FEEDBACK: Paladin Class Changes

Was 30 yard/holy damage generating 1 holy power. Had a chance to reset on autoattacks

8 Likes

Basically blades of justice but holy damage instead (though ret’s didn’t have +holy damage back then since that’s a legion thing) and generated 1 less holy power. I mean, just change blade of justice to do holy damage (so it can be balanced properly) and give a glyph option that changes the animation. Fixed?

5 Likes

make it 20-30 yard and I’m good with it

10 Likes

Personally I never got the excitement over Exorcism or what people liked about it in terms of visuals. I always found it visually boring… Like, here is video footage of Exorcism being cast in both MoP and WoD.


Its just a small little gold spark, its hardly noticeable and I am 99% sure Preach runs with max graphical settings so that’s about as intense as it gets. Its the one thing I just do not understand about the Paladin community, especially those saying its more visually impressive than Blade of Justice. What’s so visually impressive about a small gold twinkle?

I would make the argument that Holy Wrath has a more impressive visual than Exorcism.

I mean, I won’t argue that its not brought up all the time on the Paladin forums because it is but I just don’t understand what the appeal is… Visually it would be, by far, the least visually impressive spell out of the entire toolkit and to say that its more visually impressive than Blade of Justice always came off as a bit silly to me. I know visuals are always subjective but I just really do not get the appeal of Exorcism. It didn’t have a unique or overall massive visual to it, it was just a small gold sparkle on the target, so I really just do not grasp the love the Paladin Class Forums have over it.

Call it me being cynical but I always read the Exorcism arguments on the Paladin Class Forums as having more of an undertone of wanting to have another longer range damage spell back.

14 Likes

I really liked it with the glyph. I still think blade of justice is a weak holy power builder. Like Lucavias said, make a glyph and change blade of justice to do holy damage. Personally it should be a mid range spell 20-30yard like Exo was.

9 Likes

Not a big paladin player anymore. But the appeal Exorcism brought for me back in the day was the sound and not the visuals. I can still hear that radiant bang like sound in the back of my head when I think of Exorcism.
I don’t think it should be brought back though, Blade is visually more appealing.

15 Likes

I feel if they went that route it would be a Talent or Shadowlands Legendary since Glyphs don’t really do anything outside of visual stuff anymore.

It would be kinda cool of there was a talent to convert Crusader Strike and Blade of Justice over to Holy Damage though especially considering Ret’s mastery. Maybe something like “Sanctified Blades” or “Divine Blades” or something though maybe that’s why they are not holy damage because of the mastery. Idk, I am not even going to try and pretend I am a numbers guy haha.

And see, this is what the Cynical side of me keeps saying, that those wanting Exo back really want another mid to long range spell. Which, don’t get me wrong, I get with Pally mobility and everything haha.

I mean, I guess at the end of the day liking a visual or a sound is subjective and if yall liked it that is all that matters, right :slight_smile:

I honestly don’t clearly remember what it sounded like… its been too long, and those videos for visual comparison don’t really help remind me what it sounded like. Did its sound ever change from Vanilla up to when it was removed?

4 Likes

Some thoughts about Retribution Paladin

Firstly the removal of Kings and Wisdom. Paladins have had Kings since vanilla, and even though there are other blessings in the game, I would say the removal of Kings is like a loss of identity. Currently with all paladins able to bring auras to the table it feels difficult to distinguish a certain utility that Retribution alone can bring to a group. With the return of raid wide buffs like warrior shout and arcane intellect, and given the current array of auras and their current effects, I feel as though there is barely any interaction between a group and a paladin. I feel as though at the very least Blessing of Kings providing a buff of any kind is essential to the paladin fantasy, especially retribution given that Holy can empower their auras. Without blessing buffs to share between, if you are grouped with any other paladin: only one devotion works, concentration is niche if there is no effect to prevent, retribution doesn’t help the group and if you’re not using mounts crusader doesn’t offer much. Its disappointing to lose the ability to buff other players now matter how meaningful the buff actually was.

This brings me to my next point about auras.

