Feedback: Paladins

In Development Midnight Beta Test
1

This thread is dedicated to leaving feedback on Paladins in Midnight. Look in this thread and in the Midnight Alpha Development Notes for adjustments and bugfixes made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

Apex Talents

Many Apex Talents are available for playtesting and may be selected using specialization tree points in the final specialization tree node. The current User interface (UI) is temporary for playtesting purposes and will be replaced with a final UI later in development. As with any test cycle, we will be adding more Apex Talents to the test over time and not all will be available with the start of the alpha test.

To help us refine Apex Talents, please consider the following questions as you playtest:

  • How gameplay-impacting, exciting, and fantasy forward is your Apex Talent to you?
  • Are your Apex Talents and new Hero Talents meeting the approachability goals laid out in our Combat for Everyone in Midnight article?
  • Are there cases you would consider not selecting your Apex talent?
  • Does the Apex talent disproportionally favor a particular talent build or Hero Talent tree?

For feedback regarding the changes on making the combat system more approachable for players of all skill levels, leave your feedback in the Combat Approachability feedback thread.

Thank You

We greatly appreciate all your feedback and are very excited for you to test out all the changes in Midnight!

1 Like
2

Holy

Holy Paladin’s updates are focused on removing various inconsequential healing sources and cutting secondary tracking buffs. We are also reducing the amount of mid-range cooldowns they have access to as we felt there were a few too many in that space and making sure Aura Mastery is a satisfying and impactful button press instead. Light of Dawn is also getting an update to its targeting, now being a circular radius around the paladin rather than a frontal cone. Getting the perfect angle for Light of Dawn could sometimes be difficult, and we don’t feel like it matched our combat approachability goals.

Protection

We’re addressing some pain points Protection Paladin has been experiencing at the start of combat with competing priorities and abilities clashing. Protection Paladins were subject to significant pressure and tension between defensive abilities, Holy Power generation, generating and maintaining threat, and an immediate need to place Consecration. We are also aiming to streamline by paring back on the number of layers of short-duration or low-impact defensive abilities in order to concentrate power into fewer moving parts.

Retribution

As we head into Midnight, we’re taking a close look at a couple of things such as how Retribution Paladin generates Holy Power, the amount of spells needed to cast for setup, the Hero Talent balance and the design of the third gate in the spec tree.

Currently, we feel the choices in the 3rd gate are too limiting, forcing players to pick between single-target and AoE effectiveness with little flexibility. To address this, we’re redesigning some abilities while removing some others. The most impactful change here happening with Execution Sentence and Final Reckoning. In Midnight, we’ve decided to combine these two abilities into one powerful ability that is useful both in AoE and in single target situations.

For Holy Power generation, we’re looking into the amount of passive over time effects. A key focus here is Crusading Strikes. While it has served Retribution very well in some areas, over time it has become an invisible, passive Holy Power generator that’s difficult to track and lacks meaningful interaction. We’re shifting emphasis toward Templar Strikes. Another important change will be coming to Divine Resonance, with the aim of giving players more agency and clarity in their Holy Power generation.

Going back to the amount of spell casts, one change we would like to address is Divine Hammer. We know many enjoyed its interactions with the Templar Hero Talents. But on the other hand, many found it stressful to manage on top of other abilities such as Execution Sentence. In Midnight, with approachability in mind, we decided to find a different place for Divine Hammer inside the Templar Hero Talent tree as a key AoE component. This change will allow us to be more flexible with the tuning of Empyrean Hammers and Hammer of Light and find a healthier balance between Herald of the Sun and Templar Hero talent trees.

We’re also exploring ways to make Art of War and Righteous Cause feel more impactful and distinct, while shifting more power back into Holy Power spenders like Final Verdict and Divine Storm to reinforce their importance in the rotation.

4 Likes
5

Valiant Crusade is a nice way to give Shield of the Righteous coverage when moving between pulls without turning Divine Steed into a rotational defensive ability since it only works outside of combat, but that also means it reintroduces the gameplay issues Rogues are escaping from where it’s important there be a period where combat is dropped between pulls that often has issues with things like affix entities keeping the group in combat long after fighting stops.

I don’t really have a solution to it, just want to point out the potential bad incentive where a protection paladin may not want to use their movement ability running to the next pack because they are waiting for combat to drop. As well as the possibility of a paladin who planned to make use of this talent feeling sabotaged if a group-mate accidentally/intentionally pulls and starts combat before they use Divine Steed.

13 Likes
6

General

  • Can we please have a way to track holy power/mana split from the unit frame. It’s very disorienting to go from having this information displayed separately from health and more centralized in the screen to being off to the side. (This is pretty universally applicable to any classes/specs that use power and resources.)

Holy
1.) It’s still early in testing but as it stands Holy Light is still egregiously expensive relative to our other spells and it’s hard to find a use case for it that leaves us with mana to play the game. This makes it a very difficult spell to want to use given the mana implications when the spec is already pretty starved for mana with high CPM (casts per minute) of Holy Shock especially when used in conjunction with Beacon of Virtue which now has an increased mana cost again. As it stands you could remove Holy Light from the toolkit entirely and no one would notice.

2.) There’s currently something weird going on with Hammer of Wrath on the Alpha build where Hammer of Wrath is critting for well over 100,000 damage when using Awakening paired with Avenging Crusader. I suspect this may be due to some multiplying aura with the spell now stemming from Judgment. I’m not sure if this is causing it to double dip on multipliers but it’s clearly not intentional as the damage from it is very abnormal. Edit: This appears to have been addressed after the most recent build on 10/8/2025.

3.) There’s currently no way to keep track of Infusion of Light through the CD manager, this is a pretty important buff to keep track of so it would be nice to see it added. Generally speaking the most effective way would be to just allow players to enter the name of spells/buffs/items into the CD manager to track vs them need to be added/curated by the development team constantly.

8 Likes
7

General Feedback for Ret Paladin

Class Side:
Class plays fairly smoothly. It’s tough to test the merge of Judgment and Hammer of Wrath because currently it only changes the animation of Judgment rather than increases the damage.

Reworking divine resonance is kinda neat. I do actually like the fact we have full autonomy over our holy power generation now rather than tracking when we are about to send out a resonance judgment.

