Feedback: Paladins

I really have to echo this post and how bad this recent decision was to change Zeal, Empyrean Power, and Final Verdict.

  • Zeal and Blade of Wrath have been moved up and put before the 1st gate.
    • Zeal and Blade of Wrath positional changes are aimed to solidify the foundation of Retribution Paladin. The new positioning will allow the players to get these talents in a simpler and more satisfying way for both leveling and end game content.

(https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/en/wow/t/dragonflight-beta-development-notes/1278546)

Zeal and Blade of Wrath positional changes are aimed to solidify the foundation of Retribution Paladin.

Kaivax, you guys stated you were going to build Ret over a foundation of BoJ, and subsequently Art of War. You then incorporated ten talents that revolve around BoJ, then proceeded to give us “new” ways to generate Holy Power on top of that.

  • Fires of Justice was a talent about 2% of the Paladin population took on Live.
  • Sanctification and Inner Grace are new talents Blizzard created in an attempt at something new.

Blizzard allowing players to spec in both Blades of Wrath and Fires of Justice is the problem.
Blizzard not changing how Fires of Justice works, is the problem.
Blizzard incorporating Sanctification and Inner Grace in a poor manner, is the problem.

This is a pretty big Blizzard Retribution Design problem. You are sweeping these problems under the rug due to sheer laziness…

.
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You’re ruining specs for other Paladin Players.

21 Likes

Or and hear me out, we give Prot Paladins a PvP Talent to use a 2h+Shield and give them Final Verdict…

3 Likes

I have an absurd idea, and not sure if it’ll even work. Is there a way we can stage a protest? A strike of some sort? Spitballing here, like not play paladin for x amount of days, or something else that will get Blizz’s attention? Can spread it around Discord.

Ultimately, we are what keep Blizzard alive. Our money. Granted Blizz has a massive player base in any game, but there has to be a way we can peacefully protest, to get their attention

10 Likes

Coming to terms with the recent changes, I think we need to discuss what I believe to be the biggest issue with Paladin class desimg as a whole right now; The sheer waste of potential. The loss of what could have been.

When they announced the new talent tree system, a lot of us were excited. A chance to get into the guts of each class independent of outside forces (borrowed power if you will) and give them a tuned up and a fresh coat of paint. In that respect, a lot of classes got that. Some annoyances from past iterations were cleaned up, gameplay modernized and made healthier, etc. However when it came to Paladins, we never really saw any of that. Most of our legacy bugbears are still with us, our core kit was gutted and placed in our tree to pick up ad nasuiem, and it prots case had its entire gimmick peeled away and given to warriors as a talent.

Where other classes have had meaningful discourse with staff, for ill or for ilk, Paladins have received nary a whisper. What should we be, where should we be, and how we should be are still all major mysteries to us.

Blizzard has shown themselves to be able to make these iconic Paladineque characters in their stories and other properties, yet despite that pool of ideas to pull from, we are left in this confused tattered web with no notion of where we are headed.

To sum up, its just deeply saddening that with a class with such rich potential to be more then it is, that we are in this current rut. I think a lot of us here would happily trade whatever high damage we will likely receive as compensation for a playstyle and class that feels fun to pick up and play.

26 Likes

Dragonflight Season 1 goes live starting the week of December 12

Okay, we already see the start… so i take it we have 1-2 weeks before that to lvl, meaning when the expac actually goes out.
November 28 i see now is DF launch date.

Not that it matters that much to me, i don’t plan on continuing to play wow at all if nothing is done to improve this sham of a design for ret paladins.

8 Likes

Nothing’s being done at this point =/

They just abandoned the class as a “it’s fine” mentality, they did not incorporate any “lessons learned” or discuss any player feedback.

This is very evident in a lot of the Class Tree.

  • Taking Fist of Justice to get Rebuke
  • Taking Repentance to get Cleanse
  • Taking Asp of Divinity to get Dusk and Dawn (Holy Caster)
  • Taking Crusader’s Might to get to Glimmer
  • Taking HoH to get to Ashes to Ashes

Our Class Tree and all 3 Spec trees have this issue.