Retribution aura doesn’t feel helpful in any way, and if you’re soloing any content it provides no benefit whatsoever. Allies dying should never be the trigger for an ability, it doesn’t match the class fantasy well and it feels bad to play around. Retribution aura isn’t an ability i’d like to sit in waiting for someone to die, nor should it be something one would have to switch on at the last second to gain a self buff. It feels like unhealthy game play to balance between saving an ally or eyeing their health so you can flick it on right before they die. I believe it would be healthy if Retribution aura returned to form as a damage reflection of some kind or maybe some other effect but at its core it should benefit the group, not the just the player. Additionally, I think devotion aura could be just a tad stronger, 3% feels like a strange number and I get that devotion aura is supposed to be a big cooldown for Holy with aura mastery, but just the same. I think a return of blessings of some kind and a new effect for retribution aura, such that it benefits the group and also has use in solo play would be healthy for the spec and well as the class, making each paladin feel capable of bringing something helpful, instead of feeling left out because Devotion is already active or Concentration is already active.

Some small things about some abilities

Shield of Vengeance feels very weak. Its constantly broken in just a few gcd’s in duels and other players don’t seem to mind the backlash damage, and in dungeons it doesn’t feel good to press as a first line of defense.

The Zeal sound effect sounds an awful lot like the interrupt sound effect, not really important, but it sounds like interrupts are being used when they aren’t. Also the additional holy damage from the boosted auto attacks feels very low, I suspect this could be tuned in the future.

Wake of Ashes: Given that it generates less Holy Power and the cleave damage is reduced, I think a reduction in cooldown would be justified.

Word of Glory doesn’t feel good to press at all, if we’re sacrificing a damage spender for a healing spender it should at least heal more then flash of light.

Divine Steed has always felt a little bit short of a fine movement ability for paladin. I think a slightly lower cooldown or one additional second of speed would be healthy for class balance.

Seraphim feels a little wierd to use given its current duration and cooldown, it feels difficult to line it up with something meaningful.

Justicar’s Vengeance just isn’t worth using in its current form, it wasn’t used in Legion all that much, wasn’t used in BfA and probably won’t be picked in Shadowlands, this talent needs to be revisited, either buffed or reworked into something else.

Healing Hands: As others have stated it feels weird to have two abilities modify Lay on Hands, especially given that its on the same tier as Selfless Healer.

Sanctified Wrath looks good on paper, but feels undertuned.

Inquisition and Crusade: Inquisition is a fine talent, was viable in BfA and used well enough. Crusade irks me though. It was one of the best talents in Legion, and was used by nearly every high end raiding retribution paladin in BfA. I would hate for Crusade to eventually become the end all be all talent again for end game content. I think Inquisition and Sanctified Wrath could use a little help to remain strong against Crusade as gear scaled up as we move further along.

Divine Purpose: This spell feels almost good and helps smooth out the rotation, but would be a lot cooler if it chain procced like it used to or had a slightly higher chance to proc, even if the bonus damage was reduced.

48 Likes

What to you mean switch into? If this is how this ability goes live my group will need two paladins to see devo aura because I’ll be going into the fight with this on, I’m not wasting a gcd or two in order to gain a self buff. Thus the contradiction - this makes your very selfless toolkit suddenly pointless when you know you can get a self buff if you choose not to Sac, BoP, Freedom, LoH, selfless healer FoL, or WoG that target that’s about to die and relish in the free wings instead.

I think it does, at least I’m pretty certain I’ve gotten more than one proc in one of the previous iterations. I haven’t play much paladin this latest build.

2 Likes

I feel like Divine Toll for ret (and I guess prot too) should give 5 HP no matter how many mobs get hit. It’s awesome in an AoE pack, but on a boss or ST fight it is a waste of an ability (essentially a 1m CD judgment) and it really limits the flexibility of the covenant ability. They need to be able to be at least useable in every situation and a 1M CD judgment does not feel like a great addition to my toolkit.

30 Likes

Yes but if you’re the only paladin, the group will most certainly want you sitting a different aura, Devo is more helpful to the group then sitting Retribution. My thought process was that if there was another paladin with Devo on, your options for aura are limited and is why the old retribution passive and this aura have been called on for changes by other paladins as well as it being poorly designed and bad class flavor.

