[Feedback] Paladins

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In no particular order, just things that have felt bad still on Paladins.

General

  • Lack of a Class Unique Feature and the “Rule of Cool.” (No Unique weapons, Stances, Totems, Forms, Pets, etc…)

    • From the RPG aspect of it, there seems to be this lack of “Holy” in the current Warcraft Holy Warrior design right now.

    • Looking at the future World Soul Saga, it’s hard to get excited for that content when the baseline Paladin still feels very underwhelming in terms of Class Fantasy.

      • Auras aren’t really a thing anymore.
      • Greater Blessings aren’t really a thing anymore.
      • Seals aren’t really a thing anymore.
      • Anti Undead/Demons aren’t really a thing anymore.
  • No New Race/Class combinations.
    • Kul Tiran
    • Night Elf
    • Highmountain
    • Lesser: Undead, Troll, Vupera, Worgen, Void Elf (High Elf)
  • Lack of Updated Visuals for few spells.
    • Charger (Human and Blood Elf Mount)
    • Argent Charger
    • Argent Warhorse
    • An added Glyph for the Fallen Charger (Shadowlands)
    • Auras
    • Consecration
    • All Blessings
    • Divine Toll
    • Aura Mastery (Holy)
    • Guardian of Ancients Kings (Prot)
    • Searing Light (Ret)
  • Forbearance feels like an outdated mechanic.
    • Very frustrating in PvP and Mythic+ with multiple Paladins and having other allies having the ability to lock you out of your own personal abilities.

Class Tree

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Class Utility

  • Single Target utility vs AoE utility feels outdated. The game has shifted more and more to AoE utility and Paladins have not kept up.
    • Blessing of Seasons, Blessing of Sacrifice, Blessing of Protection, Word of Glory, Lay on Hands, Cleanse, etc…
    • It’s not that the ST utility is bad, just bad there is no choices.
  • No alternative to Blessing of Sacrifice for group utility
  • No Group utility in Spec tree for Movement, Knocks Backs, Knock Downs, Grips, etc…
  • Blessing of Protection’s Cooldown feels too long
  • Improved Blessing of Protection feels too underwhelming.
  • Unbound Freedom/Echoing Blessing detached from BoF in the Class Tree.
  • Unbound Freedom would be nice to have an auto cast on the closest ally, unless already having one targeted. (Similar to Augmentation Abilities)

Underwhelming Class Talents

  • Holy can access talents such as Vanguard’s Momentum, Avenging Wrath, and Veneration without taking Hammer of Wrath.
    • These are talents that “see little to no value if another, unconnected talent isn’t taken first.”
  • Golden Path, Seal of Mercy, Strength of Conviction, and Incandescence do not work with Divine Hammer (Ret)
  • Turn Evil having a Casted time and cooldown feels bad.
    • “Lesser Creatures have a chance to be destroyed” feels too low of a chance due to cooldown.
  • Obduracy feels redundant with Sanctified Plates.
  • Holy Aegis feels redundant with Sanctified Plates.
  • Faith’s Armor feels redundant with Sanctified Plates.
  • No Magic DR talent in Class Tree feels bad. (Spellbreaker)
  • Lightforged Blessing feels underwhelming.
  • Incandescence and Touch of Light feel under tuned.
  • Afterimage feels underwhelming for Holy and Prot.
  • Divine Purpose feels underwhelming.

Class Talents that feel bad

  • Fist of Justice being 2 point talent feels bad.
  • Specing into Auras feels bad, as you can only have 1 active at any time.
  • Specing into Auras of Swift Vengeance for Crusader Aura feels like a QoL thing, this feels bad.
  • No alternative to Divine Steed.
  • Three talent investment for Divine Steed still feels bad.
  • No Snare in the Class Tree.
  • Justification and Judgement of Justice(Ret) feel as if they should swap places.
  • Justification as pure throughput talent feels bad.
  • Crusader’s Reprieve does not increase range of SotR by 3 yards, this does not feel like fluid gameplay and can cause the spell to miss when believed to be within range.
  • Seal of the Crusader feels underwhelming for final talents, with little to no value for Holy.
  • Vengeful Wrath feels underwhelming for a final talent.
  • 8/31 talents are invested in pure stat increases, this feels boring.
    • Holy Aegis
    • Sanctified Plates
    • Seal of Might
    • Seal of Alacrity
  • Of Dusk and Dawn and Seal of Order/Fading Light feel boring as cap stone talents.
  • Being able to get all 3 Capstones, and being balanced around that feels pretty bad as it limits our “tough choices.”

