Feedback: Paladins

I’m not talking about throughput talents, for choices.
That should be in the last part of the tree.

What is rigid is the choices in utility, since we need to get every throughput talent there is, and there are too many. We only get any utility on the way to the throughput talents.

Which brings us to Obduracy, in the final part of the tree. What is it doing there?
Especially since they want Consecration as part of our dps, we’ll 100% of the time take the Consecration talent.
When will we pick Obduracy for PVE? Never, that’s when.
Originally it was 1 row above its position and we could have picked between the DPS talents below it, now there is no choice.

Who made that decision? Because it was absolutely pointless and further restricting us of any choices.

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Good morning, Paladin friends! And happy Saturday!

What a lovely day it is for us to remind Blizzard:

  • Prot Paladin Avenger’s Shield should generate Holy Power
  • Holy Paladin Judgement should generate Holy Power
  • Ret Paladin Divine Protection should be 1 minute (and probably baseline)
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Good morning, but you’re late to the party.

It’s been called off. Enjoy your evening in DF.

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I was going to send a screenshot of the blue post where they said that long arm is fun but they are going to remove it anyway to a friend of mine. However, I wasn’t able to find it with the jump to blue post feature next to the scroll bar, so I checked manually and they literally deleted the post.

Just wow…

Edit: It looks like it was in the main dragonflight beta discussion. I would expect pally posts to be made in the pally discussion. At least it wasn’t deleted so that’s good.

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Upcoming change: Paladin renamed to Commoner.

We recognize that having fun interactive gameplay is enjoyable. We’ve since removed all abilities and talents for the Paladin class and renamed it to Commoner. As a commoner you have access to professions.

See you all in Dragonflight!

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(https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/en/wow/t/feedback-druids/1279517/621)

Imgur

Imgur

:thinking:

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I just got 8nto the beta a few days ago, and i can not exspress how disheartening it is to see a blue post “saying where pretty much done with talent tree structure”

I really want to continue my main on my ret pally ( its the only spec i play, live and die by the hammer.)

I really dont want to stop playing ret but its abit underwhelming see lack of communication and professionalism. ( I’m saying this as nicely as i can)

At both my work and when i served in the military we learned how important communication is, it allows us to see what the main goal is (if any) and to strive to help complete ( or in this case test and give valuable feedback) goals of the devs.

Without any or llittle to none communication, we as the customer, consumer whatever you want to call us have to guess what direction to go for.

It waste the hours upon hours of feedback and testing that was done. ( while its fun to test new things for blizzard in beta and alpha, it is work. Many people take time out of their day to help and give feed back and suggetions with no pay, just love of the game) its a bit disrespectful to not even communicate with those who are testing your product and give direction.

Even stopping in to say " hey sorry all, we are still working on making the class tree sorry for the wait stay tuned, dont fret we havent forgotten about you." Or even " hey all, we honestly like the way the tree is structured, we meet our goal on how paladin performs, while we will do small changes and tunning our main focus is now done, thank you all for the effort and feedback."

But instead nothing its abit disheartening.

So instead ill say it for blizz from my perspective.

" dear alpha/beta and everyone who has spent their time to help, i want to personally thank you.

I see the effort that was put in and the time that was shared and spent to try to make a fine tuned product. Seeing every post and reading each one i can personally say i am impressed how detailed your feedback and suggestions where. Really i can’t express enough my thanks for tak8ng the time from your day to test this and give great feedback. While some i didnt always agree with, none the less it made me relook at the structure of the paladin class and analyze it more deeply.

Thank you all for all your efforts, it really did mean alot to the rest of us.

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Holy Power on Shields, add 10-12% haste to the basic kit. Do it.