Could just be my own bad luck then, but i find that this ability ever since its change rarely procs twice back to back, I know i’ve seen it twice in a row on occasion, but in its WoD days and a portion of legion you could see 4-5 back to back sometimes. It created very exciting little moments.

7 Likes

Apparently the paladin toolkit is now all about them, so I won’t care what the group wants, I want wings.

Seriously though, Preach put out a video titled " New Covenant Class Spells, New Dungeon, New EVERYTHING - TDP" and in it one of the guys running with him is a paladin (he switches viewpoints throughout the video). During that video while watching from the paladin perspective the paladin gets about 3 procs in a row so it can definitely self trigger.

3 Likes

Still no changes on retribution paladin. I hope we will have a follow up on our spec.

17 Likes

wake of ashes : Either lower the CD to match its new HP generation, or revert back to 5 for 45 seconds.

Retribution Aura: For the love of god change this entirely. I don’t even care, surprise me!!! but not working off deaths!!! maybe it slows the casting time of those who use spells on you stacking and lasts 4 seconds or something like that. idk get crazy bois

hammer of wrath is a ability locked to execute range (without wings up) and does not feel anything like an execution ability…i fear with hunter and lock getting double death back each… while its baseline i’d like it to mean something too. I don’t need it to hit has hard as SW:D shadowburn or killshot but something definitely more than current amounts.

I agree with the others, divine protection could and possibly should be baseline.

32 Likes

The Venthyr covenant ability change was a step in the right direction, but the 4 min cd on it is far too long. If it needs nerf, nerf it, but lower the CD so it’s useful more often otherwise it just feels rather bad. It’s also extremely weak right now so I don’t think it needs a nerf unless other covenant abilities are too strong, 150% spell damage to an enemy 15 times in 4 minutes and 160% healing to an ally 15 times in 4 minutes vs something like vesper totem that can do 50% x 6 enemies 3 times per minute is nearly twice as effective and the healing component 100% x 6 allies 3 times per minute over 3 times as effective. Numbers of course can be tuned, but thus far this is probably the most lackluster covenant ability given that you can’t move the effect and it’s long cooldown.

On the changes to the fae covenant ability - again, maybe premature but the latest datamined changes will result in a paladin being turned into a bless-bot basically. Every 15 seconds they’ll have to hit this ability to keep all 4 affects up. I don’t have a good solution because if you increase the duration to say 5 minutes (and you truly want it limited to party) you’d have a situation where before a fight the paladin would get bounced around to buff everyone before landing in their final group even if that means the first group only gets 1-2 minutes of the buffs they’re still good especially during heroism.

Plus, I’m concerned that this gimps paladins that run M+'s together and choose the same covenant. Will two paladins that both bless aura of autumn reduce people’s cooldowns by 20%? If not, then they have the only covenant ability that penalizes the group for having multiple classes in the same covenant since it only takes 1 to keep all 4 buffs up (the other paladin’s covenant will be doing nothing). If their covenant ability is going to be a boon to the group it needs to be a stackable boon.

13 Likes

I’m not a fan of the new holy power system as it applies to holy paladins. Instead of getting new abilities or interesting, re-imagined spells to spend holy power on, we get a rehashed, underwhelming version of Word of Glory, and Light of Dawn.

My main problem with Word of Glory is that it’s a single target spell (a weak one, too). On a spec that already has an abundance of single target heals, this one feels out of place.
So that leaves Light of Dawn, an ability that we already have, but with a cost added to it. Can we at least get a larger range than 15 yards if we’re going to be using it as a spender? I guess this summarizes my thoughts on the spenders we have: in their current form, they don’t feel like “big moments” or payoffs to the spec’s playstyle like they should. I suppose I’m assuming that’s what spenders should feel like.

Personally, I feel less inclined to want to play the talent builds that focus on holy power generation/spending because of how underwhelming our spenders are.

