FEEDBACK: Paladin Class Changes

Hello everyone,

Below is a discussion of Prot holy power generation and utilization, as well as, a brief note on some convenient class abilities.

-Holy Power-
As a core resource, holy power is a great addition to protection. Having an actual resource to play around is always welcome in lieu of pure cooldown management. That being said I see some potential problems with its current iteration.

-Judgment-
Currently, judgment does not provide holy power generation for protection. This greatly hinders the consistency and flow of the spec and could become problematic in a none charge based mitigation system. While having so much power tied to a single ability in the form of generation, shining light and damage could be overbearing. The best option for class continuity and protection’s general gameplay would be to allow judgement to generate. Potentially moving shining light to shield the righteous could greatly alleviate this issue. Furthermore, allowing jugement to generate for all specs would be a boon to spec and class consistency.

-Grand Crusader-
Compounding protection’s holy power generation issues is the low proc rate on grand crusaders. This could easily be fixed by adding 5-10% proc chance to the passive or by adding the old first avenger talent as a potency conduit. This would improve the flow of the spec especially in single target situations when grand crusaders proc chance is greatly reduced.

-Hammer of Wrath-
It’s a good addition to the paladin tool kit and provides extra holy power generation during wings and execution. The only issue with hammer of wrath is the ret wings extension legendary and the sanctified wrath talent. This combination, while being very strong, makes prot far too reliant on a single cool down for both damage and holy power generation. Adding one holy power back to judgment and removing prots ability to use this legendary would go a long way in smoothing out this huge spike in mitigation and damage.

-Word of Glory-
As part of protection’s mitigation suite, word of glory has quite a lot of versatility. Being a holy power spender, like a shield of the righteous, gives the spec some flexibility on how to deal with incoming damage. We can alternate between a mitigation and a healing play style depending on the damage patterns of the encounter, which is great to see. The biggest issue with word of glory is that it is currently on the GCD. Having a reactive heal on the gcd as a tank player does not feel good and it can even lead to death due to gcd lock. This is not just a problem for protection paladin and extends to other tanks’ self healing tools as well
-Seraphim-
As an extension of the holy power and gcd discussion of word of glory. Seraphim should also be taken off the gcd. Protection currently has a lot of build up by being forced to press quite a few gcds that buff our class before we can start doing damage. Taking Seraphim back off the gcd in addition to word of glory would be great for continuity of how protection utilities holy power while at the same time smoothing out pressing multiple buff gcd in a row. This would also reduce the impact of changing the duration from 16-15 seconds.

This concludes the discussion on holy power.

-Blessing of Seasons-
Blizzard has already stated this will be redesigned. I’m not sure if we already have the redesign or not. This ability is a huge outlier in the strength of paladin convenient class abilities because it allows you to buff your teammates in some gaming breaking ways, such as Blessing of Autumn during breath of sindragosa on a frost dk. Even using Blessing of Autumn on yourself with sanctified wrath and the ret wings extension legendary has proven to be very very very strong in testing. If this ability exists and you are able to buff your teammates it will almost always be the best for all content. Personally, I would love to see a replacement spell for consecration from night fae in the same vein as the DK class ability death’s due.

-Divine Toll-
Needs some help vs a single target. In its current iteration the ability is very fun and satisfying vs a group of enemies but does almost nothing for a single target. Making it always throw 5 shields even vs a single target could be a fix to this. Or the cooldown could be based on how many targets are hit by avengers shields. Aka if you use Divine toll vs 1 target it has a 12 second cooldown. But If you use it vs 5 targets it has a 1 minute cooldown.

The other two convenient abilities seem to be in a good state. However, necrolords do need to have cost Holy power.

Thank you for your time.

10 Likes

For Holy Paladin I think Light of Dawn needs to be reworked a little bit. At the moment it feels like a dead spell. Word of Glory is always the better choice. Either Light of Dawn needs to not cost Holy Power or it needs to do a lot more healing than WoG. Alternatively the beacon transfer of aoe spells could be changed as well to make LoD better. Could Also make LoD cost mana and give a Holy Power, but that might be asking for too much.

On a different note Holy paladins ATM do not really benefit from casting at all. I think that using Infusions of Light procs should give Holy Power. This would encourage Paladins to cast a lot more.

I also think that glimmer is too weak in it’s current state to be utilized. Paladin don’t generate enough Holy shocks for it to good and it doesn’t heal for all that much. I think that its healing could be left as is if Word of Glory and Holy shock both applied/triggered Glimmer of Light.