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So here’s my 2 cents as a now, multi year Prot Paladin main, who has done M+ for the mount achieve, 3 seasons running now. I switched from Guardian Druid, that I played from Legion through BFA.
Anything that makes this class “slower”, a class that has cooldowns for basically EVERY ability, makes the class feel worse to play. Any time I’m sitting without a button to push, is time spent with me hating the class.
Therefore, lowering holy power generation, in any way, is a bad choice. I specifically don’t play Blood DK because the class is renowned for half or more of the expansion with lots of “bar waiting”, until the haste cap starts to catch up. This gameplay is “not fun”. Put holy power back on Avenger’s shield. It’s literally one holy power on an ability that can’t be hit every GCD…why was this a problem? The class feels “measurably slower” now as a result of this change.

On a side note, why am I putting talent points into something so basic as my interrupt? This seems like the stupidest change put in the game, and I’d say this if it’s something that’s on every tank tree. Interrupts are a fundamental part of the tank toolkit, and it feels like crap in a group if the tank can’t interrupt. Case in point, you put BFA dungeons in the primary leveling rotation, and I can’t stress enough how frustrating it is to be in a group with a bear tank that’s like level 15 in these dungeons, with necessary interrupts that could result in a 30 second stun to a party member, and the tank, and no one else, can do the interrupt…they simply don’t have the ability. So we compound that problem by making it now “totally optional” to have one at a all? So even if I say "hey tank, interrupt xyz ability, he may not even have put the talent points in to put it on his bar? It’s like Blizzard doesn’t play it’s own game. Put the interrupts in the baseline tookit, at the minimum level, for ALL tanks, and for that matter DPS and whomever else. This is NOT an “optional” part of gameplay…by YOUR DESIGN. People are bad enough at the game because they don’t use the interrupt, or can’t tell when they need to (because they don’t have DBM and the cast bar is too small to watch in the UI), we don’t need to compound the problem by making this an “optional talent”.

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Sadly, everything we said was a waste of time and breath;

Everything I say is from a prot main perspective, but I also play every other tanking spec in the game (though I focus on 3 or 4 per season, paladin is always the first and most geared)
Aside from the core philosophy of the class being baffling, there are still talents that simply do not work, as in they are broken (or I hope so because if they are working as intended then we sincerely need to look into the person who designed them’s sanity ; for example Alacrity giving 2% haste as 2% from the actual haste value (which would equate to~0.2% in effective haste) rather than an actual 2%; meaning you spend 2 talent points to get the equivalent of a shadowlands level haste gem… this far into the beta something as simple as that should not be broken (especially when every class has a similar talent)
And as you say, there has been no communication on this thread aside from the effective nerf of holy shield (yes, it’s a nerf) to make it resemble the warrior ability, an ability that did not exist until now and we frankly should not have as warriors (let’s all remember that spell reflect exists on a really short CD and ignore pain is cheap and off the GCD and shield wall has an effective cool down of 60-90 seconds, with the proper talents and gameplay)

I will get off my soap box and stop preaching to the choir, since evidently no one else is reading these posts. I personally have given up. The tree requires major redesigns and I do not see any sign of whoever is responsible being willing to do that.

P.S: Why in the name of God is Divine Toll on every spec tree instead of class tree- this is the biggest mystery in the universe…

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Just some updated feedback for protection spec as of beta build 10.0.2.45746:

Feedback:

  • Protection Paladin health scaling is fairly nerfed in DF vs SL. On SL my prot paladin has 143k HP and copying my toon to beta or PTR results in 123k health (outside of shadowlands…136k in shadowlands). No stamina based talents or souldbinds or buffs, all the same gear. This is a pretty big nerf to Paladin health scaling. This should be reverted. Paladins were not top tier tanks already, so further widening the divide is not very healthy for us.
  • Seasoned Warhorse should be at least 2 seconds as a choice node. My preference would be 3 to get it more in line with shadowlands, but 1 second feels really off
  • Appreciate the holy power generation from Divine Toll now.
  • Lack of holy power generation on Avenger’s Shield does feel really off. You might consider adding it back, maybe as a choice node with Crusader’s Judgement so people can pick if they want the extra holy power from judgement or AS.

