Feedback: New Dungeon Affix - Beguiling


(Vhye) #25

There are packs with casters in them that need to be CCed, or packs like the now-stationary central pack in Atal’dazar, that can be skipped with a rogue (only one of the affix mobs has truesight). Point in fact - you’ll end up wanting more rogues to blind the humanoids, to shroud skip packs without the truesights adds - and even the knockback adds you can handle easily with classes that are already meta.

They reinforce the meta, they don’t change the meta. The packs are significantly slower to kill, not more challenging. All this affix does is slow down progress, it doesn’t make anything interesting. Just boring, slow and poorly designed.


#26

if stuff is over tuned. it wont matter if rogues are not the meta.

if stuff is not fun. it wont matter that rogues are not the meta. lmao


(Felplagued) #27

They know the community asks for PVP vendors all the time, its not like they have literally never heard a pvper say “i want pvp vendors” they are just choosing not to add them.

but nah i hate the affix, void is fine, gotta work around it abit with some planning, but the other 2 are trash, really i would be fine, if not for “adds are immune to cc of any kind” cause then you run into groups with casters and just get destroyed.

also affixes cant work for these, it has to be a bug I hope.


(Niingdorei) #28

I haven’t done a repeat M+ dungeon yet on PTR so I’m not entirely sure on this, for testing purposes are the emissaries spawning in different places/amounts through every dungeon? Are we sure it’s not just a weekly thing that there are few void adds? And other weeks there are more voids?

Imo the only one that’s really a major problem in terms of slowing things down, being unfun by an abnormal amount, etc. is the Tides one. I feel like the idea is that one of the strengths of melee vs ranged is their large amounts of cc and interrupts they have and this basically takes that away. But mobs getting their interupts and stuff off will just make the dungeons more frustrating and long.

For the enchanted emissaries, plenty of ranged classes have spammable abilities and knockingback mobs with attacks has been a mechanic for a long time. Amount of slowdown there won’t be anything abnormal for most affixed. Even if ww monks are still meta I don’t think they’d be using RoP on an enchanted emissary.

Void shouldn’t be an issue as long as Blizz doesn’t place them in horrible places you can’t LoS easily in terms of speed.


#29

This Affix is not fun, at all, this just makes trash even more frustrating and annoying without any positives.

There was speculation on wowhead you would get a buff from killing them that would aid you, and gives a positive from dealing with how horrible they are, but right now there isn’t AND without bwonsamdi fail buff this affix is a massive step backwards.

There is already streamers talking (as well as people in my group) about which maiden to death skip or shroud (if possible). You know you made a bad affix when death skipping is a positive, giving a permanent buff for that run for every Maiden you killed would help this, is it worth death skipping to lose out on the buff to save time? Or is it better to get the buff ?

Please add some kind of positive from dealing with them, or a buff to help you if you fail the timer.


#30

The affix is not fun to play. The design principles behind the affix are fairly obvious and I think the mark was missed completely.

  1. Promote single target damage dealers
    This was done in the least creative and least fun way possible. Basically just “litter the dungeon with insane unsufferable priority mobs”(and theres enough of those already for normal dungeons alone).
  2. Build into the affix a way to make packs unskippable so that you are forced to do them.
    Again just an incredibly unfun and uncreative solution to something that was hardly even a problem. A giant truesight circle that pulses damage? Really? The obvious solution here was to have some sort of system where if you conquer these difficult packs you get a party wide damage boost, haste buff, or maybe time added on to the timer to entice players to take the risk and fight the pack that everyone says is too hard.

Please consider that there is plenty of time to completely rework this affix. Try to take into account what players find fun in mythic plus and incorporate it in a way that fits what you want to accomplish.


#31

Did you guys miss the incredibly negative perception of Infested and the comparatively insanely positive perception of Reaping? I can’t think of any other reason you’d design ANOTHER slow affix that forces you to pull small and shifts the difficulty of the dungeon onto the affix rather than the mechanics of the mobs themselves.

Also this “rotating weekly” thing I read about is cancer. Completely ruins any amount of planning you can do to get a solid route you like down.