13 Likes

I agree. During the raid test this weekend i used light of dawn twice out of the 4 bosses we raid tested. Glimmer kinda runs out after using Divine Toll and it would be neat if word of glory also applied glimmer but i feel like this would become omega OP when we scale. Also Holy light and flash of light i barely use and try to avoid to use because flash of light still doesn’t do any healing worth to press the ability unless its an emergency and i have to spam flash heal and oom. Holy light does decent healing but takes FOREVER to get a cast off and when i do cast it during an infusion proc i pray that my tank doesn’t die XD

i really want holy light and flash of light to feel good to press cause i love being a strong ST healer and i just hope these 2 get a conduit or a buff because at the moment i try my best to avoid pressing these 2 buttons and i just replace them with holy shock or word of glory :frowning:

Glimmer should be placed in saved by the lights spot imo and put divine purpose in the current glimmer spot.

Also holy avenger being a 3 minute cd instead of 2 minute but i can see why because they probably dont want us pairing HA with wings but holy avenger is so fun to use and i think i might use it still because divine purpose proc rate seems kinda bad and being a healer i hate relying on rng/procs that are super low. but overall i really am still enjoying pally there are just a few tweaks i think that could make it even better :slight_smile:

4 Likes

Not a huge deal, but curious about the mana cost for a few abilities specifically for ret.

-Crusader Strike costs 2400 mana (12% baseline) and is our only offensive spell with a mana cost. Intended, or possibly meant for holy only? CS has no mana cost for either spec on live. Also consider the protection counterpart HoTR has no mana cost on beta.

-Divine Toll costs 3000 mana (15% baseline) despite Judgment itself (and Avenger’s Shield for prot) having no mana cost. Holy’s version in this case is a minor mana increase (2800 for Holy Shock vs. 3000 for Divine Toll). I’ve only tested Kyrian so far, but from what I’ve seen there is no resource cost for the other paladin covenant abilities.

10 Likes

Please make Holy Avenger and Ashen Hallow have their CD reset after a raid encounter.

15 Likes

Retribution Thoughts:

Empyrean power doesn’t feel good with anything below 50% increased damage and a low proc rate. At less than 50% increased damage the Divine Storm is no longer hitting anywhere close to the damage of a Templar’s Verdict, which has generally been how these Divine Storm procs have worked in the past. Some people have expressed that it being tied to crusader strike is a good change, but I’m not sold on it. Crusader Strike is one of our lowest priority attacks even with the proc, which means we won’t see it very often unless it gets a massively buffed proc chance. I think the way it works in BfA isn’t a problem, and it’s not very often that procs get overwritten.

Consecration is a dead button that barely even finds moments of use as filler. We have enough rotational abilities as it is, and as it stands most of our covenant abilities are also an additional rotational ability. There just isn’t space for a ham-fisted new spell that doesn’t interact with holy power. It doesn’t even have an aoe niche it can fill because the damage is so low. I don’t appreciate the “we’re unpruning spells but not gonna actually make them work with the spec” mentality.

Our holy power generators hit for almost nothing. I’ve found melee swings to be my second highest source of damage outside spenders, aside from maybe Hammer of Wrath. I do like that Templar’s Verdict is a large hit, but I think it’s become a bit too extreme in recent expacs.

With the removal of our Heart of the Crusader passive, Divine Steed is now slower when not in Crusader Aura…which is basically always. I don’t see why the paladin can’t retain the passive and also have Crusader Aura on top, or if you really want the paladin to benefit from the aura, just increase the base speed of Steed and remove its interaction with Crusader Aura.

I think the player base’s stance on Retribution Aura is pretty clear, but I’ll add my voice to it being terrible. It will potentially massively increase our wings uptime with the Mad Paragon legendary effect, which I think will be hard, if not impossible, to balance.

Covenant Abilities:

Vanquishers Hammer sucks. I don’t have any nice words for it. I hate that it’s a single target and very slight cleave gain disguised as an aoe increase. It actually does nothing to increase our aoe, and I think a lot of people could be misled by the fact that it procs a Divine Storm. The holy power cost does not work, at all. I had more fun and a smoother rotation completely ignoring the ability than trying to work it into the rotation.

Ashen Hallow has so many negatives mechanically that it’s actually a pain to list them all. It’s a single target, ground based DoT, with a 4 minute CD and a cast time. And it does shadow damage, so it has zero synergy with our mastery. Please change this, it’s such a bizarre ability.

Blessing of Seasons is still going to lead to “degenerate” play of rotating it with 4-8 paladins for permanent 50% cd reduction on any given player of choice, or even multiple players with 25% cd reduction. This is absurdly strong. I’d suggest making them seals for use on the paladin only if you must continue down this dark path, and make them not overwrite each other so weird things don’t happen with autumn reducing its own cd.

