Oracle looks like pretty much the pick for Disc now for M+/raid since it’s a flat +40% damage/atonement increase and they just nerfed Abyssal Reverie. Also looks like a solid pick for Holy in M+ , but it’s not touching Archon for raid healing anytime soon.
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I just can’t see the power there for Mythic+ the long 3 buff (4 with the capstone) cycle time maps poorly onto the damage profiles for mythic+ at the more casual level where Archon’s big blast of healing every minute is to my eye far more reliable.
Small little detail I noticed if you have Body and Soul and cast PoM with Oracle it also gives the target the speed boost from the PWS created on them. You can go Feather, PWS, and PoM and cover some distance.
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You’re not wrong but Fae Guardians was something that felt good to press. Oracle doesn’t feel good to press.
It’s because Fae Guardians gave you a crap load of mana and 2 minute Divine Hymns for Holy.
Ok finally got to do some testing with the Oracle buffs…
I think it’s still not competitive with Voidweaver, maybe in Raids if you stack Prem. Insight and Piety with your Ramp but even then I don’t think it’s enough to be better than Voidweaver.
For M+ it’s definitely not the play, yes you have a bit more atonement uptime and a bit more healing when outside of your Squid or Mindblast windows but honestly it wasn’t very noticeable I don’t think it makes up for how much weaker your Mindblast and specially your Mindblast + Squid windows are compared to Voidweaver.
I got this feeling from testing but decided to actually go onto a dummy and try to put some numbers to it, it would be about 3-4 paragraphs to detail the testing I did, I can if someone is interested but let’s just say I meassured “Total Atonement healing during a PW:Radiance window”, my TLDR was:
A) When not using Squid or Mindblast: Oracle did 54% more Atonement healing than Voidweaver. (But honestly both are pretty low so…)
B) When using Mindblast but not Squid: Voidweaver did 68% more Atonement healing than Oracle.
C) When using both Squid and Mindblast: Voidweaver did 128% more Atonement healing than Oracle (yes, more than twice).
Remark 1:
Note that I didn’t use Premonition on theese tests and that’s kind of the big faeture for Oracle so the results would be a bit closer, that said proper use of Premonition is harder to pull-off and even then, outside of Premonition of Solace I believe you’d use the other ones to buff your burst windows, Voidweaver already does that but better.
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The real question for M+ is how damage pans out, basically.
There was no question Voidweaver would be better for our squid windows. But if we need to do more healing than just our squid window healing - and have to be more flexible, Oracle is just going to be better.
Also not using premonition is a pretty large thing to be losing. Just for example, Insight once you’ve got fatebender makes penance something you can fire 4x with no cooldown. In a squid window, that’s pretty valuable.
I mean if Oracle keeps getting buffs it will eventually reach a point where you could consider it, but at least from what I’ve tested as it stands now I still think Voidweaver is the clear better choice in every M+ scenario.
The only situation Oracle is ahead is when you don’t have either Squid or Mindblast but the healing is so bad in those cases (even as Oracle) that it’s kind of whatever, you barely even notice it so imo the value of that little extra output is just too low.
Voidweaver only using Mindblast (which for me in Beta has 20s CD and will be further reduced with more haste) is about 33% ahead in atonement output than Oracle using both Mindblast and Squid. Sure maybe you play the Premonitions well and can make up for that 33% perhaps even pull a little ahead if played perfectly but you are commiting a lot of resources to match what Voidweaver can do every 20s with just Mindblast… And ofc using Mindblast + Squid as Voidweaver is just signifficantly ahead from anything Oracle can do no matter how well you play it (and way easier).
You could point out at the 25% buffed PW:Shield from Oracle but I mean Voidweaver also gets a 20% buff to it so it’s not that big of a difference, and I guess there’s the PoM stacks but I don’t think that’s nearly enough to justify it.
Again, maybe it gets buffed further, but as it stands right now I think the difference is waay too large imo.
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Oracle is a decent choice in M+ now, IMO. Beyond the throughput/damage pattern questions, its defensive capabilities are better: 30% buff to PWS when self-cast (on top of the 20% buff) or a nice buff to Desperate Prayer/Bulwark, and 10% more to Pain Sup and Prem shielding for 50% of your HP, are no joke. And Miraculous Recovery will help Disc with spot healing where it is weak.
But you only tested Mindbender build?
Yes, I don’t think a non Minbender build would be viable in M+, at least not at the item levels we get scaled to for Beta M+. It’s not like the talent tree has that many options so I’m assuming non-mindbender you mean taking Aegis or Wrath instead?
