FEEDBACK: Paladin Class Changes

I think auras could be fleshed out a little bit more, devo is great and more than likely going to be a reason for a holy paladin to be a mandatory part of a healing comp, but retribution aura feels sort of like a selfish aura to pick in something like keys knowing you can be in devo and preventing damage. The other aura from my eyes seems like my game plan for dealing with priests/warlocks going into shadowlands in arenas when paired up with a specific conduit, but it existing alone I don’t see any reason to use it in almost any scenario unless niche circumstance. Crusader aura is actually cool as it noticeably saves times on run backs in keys after a wipe, and I think for the sole purpose of travel I don’t mind having it around.

I’m guessing there is probably some balance game being played here where they don’t want to make too many useful aura’s otherwise you’d have a sea of pink in raids, and I guess this concept is also applicable if you gave devo to both ret and holy

8 Likes

Some initial feedback after playing about 8 keys on Holy Paladin (this is mostly centered around dungeon play, haven’t tried raid testing or PvP yet):

Good stuff:

  1. HoPo adds interest and complexity to Holy Paladin. I know many aren’t looking forward to this, but I’m happy to see some more depth come to the class. The current retail build is fast-paced and powerful, but there’s very little opportunity to show mastery of the spec over a novice, beyond not casting Crusader Strike when it wouldn’t actually benefit Holy Shock. Having another layer to gameplay - and one that can also be converted into damage with SotR - is fun, in my opinion. I’m sure some others will disagree, but I find it a good change.
  2. Divine Toll is amazing, maybe too much so for dungeons. The combination of Divine Toll, Glimmer of Light, and the Shock Barrier legendary is a very powerful 1m CD in dungeons. It’s fantastic and a lot of fun, but might be too powerful right now for just 1m. Granted, this is literally where it is at its zenith in power (so it will fall off in other situations), but it’s something to keep an eye on. But DT overall is a fantastic covenant ability, and frankly I’m just not really interested in looking at the other ones, they seem to bland in comparison.
  3. Thank you for giving us HoW baseline. This is a great tool, both for adding damage (something we all like), but also for this interesting interaction where our healing ability increases late in a fight, due to extra HoPo generation. I think that’s a cool niche to have. It’s not a huge gain, but it’s present and a way for expert Holy Paladins to shine.

Bad stuff:

  1. Auras are useless. It feels like someone said “Hey, let’s add Auras back to Paladins! Those were awesome, right?” but didn’t think about how the game has changed since Auras were around. There are effectively 2 Auras - Devo and Conc - and then 2 Auras that were stolen from existing passives and made incredibly clunky tack-ons just to fill out the bar. I’m all for Auras coming back, if it makes sense, but as it is right now it’s very unfun to have to devote GCDs to swap between these effects. Ret Aura in particular seems almost Machiavellian, the idea that you would take a GCD while your party is dying to instead swap into an Aura to benefit from a death, rather than take that GCD to try to heal.
    Proposal: Revert Ret and Crusader Auras to passives and instead look into other effects to add in as Auras (such as the old Ret Aura, adding a new spell damage resist Aura and setting Devo back to Armor, or something else), or just scrap Auras all-together.
  2. Holy Light and Flash of Light feel weak and uninteresting. Unlike Holy Shock and its tight interplay with Holy Power, HL and FoL feel very bland and weak. The change to IoL means that Flash of Light now heals for a very small amount in all situations (while costing a ton of mana), and leaves you with an odd partial GCD if you cast it during IoL. IoL effectively does nothing for FoL. HL gets more of a benefit, but it’s a colossally slow spell in all circumstances now, and it’s rare you have that long to stand still and cast without a penalty, and also that you have that long to wait before you would be delaying another cast which could generate HoPo for you. It’s not a good situation when your main heals feel like a fall-back or also-ran option over what you want to be pressing.
    Proposal: Change IoL, either by having it make FoL/HL grant a HoPo when cast with the IoL effect, or allow IoL to stack so that the effect can be improved (such as 2 stacks making FoL instant, or making HL a huge bomb of a heal).
  3. LoD is in a sad state. It’s almost always the wrong decision to cast this ability right now, even when you can actually hit 5 damaged allies with it. For dungeon healing especially, having it even on your bar is a trap for newer Holy Paladins, and if I were writing a guide for SL M+ I would advise new Paladins to not bind it at all. LoD needs a buff, or honestly a general rework would be better at this point - LoD hasn’t been a fun ability since its rework into its current form for Legion.
    Proposal: Go back to something more like Holy Radiance for the AoE HoPo consumer. To add some variety (and get away from everything consuming 3 HoPo), perhaps this could consume all available HoPo for an increased effect and radius. If possible, a spell where you literally keep holding the button down to keep consuming HoPo beyond the initial 3 cost (not just a channel that you have to break with movement or escape) could give the player more options here.

