That’s what I did on the PTR and it felt sooooo good! I have no idea if it’s good dps wise, but gameplay wise I love it!
I just wish Dark Ascension was instant cast like typical dps cooldowns are.
That’s what I did on the PTR and it felt sooooo good! I have no idea if it’s good dps wise, but gameplay wise I love it!
I just wish Dark Ascension was instant cast like typical dps cooldowns are.
I think just like what we did in 6.0. We only need to use quicken mind spike to enhance our mind blast. And the other time we can use new talent Mind Flay:insanity as a filling skill. But this is only for single target…For aoe, there is a lot problem can’t be solved, especially lack of insanity…
And you are right, voidform is aoe cd now if they donot tune it again and dark ascension will be a better choice in single target.
This morning I wanted to take some time to talk about Mind Spike returning as a spell and where it fits into our rotation and kit. Specifically lets go over the recent changes and how that plays into this spell:
Mind Spike – No longer removes damage over time effects. Critical Strike chance bonus to Mind Blast moved to Mind Melt.
In a previous post I made a note asking what the purpose of Mind Spike was clearing DoTs, if we only ever end up using it with Surge of Darkness procs. This change certainly solves part of that problem since now you can freely cast Mind Spike without any downsides. The main question now comes in with how should this spell be used versus Mind Flay?
Making it no longer remove DoTs as a baseline puts it in a tricky situation where the player now has to know when to cast Mind Spike over Mind Flay, which will be dependent on talent choices and tuning. Tuning aside, it seems realistic to assume if you are talenting into the Mind Flay buffing talents like Mind Flay: Insanity, Monomania, or Mental Decay that Mind Flay will continue to be your filler spell. On the other side if you talent into Mind Melt, Whispers of the Damned, Mastermind, etc. these buffs could bring Mind Spike over edge of Mind Flay. The core issue I have with this is this is 100% a sim problem. Where after a certain amount of talents buffing them you will change which one becomes your filler depending on the situation. Having this be purely a math/sims question as opposed to a rotational one does not seem interesting to me. I would prefer a talent tree design or talent design in general that was clearer about when and where you want to use each filler.
Today, we’re shining some light on decisions we’ve made for Priests over the past few weeks for Dragonflight. First, we want to share thoughts on how things are shaping up overall and then go into some specific spells that we’re reading feedback about.
Number of Active Spells
We agree. Priests have too many active spells. While we think there will be more to assess as the expansion plays out, the first spell that comes to mind is Shadow Mend feeling unnecessary with Flash Heal being available to all Priests. Instead of Shadow Mend as a talent that overrides Flash Heal, we are working towards removing the spell. We realize that losing a secondary healing school lockout may not sit well with Discipline Priests in PvP, but we’re happy with this direction overall. While no plans are in place right now, we’re also discussing Mindgames and Power Word: Life as contributing to the number of active spells for Priests.
Overall, we feel the class tree is in a good spot. As mentioned above, there are too many active spells and we’re looking to pull back on that. For Shadow, the Class tree has shaped out well. We’re less happy about how many nodes can feel mandatory for Holy and Discipline and this is something we’ll be looking to improve over time.
We will continue to monitor feedback surrounding the changes we’ve made to Renew and Power Word: Shield for Dragonflight. Currently, we do not have plans to change this and think it is playing well.
Historically Discipline has revolved heavily around Penance. We want to allow for builds that are centered around Penance, but also open opportunities for other spells in the Discipline toolkit to shine if invested into, such as Smite and Power Word: Shield. We look forward to your feedback on if this is felt with the tree, tuning aside.
For Shadow Covenant, we’re looking to take away the downsides so that it encourages Shadow spells but doesn’t discourage Holy spells. Shadow Covenant has gone through a lot of change, but we’re hoping this is a step in the right direction.
Lightweaver is our alternative design to Flash Concentration. Weaving between Flash Heal and Heal is fun, but wound up feeling like a maintenance buff. We believe having a back-and-forth between the spells with stacks to improve situational usability is a better direction for single-target focused builds.
When it comes to X’anshi (now known as Restitution), we are excited to keep the effect around for Holy Priests. We were uncertain of where this should belong in the tree, but after more deliberation decided it was best competing with the more powerful talents, so it has been moved to row 10 of the tree. We know adding this in was not desirable for PvP players. While we have no plans to disable the effect in PvP, we are discussing ways to tone down its effect in PvP so that the Priest is in more danger after resurrecting. This node also competes with two charges of Holy Word: Serenity, so they will be giving up valuable throughput for the effect.