Class side capstone talents seem like they could be strong (Looking at you 10% damage reduction). However subjectively they aren’t very exciting and all perform some sort of similar defensive effect. I don’t think the class capstone talents necessarily have to have big “wow” effects but just in terms of being capstone talents they all serve a relatively similar function.

Ret Side:
The removal of modifiers feels like a welcome change. Certain things feel like they haven’t caught up to the rebalance though. Hammer of Light feels very weak in comparison to 11.2. It no longer has Blessing of Dawn, Final Reckoning, or its previous set bonus buffing its damage. It also has a vestigial 35% PvP nerf making it hit lower than a Final Verdict with current tuning in PvP.

Templar Slash: I really want this talent to work, it is currently unclear based on tooltip if this button is eventually meant to be a single press two strike two holy power generator or function similar to 11.2 just without the expiration of the Templar Slash charge.

I would love to play with it functioning as a single press two strike ability just to see how it would feel. Perhaps there could be a choice node between how it currently functions on the Alpha and this option?

Judgment/ Hammer of wrath loss:
Currently its difficult to get a feel for how the loss of Hammer of wrath feels because the updated Hammer of wrath changes do not currently work.

Art of War/ Blade of Justice/ Capstone Feedback:
The Final Light within talent giving blade of justice an extra wave of damage is pretty cool. However it feels like this talent and the first Apex talent increasing Blade of Justice’s damage on art of war are the exact same thing just one has an animation and the other doesn’t. I would be in favor of perhaps taking another looking at the first Light Within apex talent and changing it to something else. Perhaps something affecting Templar Slash? Maybe on proc provides Templar Slash with some range or additional effect? There arnt many talents on the Ret side that focus on Templar Slash.

Rotation Feel:
Hitting a target dummy, dueling, and leveling from 80-81 so far feels pretty fluid. Everything feels like it’s serving a purpose in the rotation. If I had one critique it would be that Templar Slash still feels like it could use a little spark. The 10/8 iteration on the Light Within Apex talent with the art of war blade of justice light wave blast functionality feels better than the week 1 inception.

Hero Talents:
Herald:
The first, second, and fourth columns of the Herald of the Sun Hero talents feel fantastic. With the removal of Hammer of Wrath out of the core rotation perhaps the 3rd column of Herald feels a bit undesirable and could use a second look.

Templar:
Hammer of Light feels undertuned due to removed modifiers and set bonuses. Lights Deliverance stack time once again feels pretty slow.
Perhaps somewhere in the Templar tree could be a talent that modifies Templar Slash?
Divine Hammer seems a little redundant, hammers swirling dealing AoE damage around your character is pretty much the exact same thing as Shake the heavens empyrean hammers. Maybe Divine Hammer could do something along the lines of “When you press divine toll your shake the heavens temporarily increases the speed at which hammers fall” or have something similar to that on a choice node with the current iteration of Divine Hammer.
(Just my opinion but I’m not someone who likes the look of aoe hammers swirling around so it would be cool to have a choice node with a passive or something without the visual or CC breaking aoe).
The return of a shadowlands style ringing clarity is really cool. Going to need to be really careful with the tuning of this paired with the new divine resonance, or to clarify if the divine resonance judgments will also be modified by this effect.

8 Likes
8

Since abilities like Avenging Wrath now show buff up-time on the spell icon, when using the cooldown manager, I’d like if Consecration was usable there too. I find tracking buffs on the individual spell icon to be really nice (that’s how I have my retail weak auras set up, including Consecration)

2 Likes
9

This is feedback I wanna echo. The tooltip makes it sound like it becomes a one charge, strikes twice, button but currently it functions like retail which basically you press it twice. I am kinda hoping the tooltip is right and the ability just isn’t functioning yet because I like the sounds of how the tooltip describes it.

Crusader Strike loses a charge but now strikes twice.

Templar Strike slashes an enemy for (100% of Attack Power) Radiant damage and gets followed up by Templar Slash that deals (115% of Attack Power) Radiant damage. Templar Slash always critically strikes.

Really hoping it’s just NYI and that it’s not the tooltip being misleading.

Aside from echoing this feedback, Ret is feeling really solid but self healing feels kinda on the low end of things. I noticed this with Enhancement Shaman also so I am assuming its just needing a tuning pass -or- that self healing is getting a big nerf from live? Perhaps the squish has had some impact?

3 Likes
10

Hello, I’m here to ask

Do we think Holy Paladin is growing or in a rework rut?

Abstract:
Holy Paladin core identity as a mobile frontline healer is changing. Some changes are remarkable, while others miss the mark. Contributing Factors:

  • Crusader strike removed, untethering from melee
  • Is Aura mastery compelling?
  • Was Removing Infusion of Light’s crit synergy copacetic? Peer review remarks include “buff drought”, “missing flow”.

Practical:
Holy Paladin success is tightly tied to generating holy power in 3, 2, or 1 spell cast to be rewarded a strong heal or lightly triage close allies. How this is framed is crucial when comparing to other healer throughput delivery.

When holy paladin cadets join the ranks to play this specialization, it’s quickly shaped by their first combat encounters (often at range). Some immediate learnings -

  • Holy power leads to cheap powerful spells
  • Holy Light is expensive
  • Holy Shock is rewarding to press and quickly becomes a priority spell
  • Flash of Light is fast, cheap, weak, but consistently makes holy power.

As skills evolve, they notice aura-mastery, mastery, blessings, and beacons in their kits. Standing out from priest, holy power generation creates a 1-2-3-POP gameplay feel that gets better with practice.

So reader, I ask this early on so by the end we may be closer to the answer.
-Do we think Holy Paladin is growing or in a rework rut?

1 Crusader Strike Removed
Untethering from melee adds flexible positioning.

  • Does shield of the righteous contradict this move away from melee? Now Holy Shock’s cooldown is reduced by two effects, still rewarding bold melee holy paladins. Is this intentional?
  • With trading away crusader strike for flexible positioning, success now dramatically depends on the new Light of Dawn overcoming a long history of disappointment and must provide raid wide support comparable to other healers.
  • If Light of Dawn doesn’t satisfy then what will? Failure to provide groupwide support on the level that priest accomplishes means this change will be a net loss. Changes like Seraphic barrier give me confidence raid-wide help is being tuned with intent.
  • Specific synergies with Infusion of Light, Light smith, Hammer and Anvil, Avenging Crusader, Blessed Assurance, Lightforged Blessing, Shield of the Righteous Cooldown Reduction of Crusader Strike, Crusader’s Might, Imbued Infusions, Shining Righteousness, Empyrean Legacy and Truth Prevails have all propped up Melee Holy Paladin to be the front liner that stood apart from other healers, and stood as a sister playstyle to Fist Weaver and Atonement. Featuring heavy holy power churn, and trickling heals out consistently with nearly no consequence for mobility.

