FEEDBACK: Paladin Class Changes

UPDATED April 9

In this thread, we’re discussing Paladin class changes coming in World of Warcraft: Shadowlands.

Read more about initial class changes in the World of Warcraft blog.

This initial post will be updated periodically throughout the Shadowlands test. Please check back here for information about further updates to this class as they are made.

Thank you for your testing and feedback!

9 Likes

I want to give some feedback on Retribution Paladin. I was testing Word of glory in duels. Right now it’s terrible to press, 3 holy power to heal myself for 1k hp when I have 10k is not worth. Wog need a tune up.

Hammer Of Wrath First of all I really like the fact that we have it baseline but I don’t see why it’s still locked behind a 20% requirement to use it, or having Avenging Wrath up. For an execute spell it does not hit hard at all. Here are my suggestions.

1- Tune up the damage to be a real execute 2- Get rid of the 20% so we can use it in our standard rotation.

Wake of Ashes 45 sec cd generating 3 holy power, used to be good to press. This is a huge nerf. Does not help with the dead zone. - Make it on a 30 sec cd - Reverse the nerf.

Talking about rotations As in BFA we are suffering from dead zone during our rotation. Forcing us to spec into talents to reduce those down times. Leaving other talents as dead here is an example.

On Level 40 we have Divine Purpose, Holy Avenger, Seraphim. Holy Avenger - Being a 3 minutes cool down it does not line up with Avenging wrath and will most likely be skipped. Seraphim - 3 holy power to gain secondary stats for 15 sec on a 45 sec cd.

The clear choice will be Divine purpose to smooth out the game play.

Level 45 row, Selfless healer, Justicars Vengeance, Healing hands Justicars Vengeance is just a bad spell that cost way too much holy power for what it does and will never be picked.

Healing hands, another talent that will not be taking. First you can’t use lay on hand in arena making it useless. Even in pve it’s not that great reducing the cd by 50% if used on a target below 30% hp.

How many times will we cast Lay on hand during a boss fight? Not enough to make it useful. I’ll rather toss some free flash of light during an entire boss encounter or a m+ run.

MOBILITY the elephant in the room Divine Steed is not good, 45 sec cd for a 3 sec speed buff. For pvp this is the worst designed spell. I need two GCD to finally be able to move.

I need to cast freedom on myself and then use divine steed because we can be snare while using it. I can’t stress it enough, this is terrible in pvp and worst in ARENA.

Same thing for pve in heavy movement fights when you need to get out and get in fast you can only do so every 45 sec. Even with Cavalier talent it’s not enough.

  • Get rid of Divine Steed and bring back Long Arm of The Law and Bring back Pursuit of justice. Does were really good talents. I’m sure I’m not the only Ret player missing does one!

Retribution Aura Why should we be rewarded for people dying in our groups. I mean if people are dying we are wiping or I’m about to lose my arena match. It makes us look good on paper in raid progression. After that it become useless.

  • Make it tick for damage every time people are getting hit ( like thorns )
118 Likes

To speak a little bit about retribution aura, it feels bad to put the character in a situation where say they have to make the choice between saving LilBobby in the raid who’s at 10% health and about to die. Do I lay on hands him and save him or do let him die to buff myself? That seems a bit counter-intuitive to the theme of the class. It’s also a selfish aura so why is it even an aura. It’s doing nothing for anyone else. If it still must retain this retaliatory, on death style aura gameplay, at least make it give everyone affected by the aura a +X% damage/healing increase for X seconds when someone in the aura dies, so that it’s actually an aura and not just the passive restribution ability nerfed and relabeled as an aura.

98 Likes

I love the fact that we have Blessing of Sacrifice baseline

But why did we lose Blessing of king and Wisdom. It’s not like Plate make you more tanky. I feel alot more squishy without it. I think we need a short defensive cooldown in compensation. It’s not like Blessing of protection can’t be purged or Divine shield can’t be mass dispel.

58 Likes

It can also be shattering thrown now and shield of vengeance will cause you take more damage from shattering throw. Ret feels like two steps back one step forward.

Retribution passive aura on BFA is +damage/defensive when an ally dies stacks with wings.
Retribution aura on alpha is wings for 12 seconds, no defensive bonus obviously can’t stack with itself.