Other suggestions:

  1. Make Beacon of Faith only reduce the healing transferred if you have both Beacons active. This would allow for more flexibility with the talent, only having 1 Beacon up when only one is needed. The main issue with this is that it’s clumsy to try to un-cast an existing Beacon, so this would have to be improved (such as casting Beacon of Faith on a Beacon of Light target overwriting the BoL with BoF, and vice versa).
  2. Consider the large ramifications to PvP with the IoL change. PvP Holy Paladin revolves around massively buffed, quick cast Holy Lights, and that’s completely gone now. I’m not a big PvP’er so I’ll let others more capable weigh in, but it seems like the cornerstone of that playstyle is completely upended now. General improvements to IoL like mentioned above might help, but better PvP talents that don’t center as much throughput onto Holy Light might be good as well.
  3. Make Awakening trigger off of SotR, too. I doubt anyone will take this talent anyway, but a slight improvement for dungeons would be to have it trigger on all HoPo spenders. That at least helps shore up its DPS capabilities - though again, I don’t see it competing with SW. Though I am curious about a DP/Awakening build with high Haste levels.
  4. Change the bonus effect on activating Avenging Wrath. Under AW, Holy Shock already has a base 60% crit chance, and even with our pitiful secondary stat levels right now my Holy Shock crit chance is 77%. Can we change this effect to something like Chaos Bolt, where the first Holy Shock’s effect is increased by your crit chance? Or make it both auto-crit and also get a 50% bonus to its crit effect, like the passive for Ele Shamans?
11 Likes

We just had Potency Conduits revealed, will be testing tonight but most of them seem straightforward, so here is some immediate feedback for Ret:

Ret Spec Conduits

I know #'s for balance are subject to change, but some of them seem very uninspired.

  • [Templar’s Vindication] Templar’s Verdict has a 15% chance to strike again for 15% of its damage.

  • [Virtuous Command] Judgment grants you Seal of Command for 4 sec, granting your Templar’s Verdict, Crusader Strike, Blade of Justice, and weapon attack a 10% chance of dealing 10% additional Holy damage.

These seem like the major conduits for Ret, and both of them amount to “Small chance for Small amount of damage”. Neither of these seem interesting or exciting. If we had abilities that cared about multiple small hits of holy damage as part of the core kit it could be more interesting (like old Judgment of the Crusader flat holy dmg bonus).

Covenant Ability Conduits

All of these seem to build further into problems with the Covenant abilities rather than solve them.

  • [Prolonged Autumn]Blessing of Autumn lasts 30% longer.

Autumn is certainly the season we care about, but this doesn’t address the problems with season cycle itself. Ideally we would plan to have Summer/Autumn most of the time, Winter only really in pvp, and Spring for a utility healer CD. If ideally we want to time our seasons to match fight events, and Prolonged Autumn just makes that timing more irregular. If this type of conduit made the effect last into the next seasons, it would be more beneficial. Personally I don’t like either the season cycle or the 30sec buff micromanagement, but that’s feedback for a different post.

  • [Righteous Might] Vanquisher’s Hammer deals 100% more damage and heals you for the damage done.

Relatively safe value for the ability. Nothing negative to say, but nothing positive either.

  • [Ringing Clarity] Divine Toll has a 30% chance to cast twice on any given target.

The current issues with Divine Toll are from 2 factors.

  1. There is a huge issue of Feast or Famine on this Ability. It feels powerful on multi targets, and not worth pushing on single targets.

  2. Judgment itself isn’t as exciting as Avenger’s Shield or Holy Shock, and therefor the ability isn’t particularly exciting.

In situations where we have a full 5 targets, an extra holy power from the cast is completely wasted and the effects of judgment don’t benefit from multiple hits. On small groups it barely becomes better than normal Judgment uses.

  • [Hallowed Discernment] Ashen Hallow strikes the lowest health ally and enemy within it for 20% of its effect.

Visually you have a large vibrant aoe on a large cooldown. Mechanically you have a cast time followed by a small single target trickle of damage. Adding execute damage to it is nice, but even then, the lowest health enemy/ally may not be the one you want to hit/heal.

Overall: Ret still faces many problems both mechanically and with balance. The Ret specific traits don’t have an impact on gameplay at all. If part of the plan for Conduit design is to balance out the Covenant abilities, it feels like we are moving in any direction but better.

Edit: Updating with some from Beta that were not on WoWhead. (Also number differences between wowhead - beta)

  • Truth’s Wake - 10% more dmg from Wake.