  • Seal of Might
  • Mad Paragon
  • Echoing Blessing
  • Veneration
  • Awakening
  • Vanguard’s Momentum
  • Unbreakable Spirit (Ret)

The only difference a Ret Paladin will find in DF is BoJ sometimes drops a Consecration, that’s it.

34 Likes

You meant to say to Relentless Inquisitor.

Selfless Healer/Healing hands are actually useful(in any content) to get to Ashes to Ashes/Templar’s Vindication.

But HoH is literally a hindrance in PVE, we waste a point for nothing on bosses.

If they actually cared they’d make Hand of Hindrance(rename it to Balance of Justice) provide the full speed increase on the paladin when used on an immune target and on normal targets it would increase your speed by the amount it decreases the speed of the enemy… then it would be useful, but what do i know.

4 Likes

If they cared, they would have given us more mobility and a snare/root in our class tree. It’s not like Holy Paladins are a melee healer or anything?..

Imgur

See those * options * of different mobility and snares amongst other classes, sure would have been nice to just been offered the possibility…

13 Likes

The thing is our Holy Power generation capacity, was slightly nerfed by nerfing Ashes to Dust to 35%, So coming to Dragonflight, and before we always cried for more damage outside of AW, and consisted Damage
them Nerfing Blade of Wrath:

  1. Nerfs Ashes to Ashes (overall damage).
  2. Nerfs Wake of Ashes procs (Aoe and Overall).
  3. Nerfs Blade of Justice and all the new talents they added for it (Consecrated Blade, Expurgation, Sealed Verdict) (Overall damage).
  4. Nerfs our Holy power spender abilities by making us cast less of them (TV, DS, RD).
  5. Nerfs Execution Sentence Damage.
  6. Nerfs our Damage During our CDs (Avenging Wrath and Final Reckoning).
  7. Makes it more difficult to play Of Dusk and Dawn/Seal of Order.

It’s not like Ret was destroying the meters, not it ever has, They added Inner Grace/Sanctification, (you can make builds where you don’t pick them), and they are tuning them by Removing something that worked for 7 years.

15 Likes

Plenty of options of anybody actually cared to think of them.

Breaking what isn’t broken, so they can add Inner Grace/Sanctification where apparently there isn’t room.
Like i said before…

I question this whole design.

So going into DF we have:

  • more rng
  • more dmg during wings due to cd stacking
  • less mobility

Why would i play ret? Why??

What do we gain? Let’s see:

  • reliance on Consecration for dmg… wait, this isn’t a gain this is a vulnerability, as enemies can step or are dragged out of it.
  • Exorcism back? I guess… but it’s dmg is pitiful and the mechanics it has is counter-intuitive, it doesn’t even give us 1 holy power so that we know if it’s worth using.

What do we gain? I ask again in vain.

11 Likes

I have actually heard the paladin dev has played only prot since legion. idk how true that actually is tho.

4 Likes

The Thing is they said that their Depiction of Ret involves around, Charging into Battle and removing movement hindering effects, You can Play Paladin without picking any of those, you just don’t take Divine Steed and Hand of Freedom, They aren’t even Baseline.
Furthermore, they aren’t even the best at that, Divine Steed on GCD can be slowed, rooted and knocked back, Hand of Freedom, on GCD can be dispelled, and spell stolen.
They Should at least make one of them or Both BASELINE.
Divine Steed is a CHARGING BEAST, Powered by the light, it must be UNSTOPPABLE.
Hand of Freedom, should provide a minor (30%) Speed boost, the talent exists in pvp.
and as you said, they aren’t making Ret in a Vacuum, they gave all other Melee at least 2 movement abilities one of them baseline, and Ret already has Mobility as one of its biggest weaknesses. we expected improvements not nerfs.

17 Likes

That actually makes sense, because if you’re using Glimmer you’ll want as low a CD on Holy Shock as you can get, and that comes from this talent. It’s better than going through Divine Resonance in terms of theme.

Now, Barrier of Faith being behind either Divine Glimpse (Holy Shock) or Untempered Dedication (LotM) makes no sense as Barrier of Faith interacts with neither of these spells.