2 Is Aura mastery compelling?

  • Aura mastery is 2:30 to 3 minutes long between uses. Most fights may see 1 - 2 uses of this spell as a method to prevent 12% damage for 8 seconds. ( 1:30 minute CD when optimized for PVP, preventing interrupts, 24% damage reduction, or granting 60% sprint for up to 40 mounted players )
  • Holy paladins have a hard time with heavy sustained raid triage or sudden raid-wide recovery. Aura mastery is strong, but what response will bring health back? Casting Avenging Wrath, Beacon of Virtue, Divine Toll, managing Rising Sunlight and refilling power for Word of Glory casts. Does that sound a bit more involved than pressing Divine Hymn, Holy Word: Sanctify, Healing Tide Totem, Tranquility, or Wild Growth?
  • Remember, churning holy power leads to recovery, with crusader strike gone, holy power generation now has 1 less instant spell to fit into the flow. In the past, if you were brave enough to press up to fight you were rewarded.
  • Aura mastery’s talent Ringing of the Heavens is convenient, granting a free cast of Divine Toll. Despite the 3-minute wait, refilling holy power and enhancing Holy Shock can help you recover and prepare a support response.
  • The current design of Aura Mastery is only a complementary preventative spell, not a recovery spell. It’s up to the paladin to have good holy power handling to recover a team.
  • When the devs state their goal is to making aura mastery more compelling, would they add more flavors? Improved uptime or experiment with raid wide recovery spells? What do you think?

3 Removing Infusion of Light’s crit synergy copacetic? Peer review remarks include “buff drought”, “missing flow”. Did it make room for other effects or miss the mark?

  • This required talent enabled economic use of Holy Light, instant Flash of Light, and added value to Judgment’s damage reduction. - Additionally, this helps with reducing the cooldown of Holy Shock, and for Light Smith grant more uses of Bulwark / Holy Weapons to buff or protect teammates.
  • What’s strange is despite ramping down # of procs, and departing from crit, several talents have been overlooked and continue to depend on or thrive with critical strike rating.
  1. Healing with Holy Light, Flash of Light, Holy Shock gains 20% more healing when it critically strikes.
  2. Word of Glory and Light of Dawn crit more often on low hp teammates.
  3. Judgment critical strikes heals the group, grants free charged up Light of Dawn on next Word of Glory cast
  4. Holy Light, flash of light critical strikes grants free resets of Hammer of Wrath which shields teammates
  • Question is, was minimizing economic holy lights, instant flash of lights, and stronger judgments intentional? As this feature fell, did another rise or does this feel like Holy Paladin was given a limp buff

So, does it fulfil goals for simplicity, theme and direct tangible results? Is melee holy paladin better or departing?

Comment below

Do we think Holy Paladin is growing or in a rework rut?

12 Likes
11

New animation for Hammer of Wrath is really cool. Hammer of Wrath is still not doing any more damage than judgment though so its tough to test out how the actual ability will feel rotationally.

Still hoping we can eventually get to see the Templar Strikes update or at least clarification on if its supposed to be a single press two strike ability like the new tooltip reads or if its going to remain as is in its alpha state.

Personally would love it if it was a one press double strike, two holy power ability.

On a non Ret side note please give holy crusader strike and rebuke back </3

7 Likes
12

Bugs:

Hammer of Wrath continues to not function (deals same damage as Judgment.)

Still hoping for Templar Strike/Slash to become a 1 button press two strike ability. (That or a tooltip change. Saying Crusading Strike loses a charge is weird because technically it does not with the way it currently plays.)

Divine Resonance is causing the 3 following judgments to throw twice and the tooltip reads 300% damage increase, then 200% damage increase, then 100% damage increase except its actually not increasing the damage to any of the judgments each throw. It also does not interact with Templar’s Divine Exaction or Hammer of Wrath.

Divine Toll is granting a charge of Divine Purpose as Ret Herald.

Ret/ General Feedback:

With the loss of the extra holy power from Boundless Judgment I’m curious why its on a choice node with improved Judgment. I feel like it would make more sense to have Improved Judgment on a choice node with improved Blade of Justice and return the extra holy power to Boundless Judgment and make it a choice node with Holy Blade and remove the 50% mastery proc chance from Boundless Judgment and rebalance the mastery.

Let people choose if they want their 2 holy power generator to come from Blade or Judge. Currently the most efficient way to play seems to be from having the single charge of holy power generated from each ability.

Walk Into the Light seems like a partly wasted talent because as Herald you should Judgment, Blade of Justice, Wake of Ashes (which generates a divine purpose too) wasting the 2 holy power gained from the ability. I suppose it could see some play as the 1min wings build but if the DF Ret rework has shown anything as long as radiant glory is in play 1min wings is unlikely to be played.

Luminosity, Sun Sear, and Second Sunrise all need a second look due to the removal of hammer of wrath as a rotational ability. You will have far less access to hammer of wrath than previously so it seems like they should get buffs or reworks.

PvP Feedback:

Hammer of Light needs significant PvP buffs still, with the removal of the 11.2 tierset, blessing of dawn, and final reckoning modifiers and the addition of the middle Light Within apex talent it does roughly the same damage as a final verdict. I think the current PvP modifier is -35%?

All PvP talents except for Sanctuary and Spellwarding are in need of a significant revamp now.

5 Likes
13

Feedback from testing dungeons with followers in Midnight Alpha on Holy Paladin:

I feel like none of my abilities are very satisfying to press. There were many times where I felt the follower tank had stronger heals with their flash heal than my paladin did. I realize part of this might come down to gear balancing vs how the followers are balanced, but the majority of abilities from Beacons to Flash Heal and even the new Light of Dawn felt like they weren’t really having any kind of impact on the healthbars.