Not really interesting or exciting, but I guess damage is ok.

  • Light’s Reach - Blade of Justice +20yd range, +20% dmg

I think this is the baseline for what Conduits should probably go for. Scaling spec related power with some added dps bonus. Solid Conduit.

16 Likes

Just to throw this out there. With all the Protection Conduits, and some Protection Legendaries, they’ll be able to pull bigger numbers compared to Ret given what they currently have now. Even with number tuning come launch, without a doubt will be seeing Protection pull some big numbers.

Also with the current build, if you are Kyrian as Ret, and recently put in the Conduit that grants you “Seal of Command,” Divine Toll doesn’t proc Seal of Command at all. I also know number tuning is still to happen, I could probably have a level 1 do more damage compared to Seal of Command. Would seem like a waste to bring this back and to make it pretty useless.

11 Likes

I would like to see Lay on Hands usable in arenas again. It’s not nearly as strong as everyone thinks it is. The cooldown makes it so you can only use it once and ret is sorely in need of an additional defensive option. Eye for an Eye is far too niche a pick given the talents it competes with and since divine protection looks like its off the menu again, this is an easy fix. Either that or give back blessing of Kings and make the shield worthwhile. Additionally, crusader strike is so weak its almost not worth pushing, it does less damage then an auto attack. I’d like to see the damage on it buffed to at least deal comparable damage.

Since I mentioned Blessing of Kings above and in a previous post I am once again asking you to give back Blessing of Kings and Blessing of Wisdom and/or Blessing of Might. In the “unpruning patch” it’s inconceivable that such iconic abilities would be removed. It’s not unpruning if you take away something with a legacy as long as WoW is old from the class that made buffing so important.

I’d like to see Blade of Justice or Crusader Strike have a Holy damage component added to them. Crusader Strike does such little damage it would be absolutely justified. Templar’s Verdict is our main damage source but by such a large margin that the rest of our buttons have hardly any merit.

I don’t want to criticize too much, but I’d say way too much time has been spent on reworking Blessing of Seasons and not enough time spent on the meat and bones of the class. As far as I remember Inquistion + Seraphim is still listed as an “open problem” since the Alpha phase.

Lastly, as many have echoed before, please change Retribution Aura.

23 Likes

Yeah i agree, i was actually hoping we were gonna get our blessings back but it seems like it is. :confused:

1 Like

Covenants are still so underwhelming with this build, seasons (specifically autumn) I guess gets stronger since it’s the only conduit that is seemingly worth anything at first glance. and as mentioned before this covenant seems like the go to for pve based content atleast with raiding, and it’s ties with an existing legendary sort of makes it alot stronger.

Atleast speaking for ret the divine toll one is extremely lame, while it’s extremely worthwhile to get any extra procs of holy shock or shields for prot paladin overwriting an existing judgment (and extra holy power?) seems underwhelming, the other specs even gaining something significant on multi target from this, ret sort of loses out on at a certain point asside from raw damage from the ability as we cap at 5 holy power and divine storm has a 5 target cap.

Two of the retribution specific conduits are also pretty rng, I’m not sure what exactly to say specifically but I’d like to see all of the conduit options offering consistent dps like the BoJ/Wake ones.

Not sure if Ashen Hallow can be saved without significant mechanical changes, ability will still feel horrible to use even with the conduit.

Also Vanquisher’s Hammer conduit should maybe also include reducing the holy power cost to 0, ability still feels really bad to use due to the fact that in my head i feel like i should throw my hammer then do a finisher, but in some scenarios 3 holy power might be all you have to work with so you go down to 2, generate again then cast a finisher. I feel like the covenant ability should feel easy to use in any scenario.

16 Likes

After doing some raid testing with Holy, I like the overall play-style of building holy power and using it on mostly Word of Glory, and with more haste it should be a lot of fun playing it in raid. Holy Light and Flash of Light are pretty bad to use. I think it would be nice if you’d get a holy power if you used it on anyone instead of just your Beacon target to make you want to press it once and a while. Right now I’m just using Holy Shock and Crusader Strike/Hammer of Wrath while using the holy power on Word of Glory. Glimmer and the Shock Barrier legendary feel like they fit well with the play-style. Divine Toll and the new Holy Avenger are a lot of fun. I wish Holy Avenger was off the GCD and the cooldown was reduced to two minutes. It makes the class a lot faster and more fun while its up. I think being able to press it more often would make the class a lot more engaging. After everything I’ve tested so far Hpal feels like its gonna be a lot of fun in the next expac and a few changes could make it great.

