FEEDBACK: Paladin Class Changes

From a PvP stand point holy power generation feels bad. Bestow faith change seems good, but you don’t generate holy power until the heal goes off. If it’s purged you just get nothing. In arena you rarely use crusader strike as you’re extremely susceptible to cc if you go in for it. The infusion of light change actually makes lights grace (a once 100% selection) an absolute waste of a talent, maybe attach it to flash of light. It seems as holy is being built entirely around the absolute worst mastery in the game which make the holy power system feel bad in game. Glimmer in arena (if details isn’t broken) doesn’t provide much extra healing. The awkwardness of holy power generation almost forces us to play double beacon, because even the slightest cleave and we lose holy power generation without it. Ret and Prot both get holy power generation from judgment, only seems reasonable to do the same for holy Paladin.

TLDR: stop forcing this terrible glimmer play style on holy as it’s not at all viable in PvP. Make judgement generate holy power.

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Please please please make Judgement grant 1 Holy Power for Holy too. I would trade that for a slight nerf on Holy Power spenders. Judgement just feels pointless to press right now (unless you spec into Judgement of Light) and it distracts from the flow of the spec in all its playstyles.

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It’s been a few days since I’ve done anything in the beta, last time was when they reworked ES and added Final Reckoning. I didn’t test the Liadrin legendary with it, but I tested Final Verdict and Mad Paragon. Even with the extra few seconds from paragon, I was still doing more damage with Final Verdict. I kinda skipped over Liadrin legendary, is it that much better than the other 2?

Side note: Feelsbad being less than 2 months away and not knowing what direction I’ll be going with the covenants. Was the buff to ashen hollow that much better than seasons? I’m basically down to Night Fae/Venethyr, with night Fae slightly ahead for the mobility factor alone. Anyone else in the same predicament??

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They could add back in that we generate holy power when taking dmg but can’t occur more than every 3-5 secs. As well as Infusion of Light procs granting holy power and judgement.

Then the hail Mary is removing Beacon of Faith for Eternal Flame. Making a holy power focused playstyle over glimmer.

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I’m w/ you Zvn! Taking an in-game QoL passive away and adding it as a Global is not what I call “good” unpruning ". Of all the cool spells Paladin’s have had over the years this is what we get? People are in for a sad surprise on Oct 26 if things go unchecked from the community feedback. We are just waiting for that little extra polish to make us shine!

@Hemholtz, I know what you mean. Reading other class forums and seeing the back and forth w/ Blue’s makes my Pally sad. I’m still hopeful they are listening to us. :wink:

Catching up on a few things on Protection:
–Reverted the Holy Power changes from the July 8 update. All things considered, the attempt to rearrange where Protection Holy Power comes from wasn’t enough of a win, given the general sense that Judgment feels a lot better when it generates. Total Holy Power generation should also be higher again in this build as a result.
–Moved some mitigation from Shield of the Righteous to Consecration. This improves mitigation outside of Shield of the Righteous and makes damage less swingy.
–Replaced Shining Light with Bastion of Glory (similar mechanic that existed in Warlords–Shield of the Righteous gives a stacking self-healing increase to Word of Glory). The role of the passive is the same–give Word of Glory a rotational cadence that gives it a clearly “better” time to use.

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This is great, thank you! Excited to see Blizzard listening to Prot Paladin feedback and reverting the July 8 changes. Really appreciated!

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Of course I’m going to miss the “banking” a free heal without Shining Light. This change feels great! It’s nice to be able to use Seraphim on a single target fight. Thank you!

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I am not too thrilled with this change. Its already annoying that I am locked into consecration which is still relying on a hotfix when the GCD was added to make it viable. Mitigation should not be tied to standing in Consecration and should just be a standard tank passive. And having the mitigation in SotR allows it to scale better with more better gear. Now it might as well be a passive that punishes you for leaving consecration.

I feel this idea of being in consecration to do “things” was a failed attempt to add complexity to a spec that doesn’t really need it. Why are we adding this type of qualification and not just add it to passive mitigation like they would do with any other class?