From the perspective of Ret, all of the covenant abilities feel SUPER phoned in and uninspired. It simply isn’t fun to press any of them aside from maybe Blessing of Autumn. If you compare them to the closest thing we’ve had in another expansion, Wake of Ashes, they’re not even in the same universe of how fun they are to use.

Also, it seems like we’re trying to have each covenant ability have its own niche, but it feels like 3 out of 4 are focused on being almost purely single-target gains. Could we get a little more variety?


Whew. I probably forgot some things, but I’ll come back if I think of them.
And before I sign off, please exchange Blade of Justice for Exorcism, thanks!

31 Likes

The gameplay loop of the holy paladin is, in my opinion, perfectly fine if a bit slow due to the lack of secondaries. The (re)addition of holy power feels smooth and fits in well. That said, there are some issues I have.

This is to be expected but for the sake of discourse holy paladins are weak numbers-wise right now. It truly does feel like WoG is our only real heal right now.
On that note, LoD is utterly worthless to cast, even in AoE situations. On retail its relative lack of weight is acceptable due to its short cooldown, but with a 3 HP cost it just isn’t justifiable to cast.

The Holy Infusion change is terrible and should absolutely be reverted. The implication from a design standpoint, I imagine, is to get us to cast HL more often. HL is so inherently slow though that it disrupts the flow of holy paladin gameplay (CS and HS to build HP, use WoGs, spend 1 GCD on blessings, etc.-- fast-paced and melee-oriented with lots of instant cast spells). The only other option then is to FH but with the new mana costs it’s very prohibitive. In fact, with the new mana costs reverting to the old infusion would reward players with agency when they weave casted spells depending on the situation (do I need to conserve mana but still have to push out healing? HL. Do I need throughput? FL.). As it stands I either just default to FH or use LotM instead.

For the talents, I think a few of them could be switched around at least though I’m not sure yet what I would switch.
Beacons are much stronger now which makes glimmer kinda the odd one out but for dungeons specifically it still feels good to use.
Even with the nerf to HS I still think Crusader’s Might will be favored-- less because you want HS to heal but more because you want HS to build HP.
I think DP and Awakening should both be 20%, given how less often WoG/LoD are cast in beta compared to HS/LoD in retail.
Saved by Light seems like the odd one out given the tier its in. I do not see anyone ever taking this one.

On covenants I feel like there is hardly a choice. Even ignoring soulbinds due to number balancing Kyrian’s Divine Toll is by far the most versatile. It uses a rotational ability that can be enhanced by both a talent (glimmer) AND a legendary (shock barrier). I believe Interactions and synergies like these are going to be what determines the prime covenant of choice for many people and it’s clear to me that the Kyrian power is stacked.
The issues with LoD hurt the viability of Vanquisher’s Hammer but my biggest issue with it is the 1 HP cost. As it stands I’d rather hoard as much HP as I can for more WoGs. Given the nature of healing one might also want to hold off using the hammer until a particular point in a fight. I imagine this spell was designed for DPS/tanks as a rotational spell rather than a CD-based one like a healer might see it.
As far as Venthyr is concerned I feel its ability is too constraint by its CD: essentially 15 HSs over 30 seconds but on a 4 minute CD? And it only affects one friendly? With a CD like that I feel like it should be a super Healing Rain instead.
The jury is still out on the Fae blessings. The CDR one seems really good but I’d be interested in seeing the hard math on how the blessings as a whole can be valued. I don’t think there’s much napkin math that can be done in this regard, specially since it can be used to buff other players so only time will tell.

9 Likes

I’m not crazy about Shield of the Righteous on Holy Paladin. I like having a damage spender for holy power, but having just picked up a 2-handed intellect weapon, its become unusable, since we need a shield. I’d rather have a (appropriately scaled-down) version of Templar’s Verdict, or some other damage spender for Holy Paladin that doesn’t require the use of a shield.

4 Likes

Wanted to update on Divine Toll for Ret. It appears to have a bonus effect now that increases its damage by 100%. This puts it in a much more favorable spot. Ashen Hallow and Blessing of Seasons still remain an issue though.

13 Likes

Holy Shock with legendaries like Shock Barrier and talents like Crusader’s Might is going to take over the class again, causing paladins to completely disregard the infusion of light mechanic.

Holy Light and Flash of Light are not the spells that need to cost more, Holy Shock and Crusader Strike do. The way holy paladin mana is currently tuned, the same mistake with mistweaver and holy paladin mana with their secondary resource in the past is being repeated.

5 Likes

Hey guys, me again. Playing Holy more and well. It’s not fun. I honestly think we need to look at why Holy is or was fun for many people on live. I’m not going to talk about numbers as those can be tuned. Just overall feel and buttons that feel fun to push.