#32

Hi. Etchxozzox here. I am a very avid M+ player. I multi class, and have thousands of runs in both S1 and S2. In Season 1 i was #1 Spriest in NA #2 in world, and currently I am 3500 IO rogue and 3k ELE. I just say this to give some background into my feedback. I think in general this season affix really misses the mark for a few big reasons. In season 1 the general complaints with Infested were (required too much coordination in pugs, barrier of entry was too high, pace was too slow, over emphasis on certain classes bdk, rogue, etc.). In season 2 reaping was seen as a very welcome change. I think on the whole most of the M+ community especially the higher end M+ community enjoys reaping, it was fast paced and generally fun. The only negatives that I can think of hearing for most people in the M+ community about reaping was that it (1) was considered a little too easy, and (2) it even was more restrictive than infested in terms of ideal class composition (prot, resto druid, outlaw, outlaw, x). Now I agree with both these points, but as far as the second point two goes, this imo is due more to Blizzard’s unwillingness to balance comps for M+ than it was to the affix.

Now this brings me to the new affix. I can honestly say that I was so excited for a new affix. Season 2 was a little too long, especially with the lack of class balance, and I was hoping for something new and exciting. Instead, we were given beguiling. I know throughout the 10+ discords filled with with 3K+ M+ players, there hasn’t been one person yet who has talked about the new affix with excitement or anything but fear that it will kill Keys.

Now i think I can boil down to the fear to a basic idea. Blizzard does not currently balance dungeons, dungeon scaling, affixes or classes. Look at the disparity between keys completed in TD compared to KR. Look at the disparity between Fortified Teeming Explosive Weeks to Tyrannical Bursting Skittish Weeks. Look at the class disparity between Prot warriors, Outlaw Rogues, Resto Druid. Now I will wholeheartedly admit the difficulty of balancing all of those variables is a gargantuan task for anyone to accomplish. Now it appears that Blizzard keeps kicking the can down the road on balancing these, and I am not sure if it is just too difficult (which it might be), or whether Blizzard continues to regard M+ not as true end game content,.

Whatever the reason, M+ is in a very poor state of balance (imo). Now, Blizzard is proposing as a seasonal affix to put in play a new variable, that interacts with all the other variables (that they do not balance). This is so frightening to me (and to a vast number of the high end M+ community , at least all the ones i have talked too). This affix appears to take the worst parts of infested, and expounds upon them. I have no clue what the logic is behind this affix. What is the thinking behind interjecting another variable, that blizzard neither intends to balance, nor has the capacity to balance. This affix will further expound upon the push week vs. dead week disparity. If you put a maiden in certain packs certain weeks, it will essentially create weeks where that dungeon will hard cap at a certain level. Then you will have teams that only roll that key, and because blizzard took away keystone deletion, they will decide not to play the rest of the week. I have lost so many friends and good players to dead weeks, and I am very afraid that this new affix will create dead weeks out of push weeks. I really hope blizzard reconsiders this affix, I dont see any positives out of it so far. Now maybe if they brought back keystone deletion to combat their lack of balance i could see this affix working out (remember we had this throughout most of infested which at least made it bearable). Without it, I fear S3 maybe the season that M+ died.


#33

The Void-Touched Emissary: The Queens Decree is a one shot every 8 seconds. There are several one shot mechanics in Mythic plus, but this one seems to be overpowerful. i.e. the punishment doesn’t fit the crime.

The Enchanted Emissary: Her energy level to cast her teleport ability, needs to be trackable. It looks like you need to drop her from 100% to 90% for this to cast to happen. It seems it would be more satisfying or understandable to have her go from 100% to 1% and then cast the ability.


#34

Another issue is you do not drop combat while they are casting their teleport and their cast is a little long. Slows down the dungeon more.


#35

:warbanner:


#36

There are wayyy too many of these present in dungeons. Need to be scaled back some for sure. The Void emissary is pretty clearly over-tuned. Either the damage needs to be scaled back or the hp on the mob needs to be dropped so you can just blast them with funnel/ST damage before they can get two casts off. The other emissaries seem fine and the affix will function as intended by forcing you to do dungeons differently based on their placements.

I don’t think it is very fun. I understand the idea behind it, but bfa dungeons already take forever and have very hard trash. This will just slow dungeons down even more and make trash even worse. I sincerely hope that fortified does not affect the emissaries cause if it does that will be ridiculous.

If possible I would recommend a serious rework of what these emissaries do and consider giving players a buff if they have killed the mobs or something of the like.