Honestly I don’t think it’s worth the trade-off, you’d lose a lot of AOE potential for a bit more extra spot healing… But I guess if there was a dungeon that was all about spot healing and was very light on the AOE or those AOE moments came very sporadically you could try it… let’s see:
Stonevault: Definitelty not.
Ara-Kara: Definitely not.
Sige of Boralus: Definitely not.
Grim Batol: Definitely not.
City of Threads: Definitely not.
Mists: Maybe I guess this is where I’d probably try it.
Necrotic Wake: I’d say probably not but maybe.
Dawnbreaker: (Honestly I’ve only run it once in M+ and don’t remember too well but it was pretty overtunned so I’d say no).
So I guess the best bets would be Mists or Necrotic Wake, I think those don’t have that many heavy AOE moments or not so constant ones, the problem on theese two is that when you do have AOE moments I’m pretty sure it’s not safe to use Uppies because there are ground effects happening on those moments that can easily kill you trough the shield.
I was more thinking an Ulti Pen build, as Oracle is custom-built to get its CD down to sub-2 minutes.
Regardless, without Amirdrassil set bonus and now nerfed Reverie, I’m not convinced Squid is going to get the best value for Oracle. Obviously VW gets much better benefit by converting Smite to shadow damage, but Oracle isn’t bound by spell type. From all your testing, it sounds like you only tested strength against weakness. I figure Oracle can do better- especially if you actually use its main mechanic.
I have actually tested a bit more now…
Essentially if I use Premonition of Clarivoyance (or stack Piety and Insight) and also add Mindblast and Squid (basically everything I got), all of that together matches almost exactly the Atonement output I get with Voidweaver only using Mindblast and it’s about 60% of Voidweaver using both Mindblast and Squid.
Honestly if I had to do a non-mindbender build I think it would be pretty close between Oracle and Voidweaver for power-level… Idk I might still lean towards Voidweaver even in that situation because of playstile and more consistent burst… Either way I really don’t see that being a competitive option.
I guess you could try that… I don’t think it’s gonna work out so well but I guess it’s something to try, maybe… Even if it was more or less close, which again, I doubt, I still rather rely on Squid windows than Uppies (it’s just more consistent imo).
But I mean don’t let me stop you, you can test it and if that works for you then great… I’m personally not that into Oracle as a playstile to begin with so I feel I’ve tested enough to be satisfied with my understanding on where each Hero talent stands at the moment.
My view of oracle is more opting into AoW/Weal.
Ulti pen is still too long CD even with the penance CDR to have nothing else for AoE emergencies IMO. I’d play mindbender but focus more heavily on PW:S. PoM bounces + 3m health shields and a very fast PW:L at 50% is decent. Basically something like THIS
I’ve looked at it on dummies, but haven’t played it since the buffs in dungeons. I just imagine it’d be pretty good.
What it comes down to is how valuable DR is over just an AoE burst.
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Voidweaver is basically like having a stronger Schism buff. You’re going to be Mind Blast on cd regardless and then for 8-11s you benefit from the Schism bonus + Voidweaver to get about an extra +40% atonement/damage boost.
The problem with VW atm is you go from being really strong for 50% of the time to being weak… weaker than Oracle.
With Oracle you’re just getting a flat +40% damage boost (70% of that is atonement in M+) so overall the experience is much smoother on Oracle. There’s no jarring experience of feeling constantly strong for 11s and then weak for another 10s while you wait for Mind Blast to reset.
Here’s the problem… Yes Oracle gives you a Flat +40% damage boost (almost) and I know it sounds like a lot, you might think that well I do more healing baseline and then that 40% is still active during a Mindblast window so even if Voidweaver still does a bit more on those windows it should be a smoother experience as Oracle…
And before testing it that’s what I thought too, but it just didn’t feel like that… In practice, that “smoother” experience with Oracle feels more like “I do no healing without mindblast” and I still do no healing with Mindblast… Really doens’t feel my atonements do much of anything unless I literally throw everything to it, even then it’s not fantastic just passable.
That’s why I went to test in dummies and to put actual numbers to it and well yeah what I found out was that I was overlooking how low the base atonement healing I can do with no modifiers is and underestimating how much of a boost I get when using Mindblast as Voidweaver.