Word of Glory is now a single target heal, sure it doesn’t have the cooldown it does on live, but it also isn’t worth casting on alpha atm.

Blessing of Wisdom/Kings was taken away in place blessing of sac is back. Healing hands is a new talent but it’s rather bad, a 50% CD reduction to LoHs for saving someone below 30% health or you could not take that talent, let the person die and get wings from retribution aura. Blessing of Kings was consistant damage reduction, whereas sac is damage transfer with slight reduction (25% of 25% damage is removed, the rest is just shuffled around).

Edit: It also seems odd that there’s 2 different talents that affect the cooldown of lay on hands, maybe just lower the baseline cooldown a smidge if you feel there’s room for two talents to modify this 1 ability’s cooldown.

50 Likes

To follow on this topic, I’m losing 3 holy power for a single target heal. I can spec selfless healer and cast instant flash of light that will heal more than Word of Glory. Right now on live Word of Glory is one of the good reasons to bring a retribution paladin in m+. It will not in Shadowland

65 Likes

Posting this for Skeletor, moderator in the Hammer of Wrath discord and writer of the guide most commonly used by Rets. While all these thoughts are his, I agree with a lot of what is written. This feedback is PvE focused.

T15 Talents
T15 row remains unchanged at this time. I think it is potentially worth revisiting this row at the very least for Righteous Verdict and Execution Sentence.

With one of Blizzard’s primary focuses shifting from AoE damage to cleave damage I suspect we might be in cleave encounters more often than not. The higher the duration of Cleave the less value we get from Righteous Verdict due to not using Templar’s Verdict.

Execution Sentence does not suffer as much in these scenarios but there is a new wrench thrown in. Seraphim has returned as a Talent option in the T40 row. Execution Sentence costs 3 Holy Power every 30 seconds, Seraphim costs 3HP every 45 seconds, and Inquisition costs ~3HP about every ~45 seconds depending on the pandemic window and amount of HP spent. If someone was to want to play this combination or this combination turns out to be the best performing, it creates a very sluggish cast sequence. We are limited in how much HP we can generate in a given period.

Depending on how many generators we have off of cooldown and if Hammer of Wrath is usable or not we could potentially generate up to 9HP. 3HP would be used to cast Inquisition, another 3HP would be used to cast Seraphim, and finally another 3HP to cast Execution Sentence. This would leave us with 0 HP left once Execution Sentence was active and a number of generators still on CD. Also some of the abilities we use to generate HP do Holy Damage such as Wake of Ashes, Consecration, Judgment, Judgment, and Hammer of Wrath. The Execution Sentence debuff is a short window and we would not be able to use Wake of Ashes while the debuff is active for the extra boost. Our other Holy Damage abilities could potentially be used once and maybe twice. I feel it is an awkward process to use our Holy Damage abilities to generate enough HP to use an ability that will increase our Holy Damage.

T25 Talents
Fires of Justice and Blade of Wrath remain unchanged. Hammer of Wrath is now baseline and the Azerite Power Empyrean Power will take its place as a Talent. This does change the theme of the row. Previously all options increased Holy Power generation. Empyrean Power doesn’t generate HP but does help reduce downtime in the same fashion. In Cleave/AoE Empyrean Power will pull much farther ahead than Hammer of Wrath ever did.

Empyrean Power is by far the strongest option in this row. Obviously we are early in Alpha and have to see how it ends up being handled. I hope that Blizzard is on the side of buffing FoJ and BoW rather than nerfing Empyrean Power.

T30 Talents
This row remains unchanged.

I think it is worth either making Repentance a True CC that will not cause aggro and/or remove the cast time.

T35 Talents
This did swap places but the talents remain unchanged.

Eye for an Eye still remains more of a niche pick and I think it would be better repurposed as a Divine Protection type ability or augment our existing Shield of Vengeance in some way.

T40 Talents
Entirely new*! Divine Purpose has been moved to this row and we have seen the return of Holy Avenger and Seraphim. This row heavily emphasizes burst damage.

Divine Purpose remains functionally unchanged. I would like to see the proc chance bumped to 20% though for a bit more excitement in the rotation.

