FEEDBACK: Paladin Class Changes

Hey Mbdtf, I actually think shield of vengeance is a stronger defensive than divine protection. It absorbs 30% of our hp, in order for 20%-DR-divine protection to reduce that much damage taken we would have to lose 150% of our health bar.

Shield of vengance is proactive and provide offensive utility. I think its actually one of the better designed ret abilities.

The issue is divine protection is a 1 minute CD usable in stuns and we have to pre-use Shield of Vengeance before a stun AND talent into shield of vengeance in order for it to come down off 2 minutes. I think it just needs a lower cooldown.

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Shield of Vengeance is worse than Divine Protection in everyway.

-Longer CD
-On GCD
-Damage capped

12 Likes

This is a worse solution since it would create a weird feedback loop between physical damage reduction and healing.

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divine protection is better than sov in every single way especially in regards to the cd, odds are in raid and m+ encounter you’re gonna want something that is up more frequently even if its “less effective” (which its pretty much not). I think maybe the only other class in the game that has an absolutely egregious defensive for pve purposes is arms warrior with die by the sword.

direct offensive ability built into a defensive ability is not good design, defensives should enable players to play greedy through the design of said cd, when direct damage comes into play eventually it could evolve into weird situations eventually like it did with monks and karma.

I think if there’s a middle ground to be found I’d enjoy SoV getting a reduced cd baseline, not as a talent option which allows sov to be used more frequently, and I’d rather lose the damage portion if it means it can be off gcd and used more often. take away the damage I could care less

8 Likes

I actually mentioned the differences in CD. Besides that you’re not entirely correct. There are situations where an absorb plays out better than a DR. For example, if you are already low and you press Divine Protection you will get significantly less value than pressing SoV low.

You need to consider the totality of the abilities, the context in which they could be used and the inherent differences between them. Of course there are situations where DP is better and there are also situations where SoV is better. If the cooldowns were both 1 minute, I’d consider shield of vengeance a much stronger defensive, regardless of GCD.

You’re absolutely correct about how SoV could be better in a pinch as something to come in a clutch, although I still don’t see it justifying such a long cd and the fact that in order to make it a shorter cd we give up mobility options.

I think the big part here that I’d want to amend/emphasize is that I’m totally open to keep SoV around, but not in it’s current state, in current state I feel like the CD is far too long for what it offers, either make it worth a two minute cd, or make it a 1 minute cd that’s actually on par to what other classes have to offer.

sort of tangenting but I’d probably suggest making hoj a base 30 second, getting rid of our CC row in 30 to make way and create a mobility row in level 30, defensive row in 35 and a healing row in 40. Although I’m not sure how pvp people would like as asside from some high keys + mythic nzoth I haven’t found myself swapping off hoj cdr as ret and would much rather have more dedicated rows for stuff I feel is more important for the parts of the spec where I feel is lacking.

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Hello, just wanted to share a few concerns/possible solutions I have with Holy Paladin on beta right now. Some of this will be about tuning but that’s part of a larger issue. This information comes from raid testing, m+ dungeon testing, questing, etc. This will be a pretty long post.

1. Infusion of Light.
This was changed from Holy light getting reduced cast time and Flash of light getting increased healing to Holy light gets increased healing and Flash of Light gets a reduced cast time. This change is bad for a few reasons. It makes Infusion feel close to useless when using it on FoL, which is already a fast ability. On top of that, Flash of light heals for very little right now so having it be a slightly faster cast doesn’t help it much at all. For Holy light, its currently very weak outside of Infusion and as a 2.5 second base cast, we’ll almost never use it because of that. There’s nothing interesting there. I think Holy Light being a slow but very strong cast is actually fine, but Holy Light needs a base buff if thats going to be the case so its not only somewhat strong when Infusion procs, it needs to be a big heal baseline or we won’t even think about it. Currently, as you can see from raid testing (its still early but issues need to be pointed out) we almost never cast FoL/HL even with infusion. The reasons for that are what I just listed above.