While breaking the Paladin revamps into multiple patches was probably necessary, it has felt like the baseline Paladin Class Tree has suffered because of it.

Paladins feel like they lack this uniqueness within the game, and things like Divine Toll don’t come anywhere near being as cool as abilities like The Hunt, Spear of Bastion, or Abomination Limb.

8 Likes

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Ret Paladin:

  • Cap stone talents and talent choices make ST vs AoE too punishing.
  • Scaling feels to be an issue yet to be addressed.
  • CSAA vs Templar Strikes is a choice made too late in the leveling process.
  • Templar Strikes feels undertuned, cooldown feels too short for fluid gameplay.
  • Multiple charges on so many abilities feel like button bloat, lack spell identity, and lacks new player guidance.
    • 2x Crusader Strike
    • 2x Blade of Justice
    • 2x Hammer of Wrath
    • 2x Judgment

All these buttons feel like they do the same thing. Deal X Holy Damage and generate 1 Holy Power.

  • Having two charges of Judgement, two charges of HoW and 20+ yard range on BoJ and TV makes paladins feel like they are encroaching too far into being a caster.
    • While this is convenient in PvE, it’s deceiving in PvP and removes a bit too much of that melee fantasy.
    • Hard issue to solve.
  • Jurisdiction and Crusader’s Reprieve alter ability ranges too much, Ret Paladins can get up to 7 different ranges on all their abilities, from melee range, 5 yards, 8 yards, 10 yards 12 yards, 20 yards, up to 30 yards, this doesn’t feel like fluid gameplay.
  • No alternative to the Vanguard of Justice 4 HP playstyle. (if that is “meta”)
  • Holystrike and Radiant Damage lacks explanation for new players.
  • Expurgation, Penitence, and Burning Crusade feel underwhelming.
  • Vengeful Wrath feels redundant with Avenging Wrath, feels like an underwhelming capstone talent.
  • Blessed Champion and Blade of Vengeance do not have good indicators of cleaving, poor visuals/attack animations for these abilities.
  • Consecrated Ground vs Rush of Light feels like utility vs throughput.
  • Consecrated Ground (Snare) being in the Spec tree feels bad.
  • Judgement of Justice (Snare) being in the Spec tree feels bad.
  • Justicar’s Vengeance vs Final Verdict feels like utility vs throughput.
  • Justicar’s Vengeance and Lightforged Blessing feel like they limit the auto-self healing of Paladins too much compared to other classes when they aren’t “Meta picks.”*
  • Divine Hammer does not benefit from Golden Path, Seal of Mercy, or Strength of Conviction.
  • Adjudication feels underwhelming for the “Blessed Hammerdin” and breaks CC in PvP.
4 Likes

