FEEDBACK: Paladin Class Changes

Short little suggestion: I think Holy Power coming back to Holy Paladin is really cool addition back into the game but there are many times in a dungeon where i am sitting at full holy power and i know i can spend it on shield of righteous but i was wondering if having eternal flame added back into the game for holy paladins could be an option?

2 Likes

I for one welcome the deletion of this ability.

24 Likes

I second this

4 Likes

Having played on the newest Alpha build (35078) I wanted to clarify a few things.

Vanquisher’s Hammer now does cost 1HP as was previously datamined.

I want to talk more about Ashen Verdict now that it usable everywhere at level 60 and not just Revendreth. Using Ashen Hollow in the open world is not very fun. The circle is absolutely massive and it’s almost guaranteed you will pull multiple mobs or other mobs will path into its radius. In a dungeon with tight spaces and trying to avoid additional packs or patrolling mobs will make this incredibly annoying to use.

Considering that a majority of the player-base does not raid I imagine they will have a frustrating time managing this ability.

I honestly think this is an ability that would deserve a rework. It definitely deserves to be blood themed as is but more manageable in practical scenarios. Have it be a moderate CD (45s - 1.5M), do some direct damage, and apply a DoT. The DoT could even spread to nearby targets. Have it be a leech effect of some sort that maybe heals you and if you have full HP it gets directed to an injured nearby ally. The DoT should have an interaction with our skills as well. Make it interact with Holy Power spenders to keep a solid benefit in ST and Cleave/AoE. This would allow us to keep all of the main components of the original ability aside from being an obnoxious ground effect with an extremely long CD.

23 Likes

Overall, I’m really enjoying paladin on the Alpha. I really like that we got consecrate, wake of ashes, and hammer of wrath baseline. This is really awesome. Thank you!

One wish I had is to see the return of “Final Verdict” talent, that modified Templar’s Verdict. It was a talent in Warlords of Draenor. I loved the playstyle that it gave (10 yard range was especially nice), and loved how it buffed the next button press of divine storm.

This was my favorite ability that’s ever been added to the game for any class, and I’ve been playing since Vanilla.

Please consider bringing this back in some form, whether it’s a talent, glyph, legendary effect, or something. I think a lot of paladins would really enjoy it.

Thank you for your consideration <3

19 Likes

In an upcoming build, Blessing of the Seasons is reworked to be a single-target buff, instead of being party-based. This is both more in keeping with modern abilities called “Blessings”, and also avoids a lot of balance-related problems that people were seeing on alpha. For example, the damaging Blessings will now be more effective when used solo, not only in group play. All four of the effects have their values increased to go along with this change (caveat that tuning is still quite preliminary). The changes mentioned last week—where multiple Paladins in a group are locked together, and give a hidden increase in strength to the Blessings—are no longer necessary and are reverted.

8 Likes

F(10 characters)

12 Likes

I have some more feedback on various topics.

Why is Liadrins’s Fury Reborn named after the Legion Legendary? It only shares the name not the effect. The effect is the “Faintly Glowing Ember” Anima Power from Torghast. Either way this legendary is completely busted for multiple reasons. You get 5HP for Pressing Wings. You Spender > Builder > Spender. Divine Shield yourself and then Spender > Builder > Spender. Lay on Hands a party member and then Spender > Builder > Spender. Finally cast Blessing of Protection on a party member and then Spender > Builder > Spender. One of the common complains that Ret has had was in regards into degenerate gameplay such as Shield of Vengeance and the Retribution buff which is now an Aura. I do not see why we keep getting pushed into sacrificing defensive and utility tools for the purposes of damage.

Tempest of the Lightbringer does not damage all enemies in its path. It is still limited to 5 enemies. With such a small cap now, the projection is nearly pointless. It will be rare to have 5 mobs in 1 pull that are so spread out you need your Divine Storm to travel to hit them all.

Final Verdict is nice to see. One thing I noticed is that the tooltip on the Legendary item itself is about 7% more tooltip damage than the Final Verdict skill on the bar. Once used the damage done matches what is listed on the Legendary. The hammer animation comes from the opposite side and in some cases depending on boss model you will not be able to see it. I noticed it has multiple different sound effects that is cycles through. I am not sure if it is intentional or not but some of them sound much better than others.