Possible Solutions:

  1. Buff Holy light baseline. Make Infusion buff Holy Lights healing and make Flash of Light instant cast. This will give us the choice between a slow inexpensive but very strong heal or a weaker expensive instant heal. Healing is situational and making choices like this is important, there’s already a few scenarios i can think of where this choice might add a little complexity if tuned properly. It’ll be hard to fully balance IoL especially for the future when more stats/gear may change things but i think this is a good step forward. 2. Make Holy light/Flash of Light generate holy power. This would allow these spells to be among our priority spells rather than an afterthought. 3. Alternatively, reverting IoL to what it was before is another option, I’d rather see something interesting done with it though.

2. If we have to leave melee at all, we’re extremely punished.
From Legion to BfA to SL, we’ve seen our melee healer role get further involved regarding the melee aspect. As of right now in BfA, its punishing to not be in melee, however we aren’t useless if we have to run out for something. Currently in SL, if we have to run out we can’t generate holy power aside from sitting there waiting for HS to come back up (8 second CD) which makes us unable to use a majority of our healing. Healing our beacon repeatedly with FoL/HL while were out of melee is a bad option and will hurt mana on long boss encounters. Being reliant on holy power generation is fine, being in melee is also fine but we need a good way to be able to generate from ranged if/when we have to move out of melee.

Possible Solutions: 1. As said earlier, make Infusion of Light also generate 1-2 holy power from Holy Light and Flash of Light. This will allow us to continue to use our holy power spenders even if we have to move out of melee. People have suggested this from the paladin discord a lot and I believe this change would make it a bit less punishing being forced out of melee. 2. Make Judgement generate 1 holy power. This is an obvious one and I’m not sure why judge doesn’t already do this, but it would essentially give us a small ranged hopo generator.

3. The Level 25 row.
Saved by the Light, Judgement of Light, Holy Prism. Those are the 3 talents on the level 25 row. Currently, they are all extremely weak in almost every circumstance. This is a tuning issue I’m aware, but holy prism has been put on the back burner for a long time (even back in legion beta when it was supposedly getting tuned but never really did). I’d like to see this row get some attention. I think tuning would pretty much take care of these issues.

General stuff I would like to see changed or added to the spec:

1. Add back Daybreak. This was a baseline passive that added good interaction between holy shock and holy radiance. ‘Everytime you casted Holy Radiance, your next holy shock would heal other allies near the target’. You can replace Holy Radiance with Light of Dawn/Word of Glory and this would bring interesting synergy between Holy Shock and our Holy Power spenders which we’re lacking at the moment.

2. Divine Purpose made baseline. I’m still undecided if this is something I’d really want, but it would add even more synergy between LoD/WoG/Holy Shock which are 3 main/important spells that currently lack any depth/synergy. This would allow you to proc LoD or WoG for free which would then activate Daybreak once you holy shock after using your free proc. This has the potential for really fun synergy, especially if you get 2 procs back to back. An example of how this might play out: HS>DP proc spent on WoG>HS buffed by daybreak>DP proc spent on LoD>HS buffed by daybreak>etc. This would make for a lot of interesting choice and fun interaction between abilities in my opinion.

3. LoD needs tuning. I just want to point this out so its hopefully known. LoD is extremely weak right now and the only holy power spender were using is WoG. WoG is in a good place, it’s a strong single target spender, but LoD needs a bit of love to be able to compete as an aoe spender. I know tuning isn’t done yet, just wanted to mention this as it is a big issue.

14 Likes

Ideally, blizzard would just let judgement do everything. They could potentially nerf the damage a small amount. It seems like they want avengers shield to be our highest priority atm and they could add a damage modifier to the first target hit if that is their intent. Or simply redistribute the damage through out our tool kit.