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Holy

  • Weapon restrictions on SotR feels bad, which conflicts with 2handed healing weapons/rewards from the Vault and RPG elements.
  • Holy Light feels outdated.
    • Would be nice if Holy Light’s cast time was reduced, given to all paladins and FoL was just deleted.
  • Holy suffers from ability bloat.
  • Light’s Hammer and Holy Prism will feel obsolete with the removal of the 10.1 tier bonus.
  • Light’s Hammer feels as if it could replace Consecration.
  • Holy Prism, Vanguard’s Momentum, Hammer of Wrath, and Veneration feel as if they could be combined/condense to make a better feeling ability.
    • Necrolord’s Hammer > All 4 of these combined.
    • None of these talents feel great on their own.
  • Tirion’s Devotion feels underwhelming compared to Healing Hands.
  • Blessing of Season’s rotational cooldown feels bad as you’re encouraged to use them on cooldown, no matter the situation. You aren’t using them when you need them.
  • Crusader Strike feels clunky to use due to ability (Holy Shock) bloat and targeting.
    • Crusader Strike as a small cleave may feel better.
  • No alternative to Light of Dawn. (Holy Radiance)
  • Power of the Silver Hand feels underwhelming for the point investments.
  • Breaking Dawn feels underwhelming for the point investments.
  • Merciful Auras feels underwhelming and not a good choice node against Blessing of Seasons due to lack of DPS increase.
  • Avenging Crusader feels underwhelming due to Holy Shock increase in value and charges.
  • Being a melee healer with no snare feels bad.
  • The GCD on SotR has felt pretty bad, the cooldown reduction on Crusader Strike has felt pretty irrelevant due to how many other buttons we have and double charges of Holy Shock.
  • Crusader Strike, Hammer of Wrath, Judgement, SotR and Consecration feel as if there are too many dps buttons. Would feel nice to have Consecration work similar to Ret, and put SotR back off the GCD.
  • Blessing of Autumn/Seal of Order reduces the cooldown of Divine Toll 5 seconds faster than Wings and Daybreak, desyncing these abilities, which is annoying because it snowballs in longer fights.
  • Awakening Procs give Judgement a 100% Crit chance and too proc Wings, this is counterintuitive to Veneration’s interaction of Judgement Crits reset the cooldown of Hammer of Wrath.
    • Majority of the time, you won’t have HoW on cooldown when you cast Judgement to activate Wings-- which allows you to then cast HoW.
    • It’s a backwards interaction that doesn’t feel as smooth as it could.
  • Avenging Crusader’s buff to CS and Judgement feel a bit under tuned cause you still prioritize Holy Shock over those two abilities during AC, due to all the benefits of Glimmer-- only made worse by the upcoming tier bonus.
8 Likes

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Prot

  • Lack of Talent choices.
  • Redundance of talents or talents that feel better in the Class Tree. (Healer/Support talents)
  • Word of Glory mana cost feels too high.
  • Health Pools feel too low.
  • Hand of the Protector feels underwhelming compared to Healing Hands.
  • Tirion’s Devotion feels underwhelming compared to Healing Hands.
  • Seal of Charity in the Spec Tree feels bad.
  • Hand of the Protector in the Spec Tree feels bad.
  • Consecrated Ground being Prot’s only snare feels bad for Mythic+ and mobs that flee.
  • Consecrated Ground (Snare) being in the Spec tree feels bad.
  • Mobility feels too low for a tank.
  • Melee mob control feels too low for a tank.
    • No AoE Stuns
    • No Grips
    • No knock backs, knock downs, CC or roots.
  • Avenger’s Shield not having a talent to generate 1 Holy Power for those who like that Playstyle feels pretty bad.
4 Likes

PvP

General

  • All Paladin PvP talents feel as if they haven’t been updated after the updates.
  • Forbearance feels bad, too punishing compared to other healers/classes.
    • Compare NS and Void Swap vs LoH
  • No anti Undead (DK), Demon (Warlock, DH), or Void (Spriest) mechanics
  • Holy: No new Blessings or Auras
  • No Z-axis movement or influence (Blade’s Edge Mountain, Mugambala)
  • Divine Shield as the Paladin’s immunity and defensive feels bad when more and more healers are gaining immunity buttons.
    • Arch Angel, Tranquility, Communion, Borrow, etc…
  • Divine Shield and Blessing having no dispel protection feels dated, hasn’t kept up with the amount of dispels in game.

Ret

  • Passive self-healing of Ret feels ridiculously low, especially when compared to classes like Lock and Demon Hunter because JV and Lightforged Blessing aren’t really meta pick talents.
  • Talents such as Light’s Celerity feel very undertuned for the GCD, Mana, and cooldown investment.
  • WoG being double taxed in Holy Power and Mana feels bad.
  • Blessing of Sanctuary and Blessing of Spellwarding feel like mandatory talents.
  • Aura of Reckoning takes too long to stack.
  • Hallowed Ground does not work with Divine Hammer.
  • Ultimate Retribution feels dated with the addition of a Battle Rez.
  • Luminescence is underwhelming after the nerfs.
  • Lawbringer feels underwhelming after the nerfs.
  • Judgements of the Pure feels underwhelming after the nerfs.
  • Blessed Champion, Blades of Vengeance and Divine Toll still breaks CC.