Another problem I have is the Aura Mastery component of Retribution Aura. When exactly are we expected to use this in a party/raid scenario? My guess is never. If people are dying, the last thing I want my paladin to do is spend 2 GCDs (Ret Aura + Aura Mastery) to get a wings. I’d much rather camp devo aura and use AM for the big damage that might kill them in the first place. It’s degenerate to encourage us to gimp our party members’ survivability for our own benefit. Nevermind the dissonance in class fantasy around making a decision like that. Also, I’m unsure if it’s intended or not, but using Aura Mastery with Ret Aura does not extend the duration of Avenging Wrath, the cooldown—maybe it only works at the moment with Avenging Wrath procs from the aura, giving me more reason to never ever ever touch the sequence of Ret Aura + Aura Mastery.

On the subject of covenant abilities, I don’t want to beat a dead horse. It’s ridiculous to be thrown into the same pigeonhole we were put in at the start of Legion and BFA, where you feel locked into a single type of content (e.g. Legendaries, Artifacts, ridiculous reforge costs) and a single spec. I want the freedom to be able to do whatever type of content, whenever I want, and how I want. The philosophy of making a choice and sticking to it is completely antiquated in WoW with how versatile classes are now, and the diverse content available to us forces us to play multiple play styles, specs, classes, etc.

  • Venthyr
    This one feels really lame as a holy paladin, but fine for Prot and Ret. As a ret or prot paladin, sure, it feels good to be able to press Hammer of Wrath on whichever target, but as a healer I would really prefer if it augmented my healing. There’s nothing to say about the cooldown on it that hasn’t been said. 4 minutes is not even close to low enough to feel good about, despite how cool it looks.

  • Night Fae
    I’m really dreading the likelihood of having to take this in its current iteration. The 15 second cooldown on the ability means I have to blow a GCD every 15 seconds—boring maintenance that bloats up GCDs. I’ll hold my breath for when this spell is in the Alpha for testing before writing it off.

  • Kyrian
    I like it :slight_smile:

25 Likes

No one has really gotten any “major” changes yet. Lots of minor tuning but no major, sweeping, changes yet and there are plenty of specs that need them still.

Who knows what the development cycle is like but I get the feeling we wont be seeing any major class changes just yet. Still good to keep giving as much feedback as possible though I am right there with ya man. I really want to see some changes get put in as the core of the specs is kind of important to have in a good place haha.

Glad they are letting people play with the new systems earlier and what not, hopefully to avoid another Azerite issue, but I hope its not at the detriment of baseline classes.

14 Likes

I was able to get onto alpha and test out Hpal in a dungeon and I really enjoyed the class changes and the reworked Holy Power system. It adds something else to Hpal and changes up the healing which I found enjoyable.

The new Holy Avenger felt fun to use but I wish the cooldown was dropped to 2 minutes. I think it spices up the gameplay and I wish I could cast it more often. The Auras are an interesting idea but I’m not a fan of Retribution Aura. In the Necrotic Wake dungeon I would fall behind on healing when I didn’t have cooldowns and I would have to let a dps die so I could heal the tank back up during the wings proc. To me, Auras should be used to help a group out and Ret Aura doesn’t feel like that to me. Adding Hammer of Wrath adds a bit of variety to the dps rotation which is nice.

As for old stuff staying the same I wish Rule of Law was baseline, In my opinion its a core part of the class due to the mastery and I don’t think it should be a talent. The GCD’s on Wings and Holy Avenger feel terrible to deal with especially with the low amount of secondary stats on the alpha. I hope Glimmer doesn’t become the meta choice because I wasn’t the biggest fan of the playstyle during BFA. Light of the Martyr is an almost dead spell, bringing back the Maraad’s Dying Breath effect or something that buffed it to make it usable once and a while would be nice.

Other than that, Hpal felt like a lot of fun on the alpha and I’m excited to play with it some more.