  • Blessing of Spellwarding is now a Protection Paladin only talent, located as a choice node with Improved Ardent Defender. Additionally, Blessing of Spellwarding no longer replaces Blessing of Protection and now shares its cooldown with Blessing of Protection. Talents that reduce the cooldown of Blessing of Protection will now also affect Blessing of Spellwarding.

GOOD FAILURE GUYS REALLY YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. Thx for removing my only good cds vs casters cleave in arena I really enjoy it.

BTW we still have 0 pvp talent in our trees while dh got 4.

Don’t ever say again that you want to gives us an expansion of the highest quality for this incredible community.

BECAUSE YOU SPAT ON US SINCE ALPHA

26 Likes

IMO, it’s fine for Ret to have a weakness, being mobility. In PVP you can’t have immunities and tons of mobility and tons of healing and big burst damage. I get that; it makes sense to design classes with strengths and weaknesses.

The problem is that in PVP, our healing gets nerfed by dampening, so our primary “defensive” in the form of healing slowly gets eroded in a way that defensive buttons like astral shift or other %-based damage reductions don’t.

Have y’all seen mages yet in Dragonflight? These fools can MOVE. They can blink, then blink back, then have blink reset, two charges of blink if they want.

Again, I’m fine with weaknesses as long as that’s the way every class is designed. But it doesn’t feel that way. What weakness do warriors or rogues or monks or DKs have? I genuinely am curious because I don’t have the time or desire to look through 20 other spec trees, but surely this isn’t specific to Ret Paladins right?

5 Likes

Feedback: Beta Build 45779
Holy & PvP Focused

For what it’s worth (ha!). Here’s some feedback looking primarily at the tuning of the existing nodes and layout. Trying to salvage HPal as it’s literally unplayable in PvP at the moment.

Divine Favour:

  • The cast time reduction and the healing increase is too weak, and the CD is too long. I’d like to see it returned to it’s strength at the start of Shadowlands. 100% Healing increase, 60% Cast Time Reduction & 30 sec CD.

Divine Toll: (Holy)

  • It’s too weak. That’s it. Make its healing 300% more effective on our primary target.

That’s it, that’s all I want. Give us those two things and I’ll be happy (enough)

Our largest issues in PvP is that we have no reliable, big, on demand heals anymore. Holy light takes too long to cast, Flash of light is slightly faster but is weak and expensive and is only worth casting with Infusion of Light, assuming you’ve taken applicable talents. Light of the Martyr is fine enough but very niche. Our big HP spenders are underwhelming, and even if they weren’t they aren’t reliable as ranged HPals are generally more HP starved.

so really, just those two changes and I can make it work. please.

1 Like

And Again →
Protection provides its allies with Blessing of Spellwarding.
Holy provides its allies with Aura of Mastery.
Ret provides its allies with __________?? Retribution Aura?? Oh wait, it doesn’t provide anything to your allies, Oh wait, it’s not even Ret exclusive… Of course not asking for it back, half of this almost 1000 reply offers the feedback that this aura should be removed, nor it is an aura. Why would one anyone invite Ret ?

13 Likes

I could be wrong, but I thought there was a caster build that used Imbued Infusions and Inflorence of the Sunwell to get Holy Shock on a shorter cooldown, kindof offsetting the Crusader’s Might talent.

However, those are on the right side of the tree and getting to Glimmer meant going through Crusader’s Might.

But whatever, the point is that this class got abandoned, all issues that could have been solved if we got some feedback 400 posts ago, before this forum became a ----show. :slight_smile:

Laughing in mage

11 Likes

DKs aren’t terribly mobile (but no worse than us - a bit slower but much harder to stop), but have better control than we do and better damage reduction CDs.

Warriors… well they’re even more mobile than in SL and have more self-sustain and all their stuns, snares, etc., are physical, and they can shatter damage shields and bubbles. I guess a Warrior’s weakness is that they can’t heal others.

Monks? Don’t know.

If we can’t get to and stick to targets in PvP all that will matter is that we can kill them on contact, and that’s not a healthy playstyle.

8 Likes