On live if you take gear and AZ Traits out of the equation the talents work well together. I have 3 pally’s on live and 2 I made fresh in BFA. (all felt fun leveling all the way up, Holy spec!) A LOT OF FUN!

Live: Divine Purpose “has” synergy with Glimmer. Giving us a “FAST” fun play-style, for healing and dmg. Throw Crusader’s Might on it and it becomes even more fast and more fun. But you don’t even have to take Divine Purpose or Crusaders Might for things to feel fun. MANA allowed us to just “PLAY”. We need to find this feeling within the Holy Power System.

For me, this comes down to a few things with the current Holy Paladin in Beta. Synergy. Yup, I used that word in my previous post. There is absolutely no synergy between Holy Power-Spells-Talents. Furthermore, the changes to a few talents has made this “feel and play” even worse.

Divine Purpose: The new version is bad. Please return it to the old version even if it’s at the current Lower 15% proc rate. It will help the class feel better and help it generate Holy Power. Holy shock is the fun bread and butter spell and shares synergy with Glimmer. That fun proc was taken away.

Light of Dawn: After returning Divine Purpose to its former glory. Make this cost mana again. Then make Crusader’s Strike cost no mana again, this is just silly. (Also, please buff LoD back to BFA AZ Trait status. Don’t make us a Lego with 1 AZ Trait effect. That’s doesn’t feel Legendary.)

Gonna say it again. Judgment needs to generate 1 Holy power. Even with the Lego that reduces Holy Power spender by one, the build-up feels bad.

Infusion of Light: New version is not good. Taking .4 seconds off a FoL is silly. If it’s not going to buff FoL, then why include it in? I’d rather it buff Holy Light 30% “current beta" and reduce Holy Light’s cast time (live). So we can actually cast HL as a melee healer. And create some synergy with WoG

Talent Tree: Again… Move Glimmer to 25. Move Divine Purpose to 50. Move Saved by the Light into the Recycle Bin and hopefully it can come out the other end with something that will compete on row 40. It’s a 1 min internal timer average heal. How is that Saved by the Light?

16 Likes

Ret Paladin Talent Feedback
I’m going to try and approach this purely from a design angle, I don’t want to comment on whether or not talent X provides enough DPS. I want to comment on whether or not talent X is an interesting choice that fits ret paladins. That being said if I feel tuning is particularly important to the way a talent works I’ll comment on it (i.e Justicars Vengeance)

Row 1
Execution Sentence: This is a great talent, an on-use that allows smart players to think about when they want to boost their damage.
Righteous Verdict: Also fantastic! Passive options are important and this talent still allows savvy players to garner more benefits from the passive if they pay attention to it.
Zeal: Again passives are important and although this one requires no babysitting like righteous verdict may, I think that is good to have a “don’t think about it” passive. The problem is it is boring. You forget you’re even running it, and you don’t notice 30% faster swings.

Row 2
Empyrean Power: The clear m+ choice for the row, nothing wrong with it, I am glad ret is getting some of the tools back that made it so good in BFA m+.
Blade of Wrath: I like this talent, it’s a passive that doesn’t require much from you, yet you aren’t going to forget you’re running it because it resets ur blade, Unlike Zeal which you will entirely forget about.
Fires of Justice: I think this talent would be a lot more interesting if it made your next generator generate one more holy power. This would allow savvy players to track and not over-cap holy power with the talent while maintaining the flavor of the talent which essentially gives you a bonus holy power as it is.

Row 3
This is the utility row, it’s great. Different options for pvp depending on the team composition you’re running.

Row 4
Eye for an Eye: This seems great on paper until you realize how strong the CD reduction on Unbreakable Spirit is and how infrequent physical damage is becoming in the game. It will likely continue to see very low pick-rates among rets. Which is unfortunate.
Cavalier: Awesome choice to give us mobility and reward a player for understanding when they won’t need as many defensive. For example, in 3v3 arenas, if I read my opponents correctly and predict they WON’T be targeting me, then cavalier is a reward for my prediction. I like talents like this, in defensive rows.
Unbreakable Spirit: It’s really strong, it gives rets more defensives which we really need and my only complaint is it pushed Eye for an Eye out as a possible choice. I like the talent, it’s probably going to keep seeing huge pick-rates among rets.