Holy

  • WoG being double taxed in Holy Power and Mana feels bad.
  • Paladin feels like the design of “High Risk, High Reward” isn’t hitting it’s mark.
    • Searing Light’s Cast time, Denounce investments, Divine Plea, the rewards just don’t feel good.
  • Searing Glare cast time feels bad as it warns players not to press buttons, defeats the purpose of attempting to “outplay” players most of the time.
  • Blessed Hands feels like a mandatory talent.
  • Spreading the Word feels underwhelming with the length of Blessing cooldowns.
  • Judgements of the Pure feels underwhelming after the nerfs.
  • Judgements of the Pure feels redundant with Cleanse the Weak.
  • Cleanse the Weak feels underwhelming after the nerfs.
  • Divine Plea Healing and Damage reduction feels bad, encourages defensive gameplay.
  • Darkest before the Dawn feels dated.
  • Avenging Light feels dated.
  • Ultimate Sacrifice feels dated.
  • Denounce feels underwhelming with the talent, holy power, and cast time investment.
  • Mana Cost of DPS abilities feels too high and there’s really no way to detach them from Holy Power.
4 Likes

In terms of Holy Design, I know Blizzard probably doesn’t care too much for player designs, but for me it breaks down to pretty much this: (which seems like a lot, but meh) ¯\ _ (ツ)_/¯

Ability Bloat

Holy Shock, Holy Light and Flash of Light

  • Holy Shock’s cooldown needs to be increased, reduced by talents later in the tree.
  • Flash of Light needs to be removed.
    • Having both FoL and Holy Light just feels dated, especially with Holy Power Spenders
  • Holy Light’s cast time reduced by 1 sec.

Consecration, Light’s Hammer and Holy Prism

  • Holy Prism needs to be removed.

  • Light’s Hammer now replaces Consecration, with a 20 sec cooldown.

  • Righteous Judgement replaces Consecration, and now gives your Judgement ability a 100% chance to drop a Consecration at the location.

  • Light’s Hammer and Righteous Judgement now share a choice node.

Vanguard’s Momentum and Empyrean Legacy

  • Empyrean Legacy needs to be removed.
  • Vanguard’s Momentum needs to be redesigned.

Vanguard’s Momentum
20 sec recharge - Replaces Hammer of Wrath
Throws a magical hammer at your target dealing X damage, and empowering your next Word of Glory to automatically trigger Light of Dawn with Y% increased effectiveness.

  • This effect is doubled when used on a mob below 20% health.

Holy Power Spenders

  • Holy Power Spenders have been taken off the GCD.
  • Crusader’s Reprieve now also increases the range of Shield of the Righteousness to 8 yards, in addition to it’s current effects.
  • Light of Dawn needs to be removed as an active ability and shifted to a proc based spell. (See above)
  • New Talent Added: Holy Radiance.

Holy Radiance
3 Holy Power - Instant
Imbues a friendly target with radiant energy, healing that target for X and all allies within 15 yards for Y.

Talent Tree Clean up

  • Tirion’s Devotion needs to be removed
  • Afterimage (Class Talent) needs to be removed.
  • Breaking Dawn needs to be removed.
  • New Talent in Class Tree: Healing Hands has been added to the Class Tree for both Holy and Prot specializations.
  • Unwavering Spirit and Protection of Tyr moved to Tirion’s Devotion’s location in the Holy Tree.
  • Daybreak moved to Unwavering Spirit’s location in the Holy Tree.
  • Rising Sunlight moved to Power of the Silver Hand’s location in the Holy Tree.
  • Beacon of Faith and Beacon of Virtue moved to Breaking Dawn’s Location in the Holy Tree.
  • Power of the Silver Hand then needs to be changed to be more melee centric, along with a few open talent spots for some additional melee healer perks.
  • Avenging Crusader and Sanctified Wrath need to share a choice node.
  • Sanctified Wrath now reduces the cooldown of Holy Shock passively along with it’s current effects.
    • Talents adjusted as needed.
  • Avenging Wrath: Might and Awakening need to share a choice node.
    • Talents adjusted as needed.