Now that the tree has been in front of players for a couple weeks, we are reasonably happy with what we have, with room to grow in the future. Our initial thoughts on Voidform being optional is something we stand by. How to accomplish this while continuing to support Voidform and improve its gameplay is a challenge we want to continue to discuss and work on. Currently, we’re happy with where we’ve landed with Void Eruption competing with Dark Ascension so there’s not too many cooldown spells. With that said, Dark Ascension is visually exciting, but we feel it is currently lacking in identity. We’re discussing changes like Dark Ascension being more rotationally transformative while active or having a different cooldown than Void Eruption, so that its use cases over Void Eruption are more clear. We don’t have plans to make major changes to either spell for Dragonflight launch, but they will be on our radar for the future.
Mind Spike and Mind Flay coexisting is something we’re going to try but are wary of. Shadow has many spells to press rotationally, and this isn’t helping that. At the same time, being able to build your own Shadow Priest was a goal with this iteration and we believe the tree allows for that.
We understand that Holy and Discipline are the two specs without access to an interrupt, either baseline or in a talent tree. We also realize Shadow has Silence in their tree which adds to the number of non-throughput nodes in their tree. With that said, we are not adding Silence to the Priest class tree. Having access to an interrupt is not something we view as necessary for all specializations. In PvP, Holy and Discipline already provide valuable control to their team and additionally having Silence would provide more control than we’re comfortable with. This is especially true with how much control is becoming available across all classes in Dragonflight.
Vault of Heavens
This was discussed early on with this iteration with the intent to add it as a choice against Leap of Faith. Upon further consideration, Vault of Heavens is almost always more useful than Leap of Faith. But Leap of Faith is one of the more fun interactions in WoW. It changes your perspective on the battlefield. You’re always ready to react to save someone. And of course, it has some clever uses to get your friends killed. If we allow for the choice, the choice is clear, or we’d have to nerf Vault of Heavens down to something that won’t feel very powerful. The fantasy of the Priest leaping to their target doesn’t match our expectations for a Priest either, so we instead separated Body and Soul from Angelic Feather for a little extra movement support and kept Leap of Faith as a standalone.
This spell was deliberately removed in Dragonflight. Powerful spells being removed can cause frustration; however, the amount of control available across all classes in Dragonflight is causing concern. On top of this, the prevalence of knockbacks is already increasing in Dragonflight PvP and knockbacks can be the most influential control effect on arena or battleground maps with verticality.
We’ve read feedback about a desire for the return of Spectral Guise. We discussed the ability early on and decided against it, and our stance has not changed. We do not want Priests entering stealth especially in PvP, as it removes the Priest from the target and focus frame and occurs frequently. Hunters, Rogues, and Mages already do this often enough.
In its current form as a disorient we don’t think it is very compelling as a replacement to Psychic Scream besides preventing movement during the effect. What we anticipate is desired is the AoE stun version of the spell, but we are not planning to bring that forward. We pulled back on AoE stun duration and availability some time ago and decided against adding this one back so that we wouldn’t find ourselves in the same situation we were in the past. If everyone has an AoE stun, then it’s not going to feel special to have one in the first place.
For similar reasons as Silence, we will not be adding Dispersion to the Priest class tree. Healing Priests are understandably on the weaker side of the defensive spectrum, but our answer to that isn’t to bring Dispersion to the class tree. Between Desperate Prayer, Power Word: Shield, Angelic Bulwark, Translucent Image, and Spell Warding, we feel Priests are in an okay spot. We’ve also increased the damage reduction effect from Translucent Image to 10% and separated Phantasm from it.
Looking forward to your feedback!
Seems to me like you’ve designed Priest utility with only PvP in mind with zero regard for PvE desirability.
Sure our kit may be overloaded for PvP, but is it healthy that we offer basically no value in group-based PvE content?
Holy Priest Feedback on the 9/13/2022 update:
(The beta isn’t updated with the new build, but I had the PTR client installed anyway)
Holy Priest Tree:
Thank you for moving Empyreal Blaze up higher in the tree and buffing Burning Vehemence to actually be impactful because it was kind of pointless to have cast time reductions when you could fire off instant casts all the time. It is much easier to budget in these abilities into an M+ focused DPS build. You can also take it in a raid build without much consequence.
The only suggestion I have is also moving up Searing Light higher in the tree branching off of Empyreal Blaze. It is an awkward position to take as you have to take either a renew talent or PoM related ones to take.
It also makes little sense why I have to take a dps talent if I want to branch down a healing path so I can get Miracle Worker or Restitution.
Thank you for moving Apotheosis/Holy Word Salvation higher up in the tree. That was my #1 issue with the previous iteration with the tree. Either way: here’s my feedback.