Vanquisher’s Hammer combined with the Tempest of the Lightbringer legendary is a DPS loss at 5 targets. You will do more damage just casting Divine Storm instead of spending 1 Holy Power for Vanquisher’s Hammer and 3 HP on Templar’s Verdict to get a “free” Divine Storm. At 5 targets without Tempest Vanquisher’s Hammer is just barely better than spam casting Divine Storm. I do not believe a Covenant Ability which is a signature feature of the expansion should be a DPS loss or just barely worth it in any scenario. Especially a common scenario that will be encountered in dungeons and some raid encounters. Now that Vanquisher’s Hammer costs HP it now consumes the Judgment debuff. This is also a DPS loss but can be avoided by making sure to consume it with a normal HP spender before you cast Vanquisher’s Hammer.

Blessing of Seasons is even worse now. Rather than people arguing who gets to be in the Paladin group its going to be about who benefits the most from an individual Blessing.

Blessing of Autumn will be reserved for whatever gets the most benefit from cooldown reduction during their major CD.

Blessing of Spring will be reserved for whatever healer it is best for. It may be the best choice on a Holy Paladin. But this does nothing for Ret and not much for Prot.

Blessing of Summer will be cast on whatever player can cause the most damage events in that time frame.

Blessing of Winter will end up the same as Blessing of Summer.

Grove Invigoration from Niya’s Soulbind is also poorly worded. You only get the buff on your first Blessing cast and do not receive it again until it falls off completely.

People will math/sim out which class benefits the most from Blessings. People who want to be competitive will always cast the Blessing on who it benefits the most if it turns out not to be the Paladin. This will trickle down into lower levels of gameplay as that is how the meta works. The meta is not limited to the high end. People will copy what high end players do.

Theoretically you could make the damage from Summer and Winter count for the Paladin who cast it and not the player it was cast on. But you already tried that Blizzard. It was called Greater Blessing of Might. It was such an issue you removed it in patch 7.1.5 and buffed Ret by 12% to compensate. Now this also affects Holy and Prot. And there are 2 more Blessings that you cannot assign a clear numeric value to. I am willing to bet as a Ret Paladin it will not be worth using any of these Blessing on ourselves in group play.

There are some great design choices such as Final Verdict and Badge of the Mad Paragon. Then we have choices like Blessings that copy previous failed designs that were abandoned, and Liadrin’s that copies what most would consider degenerate gameplay. Korayn’s Soulbind from Night Fae as well. The final trait is “Final Moments” which increased your healing and damage to targets below 35% health by 3 %. Then once every 5 Minutes if an ally dies the benefit is increased by 500%. We need to stop rewarding death.

I’m sure I’m forgetting something and will think of other things later. I’ll end this post here for now though.

52 Likes

From a Prot perspective:

In the current Beta build 9.0.1.35167, the changes to the HoTR cooldown being reduced is not applying to Blessed Hammers. Currently on Live, as well as all previous Beta builds, both HoTR and Blessed Hammers have the same recharge time. That is no longer the case, as HoTR has about a 1 second shorter recharge time than Blessed Hammers. Bug?

Also, still no word on changing Retribution Aura. Wings proc on ally death is just bad and will ultimately lead to degenerate gameplay. See about every post above mine mentioning this.

Divine Toll is fun ability to use when there are multiple enemies for it to hit, despite it currently doing less overall damage than Ashen Hollow. This is futher exacerbated during single target situations and I fear ever choosing the Kyrian covenant as it’s simply just an Avenger’s Shield on a 1 minute CD. Maybe have a varying cooldown reduction by up to 45 seconds, when Divine Toll hits less than 5 targets? That way you could at least have greater access to HP generation on ST fights.

6 Likes

That was intended so that Blessed Hammers aren’t a significant gain in holy power generation and that talent row should be picked for damage reduction choice rather than holy power generation.

2 Likes

Retribution Aura Feedback:

The class fantasy of the BfA Retribution passive and SL Retribution Aura is great and I see why it is an obvious design choice. However, there are fundamental design issues here. Namely, providing a beneficial effect upon player death.

The most recent update from Sigma talked about Blessing of the Seasons being moved to a single target buff to align with modern blessing abilities. I agree with that analysis and would argue that Ret aura should be looked at through the same lens. The effect of this aura only provides a direct beneficial buff to the Paladin who has the aura active. All party and raid members essential get an aura that says “if I die, the paladin gets stronger.” Whereas other paladin auras provide a beneficial effect to all party and raid members so long as the Paladin is alive. The aura feels like a selfish option and should be scrapped entirely or - if it must - just remain a passive and apply wings instead of the flat dmg increase.

There are ways to alter this aura to make it feel more like a traditional Paladin aura but these only exacerbate the fundamental issues in it’s design. Examples:

  • All Paladins in the party / raid are granted wings upon player death
  • All party / raid members gain a small dmg or secondary stat benefit for x seconds
  • All party / raid members are granted an absorb shield upon a players death. Could be based off a % of the slain comrades max HP.