I also don’t really like that I am basically being forced to take a shield instead of an off-hand/libram due to Shield of the Righteous not working unless you have one equipped. It’s going to make coming by these items in loot tables harder as we roll against tanks for them, but it also is just restricting to the class fantasy. (Paladins flip through a book to revive people, but can’t really have one equipped to stay efficient?)

11 Likes
14

Hammer of Wrath continues to not deal any increased damage over judgment and is purely a visual change at the moment.

Ideally I’d really like to play with it as a functioning spell to really get a feel if it becoming a merged passive effect into judgment feels good or not. Can we please get a functioning version to test :folded_hands:. We will also need confirmation on if it will function with divine toll and its related talents.

Thank you!

2 Likes
15

Bug: If you have 50 stacks of lights deliverance, Wake of Ashes off cooldown, and a divine purpose proc and then you press execution sentence with judge, jury, executioner talented your free cast of Hammer of light will incorrectly account for 1 of the 2 refunded holy power spells following execution sentence.

1 Like
16

Proximity mastery for holy paladin,

please let this be the year it’s something else or the team doubles down x3 Fold on the Aura theme.

IT feels holy shock theme with an Aura sprinkle. If Paladin wants AURA, it’s gotta catch the eye, like you know how druid starfall shines, you can’t miss it.

If you were a paladin and truly your aura is the one you’re managing, making a difference, then why not an aura tracker like Lucio from overwatch. Aura Mastery could use a level up to visually project that value of what’s happening on screen.

and remarkable references to draw on for stupendous cool down moments as a healer are

  1. Ultimate Penitence for disc priest as you lift up in the air and shower bolts everywhere
  2. Ancient of Lore from restoration druid’s pvp talents, the transformation is epic
  3. Shaman’s Ascendance
    I could go on,

I fully expect if Aura Mastery is going to be portrayed as a compelling spell, I fully petition it needs the *WOW FACTOR ON SCREEN* to match. Pulsing rune under your feet, ‘,: \ ?

I would lose my mind if The Lion’s Roar trinket effect would come into the Paladin kit. There’s inspiration from Heroes of the Storm’s Ultimate spells with Anduin’s moveset. It doesn’t even need to be original, reuse tranquility channeling while moving, but make it shields instead. I’m not playing it safe when I belt these ideas out because I firmly believe to be proud of your work and pride needs fireworks!! - Aura Mastery 2026 - Shine Bright

5 Likes
17

General Feedback:

As always, I greatly appreciate the time and effort the development team invests into Paladins. However, the ongoing lack of clear class fantasy and identity continues to make the [Paladin Class] feel somewhat unfinished, and lacking coherent direction.

Class Feedback:

Issue 1: Lack of Class Fantasy

Feedback:

  • The current Paladin class fantasy appears to be a blend of various design concepts accumulated over the years, resulting in a somewhat fragmented identity. Certain talents within the trees also seem to lack thematic or mechanical cohesion, which can lead to player confusion and a diminished sense of class identity.

  • Class Fantasy in the sense of Auras, Blessings, Seals, Divine Steed(Crusaders) vs Pursuit of Justice(Lawbringers) and Anti-Evil does not feel stressed as the foundation of the Class Talent Tree.

Issue 2: Lack of Rule of Cool

Feedback:

  • The Paladin Class, and each spec, really feel like they lack that Fun, Silly, World of Warcraft Rule of Cool. Something that’s added to the class despite balance (atm) and just given to players because at its core, WoW is a video game, not a spread sheet. :slight_smile:

  • Example:

    • Class: Any improvements to Divine Steed or Wings (Wings of Liberty, etc)
    • Class: “Fun” Spells such as Roots, Knockbacks, Vortexs, Mind Controls, Ice Walls, etc
    • Class: Ability to use a 2H + Shield (Titans Grip)
    • Prot: Ability to use a Warglavie (More class/weapon combos)
    • Holy: Ability to use a 2H + Off-Hand (Libram - Titans Grip)
    • Ret: Ability to Xmog a Cloak into a Shield (Single Minded Fury Xmog)
Issue 3: Too Many Class Talents - Not enough Fantasy (For Midnight’s Approachability)

Feedback:

  • The Paladin Class Tree feels like it has too many talents, and the ones we do have, again do not emphasize that core Class Fantasy very well.

  • In addition, the Talents not having a more distinct indicator for value feels pretty bad. Like having Gold vs Silver frames.

  • Just being honest, anything above 40 Talents just feels like too much, for right now.

The 25 “Mandatory” Talents I want: (These talent frames would be “Gold”)

  1. Auras

  2. LoH

  3. Hammer of Wrath

  4. Blessing of Freedom

  5. Unbound / Echoing

  6. Divine Steed

  7. Cavalier

  8. Cleanse

  9. Blessing of Sac

  10. Recompense

  11. Blessing of Protection

  12. Blinding Light

  13. Rebuke

  14. Sanctified Plates

  15. Light’s Revocation

  16. Unbreakable Spirit

  17. Divine Purpose

  18. Greater Judgement

  19. Healing Hands/Tirion’s Devotion vs Selfless Healer

  20. Empyreal Ward

  21. Golden Path vs Lightforged Blessing

  22. Holy Ritual

  23. Blessed Calling

  24. Sacrifice of the Just Merged with Improved Blessing of Protection

  25. Lightbearer (Redesigned into an Aura Upgrade)

The 15 “Optional” Talents I want: (These talent frames would be “Silver”)

  1. Turn Evil

  2. Wrench Evil / Stand Against Evil

  3. A Just Reward (Redesigned into Salvation Aura)

  4. Fear no Evil

  5. Inspired Guard

  6. Eye for an Eye

  7. Stoicism

  8. Holy Reprieve

  9. Divine Reach

  10. Consecrated Ground

  11. Brought to Light

  12. Divine Spurs

  13. Light’s Countenance

  14. Punishment

  15. Afterimage vs Faith’s Armor

Talents to Replace or Remove:

  1. Divine Toll

    • Redesigned or Moved to Specs - more on this later

  2. Seal of Might

    • This is not a “Seal” - Continuity between different versions of WoW.

  3. Vengeful Wrath

  4. Blessing of Dusk

    • This is not a “Blessing” - Continuity between Blessings, this is confusing.

  5. Blessing of Dawn

    • This is not a “Blessing” - Continuity between Blessings, this is confusing.