Holy Avenger can be a very strong choice and would synergize quite well with both Sanctified Wrath and Crusade. More HP means more spenders which means more explosions with Sanctified Wrath. With Crusade already having increased HP generation with Haste and higher damage than Avenging Wrath it also pairs quite nice. Obviously it will work with Inquisition and can be a perfectly fine combination. Some people will be put off by the 3M CD and not having it line up with Avenging Wrath. It still has the potential to be a very powerful talent even when used every other set of Wings. Choosing this talent would put an emphasis on having a general idea of how long an encounter will last.

Seraphim was a very popular Talent choice in Hellfire Citadel while we had the Tier set bonus that gave us 2 extra charges of Avenging Wrath. Even without that bonus it can potentially be strong given tuning. I mentioned some usage issues above. I think it could borrow some ideas from the old Zealotry that required you to have 3HP to cast, but would not consume any HP.

The main concerns I have with Holy Avenger and Seraphim are the GCD. The GCD was added because stacking cooldowns became too prevalent. Even with the Azerite Essences we were shifted back into stacking cooldowns and this new row further reinforces this point. I would like to see GCD changes be addressed in some meaningful way.

T45 Talents
Word of Glory is now baseline and Healing Hands has taken its place.

Selfless Healer is still an excellent choice overall and does not need a change.

Justicar’s Vengeance is still a trap talent. Many people still assume because it costs more Holy Power it does more damage than Templar’s Verdict which is not the case unless the target is stunned. With a stunned target it only does a small amount more damage. The heal can be nice but I think Flash of Light and Selfless Healer is a better combination and we have baseline Word of Glory now as well.

Healing Hands does not seem very good at face value. Lay on Hands is an incredibly long CD and in most cases at best we could get an extra cast during an encounter. I feel this talent could be made more thematic. Keep the same base mechanic and add an extra layer to it such as sacrificing a percentage of your current health to place an absorb on the target as well. Or it could modify Word of Glory to hit multiple friendlies.

T50 Talents

Divine Purpose has moved to T40 and Sanctified Wrath has taken its place. This row remains largely unchanged.

Sanctified Wrath is essentially Avenging Wrath with the addition of the Light’s Decree Azerite power. It lasts for 25 seconds instead of 20 and also causes your spent HP to do a mini-AoE. The explosion damage does seem a bit low at first glance but that may be intentional to avoid an overbearing amount of AoE. It could potentially find itself falling behind in Single Target. Again though, it is early Alpha. We will have to see how things progress.

Crusade is the same. You just need to take into consideration that Light’s Decree is gone and it only lasts 25 seconds. Crusade tends to scale better later in the expansion with higher item levels and we will need to see if this remains the case going forward.

Inquisition is unchanged. I am content with Inquisition personally.

New Baseline and Removed Abilities
We have seen a number of abilities return from the dead or shift from talents. A few have also perished.

Shield of the Righteous is now usable as Ret. It consumes 3HP and does a small AoE in front of you and provides an armor buff. It does not do very much damage and you would need at least 14 targets to make this worth casting over Divine Storm. This ability seems out of place in its current form. Maybe it could take on more of an absorb type role.

Consecration is now baseline. It was considered to be iconic for Ret. I personally do not agree with that sentiment.

In Vanilla it was only available via a Holy talent and was very mana intensive and almost never used.

In the Burning Crusade it was now baseline but very mana intensive and not frequently used.

It remained baseline in WoTLK and did get used somewhat frequently as we had a glyph to increase the duration to reduce cast frequency, Replenishment, and Divine Plea to restore mana.

In Cataclysm it was baseline and took 55% of your mana. It was unusable.

In Mists and WoD it was Prot only. It returned in Legion as a talent. It was used

In Legion it was a talent option that was widely unused. It did not generate any Holy Power and we had a near GCD capped rotation not leaving much room for it. It very frequently could sim higher than other choices in the same row. It was also balanced around having 100% uptime which is unrealistic in many scenarios.

