FEEDBACK: Paladin Class Changes

Divine shield, Blessing of sanctuary and blessing of freedom should not be on the gcd.

How can you be reactive in pvp when you are locked behind your own gcd.

33 Likes

Shield of Vengeance is currently far too weak in a pvp setting. Several spells on the alpha right now can easily one shot the shield with damage to spare. The backlash damage it deals is a small aoe around the player divided by the number of targets hit, it simply isn’t menacing enough deter enemy players from powering through it and very difficult to punish a caster with it. I would like for shield of vengeance to feel like a good first line of defense or be something an enemy should be wary of, similar to how people react when a monk pops touch of karma, or a druid pops thorns.

With the return of shattering throw to all warrior specs and mass dispel being available to all 3 priest specs, divine shield feels mighty fragile. I think it would be very good if the Eye for an Eye talent was reworked to cover both physical and magical damage. Not only will this make it an incredibly viable pick in pvp, wheras right now it is considered niche, it would also improve its performance in a raid or dungeon setting.

25 Likes

THIS

10 char

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I don’t disagree. I’m honestly of the opinion that Holy Power should be removed from the game entirely, but I don’t know what would be good to replace it. I hated it when it was introduced, and I still hate it now. Which sucks, because I love my paladins.

10 Likes

Hi! My name is Clammyjonez and I play Discipline Priest and Holy Paladin. I raided in Poetry Club/Poptart Corndog in Crucible of Storms and Eternal Palace. I’m really passionate about Holy Paladin and really care about it’s spec and class fantasy going into Shadowlands. This is my first time ever posting feedback so if there are any errors or minor mistakes in what i’ve written i would be happy to hear other’s feedback and also suggestions to Holy Paladins in Shadowlands ! We are all here for the same reason and that’s to see our Class be fun and successful going into the next expansion! Also I would love to thanks Evelinari- Tichondrius a Holy Paladin main and a former co healer of mine when i raided in Poetry Club and and Dhaubbs former raider/healer from BDG (Big Dumb Guild) and also a moderator in the Monk discord (Peak of Serenity). They helped me collect suggestions, ideas and without their help this would probably be a big mess :stuck_out_tongue:

My take on Holy Paladins is that the specialization feels very weak on the Shadowlands Alpha. I am unsure if it’s because of gear/tuning, but having done a few dungeons, where you are scaled up and Holy Paladins continue to feel extremely weak.

Infusion playstyle - Infusion of light is a dead passive, but in Legion it was core to the game play which created a very fun and interactive playstyle. Double crit on Holy Shock, and Flash/Holy Light actually being useful and not resulting in an overall healing loss compared to casting crusader strike, the class had flow to it allowing the player to have consistency to their gameplay while also giving a player decision making to their healing style. After nearing 50% crit, Holy Paladin had a consistent and enjoyable playstyle

Legion Holy Paladin: With legion artifacts and tier sets, you could get stack bonuses to Flash of Light resulting in 8m+ flash of lights that would fully heal your party if you had virtue on them; Flash of Light was actually important and the rest of the class design worked around Infusion and Flash. Nothing was added to Holy Paladin going into BFA, but the core trifecta of ability interactions (Infusion, Holy Shock crits, and Flash of Light healing) was put in the dirt. I think Legion hpal was very good; it had its own fantasy and was different from the other healers while still being good. In Legion, Holy Paladin was not very good at AOE healing (outside of cooldowns), all you had was Judgment of Light and Light of Dawn (no 40 yard Azerite trait), but it made up in huge single target healing and was still fun and competitive, and set itself apart from Holy Priest, Discipline Priest and all the spread AoE healers (Resto Druid). However now Holy Paladin is just the best at saving people’s lives and doing raid aoe healing

