FEEDBACK: Paladin Class Changes

Along similar lines, Shield of the Righteous being unpruned is going to drive me CRAZY because I will not want it on my action bars, but currently the UI is designed so that if there’s a spell in your spellbook that isn’t on your action bars it’s highlighted with a shimmering gold aura to remind you to put it there, and no UI, Shield of the Righteousness doesn’t belong on my bar I have a two-handed sword.

8 Likes

̶S̶o̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶l̶o̶o̶k̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶N̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶F̶a̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶v̶e̶n̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶d̶a̶t̶a̶m̶i̶n̶e̶d̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶l̶p̶h̶a̶ ̶b̶u̶i̶l̶d̶.̶ ̶W̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶,̶ ̶I̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶d̶e̶f̶i̶n̶i̶t̶i̶v̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶i̶t̶s̶ ̶c̶u̶r̶r̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶d̶e̶s̶i̶g̶n̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶g̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶f̶e̶e̶l̶ ̶a̶w̶f̶u̶l̶.̶ ̶1̶5̶ ̶s̶e̶c̶o̶n̶d̶s̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶s̶i̶m̶p̶l̶y̶ ̶f̶a̶r̶ ̶t̶o̶o̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶r̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶a̶n̶ ̶i̶n̶t̶e̶r̶v̶a̶l̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶e̶d̶i̶c̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶G̶C̶D̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶(̶I̶’̶m̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶g̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶s̶s̶u̶m̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶’̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶G̶C̶D̶ ̶g̶i̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶B̶l̶i̶z̶z̶a̶r̶d̶’̶s̶ ̶a̶d̶a̶m̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶:̶ ̶G̶C̶D̶s̶)̶.̶
edit: I didn’t properly read the blog post. Blessings doesn’t work like this :slight_smile:

From a mythic raiding perspective, I can already tell it’s going to be mandatory to have one paladin go Night Fae—no matter how much that Paladin thinks vampires are cool. What happened to "bring the player, not the class(-with-a-specific-covenant)? This covenant ability is opening up a huge can of worms with the amount of utility it brings. It’s a fundamentally flawed ability in its current design, and that shouldn’t be something you try to fix with numbers tuning. I simply don’t trust this “we’ll tune the numbers” approach to balancing choices when fundamentally stronger options like Blessing of Seasons exist. It has never worked in the past, so I have no reason to believe it will work this time.

This is yet another example of some kind of power creep that is broken-by-design where, in the past, Blizzard have thrown their hands up and allowed it to simply be the meta for an entire expansion. I’m thinking of examples like Glimmer of Light. While Glimmer was a very fun addition to Paladin, did Blizzard try to balance other playstyles (determined by talent builds, azerite traits)? No. We never saw any sort of tuning towards never-taken talents (i.e. any talent that wasn’t Crusader’s Might/Holy Avenger/Sanctified Wrath/Divine Purpose). Instead, we got Glimmer on every piece of new Azerite, all but confirming that this is the only playstyle we are allowed to play. So, the entire talent tree and azerite system was diluted into an illusion of choice.

This is again being set-up with covenant abilities with insane utility like Blessing of Seasons, and I’m not sure I want to endure another expansion full of illusions of choice. If only 1 of the 4 covenant abilities adds utility to the raid, I’m going to take that 1 any day of the week. I would really prefer if all covenant abilities were limited to augmenting our characters, and possibly indirectly helping the raid. To me, its current iteration makes my covenant choice feel anything like anything but a personal choice, which seems antithetical to the covenant system as a whole.

All that being said, I’m glad Blizzard has gone with the option of making conduits (soulbinds?) a channel for modifying the abilities to our liking. I have a hard time wrapping my head around how this can alter the fundamental problem of Blessing of Seasons being a strong utility ability, though. I hope I’m wrong!

20 Likes

You may have missed it, but it’s a bit more detailed in the blog post from Blizzard. If you push the button every 15 seconds you are cycling through the blessings. Not applying each blessing. So think of it as a 15 second cooldown on the button, but you’re limited to 1 blessing provided at most. Some of those blessings you’ll likely want the full 1 min duration, so you’d press the button to activate it, wait 1 min, press again to get the next buff, and then if you don’t like that one press it after 15 seconds, etc. But if there isn’t at least 2 buffs you want, then yeah it’s 15s > 15s > 15s > 1 min sort of rotation but a 1 min > 15s > 1 min > 15s rotation is less bad I guess.

Oh, gotcha. I didn’t know that. That’s a lot better than I thought gameplay wise.