5 Likes

My raid testing experience today was fun i really like the light of the martyr conduit because it allows me to use a filler since flash of light doesn’t really heal and mana inefficient. Holy power is really fun to use i just wish judgement added holy power especially if you’re not in range of a boss- light of dawn feels really bad to use, the healing doesn’t do much so i would use holy power on word of glory even if the raid needed AOE healing. Being a kyrian pally helps a lot with glimmer because of divine toll but feels hard to upkeep 8 glimmers up like you can on live; someone suggested allowing word of glory to apply glimmer which would be really neat. I really would like to play night fae but being night fae you dont have access to divine toll so having 8 glimmers on people, especially in raid is quite difficult and seems like you would just use double beacon. Holy avenger being 3 minutes feels really bad and hopefully can be reverted back to 2 minutes. TLDR holy light is too slow and when i tried to use it today in raid the target i was attempting to heal with it was already healed before i could get the cast off and when i used flash of light i would just use light of the martyr instead cause it does a lot of healing at full stacks so what was the point of using holy light or flash of light when one is slow and one doesn’t do much healing. :frowning:

3 Likes

also quick thing i thought of- crusader strike costing 2,400 i think is kinda absurd i get that it has mana now because it gives you holy power but i feel like it should be lowered a bit X_X

4 Likes

Another slight idea for Retribution concerning the Kyrian Covenant ability. With the new Conduit “Seal of Command,” what if this can say, stack depending on how many Judgements you throw out from Divine Toll? Slightly make this more worth-while after a buff is done to the Conduit itself as it still seems to be pretty bad concerning output. Increase Seal of Commands proc chance and increase its duration to 8 or so seconds. This would be another change to make this Covenant way better for Ret instead of changing the Covenant class ability altogether, even though I wouldn’t mind more changes to it. An example of a change that would be nice would be to make the Judgement from Divine Toll burn the target for 500% Holy Damage. A change needs to be done to make this really good for single target.

13 Likes

Holy Paladin Talents

Currently, the level 15 row is a dead row due to how Holy Power is generated, Below is the image of the row

Level 15 Holy Paladin Row

Currently, Crusader’s Might is the only real option as we use Crusader Strike by default for Holy Power but it also lets us get back Holy Shock for more holy power, Bestow Faith, and Light’s Hammer suffers from the same problem, There is no Holy Power generation from these!

A suggestion on how to make this row competitive is to make Bestow Faith and Light’s Hammer generate some Holy Power.

Bestow Faith generates 2 Holy Power, 1 on Cast, and 1 on the delayed heal so this gives us some other way of generating Holy Power when not in melee.

Light’s Hammer can generate X Holy Power over the course of its duration and make it a possible choice in some scenarios (Last time I actively remember this being used as on Varimathras in Antorus but it was only used if a certain amount of healers was used)

Infusion of Light Feedback

Currently, on live and beta we ignore Infusion of Light (IoL) due to it not playing with the glimmer style (Live) and not generating any holy power (Beta, It’s also inverted on beta which makes no sense in why I would want an even faster Flash of Light), One way to bring IoL back into use by paladins is to let it generate holy power, It will make it worth casting Holy Light (HL) or Flash of Light (FoL), This also means paladins will need to care about their mana as well as mindlessly spending it all on FoL can drain mana as right now, We still ignore it even in dungeons when you would expect it to help.

9 Likes

A Comprehensive Feedback for Ret

Core Changes

  • Retribution Aura - Sorry to start off on a bad foot, but this ability is a miss. Auras are supposed to be a representation of a Paladin sharing benefits with raid/party members. By having this compete for an Aura slot, any player that picks it is depriving their party of another Aura effect. If you want ideal value out of it, i.e. when the raid is dying at the end of an encounter, you’re choosing to take away 3% less taken from your allies, for your own personal benefit. I can understand the need for Auras, but put this back to a generic passive. This also has absolutely 0 value when alone.

  • Crusader Aura - I feel like there was concern mentioned by development about the amount of “tasks” required before combat. I.e. Talents/Essences/Gear choices that needed to be taken into consideration before combat starts, and this feels like another chance to forget. In gameplay so far, I have never come across a chance to give others the aura (Dungeons/The maw for grp content), and more often will forget that its active instead of Devo aura when in combat. This then of course costs 1 gcd to fix. If possible, I would make it a quality of all Paladin aura’s, that by nature of being in range of an aura, you are granted the Crusader Aura as well. You can still have the buff show up, it still fulfills the aura class fantasy, but isn’t in the same category of otherwise Combat abilities.