  6. Lead the Charge

  7. Obduracy

  8. Holy Aegis

(This includes Blessing of An’she (HotS) as this is not a “Blessing”)

Class Talents Feedback:

Issue 4: Auras Updated with more Approachability

Feedback:

  • Auras in WoW feel like an iconic Paladin Fantasy/Ability, but it quickly feels like Paladins are moving back to getting these pruned. =/

  • Auras would be nice to have visuals.

  • All Auras should have 3% Damage Reduction, again for Approachability Reasons.

  • It would be nice if we had Devo Aura, Concentration Aura, Crusader Aura, and Salvation Aura with 3% DR, and another slight raid buff, with it being magnified on the Paladin. This would lead into Aura Mastery being more diverse and interesting.

Example:

  • Lead the Charge removed.
  • Crusader Aura Redesigned.

  • Crusader Aura

    • Reduces all damage taken by 3% and increases Mounted Movement Speed while out of Combat by 20% for all allies within 40 yards.

    • In addition, the Paladin’s Faith is bolstered, causing your Divine Steed to reduce the cooldown of 4 nearby ally’s major movement ability by 3.0 sec when cast.

Issue 5: Blessings should be “Blessings” - Approachability, Continuity and Understanding

Feedback:

  • Blessings have felt a lot better since the revamps, but lack continuity throughout the Class, which can be confusing.

  • Blessings should be short duration, castable buffs so that it’s consistent, and understandable for new players.

  • It would be nice to have Blessing of Might, Wisdom, Kings, etc. back.

  • While Blessing of Seasons was poorly named, losing it on Holy loses a lot of that Class Fantasy and talent synergy.

    • Blessing of Protection

    • Blessing of Freedom

    • Blessing of Sacrifice

    • Blessing of An’She (HotS) ??

    • Blessing of Dusk ??

    • Blessing of Dawn ??

Are these meant to be castable buffs? Spells you can cast on yourself and allies, cause that greatly changes the feedback of these abilities. I’d love to have Blessing of Dusk as a castable buff
.

Situations like this make it really hard to understand the design intent for the Class. =/

Issue 6: Seals should be “Seals” - Continuity throughout the different Versions of WoW

Feedback:

  • Ever since the Talent Tree revamp in DF, “Seals” have felt like place holder talents within the trees.

  • Seals don’t feel like that rich, classic Paladin Fantasy you see on WoW:Classic, and lack that continuity throughout each version of WoW.

  • I know that Seals aren’t the most interesting gameplay mechanic, but why name talents:

    • Seal of Might

    • Seal of Templar

    • Seal of Charity

    • Seal of Reprisal

  • This comes off as a lack of creativity and it would be nice to see Seals return in a better, more iconic fantasy driven design. =/

Mastery Stat as Seals, a Seal per Hero Spec, etc
.

Issue 7: Divine Toll is Not a Fun/Good Ability and it Lacks Clarity (For Midnight’s Approachability)

Feedback:

  • Divine Toll was a fine Shadowlands Covenant ability, but since coming into the Paladin Class Tree, it has felt extremely underwhelming.
  • Divine Toll (Holy) is not informative to the Player. It random casts Holy Shock on multiple allies or enemies, and gives you 1-5 Holy Power. It’s confusing.
  • Divine Toll (Ret) is extremely underwhelming and looks extremely similar to Judgement + Blessed Champion. It still doesn’t interact with AW, and HoW, (from current testing) and just feels lame.
  • Divine Toll (Prot) is a much better talent, but could easily move into the Prot Tree.

Divine Toll, as a stand alone ability, also isn’t very informative. “Summon Demonic Tyrant, Summon Inferno, etc..” are all Summons, but you know what you’re going to get. The spell names and their icons inform the Warlock more distinctly than Divine Toll, again for that Midnight Approachability.

Issue 8: Hammer of Wrath replacing Judgement during AW

Feedback:

  • Personally, I’m not a huge fan of this. It feels like the wrong kind of pruning and there’s really no good answer as to why Judgement is replaced with Hammer of Wrath instead of say, Judgement of Justice/Wisdom/Light.
  • It doesn’t feel like the question of “Why?” was asked. =/
  • Why is [Hammer of Wrath] applying the “Judgement” debuff, the “Judgement Buff”, the “Judgement of Justice” debuff, etc

  • What is there to make Hammer of Wrath feel important or different during AW, what makes it stand out?

I understand Judgement and Hammer of Wrath felt more or less like the same button, but this does feel like a missed opportunity to make Hammer of Wrath feel more like Necrolord’s Hammer, in place of something like Divine Toll for example.

That AW + Hammer of Wrath important cooldown doesn’t feel brought back, and this feels more swept under the rug. :frowning:

Issue 9: Mobility Package of Paladins doesn’t feel reinforced

Feedback:

  • The fantasy of Paladins felt like it’s changed quite a bit throughout WoW’s life span, which has left Paladins feeling like there’s different identities competing for mobility.

  • Divine Steed

  • Cavalier

  • Divine Spurs

  • Lead the Charge

  • Steed of Liberty

  • Blessing of Freedom

  • Unbound Freedom/Echoing

  • Blessed Calling

  • Consecrated Ground

  • Obduracy

  • Judgement of Justice (Ret)

  • Jurisdiction (Ret)

  • Will of the Dawn (HotS)

    Divine Steed does not feel fun, not compared to Death Charge, at least. And again, there’s really no Rule of Cool for Paladins.

    It would just be nice to get the mobility flushed out a bit better and double down’d on
 better talent choices or identity because it just feels inconsistent.

    What is our Death Grip, Heroic Leap, Roll, Shadow Step, etc?
    Are we Crusaders vs Lawbringers vs whatever?

Retribution Paladin Feedback:

Issue 10: Lack of Rule of Cool

Feedback:

  • Again, just want to make note that Retribution seems to lack something new and exciting in Midnight.
  • The change to ES is nice, but its just missing that “WoW Factor.”
  • Retribution lost a lot of potential for a Fire/Burn build and a lot of customization, which doesn’t feel great. =/
Issue 11: Inconsistent Spec Fantasy - There’s no Retribution in the Retribution Tree

Feedback:

  • Something that other classes seem to be getting in Midnight is a bit of a refresh to their abilities, or a double downing on their Fantasy. Unholy DK, Surv Hunter and Void Priest come to mind.