BFA (Glimmer of Light Paladin: - In BFA, Holy Paladin became wholly dependent on Glimmer of Light. This single trait was so powerful it needed to be nerfed on multiple occasions, and still managed to remain as the clear, best trait to have in all situations. While this play style flourished, the core design of Holy Paladin withered on the vine, leaving players to do nothing but repeatedly press Holy Shock and Crusader’s Strike ad nauseum. Developers decided to keep Glimmer moving forward into Shadowlands as a talent, instead of redesigning/fixing the spec. This will likely result in gameplay similar to what we have now in BFA, with the addition of Holy Power being largely unnoticed and the spec’s primary healing abilities (Holy Light, Flash of Light, Light of Dawn) being relegated to fillers. Even though Glimmer was fun as a unique playstyle and as the sole savior of Holy Paladin’s viability in BFA (Holy Paladin would still be at the bottom of the totem pole if Glimmer had not come along), most players who have used it for a few raid tiers now find the gameplay revolving around Glimmer to be repetitive and shallow. Glimmer was a very fun and unique playstyle for Paladins almost mimicking a Discipline Priest playstyle which also is a fun and rewarding specialization. Although going into Nyalotha, Glimmer Paladin became monotonous because you had to know you Holy Avenger and Avenging Wrath timings for moments of large AoE damage to the raid and just Crusader Strike + Holy Shock with some fillers if Holy Shock or Crusader Strike were unavailable, allowing the player to have minimal decision making in when to use Holy Light/Flash of Light and Light of Dawn which was when Crusader Strike Holy Shock were on cool down. Glimmer overall was enjoyable for the time being and a different way in playing Holy Paladin was a nice change for Despite its addition as a talent and not a core passive,I believe that Glimmer will still be the go-to playstyle for throughput in all content, and I fear that this will severely hamper potential talent choices. While I think the new talents offer new gameplay I don’t think they will be picked as many players will choose what the best players are doing.

  • Flash of Light : Not sure why this spell does minimal healing but it is even more useless to press now that Infusion of Light increases the speed of Flash of Light instead of increasing its healing. It feels really underwhelming and not worth pressing compared to Holy Shock or Holy Light. Having some experience in Alpha dungeons, Beacon of Virtue is a desirable option in this row, for it allows you to keep the party healthy. The problem with this is that Flash of Light is a quick heal in moments when you need to save someone and with Virtue active, you have to spam flash of heal to even keep them afloat. In BFA, Flash of Light is so mana inefficient and such a poor heal, that regular use (even as a filler) will make you go OOM twice as fast. On longer fights it’s actually better to stand and do nothing than to waste your mana on flash of light.

  • Awakening (talent) : Gameplay centering around random procs is very questionable for healers. Unlike DPS who can almost always make full use of a random stat increase or % damage steroid, healers can often find themselves simply trying to maintain a group’s HP when a proc occurs. It is soul crushing to see what should be a big powerful moment, reduced to impotently twiddling our thumbs, staring at a full set of HP bars while our buff timer steadily ticks down to 0. RNG on a healer only feels good to the player when the ability/passive procs during a high damage moment during a boss encounter. For example, whenever I would get a Vision of Perfection proc on my Holy Paladin during Shad’har it felt incredible, especially when the slime would explode and you had a vision proc to help recover the raid’s HP in that time frame you need those burst heals from your holy shocks. On the other hand when I would receive no vision procs or just one, it felt so bad to have it as a major essence when a Discipline Priest had Ever-Rising Tide an on demand essence they can choose to use any time they want to increase their healing. Choice in a player’s hand will always make an active spell feel better than relying on a spell/passive proc when you need it in a specific moment during a dungeon/raid fight.

I think a neat suggestion to add to the Holy Paladin kit would include Maraad’s Dying Breath. This fun and interactive legendary from Legion could be considered to become a talent that is more interactive/fun than a passive/RNG talent. I think the Legion cloak effect is very good and could work well with Holy Power. I feel as though this could provide an interesting gameplay loop of building/spending resources, while removing a more passive talent. This could give Light of the Martyr as a reason for regular use. Right now it’s actually just wrong to cast Light of the Martyr over anything else, except to save someone’s life. This will preserve that option but also integrate it more into the flow of the spec. I think this effect is really interesting, so I don’t want to see it forgotten because of another talent choice.