Just to paint a picture let’s take the Atonement healing you can do during a PW:Radiance window (baseline with no Mindblast or Squid) as 100%… This is more or less how it pans out:
Oracle:
Base - 154%
With Mindblast: 205%
With Mindblast + Squid: 258%
With Mindblast + Squid + Premonition of Clarivoyance: 350%
Voidweaver:
Base - 100%
With Mindblast: 343%
With Mindblast and squid: 590%
*Note that I’m counting “total atonement healing during a PW:Radiance window” so the results are actually a bit biased in favor of Oracle because the longer duration of that window.
So basically, just using Mindblast as Voidweaver which has almost a 50% uptime, you do about the same healing Oracle does when throwing everything into it. Now in terms of how much actual healing that is, over the whole PW:Radiance window is about half of someone’s HP in terms of atonement healing.
So as Oracle you have to throw everything you have just for that and that’s about as good as it gets for you… As Voidweaver you do that on a regular basis then you have the Squid to signifficantly boost it, this is the only moment (Voidweaver with Mindblast + Squid) where the healing feels actually powerful and could potentially match what another healer can do during CDs.
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VW and Oracle will do roughly the same amount of hps with VW edging out on dps (especially if you can proc Depth of Shadows), but there’s a difference between the target dummies and an actual dungeon.
With VW you’re front loading everything into that 11s duration of having everything up and then you’re sitting there for 10s waiting for Mind Blast to reset so you can do it all over again.
With Oracle you have more tools at your disposal to handle the rough hps checks between Piety and Insight and your hps isn’t seeing an immediate -30% drop for 10s gap like with VW.
It all depends on the dungeon though: if the dungeon has a lot of strong pulsing mobs you probably want to play Oracle. If there’s not a lot of aoe damage then VW would be better.
Honest question… Have you actually tested it in a M+ dungeon?.. I ask this because everything you are saying is exactly how I thought it would pan out, then I tested it and realized it was not that… I don’t think even the total hps is “roughly the same amount”.
As I explained, the mistake I was making in my assumption was both overestimating the base healing we do and undersestimating how much of a boost we get when using Mindblast as Voidweaver…
The difference in how much atonement healing we put out as Voidweaver with and without Mindblast out is not 30%, not even close to that… It’s more like 200 to 250% difference and that’s what breaks the assumptions I had before.
So let’s say 100% is your base power, no modifiers: As Oracle you are doing about 150% of that then about 200% when you use your Mindblast… As Voidweaver you only do 100% normally but about 300 to 350% when you use Mindblast… Like even total HPS is not close… And adding your Squid to that makes Voidweaver skyrocket waay more, your Premonitions don’t come close to being able to overcome that difference.
Unless my character is literally bugged and I’m seeing very different things, I just don’t see how after testing it you can conclude it is close at all. To me both the numbers I’m seeing and how it actually feels in practice on actual dungeons it just doesn’t feel like Oracle can keep up.
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I would agree with Rädamanthys and can confirm that in M+ the Oracle is inferior to the Voidweaver.
Many, just too many boss fights and also trash pulls deal big damage in 20 second intervals. To name one example. The final boss in City of Threads. I’m glad we all have 20 second mind blast. As an Oracle I would have my CDs the first few times, but the boss fight takes a while and as a Voidweaver you always have Mind Blast ready to go.
The main problem I see is the lack of action. There are too many situations where you have to sit on premonition and wait for the right moment to use it.
On the other hand, it also happens that you have to cast premonition even if you don’t want to, just to get to the spell you need soon. Unfortunately, this is the nature of rotations.
These circumstances, and especially the alarming lack of control, make the use of premonition unsatisfying and not adaptable to these situations.
Other examples are Grim Batol second and last boss, Ara-Kara first and last boss, Stone Vault first and second boss (left side), Dawnbreaker second and third boss, Boralus second boss.
In all these cases, you are simply powerless as an Oracle, whereas as a Voidweaver you always have an answer to such events.
The Voidweaver is generally accused of being too dependent on modifiers. Outside of Shadow Covenant and Entropic Rift, we are very weak. I don’t want to contradict that. For me, the challenge is to deal with this downtime properly. It’s a matter of shifting these weak moments to a period in which little healing is required.
And these moments do indeed exist, so the Voidweaver will always be the better choice for M+.
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Yup I agree with all this… But I think currenly it goes a bit beyond in the sense that Voidweaver is just stronger, even if the dungeons didn’t require as much burst AOE I think just in terms of raw numbers and HPS Oracle can’t really compete at the moemnt in M+.