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Just a slight idea and or suggestion for Paladins in general as I also posted this in the regular Paladin discussion forums:

Redo Retribution Aura to give wings after using a certain ability each spec Paladin has to offer (Only wings can be granted every 45 seconds). But before that, make Retribution Aura baseline for every Paladin spec, make a new Aura for the bar because this goes baseline.

4 Likes

This would make for some interesting options. Maybe tie the wings proc to defensive playmaking like using our baseline blessings on someone else, even if it only works when certain conditions are met like preventing or removing a debuff. Or possibly tying the Ret version proc duration to the percentage of damage absorbed by shield of vengeance rather than the shield exploding.

I think auras could be fleshed out a little bit more, devo is great and more than likely going to be a reason for a holy paladin to be a mandatory part of a healing comp, but retribution aura feels sort of like a selfish aura to pick in something like keys knowing you can be in devo and preventing damage. The other aura from my eyes seems like my game plan for dealing with priests/warlocks going into shadowlands in arenas when paired up with a specific conduit, but it existing alone I don’t see any reason to use it in almost any scenario unless niche circumstance. Crusader aura is actually cool as it noticeably saves times on run backs in keys after a wipe, and I think for the sole purpose of travel I don’t mind having it around.

I’m guessing there is probably some balance game being played here where they don’t want to make too many useful aura’s otherwise you’d have a sea of pink in raids, and I guess this concept is also applicable if you gave devo to both ret and holy

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Some initial feedback after playing about 8 keys on Holy Paladin (this is mostly centered around dungeon play, haven’t tried raid testing or PvP yet):

Good stuff:

  1. HoPo adds interest and complexity to Holy Paladin. I know many aren’t looking forward to this, but I’m happy to see some more depth come to the class. The current retail build is fast-paced and powerful, but there’s very little opportunity to show mastery of the spec over a novice, beyond not casting Crusader Strike when it wouldn’t actually benefit Holy Shock. Having another layer to gameplay - and one that can also be converted into damage with SotR - is fun, in my opinion. I’m sure some others will disagree, but I find it a good change.
  2. Divine Toll is amazing, maybe too much so for dungeons. The combination of Divine Toll, Glimmer of Light, and the Shock Barrier legendary is a very powerful 1m CD in dungeons. It’s fantastic and a lot of fun, but might be too powerful right now for just 1m. Granted, this is literally where it is at its zenith in power (so it will fall off in other situations), but it’s something to keep an eye on. But DT overall is a fantastic covenant ability, and frankly I’m just not really interested in looking at the other ones, they seem to bland in comparison.
  3. Thank you for giving us HoW baseline. This is a great tool, both for adding damage (something we all like), but also for this interesting interaction where our healing ability increases late in a fight, due to extra HoPo generation. I think that’s a cool niche to have. It’s not a huge gain, but it’s present and a way for expert Holy Paladins to shine.

Bad stuff:

  1. Auras are useless. It feels like someone said “Hey, let’s add Auras back to Paladins! Those were awesome, right?” but didn’t think about how the game has changed since Auras were around. There are effectively 2 Auras - Devo and Conc - and then 2 Auras that were stolen from existing passives and made incredibly clunky tack-ons just to fill out the bar. I’m all for Auras coming back, if it makes sense, but as it is right now it’s very unfun to have to devote GCDs to swap between these effects. Ret Aura in particular seems almost Machiavellian, the idea that you would take a GCD while your party is dying to instead swap into an Aura to benefit from a death, rather than take that GCD to try to heal.
    Proposal: Revert Ret and Crusader Auras to passives and instead look into other effects to add in as Auras (such as the old Ret Aura, adding a new spell damage resist Aura and setting Devo back to Armor, or something else), or just scrap Auras all-together.
  2. Holy Light and Flash of Light feel weak and uninteresting. Unlike Holy Shock and its tight interplay with Holy Power, HL and FoL feel very bland and weak. The change to IoL means that Flash of Light now heals for a very small amount in all situations (while costing a ton of mana), and leaves you with an odd partial GCD if you cast it during IoL. IoL effectively does nothing for FoL. HL gets more of a benefit, but it’s a colossally slow spell in all circumstances now, and it’s rare you have that long to stand still and cast without a penalty, and also that you have that long to wait before you would be delaying another cast which could generate HoPo for you. It’s not a good situation when your main heals feel like a fall-back or also-ran option over what you want to be pressing.
    Proposal: Change IoL, either by having it make FoL/HL grant a HoPo when cast with the IoL effect, or allow IoL to stack so that the effect can be improved (such as 2 stacks making FoL instant, or making HL a huge bomb of a heal).
  3. LoD is in a sad state. It’s almost always the wrong decision to cast this ability right now, even when you can actually hit 5 damaged allies with it. For dungeon healing especially, having it even on your bar is a trap for newer Holy Paladins, and if I were writing a guide for SL M+ I would advise new Paladins to not bind it at all. LoD needs a buff, or honestly a general rework would be better at this point - LoD hasn’t been a fun ability since its rework into its current form for Legion.
    Proposal: Go back to something more like Holy Radiance for the AoE HoPo consumer. To add some variety (and get away from everything consuming 3 HoPo), perhaps this could consume all available HoPo for an increased effect and radius. If possible, a spell where you literally keep holding the button down to keep consuming HoPo beyond the initial 3 cost (not just a channel that you have to break with movement or escape) could give the player more options here.

Other suggestions:

  1. Make Beacon of Faith only reduce the healing transferred if you have both Beacons active. This would allow for more flexibility with the talent, only having 1 Beacon up when only one is needed. The main issue with this is that it’s clumsy to try to un-cast an existing Beacon, so this would have to be improved (such as casting Beacon of Faith on a Beacon of Light target overwriting the BoL with BoF, and vice versa).
  2. Consider the large ramifications to PvP with the IoL change. PvP Holy Paladin revolves around massively buffed, quick cast Holy Lights, and that’s completely gone now. I’m not a big PvP’er so I’ll let others more capable weigh in, but it seems like the cornerstone of that playstyle is completely upended now. General improvements to IoL like mentioned above might help, but better PvP talents that don’t center as much throughput onto Holy Light might be good as well.
  3. Make Awakening trigger off of SotR, too. I doubt anyone will take this talent anyway, but a slight improvement for dungeons would be to have it trigger on all HoPo spenders. That at least helps shore up its DPS capabilities - though again, I don’t see it competing with SW. Though I am curious about a DP/Awakening build with high Haste levels.
  4. Change the bonus effect on activating Avenging Wrath. Under AW, Holy Shock already has a base 60% crit chance, and even with our pitiful secondary stat levels right now my Holy Shock crit chance is 77%. Can we change this effect to something like Chaos Bolt, where the first Holy Shock’s effect is increased by your crit chance? Or make it both auto-crit and also get a 50% bonus to its crit effect, like the passive for Ele Shamans?
11 Likes

We just had Potency Conduits revealed, will be testing tonight but most of them seem straightforward, so here is some immediate feedback for Ret:

Ret Spec Conduits

I know #'s for balance are subject to change, but some of them seem very uninspired.

  • [Templar’s Vindication] Templar’s Verdict has a 15% chance to strike again for 15% of its damage.

  • [Virtuous Command] Judgment grants you Seal of Command for 4 sec, granting your Templar’s Verdict, Crusader Strike, Blade of Justice, and weapon attack a 10% chance of dealing 10% additional Holy damage.

These seem like the major conduits for Ret, and both of them amount to “Small chance for Small amount of damage”. Neither of these seem interesting or exciting. If we had abilities that cared about multiple small hits of holy damage as part of the core kit it could be more interesting (like old Judgment of the Crusader flat holy dmg bonus).

Covenant Ability Conduits

All of these seem to build further into problems with the Covenant abilities rather than solve them.