  • Retribution Paladins feel kindof stuck between a few fantasies, and it just doesn’t feel as good as it could/should.

    Templar’s Verdict / Final Verdict
    Templar Slash
    Templar Strike
    (Why is my Templar dealing Radiant Sword Damage? lol)

    Judgement
    Divine Storm
    Hammer of Justice

    Hammer of Wrath
    Hammer of Light
    Execution Sentence

    Blade of Justice
    Wake of Ashes

Are we Retribution Paladins? Are we Templars? Are we Crusaders? Are we Lawbringers? Are we Hammerdins? Are we Anti-Evil/Undead?

There feels like no consistent running theme, and that Classic World of Warcraft Paladin of Exorcism, Holy Wrath, Blessing of Kings, etc
 seems long forgotten?

Look at Devourers, and Void (Shadow) Priests, what’s the fantasy trying to be established for New Players because this feels inconsistent.

Issue 12: Talent Tree layout - Important Talents don’t feel Centralized (Approachability)

Feedback:

  • The Retribution Tree layout feels really bad in comparison to like 99% of the other specs in the game.
  • Important talents such as AW, WoA, Final Verdict, and Jurisdiction, do not feel centralized in the middle of the tree.
  • Splitting Avenging Wrath from other Avenging Wrath modifying talents feels bad. It’s hard to remember back to a unconnected talent with brain rot. :slight_smile:
  • WoA feels more optional now than ever, given the fact that the Apex Talents are on that same row. This feels bad.

It would be nice for higher valued talents to be in the Core of the Tree, adding a bit more consistency throughout the game.

Issue 13: Apex Talents - These all feel bad, and a bit disjointed.

Feedback:

Are there cases you would consider not selecting your Apex talent?

  • PvP and perhaps fights with a lot of movement, if I don’t have the uptime to proc Art of War, then yea
.

How gameplay-impacting, exciting, and fantasy forward is your Apex Talent to you?

  • Honestly, it’s not really Exciting or Fantasy Forward at all.

Art of War increases the damage of your next BoJ by 150%

  • This isn’t super exciting, and BoJ already does enough with Expurgation, Art of War, Holy Power generation, and Blade of Vengeance.

Avenging Wrath grants you Art of War.

  • Am I supposed to get an Auto-Attack timer for this to ensure I don’t hit AW/WoA before I chance an Art of War Proc? =/
  • Isn’t AW doing a lot already, do I need to devalue HoW even more with all the other stuff going on?

Avenging Wrath further increases the damage of Templar’s Verdict and Divine Storm by 10%.

  • This feels disjointed
 aren’t these Apex Talents supposed to double down on one thing? Why put this emphasize on AW, TV, and DS?

Art of War further empowers Blade of Justice to unleash a wave of Holy Energy


  • This just feels like a better visual for Blade of Vengeance.
  • And again, feels a bit out of place with all the other Retribution Visuals of Hammers, Swords, Holy Fire, etc

Issue 14: Jurisdiction - Ability Ranges and Approachability

Feedback:

  • The range on Retribution’s abilities still seem a bit too scattered and inconsistent.
  • WoA being 14 yds., Divine Storm being 8-10yds?, BoJ and TV being 12/20, Judgement being 30, Auto-Attack, Interrupt, and now Templar Strike being melee, etc


The range on Ret’s abilities feel like they need a refresh, especially with this new importance of Templar Strike, Art of War Procs, etc


The movement speed and snares of Paladins could also take a secondary look. :smiley:

Casual Ret Feedback:

Major Problem:

  • I was excited to get 3 more Class Talent Points to use on things I couldn’t get in TWW, like Cleanse, Turn Evil, etc
 then Blizzard goes ahead and puts 3 (old Ret) new Class Talents in. Completely negating that feeling from TWW → Midnight.
  • Guided Prayer, SoV, and Fear No Evil being new talents, makes it feel like nothings changing from TWW.
  • The Class Talent Tree feels so bloated, it’s unfun.

Minor Problems:

  • From the testing that I’ve been able to do, it just feels like TWW Ret Paladin. Not much more to really say.
  • ES/FR change is great.
  • I’ve never been a fan of Improved Blade of Justice and Templar Strike/Slash, as I feel they preform the same role
.
  • So, not reimaging Templar’s Strike/Slash feels bad, but it is what it is.
  • WoA proc’ing Wings, (tuning pending) which then proc’s Hero Talents, Apex Talents, and Empyrean Legacy feels a bit too much. AW Procing everything alone feels too much, but yea.
  • Divine Hammer + Hammer of Light not replacing WoA as a new 2-Part Combo attack, especially with Templar Strike/Slash doing the same thing, feels like a wasted opportunity.
  • Divine Hammer + Empyrean Hammers (+everything AW does) feels a bit too much, too similar, and isn’t a good representation of that classic ARPG Hammerdin, imo.
  • Templar’s Just feels like its trying to do too much.
  • HotS doesn’t do a great job of emphasizing the Holy Fire fantasy, compared to like FrostFire Mages.
  • Lot of HotS talents that emphasized Hammer of Wrath may need to be updated/buffed.
  • Overall lack of Holy Fire, Exorcism, Holy Wrath, etc
 is kindof lame.

Feels like a lot of Spec’s double down’d on their fantasy or did a slight refresh, but Ret Paladins lost quite a bit of theirs. Removing a lot of the “dead talents” helped simplify the spec even more, but the Class does continue to feel like a lot of unpolished ideas, IMHO.

(Ret PvP Talents feel a bit too mandatory, and could use a refresh, or PvP talents should increase to 5. 2 Static Passives, and 3 (out of like 6) Optional - Castable Abilities.)

Holy Paladin Feedback:

Issue 15: Lack of Rule of Cool, Spec Fantasy and Identity - Midnight Approachability

Feedback:

  • Again, the Paladin Class, and Holy in particular, really lack that “Rule of Cool” fantasy.
  • In addition, there’s no emphasis on Blessings like Totems, no identity of dealing damage like Disc, or shifting forms like Druids.
  • No utility like Roots, Vortexes, Knock Backs, Life Grips, etc


If I was new to WoW and Holy Paladins, I feel like I would have no idea what exactly I was supposed to do to heal. Am I supposed to spam FoL to build Holy Power to hit SotR, etc.