Bugs:

  • Seal of Clarity doesn’t seem to proc for me. After 5 straight mins of generating holy power and spending it, it doesn’t seem to ever proc. Don’t know if it is related to my build or just a general bug.
  • Seal of Might definitely doesn’t work when you take Sentinel. I don’t know if it just doesn’t work at all (still NYI?) or if taking Sentinel breaks it.
  • Righteous Protector doesn’t work with Sentinel. It should reduce the cooldown, but doesn’t.
  • Both Guardian of the Ancient Kings and Divine Shield seem to randomly reset cooldown faster than expected (like not due to cooldown reduction, but randomly just fully resets). Not sure what is causing it
  • Strength of Adversity is either capped at 5 stacks (doesn’t show stacks, but only get 5x of the buff) or it isn’t interacting properly with Soaring Shield or Divine Toll. Not sure if this is a bug or intended.

Suggestions:

  • Add a choice node at Hand of the Protector with another new ability: “Protectors Bond: When casting Word of Glory on another player, instantly cast Shield of the Righteous”. I think this would give an interesting choice there where you can either choose to help out party members more or make it more easy for you to use it on party members without taking extra risk on difficult pulls.
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in accordance with the responses and communication ret got this testing cycle, we either a side project of his side project, or we didn’t had anyone that worked on it for real, just stamped previous abilities and bonus into a spec tree…
it feels like it was like , Umm :confused: Blade of justice, what is that ? ohh yea the sword the pops, yea saw rets use it a lot, lets give them that, it generates 2 HOLY power, let’s make a talent out of that, let me see…, prolly buff it, check previous buffs ? art of war, yea, more damage yea, expurg that’s seem neat, what’s the tier set bonus they got, ashes to dust, lets give them that, Umm let’s see ES check, FR check, Justicar’s vengance Oh that’s seem strong check, Wake of ashes Check, ohh zeal forgot about that Check, divine tempest check,… Umm :confused: still need additional talents, Yo XX (his friend next to him) what was that ability that paladins have in classic, like a holy spell, Exorcism oh yeaa, i mean they are lacking in aoe consistent aoe to my notes, lets make it address that, Holy wrath use to be a thing lets merge… lets just buff consecration… still needs a few nodes, oh lets take some of the conduits. that’s it perfect

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Just checked the Warrior class feedback as it only has less than 250 replies, and scrolled through it, different Devs replying continuously through out the testing period, i invite you guys to just check the amount of notes from the devs about warrior changes and design, we in 700 reply got drastically less notes to 0 in last weeks… like why is that ???

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yall legit need to calm down. they said no big changes. a good chunk of ret issues are tuning related. (horse gcd and duration, DP cooldown) instead of everyone here filling up the forums with unproductive whining and crying. prepare your logs and details for the upcoming tuning phase. legit there are people posting actual feedback and their thoughts and its instantly being buried by snark.

if you are unhappy, by all means your allowed to be unhappy but dont bury other peoples feedback posts with doomer stuff

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Played prot some more on beta, it was pretty fun. Lack of HP generation on Avenger’s Shield really puts a damper on it, though. Once again begging Blizz to reverse course on this dumb change.

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So I compared the Devs communication with Warrior class to Paladins, and here what I found:
Paladin Feedback Thread:

  • Thread opened July 26th

  • First reply by Dev: July 27th

  • Last reply by Dev: September 9th

  • Nearly 500 replies by community without a reply from aDev.

  • The Devs replied 7 times: 1 reply touching on Paladin (all specs included), 3 replies for Holy, 2 replies for Protection and 1 reply for Ret.

  • The Devs replies amount to 1551 words, the Paladin Thread has over 700 replies

Warrior Feedback Thread :

  • Thread opened August 2nd

  • First reply by Dev: August 2nd

  • Last reply by Dev: September 19th

  • a little bit over 50 replies by community with no replies by a Dev.