  • Avenging Crusader : Personally, this talent is really unfun. Unlike DPS who often stick to a somewhat strict rotation/priority system, the core gameplay of being a healer is to make quick decisions, plan for the future, and select the right spell for the job. This talent is antithetical to that whole philosophy. Now that’s not necessarily a bad thing - having a cooldown that swaps your role, while maintaining throughput is an interesting idea. However the options for Healer DPS spells is so limited, that the rotation becomes a stale chore instead of engaging gameplay. It would be a little like if we gave Retribution Paladin the ability to heal the group, and 250% of their healing would be dealt in damage to the boss, but they could only press Flash of Light over and over.

However, divorcing myself from that opinion, within the context of how it is supposed to work, there is one major flaw that absolutely ruins this talent: the healing isn’t smart. Mistweavers will know this as well, but hitting a big cooldown then watching as a party member’s HP slowly falls to 0 because Avenging Crusader decided it wanted to heal the people at 99% hp over and over is insanely frustrating. Don’t get me wrong, smart-heals need to be used sparingly in WoW, however Avenging Crusader is a huge cooldown that incentives you to stop healing and to deal damage instead; if anything ought to be a smart heal, this seems like it would be it. Finally, and this is truly bizarre, but Avenging Crusader doesn’t benefit from Mastery. This seems like an oversight, but it makes the talent even more unappealing.

  • Saved by the Light (Talent) : Mostly a PvP talent choice but it feels random being on a row for healing. Iit would be really neat to have it exchanged for Eternal Flame or Sacred shield. I don’t think I would ever use this talent compared to Judgement of the Light or Holy Prism - I’d rather keep party/raid members alive than a gimmicky cheat death.

  • Retribution Aura : Makes no sense to have this as a Holy Paladin because why allow party/raid members die one by one in order to keep Avenging Wrath active for as long as people are dying - selfish aura and should be changed/exchanged for another aura that fits Holy Paladin. I can see how this aura could be really neat in particular situations in raid/mythic + where having an ally die would be okay. Maybe on raid farm this could be used to gain HPS parses if your raid team agrees to die 1 by 1.

  • Holy Paladin Mastery (Lightbringer) : The idea of being required by your mastery to interact with the environment by standing somewhere specific is just really odd and gimmicky in itself. For example, this can be a problem in situations where Tank A is tanking the boss while Tank B needs to leave my effective healing range. The incoming damage on Tank B makes them a less efficient target to heal, forcing me to choose between weaker heals or a lower-priority target.
    Ordinarily, a ranged healer could position themselves to correct this issue, however, because I need to be in melee in order for my specialization to work at full capacity (i.e Crusader Striking in order to lower my cool down on Holy Shock) my heals are diminished by either range or loss of cooldown reduction.Ranged players naturally are sub optimal targets, or that Rule of Law (a definitively uniquely paladin spell) philosophically opposes the idea of the mastery.
    One interesting thought is that Mistweaver Monks would benefit from this type of mastery than Holy paladins would. Mistweaver Monks have an abundance of mobility and can cast and move at the same time, roll in and out of melee and into range as well as have a teleport in case they need to be in a particular spot for a person running out of melee. Paladin’s only source of mobility is our Divine Steed and that is a 45 second cooldown. This spell can also gain 2 charges if talented into Cavalier but you sacrifice Rule of Law, a talent that increases the range of your heals and the reach of the Holy Paladins mastery by 50%.
    Our role as a melee healer should be encouraged by our abilities, yes we are melee healers and meant to protect the tanks and melee classes but there are times like in Hivemind where a tank will be further away from the Paladin or on Xanesh when players have to dance during Torment and half the raid could be in range of your healers but not in melee range near you.
    Right now, paladins are a melee healer because of crusader strike and Glimmer, not because of mastery. Even before Glimmer, when you could stand in ranged reliably, the proximity mastery wasn’t even interactive; the extent to which people used it was just “don’t be completely out of the raid in the middle of nowhere”. This mastery was not interesting in either iteration of Holy Paladin. Right now I view it as a flat % increase to my healing (like Retribution Paladin mastery is a flat % increase to their damage), the only difference is that it’s just not as good as it seems, because you won’t ever get 100% mastery effectiveness.
    Adding to this, its effectiveness gets even worse depending on the design of whatever fight you are doing.Not only is mastery just overall uninteresting, it’s effectiveness is diminished depending on context. There’s nothing you can do on Il’gynoth, for example, to make your mastery as effective as it is on Shadhar; this is just dictated by the outside influence of fight design.