  • [Prolonged Autumn]Blessing of Autumn lasts 30% longer.

Autumn is certainly the season we care about, but this doesn’t address the problems with season cycle itself. Ideally we would plan to have Summer/Autumn most of the time, Winter only really in pvp, and Spring for a utility healer CD. If ideally we want to time our seasons to match fight events, and Prolonged Autumn just makes that timing more irregular. If this type of conduit made the effect last into the next seasons, it would be more beneficial. Personally I don’t like either the season cycle or the 30sec buff micromanagement, but that’s feedback for a different post.

  • [Righteous Might] Vanquisher’s Hammer deals 100% more damage and heals you for the damage done.

Relatively safe value for the ability. Nothing negative to say, but nothing positive either.

  • [Ringing Clarity] Divine Toll has a 30% chance to cast twice on any given target.

The current issues with Divine Toll are from 2 factors.

  1. There is a huge issue of Feast or Famine on this Ability. It feels powerful on multi targets, and not worth pushing on single targets.

  2. Judgment itself isn’t as exciting as Avenger’s Shield or Holy Shock, and therefor the ability isn’t particularly exciting.

In situations where we have a full 5 targets, an extra holy power from the cast is completely wasted and the effects of judgment don’t benefit from multiple hits. On small groups it barely becomes better than normal Judgment uses.

  • [Hallowed Discernment] Ashen Hallow strikes the lowest health ally and enemy within it for 20% of its effect.

Visually you have a large vibrant aoe on a large cooldown. Mechanically you have a cast time followed by a small single target trickle of damage. Adding execute damage to it is nice, but even then, the lowest health enemy/ally may not be the one you want to hit/heal.

Overall: Ret still faces many problems both mechanically and with balance. The Ret specific traits don’t have an impact on gameplay at all. If part of the plan for Conduit design is to balance out the Covenant abilities, it feels like we are moving in any direction but better.

Edit: Updating with some from Beta that were not on WoWhead. (Also number differences between wowhead - beta)

  • Truth’s Wake - 10% more dmg from Wake.

Not really interesting or exciting, but I guess damage is ok.

  • Light’s Reach - Blade of Justice +20yd range, +20% dmg

I think this is the baseline for what Conduits should probably go for. Scaling spec related power with some added dps bonus. Solid Conduit.

16 Likes

Just to throw this out there. With all the Protection Conduits, and some Protection Legendaries, they’ll be able to pull bigger numbers compared to Ret given what they currently have now. Even with number tuning come launch, without a doubt will be seeing Protection pull some big numbers.

Also with the current build, if you are Kyrian as Ret, and recently put in the Conduit that grants you “Seal of Command,” Divine Toll doesn’t proc Seal of Command at all. I also know number tuning is still to happen, I could probably have a level 1 do more damage compared to Seal of Command. Would seem like a waste to bring this back and to make it pretty useless.

11 Likes

I would like to see Lay on Hands usable in arenas again. It’s not nearly as strong as everyone thinks it is. The cooldown makes it so you can only use it once and ret is sorely in need of an additional defensive option. Eye for an Eye is far too niche a pick given the talents it competes with and since divine protection looks like its off the menu again, this is an easy fix. Either that or give back blessing of Kings and make the shield worthwhile. Additionally, crusader strike is so weak its almost not worth pushing, it does less damage then an auto attack. I’d like to see the damage on it buffed to at least deal comparable damage.

Since I mentioned Blessing of Kings above and in a previous post I am once again asking you to give back Blessing of Kings and Blessing of Wisdom and/or Blessing of Might. In the “unpruning patch” it’s inconceivable that such iconic abilities would be removed. It’s not unpruning if you take away something with a legacy as long as WoW is old from the class that made buffing so important.

I’d like to see Blade of Justice or Crusader Strike have a Holy damage component added to them. Crusader Strike does such little damage it would be absolutely justified. Templar’s Verdict is our main damage source but by such a large margin that the rest of our buttons have hardly any merit.