  • Other Auras - Now, if you were to remove Crusader/Retribution Aura, leaving only Devotion and Concentration, that would certainly be lackluster. I feel you could fill in the Aura row with things like
    Aura of Mercy as a flat healing Aura (retired from Holy)
    – Change Retribution Aura into something like a 3% Damage bonus (Similar to the DH buff)*
    – Possibly add a “slow resistance” aura, or rework Crusader to just be flat move speed in combat (small % ofcourse)
    – Honestly seems like plenty of options here

  • Wake of Ashes - Going from 5 Holy Power to 3 feels pretty bad. I guess tuning will see if this is appropriate for holy power generation, but I would rather have it as a 60sec CD with 5 HP than 45 leaving 2 empty HP. This is especially relevant with the Dawn/Dusk Legendary.

  • Blessing of Wisdom/Kings - Personally I really loved these. They helped other players, served as good utility, were easy to set up (1 click per hr), and seemed to be really appreciated by fellow group/raid members. I would love to see them continue into Shadowlands in some form.

  • Word of Glory - It may just be tuning atm, but with the Selfless Healer talent still buffing flash of Light, I rarely if ever want to use this.

Covenant Abilities

  • Divine Toll - For AoE, its amazing in Prot/Ret. For Single Target/solo it feels terrible for all 3. Every time you cast it on a single target boss fight, it is a reminder of how poorly this choice performs outside of its ideal niche. To Fix the single vs multi target issue, I would have it always “cast” 5 times, divided evenly over nearby targets (1 target hit 5 times, 2 targets hit 2 or 3, etc), with extra hits on targets being reduced for balancing and to retain niche priority. I think the Ret issue itself is that no matter how much it secretly buffs judgment damage (was a non-tooltip dmg buff at time of posting), it won’t change the fact that Judgment is not a dynamic part of Ret’s rotation.
    – One change I will discuss later is to possibly swap Lawbringer from a PvP Talent to a PvE talent. In addition to adding more “play” with Judgment on its own, it would also make the cast of Divine Toll more exciting.
    – Along the same lines, maybe add a Judgment conduit that increase the damage bonus towards finishers by X%, and the debuff lasts for an additional N attacks.

  • Ashen Hallow - I think this is arguably the least interesting Covenant Ability. Its visual is a huge menacing AoE, but it’s effect is a single target periodic effect. I think one step towards fixing this would be to make it feel like the area of effect actually matters, (If you pop this with Avenging Wrath for the 20% dmg, the Hammer of Wrath usage overlaps for a nonbo). Maybe have this ability tick faster, or deal more damage based on enemies dying/casting/attacking while in the area? Maybe the effect Ticks on an extra target/extra time per Holy Power spent?

  • Vanquisher’s Hammer - This is a pretty ok ability. I think the 1 HP Cost is a little awkward feeling, but it fits into a rotation easily enough. One issue I’ve found is that if Divine Purpose procs off the single target spender, it will be consumed immediately by the aoe spender. This got me thinking that it might just be better served as granting 1-2 charges of Divine Purpose, or double casting your next finisher, or just increasing the effect of the next 2 finishers used.

  • Blessing of Seasons (as of 8/3/20) - As it currently stands, this ability gives a single target buff, in a fixed sequence, on a fixed cooldown. I like the various effects this ability provides, but I personally find the gameplay of this ability so tedious it would single-handedly drive me away from Night Fae.
    – I wouldn’t want to worry about issues with having the correct buffs I want for specific fight timings, (some of them would feel completely useless at times)
    – Picturing what it would be like to re-apply The current Blessing of Wisdom once per minute, or once per 30sec, on a variety of allies is very concerning
    – I again cannot speak for others, but I find the rotational aspect of this the most jarring, and am direly hoping this is not the “best” Covenant for Ret. The buffs themselves seem good/valuable/interesting.
    –Maybe it should always buff you + 1 ally (targeted or auto smart-cast on priority, eg Spring to Healers)?

Ret Talents

  • 15 - No Issues

  • 25 - I think there might be room for innovation here. Blade of Wrath translates to more Holy Power for single target, Empyrean Power is a proc for AoE. Fires of Justice fills more gcd’s and gives a 15% chance for 1 extra HP. I think a possible improvement would be to replace Fires with a talent akin to Warrior/DH “devastator” talents. A talent that gives autos a chance to do a little bonus damage and grant a Holy Power. While this would initially have negative effects on our downtime in game play, we also have more mid-range cooldowns (30-45sec) to use up our gcds. This could help fix the ES/Sera/Inq issue of cd/hp management.