It would really be cool, and I believe it is long overdue, to have something revamped or something changed with the current Holy Paladin mastery, maybe even bringing back Illuminated Healing (their mastery from WoD), though I’m sure there are many fresh and creative takes on possible Holy Paladin masteries.

If Holy Paladin can fill a similar niche as in Legion, with great single target heals but limited AoE options, that would add more spec identity and re-introduce some diversity to the healing specs in general. As it stands, every healer kinda does the same thing - everyone just tries to do as much AoE healing as possible. This leads to a rather unhealthy meta where raids can just take doubles of the best 2 classes, since no healers fill their own unique niche.

Covenants:

Kyrian (Divine Toll): The best choice to take (unless you are forced into going Night Fae for Blessing of Seasons for your raid) because Glimmer is staying and this ability provides a convenient way for the Holy Paladin to apply 5 Glimmers to 5 targets since this spell will allow Holy Shock to have an AoE heal in a 1 minute cool down . Even without using Glimmer this ability will be the best when combining with Beacon of Virtue because it will give a burst of healing to everyone in M+ on top of the healing from Virtue.

Venthyr (Ashen Hollow): Ashen Hollow creates a really cool bloody consecration AoE pool in a targeted area for 30 seconds.Enemies that are inside this pool will suffer shadow damage every 2 seconds also allies inside the pool will all be healed over time and you are able to use Hammer of Wrath on any target. This covenant ability is just the Light’s Hammer talent (throwing a hammer on the ground that deals AoE holy damage as well as AoE healing to allies;with the addition that you can cast Hammer of Wrath with this covenant spell. I’m not sure how it’s scaled, but if it’s comparable to Light’s Hammer in damage and healing, it is NOT worth a 4 min cooldown. The Hammer of Wrath addition might be good for other specs, but currently the holy power oriented gameplay of hpal is looking to be incomplete and overshadowed by Glimmer. Even then, there’s little reason to cast Hammer of Wrath for Holy Power when you can cast Crusader Strike for Holy Power.

Necrolord (Vanquisher’s Hammer): The covenant ability is interesting and it allows the Holy Paladin to throw a deathy-looking hammer to an enemy and gain a buff that allows the Holy Paladin’s next Word of Glory to have an increase in healing as well as cast Light of Dawn the next time you use Word of Glory. The ability is decent, only because I think it would fit very well with Beacon of Virtue in dungeons, allowing you to do more healing in the Virtue window; and it is somewhat useful in raid (though just as a minor throughput increase, without Virtue there’s not much interaction with this spell, just use it whenever you can).
However, if Glimmer continues to be the one and only choice on that row for all content, the interactions with Virtue that I think could make this interesting are completely gone. It seems like a theme that Glimmer has the potential to suppress whatever class design changes that happen in shadowlands with Holy Power and Covenant abilities, etc.