I hope more is in store for Hpal, cause currently there’s just nothing of value here. :frowning:

Issue 16: Poor Layout of the Holy Talent Tree - Important but Subtle, Hard-to-Discover Talent Interactions

Feedback:

  • There’s a lot of spell interactions for Holy Paladins, and spell modifiers, that feel scattered throughout the trees.

    Hammer of Wrath

  • Hammer of Wrath (Class Talent) / Vengeful Wrath (Class Talent) / Veneration (Holy Talent) / Avenging Crusader

    Avenging Crusader empowers Judgement to Hammer of Wrath, but the tooltip still says Judgement.

    Flash of Light

  • Selfess Healer (Class Talent) / Veneration / Infusion of Light / Moment of Compassion / Divine Revelations / Awestruck

    Holy Light

  • Veneration / Awestruck / Divine Overload / Resplendent Light

    Avenging Wrath

  • Hammer of Wrath / Vengeful Wrath / Avenging Wrath / Seek Deliverance / Fear no Evil / etc


While the Holy Tree can feel simplistic, a lot of the talents feel stretched out and scattered because that lack of secondary fantasy and identity.

Example:

  • Divine Glimpse → Empyrean Legacy → Unending Light → Breaking Dawn

Too a new player, this could seem like a fun and interesting LoD Raid Build, but trying to discover this with the current talent tree layout seems pretty rough.

Similar to Ret, the Talent Tree needs a refresh where the AW/Aura Mastery/etc
 is placed in the middle. Again, like 99% of the other specs in the game. :smiley:

Issue 17: Redundant Talent Effects

Feedback:

  • I’m not sure if this is a Midnight issue, or just because Hpal seems to be in a bit of a rough spot atm, but there’s a lot of redundancies in Holy Paladins that make it seem like “What’s the point?”

Example:

  • Holy Shock, Judgement, Infusion of Light, and Glorious Dawn

  • Holy Shock = Instantly Heal a target for X.

    Infusion of Light - Procs off Holy Shock

  • Causes your next FoL to Instantly Heal a target for X.

  • Causes your next Judgement to Instantly Prevent X Damage.

    Glorious Dawn - Procs off Holy Shock

  • Causes you to reset Holy Shock

  • 
.which then is cast to Instantly Heal a target for X.

And then when added with Judgement’s CDR, etc
 it’s not this interesting diverse gameplay loop, like resetting Holy Words, but just makes me question why I don’t have 5 charges of Holy Shock.

All these talents, and their interactions are just preforming the same thing – instantly heal a target for X.

Same for the “does XYZ, the lower the health your target is.”

Issue 18: Spells and their Visuals are not informative - Midnight Approachability

Feedback:

This is in part tied to the lacking Class Tree, but the Holy Paladin abilities are not informative what so ever.

  • Divine Toll has a poor visualization, and it is very unclear who was struck by Holy Shock, or how much HP you will generate.
  • Auras have no visualization.
  • Aura Mastery has a poor visualization.
  • Aura Mastery + Ringing of the Heavens has a poor visualization.
  • Avenging Wrath vs Avenging Crusader has no distinct visualization.
  • Holy Prism has a poor visualization.
  • Holy Armaments (Lightsmith) has a poor visualization.
  • Holy Armaments (Lightsmith) have too similar of Spell Icons, it’s hard to distinguish which ability is up, compared to something like Blessing of Seasons. (Colors)
Issue 19: Removing Crusader Strike is the Bad Kind of Pruning

Feedback:

  • Not having Crusader Strike, even as just a melee button to press, feels like the bad kind of pruning.
  • Crusader Strike doesn’t have to generate Holy Power, doesn’t have to do that much damage, but all Paladins should have Crusader Strike in their Spell Book.

Please put Crusader Strike back in the spell book.

Casual Holy Feedback:

Obviously it will be easier in a week or so to give better feedback for Holy Paladins, but right now this spec just feels like the skeleton of a design.

Is it a good, fun, approachable, visually pleasing and rewarding Melee Healer? No.

Is it a good, fun, approachable, visually pleasing and rewarding Caster Healer? Also, no.

  1. The Class Fantasy feels bad.
  2. Not having Crusader Strike and more Melee tools feels bad.
  3. Divine Toll feels bad and like it’s clashing with LoH for our “Nature’s Swiftness” spell.
  4. BoSac and BoP feel too niche, like it’s eating up too much of our Utility Budget.
    • These feel more like Healing Cooldowns, than utility spells to aid my team in more diverse situations.

Maybe the goal is to get Holy Paladins back to being a heavy defensive cooldown rotating healer
with BoP and Sac, etc
 but when that’s how you feel like that’s how Hpal *heals. It removes those abilities from feeling like extra utility. *:smiley:

Main Issues:

  • Holy Shock being used offensively and defensively.
  • Holy Power being used on SotR offensively, and WoG defensively.
  • BoSac, BoP, and LoH feeling more like mandatory healing cooldowns, rather than utility spells.

The Spec feels stretched too thin, and you don’t know which part of your DPS vs HPS gameplay is going to take a hit.

17 Likes
18

I like many of the changes to Retribution but I have some criticisms (mostly from a PVE perspective)

  • Retribution talent tree does not have enough talent nodes. There are only 16 possible talent points to spend after the 1st gate, and only 12 possible talent points to fill out after the 2nd gate, so you aren’t choosing what you want but more choosing what you dont want.
  • Compounding the problem with having too few talents is that many talents feel too weak and are not very interesting. Sanctify, Burning Crusade, Holy Flames, Rush of Light all feel like filler talents. These would be acceptable talents if they led to something more interesting.
  • It feels wrong that I can skip the [Improved Blade of Justice/Holy Blade] and [Righteous Cause/Art of War] choice nodes in the first section, but I can’t skip the [Swift Justice/Light of Justice] choice node. It feels like BOJ reset should be a core mechanic and not something you can opt out of taking rather than reducing the cooldown on some abilities.
  • Zealot’s Fervor is far less interesting without Crusading Strikes
2 Likes
19

Prot (Templar):

Associating Hammer of Light to Divine Toll feels bad. On live, I can hit Tyr’s on CD to get the dps, threat, absorb, etc from Hammer of Light and it feels good to do. I don’t lose out by using Tyr on CD as its just extra mitigation. On Beta, it feels bad having to Divine Toll on CD in the same manner just to get Hammer of Light. This is a button that is useful to hold on to for an AOE interupt or emergency interupt when rebuke and Avenger’s shield are both on CD. If Tyr cannot come back, I would suggest tying Hammer of Light to something else that doesn’t feel bad to hit on CD, something with less utility than Divine Toll.