  • 30 - Repentance is easily broken, maybe make it instant cast to compare with things like Imprison/Paralysis

  • 35 - Eye for an Eye doesn’t really seem like a competitor here. This honestly feels like more of a PvP talent. Would recommend swapping it out for something like Lawbringer. Lawbringer could lend itself to building a class identity mechanic (Ret’s version of the popular Glimmer)

  • 40 - Main complaint here is that Holy Avenger not lining up with wings feels strange. Would either make it weaker to fit in at a 1min or 2min cd, or make it stronger somehow and put it on a 4min cd. 3min for Ret currently feels like the opposite of goldilocks.

  • 45 - It still always feels like Selfless Healer is the auto-pick here. Healing Hands also does nothing if Lay on Hands isn’t in arenas. I’m not sure whether the goal would be shorter CD Lay on Hands or just more Value out of hands, but talent as is feels replaceable. Maybe incorporate a way to make using Word of Glory more valuable?

  • 50 - Biggest Gripe with this row is that it “reads wrong”. If both Sanctified Wrath and Crusade last 25 seconds, neither of them are really “adding” to the duration. In reality, it pretty much means Inquisition lowers the duration by 5 seconds. I would say make the aoe damage from Sanctified Wrath baseline, and change Sanctified Wrath into something that lets us change our damage window. At the moment, Ret is like a weaker Fire Mage. (On live) Most of our damage feels like it comes from wings, over an elongated 30-40 second period of time. If we could have 1 talent that changed that to a quicker burst it would go a long way in diversifying Ret’s damage profile.

Ret Conduits

  • Ringing Clarity - Pretty much just a 30% increase to damage. Doesn’t solve the AoE vs Single target discrepancy. Doesn’t really do anything mechanically interesting.

  • Hallowed Discernment - 20% bonus “Execute” (lowest health) damage/healing. Certainly an interesting effect, giving the ability some “reliability” on targets. Does not solve or address the strangeness of the ability (aoe visual, single target effect)

  • Righteous Might - Hammer deals more and heals you. Pretty passable.

  • Prolonged Autumn - Autumn lasts 30% longer. Autumn is the good season for us, but unless it lasts into the next season, it just makes the seasonal rotation stranger. I worry as the trait scales, and we spend more time in Autumn, lining up specific seasons for specific fight timings will become more irritating.

  • Truth’s Wake - 10% more dmg as a dot. “Ok” I guess

  • Tempar’s Vindication - Chance on ability to deal small dmg. Even when this “maths” well, its still not interesting or dynamic.

  • Virtuous Command - Judgment gives a chance on ability to deal small dmg. Even when this “maths” well, its still not interesting or dynamic. Between this and Templars Vindication, I would just remake this as something else. None of the numbers from this will be notable in combat.

  • Light’s Reach - Increased Range + damage. Any combo of +utility and +damage feels like the golden standard. A+

  • Wrench Evil - I can’t imagine the narrow Undead situation that makes me want to use this over other utility options in a once per week respec system.

  • Stalwart as a Crusader - I would personally shift this to Concentration Aura and do the above changes to Crusader Aura (baseline bonus to other auras)

  • Light’s Barding - 50% longer horse. “Ok” as is. If it also made Divine Steed auto cast Freedom, it would be 10/10 perfect. Even if normal freedom went on CD, saving us a GCD would be huge.

  • Echoing Blessing - Bonuses after short blessings finish. Seems ok.

  • Shielding Words - Idea is nice, but will depend on Word of Glory being worth using.

  • Divine Call - Bubble reduced by 5 sec, conditionally, every 30sec. Maybe make this into a more niche pick? Reduce it by 3 sec with a cd every 10sec? Better benefit for frequent sustained damage? As is feels underwhelming (at least outside of Arena Holy).

  • Golden Path - Heal from consecrate dmg. Could we maybe get a slight bump to Consecrate radius with this? As is, it’s a little underwhelming.

TL:DR - Suggestions on lotsa stuff.

Edit: Also, anyone else dislike Night Fae ability’s Seasonal Rotation/MicroManagement? (Buffs themselves are fine though)

18 Likes

I believe most concerns of all paladins have been posted already, but I’d like to emphasize on something that I haven’t really seen anywhere outside of a notable mention.

With the removal of the Wisdom blessing, Retribution Paladins now have been thrown into the “can’t get a raid spot” in the mythic raiding scene, as they offer no real utility anymore that could be really valuable. Yes, we received Devotion Aura back, but so did Holy Paladins which are way more likely to take the “1 paladin required” spot, same goes for Blessing of Sacrifice, while it’s very nice to have, in the past it wasn’t enough for Ret Paladins to have them over X other melee class.