Night Fae( Aura of Seasons):
Blessing of Seasons will work something like this: press the button until you get Blessing of Summer (holy damage proc) and let it run for its whole duration, then cycle through the other insignificant blessings (winter and spring don’t increase your group members’ dps, after all) as fast as possible to get Blessing of Autumn (15% cooldown rate) and let that sit for a minute. Then, you rush to summer as fast as possible and repeat. This process can only be described as irritating for the player, and the benefits of maintaining these blessings aren’t even felt by the player that chooses this covenant.
Aura of Seasons is terrible terrible terrible in a good way though!, because it is unique in that it brings the class fantasy of Paladin blessings (to an extent) and being a support healer but it isn’t fun to just press a spell and it provides a buff to 5 players and the only desirable buffs you really want are the CDR and the healing increase (in my opinion). Having this next to other abilities that actually increase your own character’s abilities is completely insane and the worst part is that if the effects are raid wide, or even just party-wide and tuned well, that this will be the REQUIRED covenant for anyone in competitive content. Where the other covenants allow you to grow your character’s power, as is the goal in an RPG, and provide different levels of benefit in different forms of content, this ability only affects people in your party/group in a raid which means groups 1-4 should all have a Holy Paladin in each group to benefit from this ability. While the other abilities provide some interaction, as in empowering your other abilities, the game play implications of Blessing of Seasons are uninteresting and even actively annoying.

I hope my feedback can assist the developers and I also hope the contribution of my friends and I can really help Holy Paladins going into Shadowlands. A lot of us that play/main Holy Paladin just want to see what is best for the spec and see it continue to be super fun and successful in Shadowlands ! :slight_smile: Thank you for reading :smiley:

32 Likes

Some changes in an upcoming build:

Protection: Holy Power generation rearranged somewhat. Hammer of the Righteous is on a shorter recharge again, and Avenger’s Shield has a new effect whereby it generates an additional HP the first time it hits a given target (i.e. on the pull), but Judgment no longer generates.

The Protection rotation had gotten a little bit emptier with the longer recharge on Hammer, and this puts it back closer to BFA. Also, one particular time when Prot really wants Holy Power is the moment of engagement with a large group (but in a way that doesn’t flood the rotation in longer combats). Avenger’s shield will now conveniently start you with some HP when pulling packs of multiple enemies. Finally, with all this added Holy Power, we had to pull some back out of the rotation, and chose to do that on Judgment, since it currently serves a separate important purpose with the Shining Light mechanic.

A few ancillary changes to this are increasing the duration of Redoubt, and making Sanctified Wrath generate 2 HP (so Judgment still gives 2 in total while it is active).

Blessing of the Seasons: Keeping this short for now, since we are considering further updates to this in subsequent weeks that make this change obsolete. But in this week’s build, the Seasons will be in sync for all Paladins within a party, and their effects are stronger if there are multiple Paladins in the party.

1 Like

Thx for the reply, but anything for ret at this point?! I mean we gave so much feedback and still nothing.

I don’t ask for a clear answer…I just want to know if you are considering making changes on our mobility/Defensive cds stuff like that.

I dare you to roll a ret paladin in arena and see for yourself how fun it is. By no mean I’m trying to be rude…but cmon guys it’s so frustrating playing this spec right now.

Without big changes ret will be the same in SL.

I don’t want to reroll and I’ve been playing this toon since BC but I don’t want another 2 years of BFA ret

42 Likes

There is nothing I hate more than having holy power on protection. I hate holy power in general and prot was the one spec I could still play without it being turned into some dumb combo point system. It is the main reason I never play my paladin now and will continue not to.

19 Likes

Hehe where really needed changes

Up buff time for SotR
Change GCD for WoG and other main talent and spells

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In the recent Shadowlands Developer update Ion mentioned that tuning does come later but they wanted to hear more about abilities that are outliers. I want to take this time to specifically talk about the impact of the Kyrian, Nerolord, and Venthyr Covenant abilities on DPS. I am excluding Night Fae as they stated they’re in the process of reworking it. I am also excluding the utility ability that each Covenant provides. I am going to assume a fight length of 5 Minutes for the below examples.

Divine Toll is the weakest Covenant in terms of DPS. In both ST and in AoE. However, there was a new Vanquisher’s Hammer that was datamined and has a 1HP cost. When I checked in the Alpha earlier it still had no HP cost. If we assume the 1HP cost is what we will have in the future Divine Toll could potentially pull ahead in limited circumstances. In a theoretical AoE fight scenario where you have at least 4 targets every time Divine Toll comes off of CD it will be equal to Vanquisher’s Hammer. In a more realistic scenario where sometimes you will have packs of varying size and sometimes you will only have 1 target it will be a worse choice.