I don’t want to criticize too much, but I’d say way too much time has been spent on reworking Blessing of Seasons and not enough time spent on the meat and bones of the class. As far as I remember Inquistion + Seraphim is still listed as an “open problem” since the Alpha phase.

Lastly, as many have echoed before, please change Retribution Aura.

22 Likes

Yeah i agree, i was actually hoping we were gonna get our blessings back but it seems like it is. :confused:

1 Like

Covenants are still so underwhelming with this build, seasons (specifically autumn) I guess gets stronger since it’s the only conduit that is seemingly worth anything at first glance. and as mentioned before this covenant seems like the go to for pve based content atleast with raiding, and it’s ties with an existing legendary sort of makes it alot stronger.

Atleast speaking for ret the divine toll one is extremely lame, while it’s extremely worthwhile to get any extra procs of holy shock or shields for prot paladin overwriting an existing judgment (and extra holy power?) seems underwhelming, the other specs even gaining something significant on multi target from this, ret sort of loses out on at a certain point asside from raw damage from the ability as we cap at 5 holy power and divine storm has a 5 target cap.

Two of the retribution specific conduits are also pretty rng, I’m not sure what exactly to say specifically but I’d like to see all of the conduit options offering consistent dps like the BoJ/Wake ones.

Not sure if Ashen Hallow can be saved without significant mechanical changes, ability will still feel horrible to use even with the conduit.

Also Vanquisher’s Hammer conduit should maybe also include reducing the holy power cost to 0, ability still feels really bad to use due to the fact that in my head i feel like i should throw my hammer then do a finisher, but in some scenarios 3 holy power might be all you have to work with so you go down to 2, generate again then cast a finisher. I feel like the covenant ability should feel easy to use in any scenario.

16 Likes

After doing some raid testing with Holy, I like the overall play-style of building holy power and using it on mostly Word of Glory, and with more haste it should be a lot of fun playing it in raid. Holy Light and Flash of Light are pretty bad to use. I think it would be nice if you’d get a holy power if you used it on anyone instead of just your Beacon target to make you want to press it once and a while. Right now I’m just using Holy Shock and Crusader Strike/Hammer of Wrath while using the holy power on Word of Glory. Glimmer and the Shock Barrier legendary feel like they fit well with the play-style. Divine Toll and the new Holy Avenger are a lot of fun. I wish Holy Avenger was off the GCD and the cooldown was reduced to two minutes. It makes the class a lot faster and more fun while its up. I think being able to press it more often would make the class a lot more engaging. After everything I’ve tested so far Hpal feels like its gonna be a lot of fun in the next expac and a few changes could make it great.

5 Likes

My raid testing experience today was fun i really like the light of the martyr conduit because it allows me to use a filler since flash of light doesn’t really heal and mana inefficient. Holy power is really fun to use i just wish judgement added holy power especially if you’re not in range of a boss- light of dawn feels really bad to use, the healing doesn’t do much so i would use holy power on word of glory even if the raid needed AOE healing. Being a kyrian pally helps a lot with glimmer because of divine toll but feels hard to upkeep 8 glimmers up like you can on live; someone suggested allowing word of glory to apply glimmer which would be really neat. I really would like to play night fae but being night fae you dont have access to divine toll so having 8 glimmers on people, especially in raid is quite difficult and seems like you would just use double beacon. Holy avenger being 3 minutes feels really bad and hopefully can be reverted back to 2 minutes. TLDR holy light is too slow and when i tried to use it today in raid the target i was attempting to heal with it was already healed before i could get the cast off and when i used flash of light i would just use light of the martyr instead cause it does a lot of healing at full stacks so what was the point of using holy light or flash of light when one is slow and one doesn’t do much healing. :frowning:

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also quick thing i thought of- crusader strike costing 2,400 i think is kinda absurd i get that it has mana now because it gives you holy power but i feel like it should be lowered a bit X_X

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