In Battle for Azeroth it remained a talent but was now competing against Wake of Ashes, a Ret favorite. Consecration was reworked to generate Holy Power and designed to only have 30% uptime. Many viewed the uptime change as a “nerf” or “poor design”. This was quite the opposite. Having a lower uptime on Consecration increases the likelihood of mobs remaining in for the entire duration, which was only 6 seconds. This is not perfect, and you can still have mobs pulled out of your Consecration or die during it reducing actual effectiveness. Like Legion, players could find Consecration simming equally as good as Wake of Ashes if not better. If we look at usage in Logs Consecration was picked less than 5% of the time in any Raid Tier at any difficulty level.

In Shadowlands it is now baseline in Alpha and has unfortunately returned to its Legion form being balanced around 100% uptime and not generating HP. This is a downgrade from the BfA version. Excluding Shadowlands Consecration was a Holy Talent in 1 xpac, a Ret Talent in 2 xpacs, Prot only in 2 expacs and baseline in 3 expacs with a majority being almost no usage. If anything Consecration is an iconic Protection ability and not an iconic Ret ability. Consecration is even part of Prot Paladin’s Mastery. Nothing about it screams iconic for Retribution.

Word of Glory is now baseline. It no longer has a cooldown but it is now a Single Target Heal. I personally would have preferred it heal multiple targets with a cd of some sort to ensure we didn’t turn into a pseudo-healer.

Turn Evil is back once again. It adds a decent level of useful flavor as a disorientation against certain enemy types.

Crusader Aura has also returned granting mounted movement speed. This one is definitely on the flavor side of the spectrum.

Devotion Aura is back and provides a DR to your group. This is a nice ability that you will want to always have in large group content.

Blessing of Sacrifice has returned! This is a decently powerful external DR when combined with bubble. It is also not on the GCD at this time which is great.

Wake of Ashes has made it baseline! It has received a substantial damage buff at the cost of only generating 3HP. It also does less damage to secondary targets as part of Blizzard’s AoE reduction changes.

Retribution is out and Retribution Aura is in. It now provides wings for 8seconds(12 at lvl 56) when an ally within 40 yds dies. I am still firmly against having a DPS increase from an ally dying. We should be more inclined to want everyone alive rather be glad someone has died and you get a free DPS boost. With Shadowlands looking to provide players with more agency Retribution Aura seems like a stick in the mud. If I had to say something nice, gaining Avenging Wrath instead of a damage increase is much preferable.

Concentration Aura has also returned and could potentially have a use to help counteract certain mechanics.

Sense Undead is also back and mainly a flavor benefit.

Hammer of Wrath is now baseline! It requires level 43 and you don’t get the ability to use it during Wings until level 58. More on this later.

Greater Blessing of Kings and Wisdom have been removed. I could make a comment of how Replenishment would be nice to have in place but we are already receiving quite a few extra tools already.

Divine Judgment has been removed.

Changed Abilities
A few abilities have received changes compared to live.

Art of War is now percent based off of your auto attacks. This makes it much more clear that a talent such as Zeal would increase the proc chance of this talent. The 8% chance is roughly equivalent to the old 2RPPM.

Divine Storm had a damage buff and the number of targets hit reduced to 5. This is in line with Blizzard’s new stance on AoE.

Flash of Light had a minor reduction in healing. Again, early Alpha and this is largely inconsequential.

Blade of Justice now has a 12s CD instead of 10.5s. This is an unwelcome and unnecessary change. At 12s it now shares the same cooldown as Judgment which creates a natural cooldown clash. In BfA we currently prioritize using Blade of Justice before Judgment to avoid this very scenario. We do have Art of War which can cause it to come back sooner at times but does not remove the potential for a CD clash.

Leveling Skill Modification
While leveling in BfA and previous expansions if you were not yet max level your abilities would gain power as you level. Playing at max level for so long it is easy to forget that this exists. Crusader Strike gaining a second charge, and Judgment applying a debuff are current examples of this behavior.

This same behavior is going into Shadowlands as well. One of the common complaints was that players would go many levels without getting a new talent or skill. The level squish is one of the ways that the increased frequency of power upgrades becomes available to leveling characters.

Rather than creating new abilities to fill in as leveling perks Blizzard has taken the approach of deconstructing current abilities or making artificial restrictions that become lifted as you level. Reading the datamined patch notes has led to players being very confused. People would get the impression that Wings was now a 1 minute cooldown, or that Blade of Justice was now going to generate 3HP.