While these options would feel less selfish and more like an “aura”, they are incredibly difficult to balance. I can easily see that version of a Ret Aura being required and guilds intentionally letting people die 1-by-1 late in a progression kill. We should never want our ally to fall in combat.

I don’t see a great way to keep the “on player death” effect and make it feel like a meaningful aura choice without it being overpowered. Without some group benefit, it will feel like a selfish passive and not an aura.

4 Likes

So before the Night Fae auras affected 5 targets. Now they affect one, and some weren’t buffed to do 5x the effect. They also were reduced in duration to half as long and it now takes twice as long to cycle through it. So essentially you didn’t redesign it, you just nerfed the crap out of it and it’s still not fun.

37 Likes

I wanted to give my feedback on Holy. Some have already been discussed toward the top on this forum.

Holy to me feels slow and weak outside of wings or an execute stage w/ HoW available. Judgement should Generate 1 Holy Power like it does w/ Ret. The building phase is too slow. It will also give people that are not fans of melee the ability to generate HP when they can’t be in melee. At its current stage not many people will pick Bestow Faith or Light’s Hammer over Crusader’s Might as its a HP Generator.

Light of Dawn needs its range extended for the loss of our talent and perhaps buffed to make it “feel” like a “rewarding” spender. With the change to Divine Purpose casting it now feels much worse and it shouldn’t. Spenders should feel awesome!

Divine Purpose (Holy Spec) It needs to be buffed back to 20% or more as we are not casting spenders as often. Also, Loosing the damage/healing synergy w/ Holy Shock also feels bad. Right now, my only Holy Power dmg ability is SotR? To take advantage of the 20% dmg buff. DP, Less casts, less procs, less dmg/healing.

Glimmer of Light. I’m happy to see it here. But with the changes to Divine Purpose it’s not going to work as well without that synergy. I know I’ve used that word a lot, but it feels like Holy needs more of it, synergy between talents. Putting Glimmer on the same row as Beacons does not help. Maybe Glimmer should be on row 25 w/ the healing buffs and rework / buff “Saved by the Light” for row 50, since its Beacon talent.

18 Likes

Ret paladins possess an array of damage/healing/utility that allows for many skillful and rewarding ways to save the day. In Shadowlands, however, my 5 builders and (based on talents) up to 5 spenders plus all of my utility and healing spells make blending these together into fun and effective gameplay feel impossible. The main problem I see here is the GCD and how it makes me feel like I am playing Madness: Desynchronized slow while nearly every other class is playing normal or fast.
I would start by taking Holy Avenger, Seraphim and Inquisition off the GCD. Additionally, if Word of Glory is meant to heal for less than Flash of Light and requires me to sacrifice my damage resource to cast, it too should be off the GCD.
This also comes into play when using Divine Steed (not that divine if it’s still affected by slows). I have to use 2 GCDs to move unencumbered and it just feels awful every time. I would make Divine Steed immune to movement impairing effects baseline with the same 3sec duration and 45sec CD. Then make the level 35 row give it A. a heavy slow that fades over 3sec, B. 2 charges or C. 2sec longer duration with a 50% chance for attacks made against you while active to miss (not applying to boss mechanics). These are just examples, but Divine Steed needs some love one way or another.
The overall Ret design is mostly good and the damage potential appears to be excellent, but the sheer number of moving parts that must be juggled, one GCD at a time, is leaving Ret feeling very dissatisfying in its current iteration.

10 Likes

After a fair bit of testing with Badge of the Mad Paragon on a Night Fae Paladin, I will say 3 seconds seems a bit too much. Utilizing the CD reduction blessing from Night Fae, I was consistently able to keep Crusade active for 1m 1s with, and ~50s without. This basically double dips with the cooldown reduction blessing as well, because not only does it allow Hammer of Wrath to be cast more often if it is active during Crusade, extending the duration further, but it also reduces the cooldown of crusade itself significantly.

While this combo is fairly fun, I can see it being a balance nightmare, as this will get even more out of hand as haste increases with gear. I tested against other legendaries and it significantly out-performs other ST options and is slightly ahead of Tempest of the Lightbringer in AoE, while giving a higher ST benefit as well. Likely the duration added for each Hammer of Wrath will need to be reduced to 1 or 2 seconds in order to keep it more in line with other legendaries.

Blessing of Seasons itself is fun to use, and the versatility it provides makes for interesting choices during gameplay, however I feel 50% CDR is a bit much, as it feels like it has a massive impact on gameplay compared the other seasons.