Either way: I will say this update was a nice change. Moving up Holy Word Salvation/Apotheosis actually makes it so you can make meaningful choices on the bottom of the tree instead of having to pigeon hole yourself into one bottom tree.
I do need to point out a major issue though regarding Holy Word Salvation:
General Priest Tree (Holy Priest Feedback):
Not really much to add here.
Any word on greater fade? You mention you’re pulling back on control and defensives but we’re seeing an explosion of gap closers across all melee specs. Outlaw rogue currently has access to grapple and shadowstep as a quick example.
Keeping with PvP talents for the moment, the number of talents that explicitly reference or impact voidform is concerning, given it is no longer the focal point of the spec. Some retooling needs to happen there to make sure shadow still has compelling options for PvP when not playing voidform.
The silence and dispersion comments make sense, and there’s nothing inherently wrong with leaving both things in the spec tree as long as pathing into them essentially ‘free’. The problem is that’s not the case, and shadow will with the current design always be left in a position where it’s choosing between damage buffs and it’s most powerful personal utility.
This comment might feel a little premature but it’s beginning to feel like your solution to ‘Classes have too much access to XYZ’ is to take XYZ away from priest.
I would still like to see a very basic interrupt in the Class tree (not Silence) purely for the benefit of M+ utility. As someone who does not engage with PVP, this just comes across as superficial inequality and a huge oversight for M+ compositional diversity, especially for the more casual players and groups that would benefit from the additional interrupt most.
In this post I want to go over feedback related to the changes posted to PTR recently, outlined here.
With these changes and others I didn’t call out I think this tree is looking incredible. There are a few things I’d still like to see iterated on or changed, but largely I’m happy with the tree overall.
Having access to an interrupt is not something we view as necessary for all specializations.
If this is your stance, then why is Priest the only specialization that has this mentality? I get the thought but in practice it feels like priests are being left out rather than you saying it isn’t necessary.
Before I go any further I just want to comment that I’m happy to see the tree continued to be changed and iterated on. While I don’t think the tree is perfect I think we are heading in a good direction and I’m excited to see what comes next.
Aside from the changes we did see in this build, I wanted to highlight things that still are points of frustration within the community around the tree.
So holy and disc are losing shining force so Resto shaman can get thunderstorm?
Thank you for providing an update
As a Holy Priest player I agree on this issue. We have the most amount of heal + damage buttons on our bar and trying to squeeze in Mind Blast, Mind Games, Shadow Mend, and Power Word Life is a bit too much. Also, you have active abilities like Empyreal Blaze & Divine Word to budget in as well on-top of Apotheosis being actually budgetable now.
Shadow Mend is made entirely redundant by abilities like Lightweaver which makes your Heal do more than Shadow Mend. Holy Word Serenity basically does what Power Word Life does without the 35% hp bar restriction.
I like the approach, but the issue is regarding the math. You get 1 charge of Lightweaver per Flash Heal so if you do 30 casts a minute it’s 15 casts of Flash Heal and 15 casts of Heal.
The way this worked before was you built up your 5 charges of Flash Heal then every 20s you casted another Flash Heal. So overall you’re casting Flash Heal probably twice as much as you did before which leads to a higher mana consumption rate. I’m just afraid without Fae Guardians we’re going to be OOMing super fast if we play Lightweaver in a raid healing environment.
Talents like Crisis Management offering a +15% crit chance offset the loss of HPS since you’re using Flash Heal more often than you did before which does less healing than Heal.
I would prefer it be 1 Flash Heal = 2 charges because it gets a little bit finger tangling to be going Flash Heal, Heal, Flash Heal, Heal, etc. constantly. My mind starts mixing thing things up.
Moving it all the way to the bottom pushes it out of the budget of most Holy Priest players. Where it was before was perfect before you could go Guardian Spirit → Xanshi → Divine Hymn.
Abilities like Lightweaver, Divine Word, etc. are much more important and powerful for raid and dungeon healing than putting a talent into a once a 10 minute self revive.
I understand it’s mainly for PvP balance and I honestly would prefer X’anshi NOT work in arenas.
This really isn’t an apple to oranges situation. You deliberately added an interrupt to every single healer ingame except for Priests when I felt like there was no need to do that.
So from a utility standpoint it’s a bit of an awkward situation when Paladins, Monks, Druids, Evokers, and Shamans all have 15-45s interrupts and Priests have none.
If you want a fair playing field than remove all the interrupts except for Shamans and maybe Evokers.
I honestly was hoping Vault of Heavens would make a come back. It was loads of fun for BG flag carrying.