In Shadowlands you unlock Judgment at level 3. At level 8 you unlock a passive skill that increases Judgment’s damage by 50%. At level 11 you unlock a passive that allows Judgment to generate 1HP. At level 29 you unlock the last passive of Judgment which places a debuff of the target. So in this example they took a spell that only had 2 unlocks in Bfa and stretched it out to 4.

Avenging Wrath is now unlocked at level 37 and it has a 3M cooldown. At level 49 you unlock a passive that reduces the cd by 1M. This is 1 example of an artificial restriction made solely for the purpose of having the player unlock something at level 49.

Hammer of Wrath has received the same treatment. It is first unlocked at level 43. At level 58 you unlock a passive that allows it to be used while Wings is active. This is the one that bothers me the most if it stays in its current form. When the pre-patch hits we will have at least a month of playtime at level 50 missing functionality that we previously had. We also will be missing it from our leveling experience until we hit 58. This is a small amount of time in the grand scheme and is largely inconsequential overall; but it is one of the things that has rubbed me the wrong way.

I am not against this in general as I do think it is beneficial for new players or existing players new to the class. From the perspective of a max level player I can’t help but think what sort of new stuff could have been added instead.

Legion and BfA Holdovers
Shield of Vengeance is one of the few abilities that is marketed as a defensive but has a backlash component causing it to do damage. Windwalker’s have Touch of Karma and Good Karma which is a much more extreme version of this issue. It is so prevalent that Raid guides will point out when to use these pseudo-defensives for maximum damage. This falls into the category of degenerate gameplay and Ion has even addressed it as such and I look forward to any changes that would reduce or remove the backlash component.

Crusader Strike still does about 25% less damage than an auto attack.

Attack Power still converts to Spell Power at 96%. Is 4% really that big of a difference? The only baseline abilities Ret has that use SP are Judgment and Flash of Light. Ashen hollow from the Venthyr Covenant also uses SP.

Covenant
Only 2 covenants have been revealed and a potential 3rd has been datamined but we are not sure if it is an experiment or not. There are also additional passive abilities that can increase the strength of these abilities. Some of them seem very powerful and we will have to wait and see how they’re restricted.

I’m not going to go on a rant about how they shouldn’t have vastly different power curves or at the very least have easy access to a respec. Others have done this quite well already.

The Kyrian Covenant grants us Divine Toll. It will instantly cast Judgment on up to 5 targets within 30yds on a 1M CD. Each target will receive the Judgment debuff and will grant Holy Power for each target hit. This looks to be a solid choice on paper in Cleave/AoE scenarios.

The Venthyr grants us Ashen Hollow. It does a Shadow damage AoE and also restores health to injured allies on a 4M CD. It also leaves a 1 Minute AoE on the ground that causes us to “gain the benefits of Consecration while within the area.”. I don’t think this is clear on what it means for Ret unless I have missed it. Based on its current wording it seems like it would be very troublesome to get full benefit from this ability.

The Night Fae has a datamined ability named Aura of Summer. It has a “high chance” to cause our attacks to deal 35% of our AP as Holy damage. This would potentially be very strong.

Currently the Necrolord Covenant does not have an ability preview.

Summary
If we receive some slight iteration on the current Shadowlands kit I think we’ll end up in a very favorable position. Even without any changes I believe that Ret will be in a better place mechanically.

P.S. Nathrezim Wings Glyph :slight_smile:

64 Likes

Hello,
After playing the Alpha for a bit as Prot Paladin which I main on retail I wanted to comment on what I think about the class so far. Now this is my opinion so please take it with a grain of salt and understand that it is coming from a good place in my heart as I love this game and this class/spec.

I first wanted to discuss the move back to Holy Power from just using cool-downs. To me this is a great and welcome change as it allows SOTR to have a much higher up-time and using it feels more impact-full as well as with WOG. The only thing I would change would be to have Hammer of Wrath to cost HP and do more dmg as it is right now it does much less dmg then Judgment. My idea would be for it to cost between 1-3 HP and do increasing dmg based on the amount of HP spent this way if you have extra HP or are don’t need SOTR/WOG you can do a big damage hit when the mob is under 20% life.