3 Likes

Seasons needs a new rework. As it stands right now, basing off of spell power, we’re not going to put Summer on any other melee, other than an enhancement shaman. Winter, is just dead, it’s useless and causes the shifting of seasons to take longer. It’s not even worthwhile to put on a melee who can attack faster(IE DH, Enhance Shaman, Fury Warrior). It’s damage is subpar and it’s proc rate doesn’t make up for that. Seasons also needs to benefit the paladin casting it in someway. Either 100% of the efficiency of the buff or 50%. Something to make us want to cast it on another person. Because, right now, I’ll just be greedy and cast Summer and Autumn on myself, don’t care about winter, and spring can just be thrown to anyone. As for consecrate, I’m not pressing it on the beta. It’s not class fantasy to me, it doesn’t fit in the ret gameplay style. Maybe for Holy and Prot, but giving it to Ret, I don’t know who thought it would be a great idea to make it baseline for us. It’s not even worthwhile to press. It doesn’t generate HP, it’s damage is subpar, and it’s animation is still horrendous.

As far as legendary’s go, they are all sub par except for a few. Mad paragon seems to be the most efficient in ST and even AoE. Divine Tempest damage, as of right now, is not increased(extensive testing on beta shows that EP also does not increase the damage of a DS, so these do not stack at the moment). Final Verdict legendary, seems like a great idea, but why don’t we just have it as a talent?

You’ve taken away so much from Ret, and now just shoveling things back into it that don’t make sense. Making wings a two minute cd(you get a passive that takes away a minute, which is baseline three minutes), it blows me out of the water. This ability should be brought down to 1.5 minutes(with the passive making it instead of a 1 minute decrease, to 1.5 minutes). Also, hammer should be able to be able to be used during wings AT ALL TIMES! You made it a level 58 passive, when it’s just been a passive to us all along. Leveling without that is going to be slower.

A few things I’d like to be changed. Seasons, most definitely, needs a buff/rework as of right now. It’s not enticing enough to play at the moment. It should be off the GCD and benefit the paladin using it in some shape or form. Our passives need to be looked at as well as our talents. We have so many dead talents(the cavalier two charge should be baseline). Our legendary’s need to be look at as well, seeing only mainly three that would be optimal/fun to play with(Mad paragon, HoW extender, Divine tempest), while the rest seem to just be thrown into the mix without much thought.

And in closing, I love Ret, I’ve been playing it since vanilla, really. I know the pains of the specialization and I know there have been dark times in it’s lifespan. But, as of right now, we have a chance to make it feel even more alive than say…Wrath or MoP! Not everyone is going to agree with what I have said, but it’s what I’ve seen and it’s my opinion. We need some love, and this is the perfect time to do it. Thank you so much for reading and considering. I appreciate it.

19 Likes

I have done a lot of just general testing on dummies, testing interactions, normal dungeons, and a few Mythic +10s.

First thing is that Empyrean Power no longer feels good. It was not the damage nerf that made it feel worse. It was the proc rate nerf. One of my first posts I stated if it had to be nerfed it should be the damage bonus rather than the proc rate. A 15% proc rate on Empyrean Power is not comparable to the 15% proc rate on Divine Purpose. In an average encounter you will have about 50% more casts of Holy Power spenders versus Crusader Strike casts. This leads to Divine Purpose pricing about 50% more often than Empyrean Power. I would like to see the proc rate increased, and damage lowered if necessary, for balancing. I just want to restate again it is a lot better that Empyrean Power procs from Crusader Strike rather than any attack as it is on live. This leads to no accidental wasted procs unless you double tap Crusader Strike while not paying attention.

Seraphim is my next concern. I enjoyed using Seraphim in WoD, so I am not coming out of the gate disliking it. I do feel however it does not translate well into the modern game. In WoD Templar’s Verdict was much weaker. It was not even close our top damage source. In simpler terms Seraphim costing 5HP did not feel bad due to the lower damage per Holy Power spent in WoD. In the modern game HP spenders make up over half of our damage. There are some differences with Seraphim now, it is only 3HP instead of 5, and the cooldown is 45s instead of 15s. I think Seraphim could highly benefit from an additional effect. Like how either your first Templar’s Verdict or Divine Storm will crit inside Avenging Wrath.

This is an issue with the entire right talent column in general. Empyrean Power is an exception. All the damaging abilities require HP to use. They also can all be used at the same time for hilarious effect. I know the dev’s are aware of this though as they have commented on it already. None of the ability’s setup immediate satisfaction. Execution Sentence would be the one that feels best as it deals damage right away. ES provides the debuff which increases your Holy damage against the target. Then depending on your rotation you have to follow up with a generator which is either physical damage so it would receive no benefit or it is a Holy damage generator which does not provide the large impact that a Templar’s Verdict would have. The same applies to Seraphim, and Inquisition to a lesser extent. Your immediate follow-up to using Seraphim is a building phase to take advantage of the short substantial increase in secondary stats you just received. Inquisition is a maintenance buff so it is not expected that it should have some immediate gratification.