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Divine toll is still targeting pets this build for Holy Paladin. It can currently target: Monk statue, army of the dead, dk pets, hunter pets, mirror images, etc.

This gives divine toll a pretty big chance in raid to do no healing at all when you press it. For something as big of a choice as covenants, this bug/functionality really needs to be fixed. Divine toll is on a 1 minute cd that should be relied on to do a decent amount of raid healing when you use it, the fact it can hit pets completely ruins its intended power level/functionality. You shouldn’t have to worry about it doing nothing when you use it, this ruins the covenant ability in any large group setting with multiple pets. Please look into this.

Edit: Sigma responded below, this should be fixed this build.

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  • Holy Power change sounds much better, thank you.

  • How much mitigation are we talking? Raid encounter design often favors movement, so if the mitigation benefit for standing in Consecration is too large, Protection might end up feeling terrible on fights with high movement demands, especially considering Consecration’s cooldown was increased for Shadowlands (good example of a fight where this could be a problem is Psychus phases in N’zoth).

  • I recall that mechanic; it was interesting. How high does the stacking going? If it takes too long to build the stacks up, you could easily create a scenario where it feels wrong to press Word of Glory when you don’t have full stacks, which would be counterproductive to what you’re trying to do here. Personally, I’d say that if it generally takes 1 GCD to generate a charge of Holy Power AND 1 GCD to cast Shield of the Righteous (meaning 4 GCDs per Shield in general), then you probably want to cap the stacks at 2 and give the buff a moderately long duration. (Maybe 12 to 15 seconds?) That way you can build up the buff pretty quickly and hold onto it until it’s needed.

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It stacks to 5 with a 15 second duration.

I preferred Shining Light tbh. Feels like a waste to cast Word of Glory now that it means I’m not casting SotR

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It stacks to 5. So 100% increased healing. Old version was a free heal.

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Divine Toll, when cast on a friendly target, should be behaving like a typical smart heal (as of today). It can heal anything, but will favor injured targets, and player targets.

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Thank you! Can’t test in a large group again for a bit but will test it again later. That’s a great fix.

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@Sigma; Are you aware that more mitigation was taken out of SOTR than was added to Consecration?

Standing in Consecration with SOTR up as of today’s build is approximately 4% less physical mitigation than the previous build. The SOTR armour reduction is approximately a 9% increase in physical damage taken, while Consecrate only offsets a little more than half that.

The number to be breakeven would be for SOTR to be 150% armour down from 190%, not 120% down from 190%.

Is a net nerf to paladin’s survivability with SOTR + consecrate active the intended effect?

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This is not exactly correct.

Using a character with 215 item level from beta that has

1202 strength
1812 unbuffed armor
5.9% dr from mastery

you get:

Using Mythic K value, before today’s patch you would have 57% damage reduction vs. physical with ShotR up or (4095/ (4095+3050)). If you factor in Mastery, you’ll have 59% Total Damage Reduction (1-(1-.57)* (1-.059))

After the patch, you would have only 3254 armor with ShotR up meaning you have ~51% or (3254 / (3254+3050)) damage reduction from armor.

But you’re also getting 5% free DR which is calculated as Mastery DR + 5 which in this case is 10.9% DR. Together you get (1-(1-.51)* (1-.109)) or 56% damage reduction vs. physical with ShotR up.

The difference in EHP is (1-.59)/(1-.56) or .93 which translates to a loss of ~7% EHP loss against physical but a net gain against magic.

The break even ShotR Strength bonus would be 160% where the before and after values would be near equal.

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Thanks for listening to the Prot comments about Judgment Holy Power. There is a major issue with the WoG change though.

Making us less “swingy” is always an improvement. Much Appreciated.

Please Revert This It’s unclear if this is actually a benefit.

  • The more dangerous a situation you’re in, the worse this gets.
  • In safer situations, it has 0 value compared to throwing support heals.