Row 5
Seraphim: I want to assess seraphim independent from inquisition, as the 2 talents can feel weird together. Seraphim is similar to Execution Sentence, I really like designs like this. Damage windows that skillful players will make meaningful decisions about when to press.
Holy Avenger: Super fun talent, very impactful long cooldowns are cool. That being said it doesn’t line up with wings, so I’m not sure anyone is going to pick it. Making this a 2minute CD and then tuning around this being a 2 minute cooldown would probably be a good choice.
Divine Purpose: Great passive option that you won’t forget about like you would forget about Zeal.

Row 6
Healing Hands: I’m not sure why anyone would pick this talent, I’m assuming it is a placeholder since word of glory went basline. This is just a really unwhelming and boring talent.
Justicar’s Vengeance: What a COOL ability, it’s a 5 holy power KNOCK-OUT, the problem is historically it barely hits harder than a templar in a stun. I’m not sure you can ever make this talent good, without making it absolutely oppressive in pvp. It’s either going to wreck people in stuns or do no damage and never be picked. I just don’t know how you tune this ability especially in a world with Holy Avenger. Maybe replace the talent with another healing option.
Selfless Healer: Good talent, pretty simple. Your only real healing option on the healing row.

Row 7
Inquisition: High skill cap on-use talent of the row, that rewards players who successfully track and plan out their holy power. Good talent.
Crusade: Fun talent that makes you a speed demon during wings, I like this as a passive option.
Sanctified Wrath: An incredibly boring talent you won’t even realize you took. Boring talents like Zeal are more passable in row 1, but row 7 should be really cool stuff and this is just boring. Lights Decree was ret favorite in BFA because it gave us the damage to compete in cleave, not because it was fun or interesting. Why not baseline this effect? Why not tune around Rets having this cleave and make a fun and interesting talent choice for us?

14 Likes

So far with my experience with beta having done dungeons and messing around on dummies for a fair bit I think while there are a decent number of changes which improved Retribution I believe that the spec overall has gotten worse going from BFA to Shadowlands.

Good:

Wake of Ashes: I think the addition to this ability to the core Retribution kit was a very good move as it’s sort of been an unmoved talent slot for practically the entire duration of BFA. It’s a cool looking ability and it’s design mechanically of doing good damage and giving holy power on a moderate cd is great and helps provide good bursts of damage for retribution in between waiting for wings to come off cd.

Hammer of Wrath: Yet another good addition for pretty much the same reason, it took up a talent slot that more or less went unchanged for the entirety of the expansion and it feels good to have a part of the core rotation allowing us to pick other options.

Level 40 & 50 talent rows: I think for the most part these rows have a bunch of great abilities on them that can offer diverse playstyles for ret, and while I have gripes with some of the options in terms of numbers I think they’re all unique abilities that are a great fit.

Legendary Powers: I think most of the Retribution specific legendary options are great, I think I welcome the divine storm, final verdict and mad paragon legendary powers with open arms as they all either have a clear purpose or introduce cool mechanics like an emphasis on using hammer of wrath on a high priority.

Needs Work:

Vanqusher’s Hammer: While I think the overall design of this ability is very cool I think it’s underwhelming considering it has a holy power cost so in scenario’s where you build to 3 holy power, you spend 1 on vanquishers hammer then build another to spend it on Templar’s Verdict. I think with the circumstances the class can fall under in terms of how the rotation especially early on with low haste can lead to us having downtime or no feasable way to build to 5 holy power it feels bad to spend 1 holy power, generate 1 more just to spend it properly. I’ve also strongly believed for a while that perhaps making vanquishers hammer a 2 minute CD and providing 4 stacks would make the Covenant ability much more interesting to me as it could be used together with wings to give a good burst option and give us the ability to cleave while technically doing single target damage in the most important damage window retribution paladin has. I think this could also justify having a higher holy power cost if removing it’s cost is out of the question.

Divine Toll: I think this ability has been the most fun and most rewarding to play with in m+ and multi target scenarios, it pretty much operates like a second Wake of Ashes, but on single target this ability feels absolutely atrocious to use. People in past have suggested that the ability should get a shorter cd based on number of targets it hasnt hit, so if divine toll hits one target you gain 1 holy power and an extra judgment debuff on the target, but it’s cooldown properly reflects the gain. and equally so for 5 holy power and 5 judgment debuffs it has it’s intended 5 minute cd.

Blessing of Seasons: I think this ability sort of makes me sour because I originally believed after the rework it could be used in ways for Retribution players to properly express their ability to play and be cognizant of their surroundings and synergize with their team, instead this ability moreso becomes something along the lines of "hey if you use spring/winter on actual utility, you will be punished heavily because now you have to wait to use autumn with wings because of how good autumn synergizes with wings and mad paragon legendary.