1 Like

Yeah there’s still the question of whether the blessings are unique to the target or unique to the paladin. By that I mean can a target have only 1 ‘season’ blessing on them regardless of the number of paladins in their party or can they have only 1 per paladin. I.e., I wonder if you have 2 paladins in a 5 man party do they have to do some kind of crazy syncing so that paladin A is blessing summer and paladin B is blessing not-summer or will paladin B’s blessing regardless of the season simply overwrite paladin A’s blessing. If they are able to be sync’d then you could have something like

PaladinA (Summer) 1 min -> Fall 1min -> Winter …
PaladinB (Winter) 1 min -> Spring 1min -> Summer …

Which would mean each paladin is using 1 gcd per minute to collectively keep a 50% uptime on all blessings for the party.

Word of Glory was buffed recently on alpha, in particular for Holy.

Some people have seen, but, a few things not clear on Blessing of the Seasons from tooltips alone: the party is only in one Season at a time (whichever you’ve cast most recently). So you are not simply pressing a button every 15 seconds to maintain 4 buffs. You can let each season last anywhere from 15-60s. Assuming you have a favored buff based on role/context, that you want to keep for 60s, it’s more like 4 presses every 2 minutes, but you might vary that based on planning ahead to have certain buffs at certain times.

Ashen Hallow was pretty recently iterated upon, and its tuning might be pretty far off. Increasing value or reducing cooldown could both be options there, although increasing value might be preferable because the visual is so enormous. Also, a long cooldown is better contrast to the other Paladin options.

Seraphim + Inquisition is uncomfortable, we agree. Candidly, one reason it’s hard to address is that there’s probably a split among people thinking one or the other would be cooler to keep. Open problem for now.

Shield of the Righteous: This is an example (with respect to Ret and Holy) of something there hasn’t been much of in the past two expansions or so. A button mainly intended for another spec, that is given to the class while leveling, that you don’t have a strictly clear max-level use for. You certainly can use it, and one can imagine situations where you would. But if you don’t, or don’t put it on your bar, that’s fine. Our current thinking is that instead of taking it away when you choose your specialization, we can just … not. We are discussing the UI that lights up buttons you don’t have on your bar, for cases like this.

9 Likes

I’m still concerned about Blessing of Summer even after the nerf in the latest build. If it only affects you, it does more damage than other options. Once you add party members then it really pulls ahead. At 25% SP its just too high. It should be closer to 5-8% imo because it has to be only a portion of the abilities strength and not the underlying driver of the strength.

What about tuning the Hammer of Wrath interaction-- could consider options like reducing HoW’s cooldown for the duration, increasing HoW’s damage, or its Holy Power generation.

2 Likes

Thanks for the updates!

I was wondering if you’d consider doing another pass on the Venthyr and Necrolord Covenant abilities to make them not deal Shadow Damage. While it does fit the Covenants themes, it’s less Paladin-y. Maybe Arcane instead, or Nature?

Hpals at least are gonna use SotR a lot in Dungeons imo, its uncapped and you can press Holy Avenger and Wings and slam aoe dmg spamming SotR. Should make for some fun gameplay.

11 Likes

It’s good to have updates thank you for that.

I really want to know if you are looking at our poor mobility right now. Any plan on that? New talents, replacing spell ( divine steed cough cough )

24 Likes

Here are some issues that pop into my head immediately involving Holy Paladins and Shield of the Righteous.

  • Does the tankiest healer in the game really need a damage reduction Holy Power spender?

  • What happens when Holy Paladins use a Sword-and-Shield set up, but want to transmog into their artifact appearance? Can they just … not?

  • Does this mean we’re not going to see any Intellect two-handed maces again? 2H Holy wasn’t for everyone, but it was SUPER cool and definitely something I’d like to see be viable.

If we’re going to keep Shield of the Righteous baseline, is there a way it could just not have a “Requires a Shield” requirement? The spell’s animation could be changed so it conjures a shield animation over your shield arm to keep the flavor; the lightforged one that Seraphim uses maybe? That would solve the UI problem, let Ret and Holy use it no matter what kind of gear they’re using, and Shield of the Righteous to be the default Holy Power spender all Paladins share that it wants to be.

If the concern is that it removes some of the uniqueness from Protection, a Rank 2 could always be added to Protection. (I’m a big fan of Protection getting Holy Shield baseline as a counterpoint to Protection Warrior’s baseline critical block personally; give both shield-using tank specs a baseline passive that lets them block in fundamentally different ways.)

7 Likes

Thank you for the replies! It made my day yesterday to see that my comment about the UI element was specifically addressed.

1 Like

Transmog is a visual change. It doesn’t affect mechanics in anyway or limit the use of abilities.

This is an issue for multiple classes such as Shield Block for Arms Warrior. There are going to be abilities that take up spots in the spell book that just won’t be used or bound by some players. That’s perfectly ok and the game is perfectly fine (and I would argue better) with that paradigm in place compared to how things are in BFA.