In a pure ST scenario Vanquisher’s Hammer is ~2.4 times stronger than Divine Toll. This accounts for the HP gain and the Judgment debuff. With the datamined Vanquisher’s Hammer that has a HP cost it would be ~1.6 times stronger. At 2 targets it would be 2.2 times stronger, and it takes until 4 targets consistently to be in a break even scenario. If we assume a 1HP cost it is about ~1.6 times stronger.

For Ashen Hollow lets first assume we are getting use of the full 30 second duration and we’re using it outside of Avenging Wrath. In a ST situation it is ~3.5 times stronger than Vanquishers Hammer. Which Vanquisher’s Hammer is already ~2.4 times stronger than Divine Toll. This ability absolutely blows any choice out of the water in a ST scenario.Using the same considerations as before you would need at least 4 targets for every single Vanquisher’s Hammer to be slightly better than Ashen Hollow. Once you account for a more realistic scenario of having mixed AoE and ST Ashen Hollow would always win DPS wise.

If we look at Ashen Hollow and completely disregard the ability to use Hammer of Wrath the raw damage alone is ~2.3 times stronger than Vanquisher’s Hammer. It would take at least 3 targets every time Vanquisher’s Hammer was used to beat Ashen Hollow.

For this next set we will assume Ashen Hollow and Avenging Wrath are being used together. This negates most of the secondary effect of Hammer of Wrath being castable while in Ashen Hollow as Avenging Wrath is already providing us that bonus for either 20/25/30 seconds depending on talent choices. With Avenging Wrath expiring and having another 10s on Ashen Hollow we could potentially get 2 Hammer of Wrath casts we otherwise would not have. If we combine that with Ashen Hollow being buffed by Avenging Wrath for its duration Ashen Hollow is still ~3.3 times stronger than Vanquishers Hammer. Your target would only need to remain inside the area for ~6 seconds assuming you could still stand in the area yourself for use of Hammer of Wrath twice to deal an equal amount of damage as Vanquisher’s Hammer. For most encounters no matter how movement heavy this would easily be obtainable.
It is entirely possible some of my numbers could be off but I did double check them. I would post my work but it is an unreadable mess sadly. I’m sure Blizzard would be able to take a deep dive into it on their own though and see that there is a large disparity in Covenant strength with Ashen Hollow being almost universally superior. Anyone else is welcome to take a crack at it as well and let us know what they find out.

I wanted to add a few other notes to our Covenant choices as well since I took some time to read what other classes are receiving. We are the only spec which has a covenant with a CD of 4 Minutes. There are a few 3M ones, a handful of 2M cds, but it seems that most abilities have a CD of under 2M. At the same time for other classes that are pure melee or have a melee spec not many of them have abilities with a cast time. A cast time ability on melee feels very obstructive. A 30s duration ground effect is also rare. DH’s have Fodder to the Flame which also has a 30s ground effect. Long duration ground effects tend to feel great when you can get full benefit but feel horrible if you get less duration due to movement. This can be especially prevalent in a M+ environment but can also be frequently experienced with Raid mechanics.

Most other Classes seem to have more thought put into their Covenant ability creation as well. It seems other classes generally have more unique effects as where 2 of our covenants are bland in comparison. We have Divine Toll which is just Judgment with the benefit of being spread to up to 5 nearby targets. We also have Vanquisher’s Hammer which uses the Judgment animation and causes our next Templar’s Verdict to cast Divine Storm. The way I see these 2 skills are best described as “Baseline Ability on a 1M CD that can also do AoE” or “Baseline Ability Animation causes your next Baseline Ability to also cast a Baseline Ability.” This might seem a bit harsh but it is how I feel.

It was mentioned that Blessing of Seasons was being reworked as well. I think it is important to make sure that it does not end up designed similar to Divine Toll or Vanquisher’s Hammer where it is equivalent to using a baseline ability. It should interact with our abilities and/or resources in a unique way or even replace a baseline ability in a meaningful way such as Warrior’s Execute being replaced by Condemn.