  • the Devs replied 8 times: 7 replies touching on Warrior (all specs included), and 1 reply touching on Protection

  • The Devs replies amount to 6369 words, the Warrior Thread has almost 250 replies

this out of frustration, but I feel like the data speaks for itself…

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The numbers are interesting. It resembles the Zereth Mortis Paladin dev team.

I think it is safe to assume each “class dev team” places different values on communication.

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Yep…

All I wanted was for someone to talk shop with us the same way they did with the other specs. How great would that have been to have a dev come in and talk to us about builds from the past, present, and future? Would’ve been a dream come true to me. Instead I leave this beta feeling like I’ve all but received confirmation that this spec is just not taken seriously by the devs.

It will be playable, but I’m just really disheartened that no one on the team seems to want to communicate with us about anything at all. Is it punishment for all the hyperbole? Did we burn too many bridges? I guess I can’t know and it doesn’t matter. Sounds a bit melodramatic when I read it back but I am actually quite sad. Wish all you Paladins the best in this xpac, I’ll keep reporting bugs as I find them and I’m sure you all will too!

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Paladin & Retribution Tree Issues/Possible Fixes

• Divine Steed talent node should have the option of Divine Steed or Long Arm of the Law. It should be 70% movement speed for 3 seconds after casting a Judgement (or adjusted if needed). If spec’d into Long Arm of the Law, Seasoned Warhorse should be Swift Justice where each talent point increases the duration of the movement increase from Long Arm of the Law by 1 second. Cavalier talent node would then be renamed something else so it can also benefit from Long Arm of the Law.

• Holy Aegis Talent should be baseline. Having to talent into more armor and crit just seems so bad.

• Retribution Aura should be something different. An actual raid buff to give 5% haste to the raid is a good start.

• Divine Protection. This being a 2 minute CD makes no sense. The amount of damage we’d need to take in 8 seconds to make this worth it over Shield of Vengeance is more than an entire health bar. It either needs to be reduced it to 1 minute or make it a 40/50% damage reduction and keep it 2 minutes.

• Justicars Vengeance: This needs to be changed to something else.

• Hand of Hinderance should be baseline for Retribution. It should be in the baseline kit, having it almost at the bottom of the ret tree seems extremely weird.

• Exorcism in its current state will never be used. Put it into the right side of the tree to replace one of the Blade of Justice nodes and make it replace Blade of Justice as a spell. Make it scale with our mastery and create a sort of Holy DoT damage spec. Would be cool.

• Crusade is still a 3 minute CD on the beta. This needs to be adjusted back to 2 minutes.

• Ashes to Ashes should be only 1 talent point, not 2. Make it 1 point and a 4 second duration. With the extra point we can now get a point somewhere else that would make different builds viable instead of 1, maybe 2.

• Empyrean Endowment. It should be every judgement gives you 2 stacks of a buff where you cast a divine storm after each templars verdict. Like how the current legendary is for Necrolord.

• Divine Toll: To make this viable it needs to have ringing clarity tied to it. Not having it greatly impacts the ability.

• A lot of the “damage increase” abilities in the base paladin tree should probably be baseline for all specializations so we can pick more utility-based options instead of “throwing” during progress because you had to pick utility but need the damage as well but can’t have both.

• For Zealots Paragon, I feel like it should be changed so each Holy Power spent reduces the CD of Wings by X seconds. I know it extends the duration of wings but I feel like we have enough options that increase the duration of other things. I’d really like to see an interaction that actively reduces the CD of wings.

I can probably add more but if Blizzard looked at the forums they have all the information they need on how to fix Retribution.

I know I said I wouldn’t make a list but I made one quickly anyway with stuff off the top of my head. Let’s just hope Blizzard is listening…

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So they named our tier set Virtuous Silver Cataphract. Why do I have a feeling it’s going to affect the horse.

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