11 Likes

Some feedback on the paladin:

  • Retribution Aura doesn’t feel good right now. The other auras give powerful benefits that no other class brings to the table, and Retribution Aura is basically just the Retribution Paladin’s Ultimate Retribution passive placed on the party. The tooltip isn’t clear whether everyone affected by the aura gets Avenger’s Wrath or just the paladin for whom the aura is a source, and even in the best possible scenario it feels kind of anti-paladin to have an aura where you’re kind of banking on a friend dying for a benefit. My solution would be to give all paladins the BFA Ultimate Retribution passive baseline and change Retribution Aura to something like the Ineffable Truth corruption, where anyone benefiting from the aura has a chance to hasten the return of their cooldowns whenever they take damage.

  • Shield of the Righteous being unpruned doesn’t feel good. For one, it was never a baseline paladin ability; it was always exclusively Protection. Furthermore, it’s not unpruning if you return an ability to a spec (Holy or Retribution) that they can’t use without a macro swap. It’s not particularly skillful to create a weapon swap macro to make use of this, and for those who lack that skill this is effectively a dead button for Retribution, the kind of thing that should have been pruned in the first place. My solution for this would be to take the Shield of the Righteous effect (minor damage plus a defensive benefit) and make it into a new ability that all paladins got so as not to disrupt the flow of the starter quests in Exile’s Reach. Then I would take Shield of the Righteous and make it into a Holy Power spender for Protection that was designed to dump Holy Power to deal heavy damage, the way that Protection Warriors have Revenge and Guardian Druids have Maul. It’s a glaring hole in the Protection Paladin toolkit.

  • Avenging Wrath is still a problem for Retribution in that Retribution’s entire playstyle makes them feel amazing to play for 20 seconds and then terrible to play for the next 2 minutes after that. This gameplay style was exactly why Retribution was a considered a poor damage spec in Uldir, and that perception only changed in Eternal Palace with the addition of the Light’s Decree azerite trait during Battle of Dazar’Alor AND the addition of Vision of Perfection. The best solution would likely be to adjust Retribution’s numbered so that Avenging Wrath’s cooldown window wasn’t the end-all be-all of damage, or so that Avenging Wrath happened more. I’d prefer if it moved to a 1 minute cooldown like Recklessness, but making the new Awakening talent that Holy just got baseline for all paladins would be really neat, class-defining, and an amazing boost to the paladin fantasy.

  • Word of Glory feels terrible to use. It hardly heals for anything (as Retribution, my flash of lights were healing for more). Hopefully this is fixed during Numbers Tuning.

  • Holy Power for Protection has a major issue in that unlike every other tank class in the game, Protection doesn’t have enough capacity to store an entire spender’s worth of Holy Power for a rainy day. For example, Shield Block and Revenge both costs less than 50 rage, so a Warrior is able to keep 50 rage in reserve in order to react to boss abilities. Druids, DKs, and Monks are all able to do the same. But because Paladins can only store 5 charges of Holy Power, once they use a Holy Power spender they have to use something like Hammer of the Righteous, wait 1 second for the GCD, and then use their next Holy Power spender. On bosses with “use Active Mitigation abilities or take huge damage” mechanics, such as Rezan, this can trash a paladin tank. My solution would be to increase the base amount of Holy Power that paladins can store to 6, or add a talent that does something similar.

  • Seraphim is in a weird spot for Retribution; it’s pretty clear that the Devs intend for Seraphim to be an ability all paladins can choose from, but in terms of what it does Seraphim is literally in the same niche as Inquisition. It is going to feel awful if there is a timeline where the best Retribution Paladin is "Generate 3 Holy Power, Seraphim, generate 3 Holy Power, Inquisition. That’s too much ramp-up time. My solution would be to drop Inquisition and add a talent with more interest there, or change Inquisition so its an attack that deals damage while buffing you (similar to fury’s Rampage automatically putting you into Enrage). There’s a version of Retribution where “Avenging Strike” is a thing that strikes the target for moderate Holy damage and triggers a short Avenging Wrath, and that sounds amazing to be honest.

23 Likes

Along similar lines, Shield of the Righteous being unpruned is going to drive me CRAZY because I will not want it on my action bars, but currently the UI is designed so that if there’s a spell in your spellbook that isn’t on your action bars it’s highlighted with a shimmering gold aura to remind you to put it there, and no UI, Shield of the Righteousness doesn’t belong on my bar I have a two-handed sword.

8 Likes