Since for example Enhancement Shamans received a party-wide windfury totem back as some cool form of added benefit of having that spec around, I really wonder why did we get gutted of our Wisdom Buff which frankly wasn’t that gamebreaking, but sometimes could prove extremely useful and nice to have (especially in PvP where Retribution barely sees any play compared to others).
We’re stuck in an even tighter spot competition since classes like dk-dh-monk-warrior are likely mandatory, it leaves little room for us Paladins. (and warrior’s shout/dk’s utility don’t work like paladins, there is still value in having more death knights while there isn’t in having more paladins).

Could you please revisit this idea or maybe introduce something different/minor so that we’re not the spec that everybody always make fun of all the time, systems that existed in the past come to mind such as sanctity aura buffing the whole raid’s damage by a very small amount, judgement increasing the critical strike chance on the target or maybe refunding some small amount of mana back to the healers (0.5%?) whenever you use judgement.
Another quick idea would be to implement as a passive the Retribution’s PvP talent Luminescence, which would spread a small amount of healing whenever you would receive healing.
A whole different topic, that would definitely be very strong, but since Shadowlands is back to class and not spec identity, why not allow Retribution Paladins to also have Aura Mastery? It’s not like our auras are inferior to Holy’s and would help tremendously.

Basically anything that would make the Retribution spec have something that would be nice to have for others. As an advertised class/spec “party helper”, we offer little to no help at all these days (and the current retribution aura shows that we’re in fact, even worse than others as we count on people dying to buff ourselves, it really goes against the idea of being a team player Paladin)

28 Likes

I would like to echo what seems like everyone here and even on Discord have said. Retribution Aura is “NOT" good. I’d like it to be a nice buff for my party members to enjoy, making Retribution a much needed class to bring along in groups. (maybe a group wide dmg/healing buff and gets stronger under the Pally’s wings. Or even has a effect under wings like a group wide stun when wings is pressed.)

Below are a few the collected feedback of many of the testers. And just above me, Fintusius has a good post about Ret needing much much more group utility. Let start with a Ret aura redo.

Retribution Aura Why should we be rewarded for people dying in our groups. I mean if people are dying we are wiping or I’m about to lose my arena match. It makes us look good on paper in raid progression. After that it become useless.

To speak a little bit about retribution aura, it feels bad.

Retribution passive aura on BFA is +damage/defensive when an ally dies stacks with wings.
Retribution aura on alpha is wings for 12 seconds, no defensive bonus obviously can’t stack with itself.

Retribution is out and Retribution Aura is in. It now provides wings for 8seconds(12 at lvl 56) when an ally within 40 yds dies. I am still firmly against having a DPS increase from an ally dying. We should be more inclined to want everyone alive rather be glad someone has died and you get a free DPS boost. With Shadowlands looking to provide players with more agency Retribution Aura seems like a stick in the mud. If I had to say something nice, gaining Avenging Wrath instead of a damage increase is much preferable.

Agreed, A paladin never wants one of his team mates to die and to buff you for this feels bad.

As for a comparison Retribution in DND imbues Words of Power into your weapon, which I think could work with the Holy Power system well. I thought of a few different reworks below.

  1. Retribution Aura - Grants you extra Holy Power by the amount of incoming damage done to your allies within 40yds. (This could have an ICD to not make it OP and limit the amount of HP generated)
  2. Retribution Aura - Increase Damage done by 1-5% depending on how much HP you are holding
  3. Retribution Aura - When your allies within 40 yards take damage it reduces the cool-down of Avenging Wrath by 1 second (again this could have an ICD to limit the amount of seconds removed from AW over a set amount of time)

Auras being back doesn’t really add anything to the class they didn’t need to come back, just set it and forget about it. Hopefully retribution aura gets completely changed I can’t see ever using it as it is unless there are 3 pallys in the group, would like to see it go to something that is usefully even if you are alone.

Retribution Aura : Makes no sense to have this as a Holy Paladin because why allow party/raid members die one by one in order to keep Avenging Wrath active for as long as people are dying - selfish aura and should be changed/exchanged for another aura that fits Holy Paladin.

Also, still no word on changing Retribution Aura. Wings proc on ally death is just bad and will ultimately lead to degenerate gameplay. See about every post above mine mentioning this.

I think the player base’s stance on Retribution Aura is pretty clear, but I’ll add my voice to it being terrible.

Redo Retribution Aura to give wings after using a certain ability each spec Paladin has to offer (Only wings can be granted every 45 seconds). But before that, make Retribution Aura baseline for every Paladin spec, make a new Aura for the bar because this goes baseline.