So basically it would end up looking like this:

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5 Likes

Avenging Wrath: Might is a talent downgrade.

Ret Paladins have two talents that revolve around Avenging Wrath.

Avenging Wrath (Class Talent) and Avenging Wrath: Might (Ret Talent)

  • Avenging Wrath gives +20% damage and healing, on a 1 min cooldown.
  • Avenging Wrath: Might adds +20% critical strike chance

So effectively this becomes +20/20/20.

However, in the great Ret revamp nerfs, Avenging Wrath: Might got nerfed down to 10% across the board.

This brings this combo down to +10/10/10.

The issue with this is, it was a nerf to Avenging Wrath: Might and not Avenging Wrath (or both) so if you do not spec into Avenging Wrath: Might, you don’t lose that 10% damage and healing.

So this results in Avenging Wrath: Might being a talent downgrade, cause you’re giving up 10% damage and healing for 10% crit and that just feels awful.

**This isn’t much to do with the balance of Ret in pvp, but more so the design of the ability. It’s a talent that feels like you are nerfing yourself.

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Adding talents shouldn’t feel like a downgrade. =/

4 Likes

This has been a world class effort for a bunch of posts blizzard will ignore.

7 Likes

Suggestions, personally I despise SotR, you mentioned bringing back Holy Radiance, why not simply do replacements.

Light of Dawn becomes an offensive skill replacing SotR, 15yd frontal cone attack, definitely a lot easier to use, wouldn’t require a shield, burn targets with blinding holy light.

Holy Radiance then replaces Light of Dawn as our Holy Power healing spender as you mentioned.

Essentially fixes everything, opens up 2h weapons, easier to dps and use Light of Dawn offensively, on theme, visually look infinitely better then SotR as well.

Thoughts?

Edit: Holy Shock and Divine Toll need an animation change, it shouldn’t use the AoE casting animation, I’d love it to use the Holy Light animation with Libram in hand far more better then raising your hand in the air and some how hitting the target.

1 Like

The concern that I would have for this is, the Light of Dawn animation is already heavily tied to being a healing cone, simply taking that animation and tying it to a DPS button seems like something Blizzard would be very unlikely to do.

I do agree that something should be changed with SotR to allow for the 2hander option because it is so core to the Paladin class fantasy. (Outside of the Silverhand xmog) But that needs to come in a new ability, or things like Holy Wrath or Denounce.

Crusader’s Reprieve should increase the range of SotR to match Auto Attacks and Crusader Strike because the ability to use those buttons, especially on Holy, feel very intuitive to being in melee range.

While it isn’t something to notice in general gameplay, you can out range SotR while still being in range for auto attacks and CS.

For me personally I’d like to see the steps of:

  1. SotR no longer requires a shield. (Class Fantasy)
  2. Crusader’s Reprieve increase SotR range.
  3. Denounce/Holy Wrath added as a shared node to Shining Righteousness

Omni Knight in DotA2 has a really cool animation for healing and doing damage. As a reference, something along these lines would be cool for Holy Wrath or some way to make a range AoE DPS ability.

Well I’m suggesting Light of Dawn completely replace SotR, it becomes our new DPS holy word spender, the frontal cone and 15yd range is far superior then SotR and literally eliminates every flaw about using SotR you’ve mentioned, being wasted, out ranging auto attacks, requiring a shield.

But I’m in no way against something like Omni Knights ability working its way into as an offensive spender.

I thought it just would be easier on Blizzard, Holy Radiance already exists and is in game be it in the past but it’s not hard to re use assets.

Holy Radiance be infinitely better as a replacement for Light of Dawns healing as it’s simply a AoE around the player, and yes will get the pesky range players behind us.

Light of Dawn feels like a easy replacement for SotR, already a frontal cone, used in melee proximity, better range, slightly surpasses SotR even if you added Crusaders Reprieve, which baseline Light of Dawn is 15yrds makes it easier to use. The biggest thing making Light of Dawn over SotR is a smooth transition in gameplay essentially it’s used the exact same way so it’s not going to change the flow of how Paladins play in any way. It’s simply just easier.

