really not seeing a spot for Mind Flay: Insanity in our rotation. We cast Devouring Plague very frequently, and our cooldown windows change our priority to effectively remove Mind Flay from our rotation. With Voidform it is Void Bolt, and with Dark Ascension it is Mind Spike spam. What is the purpose of this talent?
This Mind Flay: Insanity and Psychic Link interaction confuses me. I feel like there’s no room in the rotation to fit a full Mind Flay before using another Devouring Plague, especially with the increased duration.
Additionally it blurs the lines of when to use Mind Flay and when to use Mind Spike. Before Mind Spike appeared to be the default AoE filler interacting with Psychic Link, which was fine by me. Now I’m not so sure…
I said it up there, and I’m going to say it again. Removing shadow mend from discipline and shadow does nothing other than over complicate a self-created problem. Stop doing that. There is no need to overcomplicate this situation. Have Shadow Mend replace Flash Heal like it always has for these two specs. Why is this such a problem? Just have Masochism interact with the same spell ID, and have this new talent simply increase the healing of Shadow Mend.
Muzzle replaces Counter Shot in the hunter tree. I am incapable of understanding why this is something you seem dead set on doing. I would genuinely like an answer as to why Shadow Mend is such an issue for the development team and why instead of having it function as it always has, we’re just destroying it.
At least this is a plus.
I agree with this. Perhaps this could find its way into the class talent tree
The 7th and 8th rows seem odd to me. I feel like swapping places for Maddening Touch and Dark Evangelism along with swapping the Mindbender>Inescapable Torment>Y’Shaarj column with Damnation/Void Torrent>Malediction>N’Zoth column would feel better when trying to build between a Dark Ascension Mind Spike build and a Voidform Mind Flay build.
The Coalescing Shadows>Puppet Master>Harnessed Shadows path should buff Devouring Plague and Mind Sear instead of Mind Blast and Mind Spike. Their interactions with Mind Spike feel particularly yucky to me.
Basically, left side of the tree should be where our periodic damage and channeled spell focused talents are while the right side should be our direct damage focused talents are.
Thanks for the continued adjustments and iteration , its been welcome to see
love this change, it certainly ups the quality of life while using it in dungeons, dunno about bolstering of utility with its cd
fair adjustment but leaves so major holes in shadow covenant still
dosnt seem to work with psychic link if someone wants that
Personally I’m a fan of this change but I believe some pathing and their locations could use some changes I still have issue with what the idols do.
Cthun procs very little and dosnt seem to be doing any damage via combat log,
Yogg-saron is not affected by apparitions procced from Tormented spirits and in general is very slow to stack as its counter goes up via damage events that cause apparitions to spawn and not the apparitions causing damage, evn then its damage is also very underwhelming also not affected by dark ascension
Idol of Nzoth while appearing to be a nice aoe addition to damage scales still from attack power and its location leaves a bit to be desired for a pure and really only aoe capstone.
Also a welcome change still I think some pathing changes might make sense and be useful initial thoughts? moving Shadow fiend and its associated things more central
Tuning asside Is Da not supposed to affect idols?
I personally like the differences in use and effect of the two different cooldowns but is Voidform replacing Shadowform and only giving 10% spellpower , a net neutral spellpower difference intended or an oversight?
I will hesitantly say Im scared of the vf extension via insanity, because it seems for force a cap on aoe applications of dots , the cap is something I would like removed or increased. Or the extension will cause a massive rebalance later down the line of insanity generation, Which … seems counter to the next thing I wane ask about
First, this is not a true aoe filler as it require VT to be applied which shadow very limited in how many targets shadow have VT on, obvious, i guess , but the wording choice used makes it seem like its not. Also The damage event coming from Psychic link instead of thier base spells limits interactions such as insanity generation , would prefer it to act more like fire and brimstone from warlocks even if it still requires a Vt enabler.
Some address for shadow of Teir 1 talents, top 8 or whatever people wanna call it would be a welcome addition locking that much utility at the start forcing a defensive or utility pick still feels really really rough and a bad choic to have to make, Pleas I implore , use if nothing else the spec specific class trees. THIS and the cooldown of silence and getting a non standard ranged KICK is my two bigest gripes of Shadow at the moment
Lesser of a note can priest get an aoe cap removal on fear and roots? its the only baseline cc and its all melee, would prefer to have it not capped and not melee but mindbomb seems to be out of the picture. I would also say maybe get it to blacklist pets? but sometimes you wanna get the hunter pet off you, or prevent the warlock pet from interrupting you
I think this overall look like largely positive changes. I’ll write up some longer form thoughts later, but one immediate question is the positioning of Idol of N’Zoth. It’s an ability that seems optimized for stacked multi-DoT situations, but it’s locked behind two branches which are both purely single target. Is this intentional, or can we anticipate Idol of N’Zoth moving in a future build?