Ashen Hallow: I think a four minute cd is far too long for something like this and I think a majority of Retribution players would rather this cooldown take a duration cut and be on a two minute cd than try to deal with a 4 minute cooldown, which essentially can make this an ability used twice a fight, of which can be especially punishing if the boss involves heavy movement. I also think the ability having no type of priority system of who or what it damages is very bad as it can repeatedly choose a target that has a damage reduction in a pack of mobs and effectively do less damage as a high commitment 4 minute cd, Id prefer if the ability either did aoe damage or splitting damage to compensate for that.

Shield of Vengeance: This cooldown I’ve pretty much thought forever was a bad replacement for Divine Protection and I sort of hope every day to wake up to a build where Divine Protection returns and Shield of Vengeance gets sent to spell jail, I’m not sure where to start but for a two minute cd 30% max hp shield seems extremely low even if the reward at the end is damage, in BFA it was changed to always explode for the damage it absorbed which sort of made it a less toxic cd to use as most of the time you felt unrewarded or more inclined to take extra damage to commit the full absorb but I think with much of the melee specs having % damage reduction I think replacing this ability with Divine protection would be a welcome addition to Retribution’s kit. While we do have an eight second immunity that renders us completely mobile and able to attack at full damage, in more instances than retribution can feel they are in more danger at times because of a 5 minute CD that we have to sacrifice a mobility option (of which we are poor in that department) to lower to 3.5 minutes.

Mobility: This has been an issue for literally forever I feel like with retribution and I think it’s time to finally make the commitment to adding an entire talent row committed to mobility, or significantly improve the class’s mobility in order to make the class able to compete with the likes of other melee like warriors, dh, rogue, monk, feral, shaman, and hunter. I understand there is a conduit that allows for a longer duration on divine steed but I am very skeptical that anyone will be that willing to give up damage options with conduit slots in order to take the finesse or endurance slot that allows for this mobility, I think this was yet another poor trade off, that while other classes get mobility for what seems like free and have full options for damage available to take, were left with a tempting option at the cost of dps, same scenario can be given for our level 35 tree, an example which I believe is perfect for this is N’zoth, on that fight during early progression had very telegraphed times to use bubble for two sets of thought harvester soaks, which pretty much mandated we go unbreakable spirit to meet the CD requirement to make both soaks, so on a super mobile fight like nzoth, we had to be very picky with our movement and where we used divine steed, it didn’t feel great to see other classes fly across the room meanwhile I used my divine steed earlier due to corruption slows to meet one set of basher tentacles and now I’m the sole person taking a warlock gateway to get to the basher tentacle about to spawn on time.

Consecration: This ability feels incredibly useless I’m not sure what to say, the tuning on this ability feels really bad and there is no reward for using this ability as it doesnt award the player with any holy power for using it, so while it does bad damage and generates no holy power it’s become retributions single target filler for when everything else is on CD, on aoe it’s damage is nothing significant either, you need a sizeable pack in order for it to make any sort of impact. not to mention that I think while consecration might be “iconic” paladin ability to some I find it very bothersome to use as a melee player who is more accustomed to following mobs not guiding them, if it did anything worthwhile (which it doesnt) I’d imagine it would feel horrible to see tanks move mobs out of your consecration as soon as it was dropped due to some of the built in tank movement affixes in keys like sanguine, raging, necrotic and etc. I’d much rather go back to a more recently introduced ability in Legion, Divine Hammers, so atleast even if it’s useless, when a tank moves and I have it up I can be at ease knowing that it’s still tickling the mobs I’m chasing.

Eye for an Eye: I imagine this talent serves good purpose in pvp but in all honesty in most pve content whether its raids or m+, practically nothing from this expansion has done aoe physical damage that would make this ability usable in any sense. I’d like to see some sort of rework of this ability that would make it actually competitive with the talent row it resides in.

Justicar’s Vengeance: I’m not sure what to say here, it’s been two expansions, and this ability has to be approached at some point right? it does literally nothing and has no business belonging in a tree with two other “healing” talents. If it’s actually a dps gain, you can expect most if not all retribution paladins will have it slotted, but instead of setting that precedent it’s gone unused and unchanged for going onto three expansions now.

Healing Hands: This talent has very poor design I think it’s reward doesn’t justify it being taken simply put, it takes a cooldown that is very good but used maybe once a pull and makes it so you could potentially use it twice a pull maybe three. I’d rather this talent be used for something more interesting and potentially more rewarding to compete with (X talent slot that isnt justicar’s vengeance) and selfless healer, perhaps effecting Word of Glory? I’d be interested to see it do something like heal more targets or do increased healing while incurring a CD or a lazy approach could be make casting WoG have a chance to refund 3 holy power, essentially giving you a free word of glory.