Second I wanted to go over all of the Talents and discuss which ones I like and which ones I think could use some love. Now remember these are just ideas I had and opionons of mine, some of the numbers and tuning I am suggesting could be way off as I am not a developer.

Tier 15
⦁ Holy Shield - Passive Defensive ability that works well
⦁ Redout - With the new changes for Shadowlands I would just increase the length from 6 to 8 seconds to have a better chance at keeping this buff stacking
⦁ Blessed Hammer - Nice change to reduce all damage and not just auto-attacks (as some mobs do not auto attacks and just cast) also allows you to keep SOTR up alot more with the 3 instant charges

Tier 25
⦁ First Avenger - Great change for SL really like this when pull packs of mobs
⦁ Crusader’s Judgment - IMHO which the way paladin plays now I would change this one to increase Grand Crusader Proc chance by 10% and reduce the judgment charges to 1 instead of 2
⦁ Moment of Glory - In its current form it feels cool however very under powered as you can only get off 5-6 Avengers Shields in the time its up, which could happen anyway if you got lucky with grand crusader procs. Instead of attaching this to Ardent Defender I would make it its own ability and have it last 8 seconds on a 1 min CD since its in the 3rd row

Tier 30
⦁ First of Justice - Good
⦁ Repentance - Good
⦁ Blinding Light - Good

Tier 35
⦁ Unbreakable Spirit - Good
⦁ Cavalier - Good
⦁ Blessing of Spell-warding - If this ability will allow the paladin to keep aggro when used its good, if not please make state that on the talent or ability.

Tier 40
⦁ Divine Purpose - Great addition to Prot with the new Holy Power mechanic
⦁ Holy Avenger - When using this I did not really like it as you can only stack SOTR up to 3 times so the more HP you generate you can either use it to cast SOTR or WOG once you stack SOTR 3 times and you don’t have to Heal yourself or other with WOG you just have to use the HP to spam SOTR which does low damage. For such a long CD I would tie a HP dmg buff into it like divine purpose or lower the CD.
⦁ Seraphim - Compared to Seraphim in Legion and BFA this version I feel works much better as you can still keep high SOTR up-time along with using this ability to buff your mitigation and damage output.

Tier 45
⦁ Hand of the Protector - Good
⦁ Consecrated Ground - Good
⦁ Judment of Light - Good

Tier 50
⦁ Sanctified Wrath - For being a T50 talent this talent felt week as it only extends AW by 5 seconds and give you a bit more HP to again spam more SOTR/WOG at this point I feel that SOTR damge should scale with how much HP you have, if you have 5 banked and you use SOTR it should do a bit more dmg then if you have 3 banked IMHO otherwise it just doesn’t feel good to generate this much Holy Power.
⦁ Righteous Protector - Good change from BFA and Legion to reduce GOTAK coold down as you will not be able to use it multple time a fight instead of just once.
⦁ Final Stand - I am not sure this ability is on the right Tier, it is powerfull but for the T50 talents I just expect to see talents that are amazing and class defineing. This ability just reminds me of a sudo DK grip which to me should not be in this row. As for the abiltiy itself its has always been good for dungeons and some boss fights.

Thanks for taking the time to read through my thoughts about the current state of the Alpha Prot Paladin and if you have any question or comments or maybe even additions to this please feel free to message me or post a reply. Thanks!

Regards,
Omikron

22 Likes

I have never liked it. Not when it was a passive and not now, especially as an Aura. The idea of hoping another player dies so you grow stronger just feels bad and I feel promotes the wrong mindset in group content. Doesn’t feel like the “Paladin” mindset, that concept seems more fitting with DK’s or Warlocks, hoping someone dies to become stronger and all.

I may not main Paladin anymore but I have always loathed Retribution (Er, the ability not the spec) even when it was just a flat passive, now that you have to willingly activate the Aura as a conscious decision… I don’t know how I feel about that.

When I think Aura’s I think invisible Holy force/essence radiating from the Paladin and empowering those around them. How could Retribution do that is the question?

Maybe when someone under the effect of the Aura takes damage there is a small chance to give a short damage buff to all other players affected by the Aura? Inspiring them to divine vengeance of sorts at the sight of witnessing a comrade get hurt?

Either way, I think that the idea of wanting a teammate to die so that you become more powerful is bad design and does not really fit in with the general idea of Auras in my opinion.