Leap of Faith is really a one trick pony that rarely gets used in raids. I can see myself using Vault of Heavens way more often to simply save myself.
I don’t really have any complaints about this. I prefer Void Tendrils over Shining Force.
I’m fine with not having Dispersion on a Holy Priest. We have enough buttons as is.
What we want is an actual defensive that can reduce incoming damage. I was pushing keys in Season 3 and once we got to +25s on Tyrannical weeks I was getting smashed in one hit for my whole hp bar by some boss abilities because Guardian Spirit and Desperate Prayer were both on cd and -10% reduction from the Fade conduit wasn’t helping.
A -20% damage reduction for 8s would go miles to help with this issue. Priest survivability in higher keys has been an issue since BFA. I remember doing +25s in BFA and getting obliterated by boss mechanics as well.
In this post it is frequently mentioned about PvP balance when it comes to utility and design but no where in here is PvE utility discussed or highlighted. It feels like this post is lacking perspective on the challenges Priests face in PvE content when it comes to utility and is pushing those issues aside just to make balancing PvP easier. If the reasoning for spells not coming back is just PvP focused I get not wanting to rock the boat, but there needs to be some effort on the PvE side to make up for that.
Shadow Priest still has nothing they bring to a group aside from Silence and Dispersion over Holy/Discipline Priests in terms of utility. A kick and a defensive is something that every ranged DPS has in terms of PvE viability, where is the flavor of it feeling good to have a Shadow Priest in your Mythic+ group or your Raid group?
Yet you gave hunters an AoE stun last week…? Looks like you’re just improvising on the spot to give excuses.
You are taking it away from priests, giving it to hunters and then tell people who main priests “Too bad too many people already have an AoE stun, you can’t have one”
I’m VERY grateful to see a feedback post. Thank you and hope this is an indication of more class and spec feedback in the future!
This wouldn’t be as big an issue if you applied this philosophy equally across the board. Most melee specs seem to fly under the radar when you do these types of prunes, however.
Edit: I don’t want to be overwhelmingly negative, so I want to add that I appreciate the long post on the team’s thought process for the work being done to the priest talent trees. I may not agree with all the changes, but the dialog is great.
I would agree with what’s presented here, and with some small pathing adjustments (such as moving Unfurling Darkness for example from the center path of the tree) as well as addressing the impact of the bottom capstone section of the tree, I think we’re headed in a reasonably good direction, with a heavy caveat around the disappointing planned timing of said changes around Dark Ascension and Void Eruption.
One major question I have right now is around how Shadow is meant to play on large AOE pulls (10+ targets). In Shadowlands, Shadow had a pretty straightforward approach of slamming cooldowns and spamming Mind Sear and Searing Nightmare, but in Dragonflight our options for hitting a large amount of targets at the same time are extremely limited (Mind Sear, Idol of N’zoth).
I would ask that you consider revisiting target caps on existing effects (Dark Void, and Shadowflame Prism for example) to allow for Shadow to evenly deal damage to a large group of enemies simultaneously outside of just Mind Sear. Even changing Shadowflame Prism to a root-scaling ability after 5 targets would go a long way in addressing this particular pain point of mine.
The recent update just feels like we’re going to be an afterthought again, to be honest, and that still feels bad.
“Other classes do this, so priest shouldn’t.” I don’t understand that reasoning. All the other healers feel like they bring so much more utility to the table while they also have more mobility. Could it not be made that some things are less effective in PvP so we can have something else to look forward to for PvE?
Dark Ascension was added to the beta 2 weeks ago. To be told now that it is lacking identity and that Void Eruption is not transformative enough and there isn’t plans to make these changes for launch is extremely disheartening. Initial feedback we gave on the Priest tree months ago was delayed for a long time only for this to happen to Shadow again for the 3rd expansion in a row makes me extremely sad and frustrated.
If Dark Ascension is causing problems and can’t be finished properly I would rather see it removed from the tree entirely. The visual is the coolest part of it and this could easily just be a glyph added into the game that changes how Voidform looks rather than sacrificing Shadow Priest gameplay just because we got too close to the launch of the game.
And my biggest fear of two different playstyles cannibalizing one-another (and my biggest argument against the return of Legion/BFA Voidform as a playstyle; so we got Dark Ascension instead) because the rework would inevitably be too close to the start of the upcoming expansion has been made real.
Moreover, the sheer amount of frustration I have about the class losing out on so much necessary utility in an expansion where more classes are getting more utility than ever before, especially in the name of a game mode I’ve never enjoyed even when I had to engage with it for stuff like Conflict and Strife, is immense.