Empyrean Power: I think from the get go I believe this spell when it was an azerite trait should’ve gone into the base Retribution kit as it was a fun way of adding RNG to the class from it’s base while not being severely impactful to the damage Retribution can do like Vision Major did especially in Nyalotha. I also think that this talent simply doesnt fit into the row it’s currently placed in, and I’m not sure what row I’d put it in, but having to pick a chance at a free aoe spender versus two abilities that directly impact holy power generation is something I don’t think should exist. I believe the row should be focused on holy power generation instead of adding more globals. Especially after the proc chance nerf to this talent, it feels especially punishing knowing I could pick an option with more consistency or an option that is directly buffed by a currently existing conduit, it also feels like a lose lose in aoe rotation prioritizing CS over spells like blade/judge, hammer of wrath just to fish out procs, consider maybe reverting this ability back to all spells instead of exclusively cs.

Wake of Ashes: I know I mentioned this in the good section, but between it going from a talent to being a baseline ability, it broke a few ribs falling into the trees while descending from heaven, it received a large single target damage buff which is nice, but suffered having about 40% reduced damage to secondary targets. People I’ve spoke to have mentioned that this is an okay change because alot of other classes suffered the same fate with reduced secondary target damage, but this ability also suffered with losing two holy power on gain. it sort of took away from how impactful wake of ashes could be knowing that this button could give you five holy power to work with which could be then used to do a myriad of things like commit to a TV, build again, and spend on another TV, and this can be replaced with divine storm and word of glory, it felt nice to know this ability could be used in a pinch. If secondary target damage won’t return I hope dearly that either the CD of Wake is reduced to around 30 seconds to atleast make synergy with wings and execution sentence a lot better, or to return the ability to its 5 holy power glory.

Holy Avenger: My problem with this ability isn’t a big one, but I think a three minute cd doesnt fit at all with this ability, unless there is some long con being played which will make wings a 1:30 cd I literally cannot see why this CD can’t be in perfect synergy with when wings is used unless there is some hidden goal here like synergizing this ability to be used on cooldown with execution sentence, seraphim and inquisition when it needs to be refreshed. For the most part I think most rets are going to see this ability come of CD and proceed to not care about it for another minute while they wait for their 3rd wings to come off cd. More or less what I’m asking for here is either make the CD 4 minutes and buff it, or make the CD 2 minutes and nerf it, 3 minutes in it’s current state makes the ability weird.

TL;DR - Wake, Legendaries, Hammer of Wrath, level 40/50 rows are good, class specific covenant abilities, Shield of Vengeance, Mobility, Consecration, Eye for an Eye, Empyrean Power, Healing Hands, Holy Avenger and Justicar’s Vengeance are bad.

Thanks for the work you guys have been putting in so far going into shadowlands I hope the experience can be significantly improved with the feedback provided by all of us when the game finally launches.

Also PS. please add a glyph that makes my divine steed a Favorited mount.

25 Likes

Hey everyone, my name is Huckleberrie (This is only a char to also post on US since it gets frequented more often) and I am currently able to test Retribution Paladin on the Beta servers. I am maining Ret Paladin since the end of WoD and enjoy it to this day. I wanted to give some feedback and my thoughts about a few abilities, talents and the current covenant choices that could lead to some needed improvements.

Base Talents and Abilities

Seraphim and Inquisition

The problematic with these two talents persists and got recognized by Blizzard but awaits to be properly addressed. As beta progresses, we are still awaiting a meaningful change with those two talents and the possibility of them being a “valid” choice if combined.

Holy Avenger

The tripled Holy Power generation seems like overkill generation-wise for Ret. It makes Wake overcap by 4 Holy Power (Generates 9) and Blade of Justice overcap by 1 (Generates 6) and that is only when these two abilities are used at 0 Holy Power, which is not a regular case when in longer fights. In my opinion tuning it down to doubling the generation and giving us an amplifier at the same time (At least for Ret) could address the issue of overcapping and not take away the Builder – Spender – Builder – Spender gameplay. The amplifier could increase our damage output by giving secondary stats or flat damage to a certain builder or our spenders (just an idea).

Empyrean Power

Since Empyrean Power only triggers from Crusader Strike gives it a rather low proc rate from the get-go. Nerfing the proc chance of it to 15% (same as Divine Purpose) makes it even rarer and is severely low in my opinion. The damage buff that it grants is fine and shouldn’t be too high.

Blade of Justice

Blade of Justice is still not interacting with our Mastery because it’s a physical attack rather then a holy attack (Tooltip even calls it a “blade of light”).