63 Likes

I agree, I don’t like the on death mechanism, but I also don’t think ret needs two talents in their tree that lowers the cooldown of lay on hands. When compared to a spec like boomkin or resto, both ret and holy feel very under…prepared? They lack utility dearly and giving them a mechanism that requires someone to die as part of their already limited utility toolkit not only goes against the theme, but also goes no where in providing a reason to bring the paladin.

26 Likes

Agreed, A paladin never wants one of his team mates to die and to buff you for this feels bad.

As for a comparison Retribution in DND imbues Words of Power into your weapon, which I think could work with the Holy Power system well. I thought of a few different reworks below.

  1. Retribution Aura - Grants you extra Holy Power by the amount of incoming damage done to your allies within 40yds. (This could have an ICD to not make it OP and limit the amount of HP generated)

  2. Retribution Aura - Increase Damage done by 1-5% depending on how much HP you are holding

  3. Retribution Aura - When your allies within 40 yards take damage it reduces the cool-down of Avenging Wrath by 1 second (again this could have an ICD to limit the amount of seconds removed from AW over a set amount of time)

Regards,
Omi

30 Likes

Keep in mind they want auras to be something all 3 specs could make use of. Also, in my mind an aura should provide an affect to allies within the aura. If it’s a selfish buff based on a scenario it’s not an aura, it’s a passive bonus. Auras always bestowed their benefit to nearby allies.

One more thing that kind of I guess irks me about the ret aura is how drastically opposite it is to what paladins used to be. Remember Divine Intervention? You, the paladin, died to save someone, not this, not getting buffed when someone else dies. Honestly if anyone should get a buff when an ally dies it feels like it should be, 3-5 seconds of metamorphosis for the tank that seeks VENGEANCE. I guess you could argue that retribution is about vengeance with justice behind it, but I dunno, still seems far displaced from the paladin theme.

29 Likes

EXACTLY!!! That is one of the biggest reasons I hate this one so much.

  • It does not benefit the raid or party like the other Auras, IE: What an Aura is suppose to do. Instead it only benefits the Paladin using it.
  • It’s literally just turning a passive Retribution has had into an Aura.
  • It promotes counter-intuitive game play of HOPING that someone dies so that YOU benefit a small bit.

I think the intent was the idea of “Oh, if the raid starts dying this could give the push needed to down whatever you are against!” but it just never felt right to me. A Paladin shouldn’t glance to the raid/party frames and see someone near death and go “I could toss my selfless healer, or bubble, or whatever on them and heal them… Nah, I want that sick damage boost!” It just feels so counter to what Paladins stand for and, to me, does not drive home what I think the idea behind it was. The whole “I will avenge my fallen comrade” shtick.

The fact that, as you also pointed out–

Makes the new retribution aura so counter to what Auras are.

Like, again, while I get where they were trying to go with this concept it honestly feels a lot more at home with a Death Knight, Demon Hunter, or Warlock to play off the idea of “Oh, X person just died? Gooooooooooood!” /insert dark self enhancing powers here

Again, I think this is absolutely the worst way to handle the Aura in my personal opinion. The Paladin should get some benefit from it, yeah, but it should also benefit everyone else affected by the Aura. Not to mention the new Retribution aura is absolutely pointless in Solo Content.

I feel a good place to start with fixing it is considering what the term “Retribution” means. As Merriam-Webster states–

Definition of retribution

1 : recompense, reward

2 : the dispensing or receiving of reward or punishment especially in the hereafter

3 : something given or exacted in recompense especially : punishment

Did You Know?

With its prefix re- , meaning “back”, retribution means literally “payback”.

So it should certainly be “reactive” in how it works. The original Aura was a Thorns and was certainly “reactive” but… for me, it’s kind of boring just being a flat bit of holy thorns damage.

I think playing off of the “reward/punishment” duality of Retribution could be interesting.

Maybe something along the lines of, and I am just spitballing ideas here…

*"When a player under the effects of Retribution Aura takes direct damage the attacking entity is marked for Retribution for X Seconds causing all attacks made against the target to deal Y additional Holy Damage.