54 Likes

Short little suggestion: I think Holy Power coming back to Holy Paladin is really cool addition back into the game but there are many times in a dungeon where i am sitting at full holy power and i know i can spend it on shield of righteous but i was wondering if having eternal flame added back into the game for holy paladins could be an option?

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I for one welcome the deletion of this ability.

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I second this

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Having played on the newest Alpha build (35078) I wanted to clarify a few things.

Vanquisher’s Hammer now does cost 1HP as was previously datamined.

I want to talk more about Ashen Verdict now that it usable everywhere at level 60 and not just Revendreth. Using Ashen Hollow in the open world is not very fun. The circle is absolutely massive and it’s almost guaranteed you will pull multiple mobs or other mobs will path into its radius. In a dungeon with tight spaces and trying to avoid additional packs or patrolling mobs will make this incredibly annoying to use.

Considering that a majority of the player-base does not raid I imagine they will have a frustrating time managing this ability.

I honestly think this is an ability that would deserve a rework. It definitely deserves to be blood themed as is but more manageable in practical scenarios. Have it be a moderate CD (45s - 1.5M), do some direct damage, and apply a DoT. The DoT could even spread to nearby targets. Have it be a leech effect of some sort that maybe heals you and if you have full HP it gets directed to an injured nearby ally. The DoT should have an interaction with our skills as well. Make it interact with Holy Power spenders to keep a solid benefit in ST and Cleave/AoE. This would allow us to keep all of the main components of the original ability aside from being an obnoxious ground effect with an extremely long CD.

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Overall, I’m really enjoying paladin on the Alpha. I really like that we got consecrate, wake of ashes, and hammer of wrath baseline. This is really awesome. Thank you!

One wish I had is to see the return of “Final Verdict” talent, that modified Templar’s Verdict. It was a talent in Warlords of Draenor. I loved the playstyle that it gave (10 yard range was especially nice), and loved how it buffed the next button press of divine storm.

This was my favorite ability that’s ever been added to the game for any class, and I’ve been playing since Vanilla.

Please consider bringing this back in some form, whether it’s a talent, glyph, legendary effect, or something. I think a lot of paladins would really enjoy it.

Thank you for your consideration <3

19 Likes

In an upcoming build, Blessing of the Seasons is reworked to be a single-target buff, instead of being party-based. This is both more in keeping with modern abilities called “Blessings”, and also avoids a lot of balance-related problems that people were seeing on alpha. For example, the damaging Blessings will now be more effective when used solo, not only in group play. All four of the effects have their values increased to go along with this change (caveat that tuning is still quite preliminary). The changes mentioned last week—where multiple Paladins in a group are locked together, and give a hidden increase in strength to the Blessings—are no longer necessary and are reverted.

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F(10 characters)

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I have some more feedback on various topics.

Why is Liadrins’s Fury Reborn named after the Legion Legendary? It only shares the name not the effect. The effect is the “Faintly Glowing Ember” Anima Power from Torghast. Either way this legendary is completely busted for multiple reasons. You get 5HP for Pressing Wings. You Spender > Builder > Spender. Divine Shield yourself and then Spender > Builder > Spender. Lay on Hands a party member and then Spender > Builder > Spender. Finally cast Blessing of Protection on a party member and then Spender > Builder > Spender. One of the common complains that Ret has had was in regards into degenerate gameplay such as Shield of Vengeance and the Retribution buff which is now an Aura. I do not see why we keep getting pushed into sacrificing defensive and utility tools for the purposes of damage.

Tempest of the Lightbringer does not damage all enemies in its path. It is still limited to 5 enemies. With such a small cap now, the projection is nearly pointless. It will be rare to have 5 mobs in 1 pull that are so spread out you need your Divine Storm to travel to hit them all.

Final Verdict is nice to see. One thing I noticed is that the tooltip on the Legendary item itself is about 7% more tooltip damage than the Final Verdict skill on the bar. Once used the damage done matches what is listed on the Legendary. The hammer animation comes from the opposite side and in some cases depending on boss model you will not be able to see it. I noticed it has multiple different sound effects that is cycles through. I am not sure if it is intentional or not but some of them sound much better than others.