6 Likes
20

I really only play Holy and Prot paladin. I’m not a ret enjoyer. I think Prot is alright, but yeah I’m just disappointed with Holy and I think you hit the mark on everything. I really liked the Avenging Crusader melee build for Holy. Like yeah, I’m a healer, but I’m also a warrior of light. Losing Crusader strike just sucks, and there’s zero reason for losing it. This was an ability that wasn’t really hurting anything and it’s removal just garners the question “Why???”

I’m also really big on classes having fantasy and specs having solid unique identifiers. Holy priests are all about those holy words. Disc priest is “attuned” to attunement, Resto Shaman has their totems, Resto Druid has those HoTs, and Preservation has
 Well I don’t actually know much about preservation but I’m sure it’s going something working for it.

Holy Paladin’s “fantasy” aspects are just really weak. Auras are rather unforgettable imo. Our blessings, like you mentioned, feel like mandatory healing CDs, not utility. Our beacons are cool, but that’s really it.

Losing Blessing of the Seasons also makes me pretty sad too. I get it wasn’t exactly the most reliable of spells due to it’s rotational nature, It was a cool one and helped invoke some of that old Paladin blessing fantasy. I wanted to see Blessing of the seasons actually broken up into multiple blessing spells you get if you grab the talent. Not just be pruned entirely.

To be honest, at this point I’d just prefer they give us back Glimmer again.

5 Likes
22

Ret Beta Bugs (11/12/25)

Class Tree:

  1. Hammer of Wrath damage is identical to Judgment.
  2. Vengeful Wrath does not increase Hammer of Wrath (or judgment) damage as health decreases.
  3. Divine Toll as Herald of the Sun incorrectly generates a charge of Divine Purpose.
  4. Divine Toll as Templar incorrectly consumes a charge of Divine Purpose (if active).
  5. Divine Resonance (perhaps correctly) does not interact with Divine Exaction.
  6. Fear No Evil does not work (at least in PvP duels).

Herald Tree:

  1. Dawnlight tooltip now states that after Wake of Ashes your next 6 Holy Power spending abilities will apply a Dawnlight; however in practice it is still only 2.
  2. Avenging Wrath and Radiant Glory no longer apply any Dawnlights. (Perhaps intentional because of the additional 4 Dawnlights from Wake of Ashes but not mentioned?)
  3. Solar Grace is currently providing 5% haste in addition to its old effect still being active.
  4. Blessing of An’She does not increase Hammer of Wrath damage. (Perhaps because Hammer of Wrath is not functioning at all aside from the visual update?)

Templar Tree:

  1. Divine Toll consumes a Divine Purpose proc.
  2. Perhaps this will only apply to prepatch but the 11.2 4-set bonus when paired with a free Light’s Deliverance proc of Hammer of Light will occasionally (but noticeably) consume a refund of Holy Power with Judge, Jury, Executioner.
  3. If you gain a 50 stack of Light’s Deliverance while having an available Hammer of Light already and wait ~12 seconds you lose the free aspect of the Light’s Deliverance proc. I’m fairly certain this is also active on live as well.

Ret Tree:

  1. When selecting Crusade the number of stacks are no longer tracked on the Buff tooltip. You now need to hover over the icon to see the number of active stacks unlike live.

General Feedback:

Ret feels pretty good to play on beta but feedback from weeks prior remain the same. I’m really reserving judgment (no pun intended) for the judgment and Hammer of Wrath merge. Currently Hammer of Wrath not functioning with any of its class or hero related talents makes it really tough to get a feel for how the priority of the rotation and the strength of the talents will pan out. I want to say it will feel good but I really don’t know for sure. It would make the most sense if when it was active Hammer of Wrath became the highest prio Holy Power generator but we would likely see everyone play the double Judgment talent (which already feels the best since the removal of Unbound).

Templar Strike/Slash becoming a one button press two strike, two holy power generator is still highly requested.

PvP talents are in need of a massive revamp. Ret currently has only really one useful talent (Blessing of Sanctuary) and two situational talent (Blessing of Spellwarding and Hallowed Ground). You will never take Spellbreaker because Spellwarding and Hallowed Ground are superior in the situations you would need to take talents to fight casters. Taking Searing Glare is now really difficult because it replaces Blind and with the removal of several CCs from many classes you will likely need all the CC you can get in PvP.

Luminescence, Ultimate Retribution, Spreading the Word, Shining Revelation, and Spellbreaker are all utterly useless/ not impactful. Since inception both Ultimate Retribution and Shining Revelation have seen 0 situations where they would be usable in PvP. There was even a whole patch where you couldn’t even use Ultimate Retribution because its original function with retribution aura didn’t work because the ability was removed. Please consider a rework to the majority of Ret PvP talents. Ret used to have fantastic PvP talents from Legion through Dragonflight.

5 Likes
23

Holy Feedback:

  1. Rotationally feels clunky. There are some dead zones in the rotation where I am just filling with FoL or HL. If Shock is my main healing or dpsing builder, then having only 2 charges that are a mid-range CD without a significant amount of haste feels clunky.

  2. I enjoy the idea of absorbs, but class fantasy wise I use to think that was Disc Priest.

  3. Going down either 2 routes would make the class fantasy better with the rotation:

    a) Melee sword and board healer (melee disc). “Avenging Crusader” who heals their party by smiting evil.

    b) Caster based. Big chonky heals with ways to reduce mana/casting time. I use to think that H Pal was the single target master (tank healer), but that has been taken over by other classes

  4. 10% Chance on Infusion of Light seems “low”. Going 15-20 seconds worth of globals without a proc feels bleh

  5. Our Mastery is based on proximity, and SotR is melee range only, but every other ability is ranged. So being in ranged makes SotR a dead skill, and reduces our mastery. Seems counter intuitive. Give us Denounce as a PVE talent, or make it more beneficial to be in melee range.

9 Likes