Great write up, but paladins already had their major rework. Time for feral druids to get the spotlight.

Okay?

I agree that it would be an easy replacement for sure, but personally I don’t really want to lose Light of Dawn as an ability in the Paladin toolkit or the potential of what Light of Dawn could be used for.

I would just rather have it be more of a proc based ability, tied to something like Necrolord’s Hammer from SL. (Though it would be better to have an upgrade to Hammer of Wrath, not a new button.)

The point I wanted to get across was that Holy Radiance has a lot more quality of life features than LoD does, that that would be a nice replacement ability. Holy Radiance could also be macro’d to be self auto cast, if players didn’t want to lose that proximity based healing.

SotR needs a change, no doubt, but that shouldn’t come at the cost of another ability. =/

Paladin is my main, but 95% of all content I do, I do as holy spec, so I’ll only be able to really respond to that post.

Absolutely the case. I know some people want Denounce in PvE, but I won’t even ask Blizzard for that. All they need to do is remove the shield requirement for SotR. They finally made the spell worth casting (with talents) and did it in the same season that they put a great 2-hand healing mace on our dungeon loot tables.

I agree that after the rework, Infused Flash of Lights are all that’s worth pressing, at least in M+. Even in raid HL is super situational and rarely worth the effort.

Agreed. I didn’t use these before the set bonus, and don’t use them now after getting the new season’s set bonus. We have enough buttons for quick/instant heals as it is, and I don’t need prism. We have enough short-cooldown healing throughput tools as it is, so I don’t need Light’s Hammer.

We already have Vanquisher’s Hammer still in the talent tree (Empyrean Legacy) though it’s tied to Judgment and competing with Inflorescence of the Sunwell, so nobody is going to pick it in the current meta. I’m a big fan of Veneration even as it is right now, although with the nerf to Holy Power spenders, I don’t think Vanguard’s Momentum is as valuable/cool as it could be, and having to spend two points in Seal of the Crusader first (lol) especially after we’ve started moving towards more hardcasting is a ridiculous thing for blizzard to ask us to do. Those three points are dead talents for Holy as far as I’m concerned.

It definitely feels bad when the healer’s version of a healing spell is objectively weaker than the dps or tank’s version of the same healing spell.

I feel like Blessing of Seasons could be a very cool ability if they changed it to a charge system rather than a cooldown system. It would still transform into the next spell every time you used it, but if you could accumulate multiple charges, you could save those different blessings up and use them all at once or in short bursts of two or three, depending on the situation. The only fear from a balancing perspective might be possibly using Summer and Autumn on the same target at the same time.

I prefer SotR on the GCD myself (and think it should be adjusted and put on the GCD for Prot as well), but I do agree that Consecration should work the way it does for Retribution. We have an objectively worse talent to kind of make it do that (30% chance on judgment) with the bonus of being able to lay a manual Consecration on top of it, but the chance is low enough, and the cost high enough (1 talent point that could be used elsewhere, plus having to put another talent point into the gimped HolyPrism/Light’s Hammer choice) that it’s become a headache to manage. I would prefer a higher chance to drop it on judgment, even 100% chance like Ret, at the cost of losing our Consecration button.

I responded to your first post before reading your next post about proposed revisions lol.

I could get behind this. I use Holy Light so infrequently in all content that I wouldn’t mind doing away with a long-cast spell completely, or getting rid of FoL and turning HL into FoL. I’m hesitant to put full support behind a longer CD Holy Shock, only because I love Holy Shock and Glimmer so much, but I could imagine it being done well.

This is absolutely perfect from my perspective. Choice to make Consecration a more-or-less fire and forget passive, or a more impactful skill-based cooldown.