Vanquisher’s Hammer combined with the Tempest of the Lightbringer legendary is a DPS loss at 5 targets. You will do more damage just casting Divine Storm instead of spending 1 Holy Power for Vanquisher’s Hammer and 3 HP on Templar’s Verdict to get a “free” Divine Storm. At 5 targets without Tempest Vanquisher’s Hammer is just barely better than spam casting Divine Storm. I do not believe a Covenant Ability which is a signature feature of the expansion should be a DPS loss or just barely worth it in any scenario. Especially a common scenario that will be encountered in dungeons and some raid encounters. Now that Vanquisher’s Hammer costs HP it now consumes the Judgment debuff. This is also a DPS loss but can be avoided by making sure to consume it with a normal HP spender before you cast Vanquisher’s Hammer.

Blessing of Seasons is even worse now. Rather than people arguing who gets to be in the Paladin group its going to be about who benefits the most from an individual Blessing.

Blessing of Autumn will be reserved for whatever gets the most benefit from cooldown reduction during their major CD.

Blessing of Spring will be reserved for whatever healer it is best for. It may be the best choice on a Holy Paladin. But this does nothing for Ret and not much for Prot.

Blessing of Summer will be cast on whatever player can cause the most damage events in that time frame.

Blessing of Winter will end up the same as Blessing of Summer.

Grove Invigoration from Niya’s Soulbind is also poorly worded. You only get the buff on your first Blessing cast and do not receive it again until it falls off completely.

People will math/sim out which class benefits the most from Blessings. People who want to be competitive will always cast the Blessing on who it benefits the most if it turns out not to be the Paladin. This will trickle down into lower levels of gameplay as that is how the meta works. The meta is not limited to the high end. People will copy what high end players do.

Theoretically you could make the damage from Summer and Winter count for the Paladin who cast it and not the player it was cast on. But you already tried that Blizzard. It was called Greater Blessing of Might. It was such an issue you removed it in patch 7.1.5 and buffed Ret by 12% to compensate. Now this also affects Holy and Prot. And there are 2 more Blessings that you cannot assign a clear numeric value to. I am willing to bet as a Ret Paladin it will not be worth using any of these Blessing on ourselves in group play.

There are some great design choices such as Final Verdict and Badge of the Mad Paragon. Then we have choices like Blessings that copy previous failed designs that were abandoned, and Liadrin’s that copies what most would consider degenerate gameplay. Korayn’s Soulbind from Night Fae as well. The final trait is “Final Moments” which increased your healing and damage to targets below 35% health by 3 %. Then once every 5 Minutes if an ally dies the benefit is increased by 500%. We need to stop rewarding death.

I’m sure I’m forgetting something and will think of other things later. I’ll end this post here for now though.

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From a Prot perspective:

In the current Beta build 9.0.1.35167, the changes to the HoTR cooldown being reduced is not applying to Blessed Hammers. Currently on Live, as well as all previous Beta builds, both HoTR and Blessed Hammers have the same recharge time. That is no longer the case, as HoTR has about a 1 second shorter recharge time than Blessed Hammers. Bug?

Also, still no word on changing Retribution Aura. Wings proc on ally death is just bad and will ultimately lead to degenerate gameplay. See about every post above mine mentioning this.

Divine Toll is fun ability to use when there are multiple enemies for it to hit, despite it currently doing less overall damage than Ashen Hollow. This is futher exacerbated during single target situations and I fear ever choosing the Kyrian covenant as it’s simply just an Avenger’s Shield on a 1 minute CD. Maybe have a varying cooldown reduction by up to 45 seconds, when Divine Toll hits less than 5 targets? That way you could at least have greater access to HP generation on ST fights.

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That was intended so that Blessed Hammers aren’t a significant gain in holy power generation and that talent row should be picked for damage reduction choice rather than holy power generation.

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