Testing atm it seems like it stacks up to 5, for a total of 100%, which for my template 100 gear on beta training dummies typically is a bonus value of ~10k. Given that it now costs 1 Shield of the Righteous (template gear says ~18% dr), if I’m in a high damage intake fight/situation with at least 50k dtps incoming, it means healing with WoG is a mistake.

Don’t get me wrong, the bonus healing is nice, but unless Paladin is redesigned to hit 100% mitigation uptime, the better option in most cases is going to be resource reduction.

Maybe this is a nice option for specific circumstances where SotR is useless, but removing the cost reduction does horrible things for all other situations.

It was bad enough WoG is still on the GCD (PLEASE REMOVE), but now it’s ability to be used as a reactive emergency heal is further reduced.

Edit: Also realized that this change costed us half of our “low health scaling” (300%->150%). No wonder it didn’t feel stronger, this was an explicit nerf.

15 Likes

Ya, this is a sad Nerf. You have to work your tail off to get 5 stacks (back to old Shining Light) and then it cost 3 HP. Once you get 5 stacks it should at least be a free cast that you can save for a emergency. That was the beauty and awesome synergy of the old spell. One step forward and 2 steps back.

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Retribution Feedback

Auras

  • Blessing of Kings was changed into Devotion Aura.
  • Heart of the Crusader was changed into Crusader Aura.
  • Retribution was changed into Retribution Aura.

All of these passives are now global cooldowns in Shadlowlands. This is a problem, because now there are more global cooldowns that have to be managed. Retribution Aura is bad and will never be used over Devotion Aura, because it provides no benefit outside of a group and it relies upon your group members failing at the game (dying); I have no idea why its damage mitigation was removed entirely. Dying is counter-intuitive to all game content.

Rotation

The Retribution rotation will still have a dead spot where you are stuck auto attacking. This is due to Crusader Strike having a cooldown with only 2 charges.

  • Templar’s Verdict is still around half of our DPS outside of AOE.

This is because Blade of Justice and Crusader Strike and Wake of Ashes deal physical and “radiant” damage rather than holy damage, and thus do not synergize with the Retribution Mastery—a problem other classes do not have. Crusader Strike physical damage is also low for a charged cooldown, dealing less damage than an auto attack.

Covenant Abilities

  • Necrolord is good for single target.
  • Venthyr is good for AOE.
  • Kyrian is mediocre for both.

Conduits

  • Virtuous Command duration of 4 seconds is too short. It’s already only a 20% chance to deal only 10% more damage, and since half of our DPS is in Templar’s Verdict (which also procs this conduit), the likelihood of building up another one of those within 4 seconds is minimal.

  • Templar’s Vindication 15% proc chance is also too low. Compounding procs is not a good solution for any class’ rotation. This has been a notable problem for Retribution in past expansions like Classic and Burning Crusade.

  • Expurgation requires a critical hit. More compounding procs.

  • Righteous Might — I would like to see this convert the shadow damage into holy rather than doubling the shadow damage dealt.

The compounded proc-based damage modifier problem is made worse a fortiori by proc-based class talents such as Divine Purpose (15%), Empyrean Power (15%), Fires of Justice (15%), and Final Reckoning.

Legendary

Arguably the best legendary for Ret is Final Verdict, which replaces Templar’s Verdict with a slightly stronger version and has a 50% chance to activate Hammer of Wrath. More compounding procs on top of the ability that does half our total damage output.

  • Hammer of Wrath’s damage is also pitifully low for a sub 20% health execute ability compared to all other classes with an execute.

Conclusion and PVP

Retribution’s main problems are:

  1. Lack of damage variance (half of Ret damage output in a single ability)
  2. Overly proc-based damage modifiers
  3. Lack of mobility
  4. Lack of damage mitigation

Because of these problems, there is simply no reason to take a Retribution paladin over another class in competitive end-game content and PVP.

  • Divine Steed (which loses 20% movement speed in Shadowlands if Crusader Aura isn’t active) is virtually useless and unwanted by the community.
  • Divine Shield gets removed by more classes and abilities in PVP in Shadowlands.

All edits are for better readability

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