Also, thank you for bringing up Cascade. It’s a favorite of most and I’m glad we got some communication on it. I’m excited to see it potentially come back.
Discipline and Holy both have different active spell problems in their kit at present.
The cooldown of PW:Shield is far too short, causing you to so consistently be weaving it into your spell priority that it almost doesn’t feel like the cooldown is noticeable. I would vastly prefer a 12-15 second type cooldown on Shield with a commensurate buff so that you are weaving it less into your active spell use and its power is more noticed.
For Holy, specifically in a dungeon environment, Empyreal Blaze clogs up your damage rotation with a low cooldown that forces damage globals on back to back bases. Would recommend that the ability is changed to empower your next Holy Fire cast to cleave enemies or if there are no enemies to stack the Holy Fire DoT X times. That way you’re not being pushed into mashing Holy Fire multiple times before you can do any other types of damage. Alternatively, it is also an on-GCD ability that does nothing when activated, it could also be its own damage button that just strikes the enemy instantly or a passive.
With the removal of Shadow Mend this drastically undercuts the value of talenting into Shadow Covenant, particularly in a 5 man environment. Discipline has few Shadow spells to properly work into the Shadow Covenant window, it is ANOTHER active spell to add into the mix AND there is no spammable Shadow spell like Mind Sear available and now there is no spammable Shadow heal like Shadow Mend anymore.
Would recommend Shadow Covenant treats Flash Heal like it does Divine Star and changes Flash Heal into Shadow Mend to offer a spammable heal option to increase the spec’s pure healing efficiency in a 5 - man. 5 man output seems to be the biggest issue facing Discipline at present and I talk more about it in the other sections below.
Glad to see Evangelism planned to be moved up a row, however I must strongly suggest that Lenience is given a look for potential replacement. This talent does not do enough to support Discipline’s atonement healing in a 5 man environment where the spec historically has struggled. Too frequently is Discipline forced into Shadow Mend (now Flash Heal) spam in order to bail out of emergencies in lieu of being able to utilize Atonement healing effectively on its own. These new talents are a perfect opportunity to add an independent variable to tune 5 man Atonement output without risk of affecting Raid output.
Expiation and Torment could also be good potential tuning knobs to look into to increase 5 man Atonement output without impacting raid too critically, especially considering the existing target cap on Torment. Mana becomes a severe problem for the spec when you are forced into Flash Heal/Shadow Mend spam to bounce back from heavy hits to your party because Atonement output on its own can not do the job.
Answered Prayers is just frankly not a strong talent option in a 5 man environment and has better competition (at the moment) for a raiding environment. Single Target output is IMMENSELY powerful in Holy Priest’s talent tree which feels satisfying and synergistic, particularly in the capstones.
However, this also strikingly demonstrates the lack of diverse tools in the final talent capstone area. This capstone area only has direct buffs to Single Target output and none specifically towards Prayer of Healing/Sanctify/Circle of Healing playstyles, making it more likely (at the moment) that another expansion of PURE single target healing will dominate Holy Priest gameplay. Divine Image, Divine Word (another GCD’d ability which does nothing on activation), Answered Prayers and other talents can and should be looked at to provide more specific synergy for an AoE style to counter the power of the single target capstones.
Thank you for your time.
This is some good stuff. Possibly some insane scaling potential but that’s fine, numbers can always be tuned.
Small thing to note is that Flash Heal is no longer removing you from Shadow Form on the beta with today’s update.
now new , two patches ago it was stated but was bugged at first, it worked for the last iteration, along with all other holy spells
This time around people seem happy. Before, it was oh my negativity all around.
Shadow mend removal in my eyes is good due to the fact that now is a little less in terms of button bloat.
Shadow Mend doesn’t need to be a talent. It can exist as a Glyph to Flash Heal or Shadow Covenant could turn Flash Heal into Shadow Mend for the duration.
Speaking of glyphs. Shadow ravens?