Entities can only be affected by Retribution once every Z seconds!"*

The above plays off the idea of Payback, triggering when an enemy hurts you or an ally. It plays off the idea of Reward AND Punishment by rewarding the injured party and their allies with extra holy damage AND punishing the enemy by causing them to suffer divine wrath. It’s damage focused, much in line with “Retribution Paladins” as well!

Payback, Reward, Punishment and it would act like an Aura in that everyone under its effects would benefit from it and not just the Paladin. Also… you know… you don’t have to hope someone dies to trigger an honestly greedy buff.

Is it a perfect solution? Nah, but it would fit more in line with the idea of what Retribution means as well as what an Aura is and I feel would be a step in the right direction.

Just my personal two copper on the situation.

31 Likes

I was really hoping for some updates to auras in this build, but there doesn’t appear to be any yet. Holy paladin is going to be hurting at the current rate of things. Their aura choices for aura mastery are so bad. It feels painful that devo aura is really their only option and is nerfed to provide less damage reduction on a longer cd and for a shorter duration than a dps or tank death knight can offer, nevermind barrier or the hp recovery raid cooldowns the other healers offer.

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This is a bit of preemptive feedback, because we haven’t actually seen this in alpha yet, but if Aura of the Seasons is legitimately the Night Fae ability please make sure it doesn’t encourage further anti-class gameplay like ret aura does.

Currently it’s datamined to shift the aura to the next season after you spend a set amount of holy power. This is going to encourage the specs to not want to spend holy power once they’re on the season that plays favorably for their spec. Like holy paladins are going to get to the +healing aura and then not want to use LoD or WoG to stay on it unless they have to. Again, I know this is early, but I think paladins are already suffering from a conflict of choice and I don’t mean ‘difficult’ decisions that make for good gameplay I mean decisions that forces you to ignore one piece of your toolkit or the other. We don’t need another thing that makes you want to fight against another piece of the toolkit as best as you can.

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Hi all. I entered the Alpha on Thursday, and now that I’ve played up to Necrotic Wake, this is my little bit of insight on Holy paladins and their changes.

Let me preface by saying that I’m probably the quintessence of casual gaming. I struggle to keep up with lore. I’m constantly having to google WoW shorthand when talking to people in my guild. I cringe when I have to run a dungeon because my lack of hand/eye coordination makes trying to keep four people alive one of the most stressful things in my life. And all of that being said, I love playing my Holy paladin because by healing and keeping other people alive I get a more fulfilling gaming experience.

It feels like being a healer is going to be a much more difficult enterprise so far in the play test.

The new combat abilities are welcomed. In longer battles currently in the main game there’s eventually a few seconds that I’m sitting for a few seconds waiting for all four of my main attacks to be available again. But at the moment the trade off is that two of my healing skills require being charged by Holy Power. That is a real drag for Light of Dawn.

I love Light of Dawn. Light of Dawn lets me charge into a fight and spray healing as an opening act; no need to see who’s most in need of healing, no need to target anyone. In a fight I don’t need to make a choice at the moment between using an attack or blasting the area with a heal; Holy Power means I have to decide between an attack or a heal. It’s not even like the more Holy Power saved makes the Light of Dawn more effective. That, at least, would make empowering the Light of Dawn with Holy Power worth it. Holy Power simply takes one of the most useful tools in my healing toolkit and turns it into a millstone around my neck.

Also, taking Aura of Mercy away is just cruel. Devotion Aura feels sad in contrast.

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An idea for ret aura:

Something like “healing or blessing a target affected by this aura while they’re under 20% health causes the target’s abilities to do X% holy damage for Y% seconds. A target may only be affected by this affect once per Z.” That way they are encouraged to use their toolkit to save their allies instead of ignoring them so they get buffed thus rewarding good gameplay. Let the choice lie in who they save, not whether they save them and the aura they choose to run (make them all decent not half of them bad options).

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I know this is a hot topic right now on the paladin forum. Exorcism should be bring back, the sound effect and visual were really nice.

Should it be replacing Blade of Justice or just be another spell in our rotation that’s another question.

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Isn’t it just the smite animation attached to holy damage? I mean exorcism I don’t recall doing anything vastly that amazing. Holy wrath was a nice niche ability but Wake of Ashes fills that void a bit.

1 Like