Much better than what Vanguard’s is currently, and gives you more control over a rather powerful effect, unlike Empyrean Legacy. I know this might sound kind of counter, since I’d prefer Consecration to be passive on judgment, but I feel like the double-spender effect of EL/Vanquisher’s Hammer is something the typical player would WANT more control over. edit: Forgot to say, I still hate Seal of the Crusader in its current state, especially since post-rework hpals are casting more and hitting things a little less now. Spending two extremely valuable tier-3 talent points in the class tree to get a little bit of healing on auto attacks is garbage.

I still don’t like most abilities being off the GCD, but I do like Holy Radiance as a spender instead of Light of Dawn, for the sole reason that it gives you much better control of WHERE the heal is going, instead of the crazy randomness of “it’s gonna hit some targets probably within this 40 yard range.” I could imagine in raid if a blob of damage hits somewhere, you could target somebody in that blob and heal a group of others in the same area effectively, instead of randomly targeting whatever happens to be in your cone.

These two changes would bring some very interesting choices. The first is choosing between more bursty healing or more consistent healing. The second is choosing between more reliable power or more intermittent power. I like both, but as above my only fear is how long the Holy Shock cooldown would be with/without Sanctified Wrath, and whether the longer cooldown would feel playable.

Yeah, the issue I was having was, and not to say this is the “correct” way to play, but when you are allowed to get Sanctified Wrath and Avenging Crusader… it kindof defeated the purpose of Avenging Crusader as the cooldown was spent hitting Holy Shock.

Those abilities felt like they clashed and just felt more inline to be on a shared choice node.

While I don’t want Paladins to be 20 talents for melee, 20 talents for caster, and the tree feel like it’s been split in two-- I would like to have some choice and some difference so it feels like my desire playstyle is being enhanced and a bit more distinguished.

Yeah, which I assume would revolve around talents like Crusader’s Might. There could be different ways as to how CS’s cooldown is reduced to make room for AC or some form of the melee paladin to return.

This was just noted to make sure the current playstyle was impacted as little as possible.

Blade of Justice should have 2 charges to prevent Art of War from being mostly wasted. While the other spells could just receive a massively lower CD, but either way I don’t think these are real problems of the spec.

I love the range extension, I don’t feel like a caster at all, I think if we had a slow in PVP, just a mild one it would do wonders.

Vanguard of Justice should just be removed and replaced with a talent that gives TV and ES the ability to hit up to 3 targets to fix some of our cleave problems. 3 HP just feels infinitely more fluid than 4.

Should honestly just have Radiant and delete Holystrike.

Expurgation really need to feed off itself so the more you stack it up the stronger it gets. The other 2 talents just need bigger values to make them feel like they are doing anything at all or just be reworked entirely. 10% is barely noticeable when our dots don’t do much to begin with.

Agreed, Rush of Light also sucks, Relentless Inquisitor was a much better version of a haste buff and should return somewhere else while Rush of Light is remade.

Divine Hammer sucks compared to its Legion version and should either be removed entirely or returned to its former glory as a replacement of BoJ for AOE.

I thought about making another thread, but I’d like to bump this one since it looks like @zaim put a lot of work into it.

I’m here to ask (as always) for flexible yet competitive builds. Specifically I’d like to start by mentioning Crusade.

What is going on with Crusade? It needs to be buffed/modified in some way in order to find a healthy position in our builds. It has simmed close to one minute wings at times, possibly even slightly higher toward the end of Aberrus, however, I think the talent has been roughly treated in the rework. Ideally it should create strong synergies with certain talent selections, and while the rough framework is there, it simply doesn’t shine enough to warrant selection. I really think this node is possibly the most important in the spec tree, because it modifies the most important power CD we have left after our burst was trimmed.

There’s so much more to discuss but I think others have addressed the dead nodes in the tree already.

We need flexible builds, we need varied gameplay. The current best setup for ret ST is incredibly low APM with very little room for variation. The trees promised were supposed to allow us to build around our favorite generators but I think even casual players would realize that’s not really possible. There’s half ideas, dead ends, and abandoned concepts all over the tree to be frank.

Why not bring back Ringing Clarity as a choice node against Divine Resonance, or somewhere in the ret spec tree?

Why not adjust or even redesign our mastery to something more engaging?

The Radiant portion of the tree feels very underdeveloped. Searing Light is just not engaging.