3 Likes

My point about transmog was that you could be a Holy Paladin who looks like they’re using a two-handed weapon, but you’re technically not so BOOM Shield of the Righteous. That’s kind of unfair in PvP, and it sort of is against the point of “Requires Shields.” But if you can’t use Shield of the Righteous while your Legion artifact is transmog, then that’s game mechanics unfairly affecting cosmic options. (Because Holy IS unquestionably more powerful if it has access to a Holy Power spender that reduces their damage taken while dealing damage.)

I’m curious about why it’s better game design to have abilities in your class spellbook that you can’t use. In my experience as a TTRPG designer, that’s the hallmark of a trap option that ends up getting players upset at you.

You’re going to know its a Holy Paladin. You’ll see the visual of the artifact itself. You can also check the mana pool or the abilities they cast.

Not expecting Shield of the Righteous just sounds like said player doesn’t understand what each class can do. There is a learning curve to counterplay in PvP.

Three points here:

  1. Every Holy Power they spend on ShotR is Holy Power they can’t spend on healing. That type of choice in the resource system is perfectly fine. Its no different than an Unholy Death Knight using Runic Power on Death Strike instead of Death Coil.

  2. ShotR is only an armor increase which only reduces some types of physical damage. It doesn’t work on magic, bleeds, et al.

  3. ShotR gives significantly less armor for Holy compared to Prot. It also won’t scale for them through out the expansion (since Holy doesn’t get any Strength from Gear) meaning ShotR will become a smaller percentage of their total armor as time goes on.

Using the textbook definition of a trap, you’re right. Outside of some specific cases, these abilities provide no real mechanical benefit to some specs.

However, its still better for WoW as a whole that these abilities exist. It makes the leveling experience far more complete where you can get something at every level. It also adds flavor to classes. If I have to pick between complete classes with a few traps vs. empty classes that lack flavor, I’ll pick the former over the later.

12 Likes

And the UI issue you mention is easy to solve. The highlight should be removed completely.

3 Likes

Right, you’ll know it’s a Holy Paladin. But you won’t know that the Holy Paladin is using a sword + shield instead of a two-hander (because the Silver Hand is a two-handed appearance that can be applied to one-handed + off-hand), and therefore can use Shield of the Righteous against you.

Three Counterpoints here:

  1. Holy power spent defending yourself from a melee attacker who’s damage will primarily be reduced by Shield of the Righteous is still an increase in power. Versatility of options is still a net increase in power because it lets you respond to threats in additional ways. I agree with you that it’s good gameplay to give classes ways to use their resources outside of their usual roles, though.

  2. Just because Shield of the Righteous doesn’t protect you against everybody doesn’t mean that its presence in the Holy kit doesn’t increase their power (see above). Warriors are getting more power by having access to ignore pain even though ignore pain only works on physical damage too.

  3. Do we know for certain that Shield of the Righteous isn’t getting adjusted to scale off of Int for Holy? Word of Glory currently does that on live (Int for Holy, Str for Prot and Ret). Numbers tuning hasn’t happened yet after all.

Ignore pain works on all damage types. Its an absorb.

I’ve looked at the numbers on Alpha and it does not scale with Intellect. Word of Glory scales based on Spell Power, not primary stat. For Prot and Ret, this is a just a function of Attack Power (which is based on primary stat + other calculations).

3 Likes

Been playing around on the pally here are my thoughts.

Auras being back doesn’t really add anything to the class they didn’t need to come back, just set it and forget about it. Hopefully retribution aura gets completely changed I can’t see ever using it as it is unless there are 3 pallys in the group, would like to see it go to something that is usefully even if you are alone.

Prot

Really like the feel of prot they did a good job with it, as long as their holy power generation stays high.

Holy

Haven’t like holy much since they changed the mastery wish they would change it again. Also not a fan of the melee play stile, I can see where it can be good but if you aren’t doing it your holy power generation is really slow. Would like to see the first talent row be a pick your holy power generator like crusader’s might makes crusader strike give holy power and Bestow faith gives holy power and so on. That way you could do a melee spec, a full healing spec and something in between. Holy also needs a aoe holy power spender.

Ret

Feels a little slow but that’s normal for the start of an x-pac as long as it gets better once you hit cap and have some gear. Concentration being baseline is nice but mostly for the fact that it gives us a new talent, it might be in the rotation early on but once you get gear I can’t see using it anymore unless its damage is op. Wake being baseline is great would prefer to keep it giving 5 holy power or a shorter cd over it hitting harder but not a huge deal I’ll get used to it only giving 3. Please remove healing hands and put back the word of glory talent that’s on live, I can’t ever see using healing hands.

14 Likes