Covenant Abilities

Divine Toll

The 100% dmg buff helps bringing it on par with the other Covenants, but its still lacking behind in single target fights. Divine Toll also lacks interaction with Judgement focused items, talents, etc. (e.g. Zeal and the Judgement Legendary effect) which is very unfortunate.

The toolkit of Holy and Protection Paladins works well with Divine Toll, but as of now this interaction is missing for Retribution. It could greatly improve the feeling of the ability.

Ashen Hallow

The cast time is a real problem in my opinion because it heavily disrupts the flow of the current Retribution gameplay and serves no real purpose. On top of that the cooldown duration of Ashen Hallow feels terribly long for the meager value that it provides, compared to other abilities with a shorter cooldown.

Ashen Hallow provides some form of class interaction, because it enables us to use HoW outside of wings. This is a fine addition in my opinion, because it helps us having some damage output outside of wings. But as stated above the long cooldown duration makes this kind of unimpactful.

Furthermore, laying down a massive zone (maybe even too massive) and only dealing single target damage and healing feels weird and wrong to me. The random ticking single target damage and healing from the zone also feels like a bad choice. I think that it takes away too much control making it a questionable choice with mechanics like Bursting, Bolstering, etc. implemented.

Blessing of Seasons

Even after the “rework” it feels like an overall bad ability to use.

Blessing of Summer has the same problematics that Blessing of Might had in Legion, you either buff yourself to get the damage value or buff the person in your group that deals the most damage in which case you yourself are losing damage. Same can be said for Blessing of Autumn, which can also lead to desyncing on-use trinket with burst abilities due to its CDR.

Blessing of Winter and Spring both feel like a buffer, so you are not constantly in your damage boosting Seasons.

The overall concept of Blessings of Season doesn’t strike me as a good mechanic for Ret in general. In Raid and M+ scenarios it makes us feel more like a supporter class then a DPS class compared with the other Covenant abilities and can lead to frustration.

Vanquishers Hammer

By far the most boring of all the Covenant abilities to use as it doesn’t impact our gameplay in any shape or form. In AoE scenarios it’s not even a free Divine Storm but a free Templars Verdict as you would regularly cast a Divine Storm and not a Templars Verdict.

During the latest iteration of changes, a 1 Holy Power cost got added which reduced its efficiency even more from a free Divine Storm to a 2/3 Divine Storm.

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The issue lies with infusion of light. No one wants to cast a strong 2.5 second heal. If something that powerful is needed odds are the person you’re trying to heal will die within that time frame.

If they reverted infusion of light back to how it is on live and tuned shock barrier along with the infusion of light legendary we might have an incentive to hard cast.

As it stands right now, with infusion of light being trash, holy avenger being amazing holy power generation and how strong word of glory is there is very reason to ever hard cast at all. Looks like adding holy power back is biting blizzard in the behind.

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Hey Mbdtf, I actually think shield of vengeance is a stronger defensive than divine protection. It absorbs 30% of our hp, in order for 20%-DR-divine protection to reduce that much damage taken we would have to lose 150% of our health bar.

Shield of vengance is proactive and provide offensive utility. I think its actually one of the better designed ret abilities.

The issue is divine protection is a 1 minute CD usable in stuns and we have to pre-use Shield of Vengeance before a stun AND talent into shield of vengeance in order for it to come down off 2 minutes. I think it just needs a lower cooldown.

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Shield of Vengeance is worse than Divine Protection in everyway.

-Longer CD
-On GCD
-Damage capped

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This is a worse solution since it would create a weird feedback loop between physical damage reduction and healing.

1 Like

divine protection is better than sov in every single way especially in regards to the cd, odds are in raid and m+ encounter you’re gonna want something that is up more frequently even if its “less effective” (which its pretty much not). I think maybe the only other class in the game that has an absolutely egregious defensive for pve purposes is arms warrior with die by the sword.

direct offensive ability built into a defensive ability is not good design, defensives should enable players to play greedy through the design of said cd, when direct damage comes into play eventually it could evolve into weird situations eventually like it did with monks and karma.

I think if there’s a middle ground to be found I’d enjoy SoV getting a reduced cd baseline, not as a talent option which allows sov to be used more frequently, and I’d rather lose the damage portion if it means it can be off gcd and used more often. take away the damage I could care less

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I actually mentioned the differences in CD. Besides that you’re not entirely correct. There are situations where an absorb plays out better than a DR. For example, if you are already low and you press Divine Protection you will get significantly less value than pressing SoV low.

You need to consider the totality of the abilities, the context in which they could be used and the inherent differences between them. Of course there are situations where DP is better and there are also situations where SoV is better. If the cooldowns were both 1 minute, I’d consider shield of vengeance a much stronger defensive, regardless of GCD.