Divine Arbiter feels a bit weak. It has potential but I think it needs more work.

I guess ultimately I’m asking for transformative, flexible builds that really shift damage contributions and synergies in a stark and meaningful way. As it is, I just do not feel like that is being delivered upon.

I think Crusade is just one of those talents that slipped through the cracks in terms of how the double talent tree is designed.

(Also, as a PvPer, the fact that Crusade loses Avenging Wrath’s +20% Healing multiplier always annoyed me.)

But going back to the post that I had made about AW:Might in PvP, I think the core issue is that Avenging Wrath in the Class Tree gives +20% damage and healing baseline.

That high of an amount of damage is hard to compete versus in a singular talent replacement that is Crusade.

  • Avenging Wrath: Might = 1 min cooldown + 20% crit
  • Crusade = 2 min cooldown + 30% Haste gained over ~10 sec

On paper, these are comparable talents. However, when you add in Avenging Wrath, these talents lose that competition.

  • Avenging Wrath = 1 min cooldown + 20% Healing/Damage
  • Avenging Wrath: Might = 1 min cooldown + 20% crit + 20% Healing/Damage
  • Crusade = 2 min cooldown + 30% Haste gained over ~10 sec + 30% Damage

Crusade gains no healing and only 10% damage for double the cooldown.

So the questions become:

  1. Should Avenging Wrath give +20% damage and healing?
    • Should that be 10/10% and increased by Might and Crusade as needed?
  2. Should Crusade replace the +20/20% damage and healing from AW?
  3. Should Crusade increase the +20/20% damage and healing from AW to +40/40%?
  4. Should Crusade have a 1 min cooldown as well?
  5. Should Crusade do something more? (Necrolord Banner effect)
  6. Should Avenging Wrath: Might only last 10 seconds?

The biggest issue is really just double Hammer of Wrath from Vanguards, I think that one needs to be looked at the most because if the answer is to simply combine Judgement and Hammer of Wrath into 1 button cause they do pretty much the same thing…

That should be a huge indicator that one of those abilities needs a new identity.

Vengeful Wrath, Vanguard’s Momentum, and Empyrean Power should change HoW into something more like Necrolord’s Hammer.

Well, we do have Judgement of Justice, it’s just not very noticeable with how strong other snares are in comparison, and how much “anti snare” actually exists within the game.

It’s very hard to feel envious of Blessing of Freedom when so many classes have either increased range of their own attacks, or their own way to break roots/snares.

  • Vengeful Retreat + Reverse Magic
  • Demonic Circle
  • Wraith Walk + Death’s Advance
  • Cloak of Shadows + Maneuverability + Shadow Step
  • Bladestorm + Storm of Destruction
  • Tiger’s Lust + Skyreach
  • Etc…

In addition, Paladins have received nerfs such as Unbound Freedom can once again be dispelled for reasons

The Paladin Kit has been given to everyone, including immunities, and we have not been given a new identity since.

That’s why I really wanted to post about the Class Fantasy of Paladins and what is it that they are supposed to do? Is it working? Does it need to be improved or replaced?

In PvP, its become extremely boring because I don’t feel like I do anything but DPS from 20 yards away. I am always kited, always targeted, and just feel like I have nothing of value to offer the team outside of comparable DPS numbers.

  • There’s no MS
  • There’s no purge
  • There’s no spammable CC
    • Most classes are up to 2+ stuns, Paladins remain the only class with a singular dispelable stun and Blinding Light breaks on damage and removes debuffs for reasons:expressionless:
  • There’s no spammable anti CC
  • I don’t cleanse poisons and diseases faster or as often as they are reapplied
  • I don’t snare in any effective matter
  • I bring very little anti Snare that isn’t instantly purged or ignored
  • I don’t slow attack speeds or casting speeds (Curse of Tongues, Delirium)
  • I don’t have LoS PvP Talents
  • I don’t fly up in the air with Wings
  • I have less team utility than Warriors and Mages with AoE Barrier, lol

I’m hopeful that the War Within and SoD highlight the need for more Class Fantasy, just feels bad having to wait a year for it to come to Paladins. =/