Retribution Aura - Sorry to start off on a bad foot, but this ability is a miss. Auras are supposed to be a representation of a Paladin sharing benefits with raid/party members. By having this compete for an Aura slot, any player that picks it is depriving their party of another Aura effect. If you want ideal value out of it, i.e. when the raid is dying at the end of an encounter, you’re choosing to take away 3% less taken from your allies, for your own personal benefit. I can understand the need for Auras, but put this back to a generic passive. This also has absolutely 0 value when alone.

Lastly, as many have echoed before, please change Retribution Aura.

18 Likes

I don’t think any of this will be new, but I might as well add my opinion. Holy paladin just feels bad to play. I feel like it will probably end up working on numbers, but it’s just boring and doesn’t feel satisfying.

The infusion change is bad. I understand WHY it was made - it differentiates the usage of holy light vs flash of light - but I think the update could have made holy light free perhaps instead, to make it the go to for efficiency vs flash for throughput. Sitting there hard casting a spell for over 2s only to be forced to cancel it from forced movement makes the class play sluggishly.

There’s core issues with the way the class plays though. Holy power generation for crusader strike and holy shock works alright, but holy power feels artificially scarce, and on top of that, the actual spells (word of glory and light of dawn) are super boring and not particularly impactful. Having the casts generate holy power when cast on your beacon is off to me. I imagine it will come down to tuning, but while my guess is it’s supposed to balance the loss of throughput from tunneling tanks, it’s an awkward line to walk imo and straying in either direction either makes it degenerate to gameplay in one way or another.

Nothing interacts with other parts of the class do there’s little thought to how you’re playing, and the legendaries reflect this. Shock barrier looks to be the go to on numbers, but it’s just a passive heal tied to holy shocking allies… I.e. its just glimmer as a shield. Light of dawn is so weak I have to kill the muscle memory of casting it, and again, neither spender feels strong enough to bother thinking too much about. As a result, though, the light of dawn legendary doesn’t seem worth consideration either. Double infusions being strong would be even worse, since as noted, infusions ALSO feel bad currently.

I wish you’d been willing to double down on glimmer. It would have been an easy way to build interactions with skills invoking or applying glimmers. I don’t really know the right way to fix the class at this point. During wings the actual numbers are fine, it just plays like molasses. Outside of wings the class feels disjointed, with a cut and dry slow classic heal playstyle (i.e. holy priest turreting) interspersed with the occasional melee.

I guess my thoughts would be to make holy power more interesting if it’s going to be rare, or make it plentiful and build weaving holy power as a core aspect of the class rotation (both for healing and damage). It feels like you could afford to shift costs somewhat for different effects. For example, light of dawn just doesn’t feel worth casting and since both that and word of glory do the exact same thing (instant cast free heal of similar amounts) it doesn’t feel like a real choice is being made. I think having your spenders generally serve explicitly different purposes would make it more interesting. Perhaps having light of dawn act as a very short mini beacon of virtue on targets affected by the cone instead would make it more interesting. Then you could use light of dawn to created mirrored healing off your other heals right before a mechanic hit, then holy shock into word of glory reactively as the damage goes out in order to gain benefits from it. Its not particularly complicated, but would reward preparing holy power for timed events and generally create a different purpose for the ability.

3 Likes

Holy power being artificially scarce is something I noticed for Holy as well. I still think letting judgement be a baseline generator for all 3 specs would be good for the class.

12 Likes

I agree w/ Zvn and many others. I’ve also pushed for Judgement to be a baseline HP generator. Even Prot, which I feel is by far the best playing and feeling Spec atm suffers with Holy Power when facing a single target.

10 Likes

Just want to give my two cents on holy paladin currently with the return of holy power, I think having the option to talent into things such as Eternal Flame from WOD as a optional replacement for word of glory would be a good change for players to be able to pick between a big 3 holy power instant heal or a heal over time instead, I would also love to see selfless healer make a return for holy paladin also, most times you find yourself using holy shock way more than any other spell holy has, at the moment I feel like flash of light is only ever pressed often in a mythic + environment adding in the option for selfless healer to give people a reason to actually press flash of light outside of mythic + environments could be a good change.

5 Likes

As an addition to all the infusion of light posts mentioned before, there’s one specific interaction that nobody mentioned.
In PvP, Holy Paladin’s rely on the Light’s Grace PvP talent to have their casted Holy Light actually heal for something. As of right now due to the removed increased casting speed of holy light on infusion of light, this talent went from being mandatory to almost dead, as realistically casting 2.5s heals in PvP content is going to be really hard and unreliable, making Holy Paladins at the moment pretty terrible in PvP, as they are going to struggle with anything related to HPS compared to other healers.

Please do not take 8.3 Holy Paladins as a benchmark for their PvP performance as the sole reason they got so strong is due to the ineffable truth corruption, which is being removed.

7 Likes