The other issue with these talents is the row they fall in. Sanctified Wrath and Crusade provide a more tangible feel to your rotation. Inquisition is just a button you press every 40 seconds to maintain a buff. Divine Purpose and Holy Avenger have a profound impact on the overall rotational feeling. Seraphim is just a short buff for more damage. The entire first row just has no meaningful impact in general, so it is just a choice of what does more damage for a given situation.

On the topic of legendaries From Dusk to Dawn is just boring. It just a flat damage buff and damage taken reduction. The benefit of altering our rotation to maintain a high uptime of the buff will have a negative impact overall. You will be better off just playing as you do normally and getting whatever additional benefit you get. Torghast has other powers to choose from that provide a better feeling such as Blood Beacon, Mark of Conk-quest or Shard of Milkglass.

Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk. More to come Soon™.

57 Likes

I’ve spent a decent chunk of time doing +10 keys in Shadowlands and I have two concerns.

  1. General triage - sometimes a 3 Holy Power Word of Glory (the only way you can cast it) is too strong. It’d be nice to be able to hit people with a 1 HP WoG even though that’s overall less hps per gcd - when contrasted with hitting Martyr instead, we at least get a beacon transfer and don’t have the downside of taking damage. It’s small, but it gives a mana efficient way to throw out a different sized heal and mimics downranking a bit with no actual downside to anyone that only wants to cast 3holy power WoG’s.

  2. Not having an aoe heal that isn’t dependent on holy power or a talent is kind of odd. Even if we had old holy radiance on a 30s cooldown instead of the 1m (instant with 1hp gen) and the reduction in heal past 6 people - that feels like it’d be a nice addition to the kit. This may be a non-issue depending how raid healing goes - but right now it feels like Holy Paladins may be missing a key part of their kit if they choose a covenant that isn’t Kyrian.

16 Likes

Holy Paladin seems a bit too slow at the moment. I do not just mean this in comparison to it’s 8.3 iteration. At the core I believe the issue is how the spec generates HP.

Judgement should grant 1 HP for Holy. As it stands now, Crusader’s Might feels mandatory and players will be punished if they need to run mechanics out or are unable to hit a target in melee. Having both HS and Judgement generate a HP from range would help smooth out the generation.

Additionally, HP generation from FoL and HL being tied to healing the beacon target feels really counterintuitive. Personally, I like the current niche that Paladins fill - being excellent triage healers that passively support the tank(s). The way HP is currently gained removes some of that and forces you to prioritize direct healing beacon targets far too often.

Additionally, HP generation from direct beacon heals will feel even worse as we become more powerful or when playing with people who have some different skill sets. It will feel like we are wasting mana healing a full HP target just so we can more effectively heal other members of the group. It also starts to make beacon of virtue feel required in 5 man groups. While I agree virtue should shine there, it shouldn’t be the only playstyle.

Example:
You are doing a 5 man with an experienced tank and some more casual DPS. The tank is aware of fight mechanics and knows when to use his CDs effectively. Some of the DPS are less familiar with mechanics and get hit by cleaves, fire,etc. The Paladin is put in an awkward position where they may need to hard cast a FoL or HL on a full HP tank just to get that extra HP to use their only baseline AoE heal. Again, this is where having an extra DPS HP generator in judgement could really help.

15 Likes

Adding to Holy Feedback.

As others have said, things feel slow and clunky.

  • The value of Light of Dawn just seems like a waste of Holy Power, and in AOE damage situations it feels like there really is no good option besides trying to build as many Word of Glories as possible to pick everyone back up.

  • Then you look at Holy Light and Flash of Light and think Infusion is there to make them feel powerful and fill in the gap. But you’re left with a relatively weak heal compared to Word and Shock. It’s punishing to have to cast them. I think the Crit% being removed from Infusion is partially causing this issue.

  • I also wanted to add support to the suggestion someone made for the case of synergy. Moving Glimmer to compete with Judgement of Light instead of Beacon, and bringing Divine Purpose back into the final row. I think this could go a long way into improve the speed and responsiveness.

Overall Holy just feels like an unfinished attempt to bring the class back into the Fantasy at best and a gut reaction attempt to nerf the dominance of the class in BFA by breaking some synergies at worst. But I’m excited to see more changes soon and how the class will continue to evolve.

7 Likes