#37

My biggest issue with these so far is that they slow down every dungeon considerably. I think going back to the premise of affixes in the first place, they are a way to keep us interested in doing the same dungeons week after week for two years. Going by that, affixes should be ways to make dungeons more interesting and engaging, as opposed to things that make dungeons arbitrarily more slow and inconvenient. Beguiling is firmly in the latter category.

It is still bizarre that the recent Ion interview said that the team is focusing on making dungeon trash more difficult. Considering bosses are easier than many mini-bosses and trash packs in current dungeons, that focus is on the completely wrong area.

Plus it still seems like rogues will be the best class for dealing with this affix, and I swear if there is another season where rogues are worth bringing over any other melee I will just give up on trying to depressingly push high keys as a non yellow class.


#38

Hey, Coüp here. I played a lot the first half of season 2, was rank 1 alliance resto druid for a little while, and chested the world first 25 key this expansion. So I hope from that I have a good grasp on the current dungeon/class M+ meta, along with a strong love and passion for M+ as endgame content. With that said, I actually disagree with the consensus of just wanting a Reaping 2.0 for next season. I think that having players change their route every week was a great part of season 1 (although through a not-very-fun infested affix). Meticulously planning your route is a great part about M+, and I think that’s one of the things that sets it apart from raiding, having a different experience almost every time you walk into a dungeon. I think Beguiling has the opportunity to be a great affix, but there would need to be an overhaul on mob balance in dungeons (not to mention the inherently overpowered emissaries). Should all packs be the same difficulty? Of course not. But should the constructs in Atal Dazar exist as they are now? Absolutely not. Or the mini bosses preset in Shrine of the Storm (more of an example of low mob percentage value than pure difficulty)? I think it’s possible to have an affix that forces you to change your route every week and play the dungeons differently, but it’s also possible to have that same affix not slow everyone down and cause you to quit the game every other week, depending on where the emissaries are, along with other affix combos, making most dungeons far too frustrating to play at a high level. Also, in reference to another’s post, the Infested affix was only bearable in season 1 because of keystone deletion, something your team said didn’t matter because “it only affects a small amount of players.” If I apply that logic to genocides, saying those people are a small amount of the overall population so it just doesn’t matter, does the logic hold up? Thank you.


#39

I think i can speak for anyone here that plays video games, or plays m+ that this affix is the most chemo inducing, death bed giving, aids infested crap that has been implemented in the game since keystone deletion has been taken away from the game.

Oh boy, where do i start. The arcane emissary that makes all the adds around it immune to interupts,stuns,knockbacks,any form of CC etc. and then that emissary being placed in notoriously ruthless caster add spots. For example in Atal Dazar on the left side with a confessor and augur, both requiring multiple kicks just to be killed, or the still massively overtuned casters in Kings Rest after 2nd boss. I just fail to see how this is “fun” especially considering tanks in this game get annhilated by casters? Its just a straight up punishment and had no thought put into it.

The shadow add “Dps race” what a cute name some people actually give this mob. 8 second 50%+ max hp wave of death that will wipe your group on the 3rd cast. The simple solution is to just LOS it, but the fact you have to peak in and out to dmg this mob so you don’t die is so mind numbingly slow, meticulous, and boring. “Bring a heavy ST class” you’re actually pretentious if you think that is going to solve the issue of this add, you don’t bring a heavy single target class to M+ for one f-ing add, youre going to bring heavy utility high dmg classes like rogues and demon hunters that have great single target and aoe further establishing the meta.

I’m just going to skip the last emissary since i kinda like the reflect aura add, and the reason why is because the meta healer, the resto druid, can just moonfire the thing away and use thypoon so atleast this add isnt really that big of an affix.

I think from just talking about this seasonal affix, its clear to me the 4th affix idea has tremendously failed. All it has done is solidify the meta in every season harder than it did in legion ( not counting the tank/healer spot that has always been 1 and 1). Infested in season 1 was not fun because there were 3 rotations of it that interacted with the 12 rotations of affix. And it was clear to anyone, that 1 of the 3 infested rotations had like <5 infest in the entirity of the 10 dungeons while the other 2 weeks had 20< and you were just punished for playing the game on the off weeks where the infest was actually nonexistent.

Reaping was a godsend of an affix. Man, if this affix was in legion( along with keystone deletion so no one had to play Seat ever) during the actual primetime mechanics of m+ like gear swap, legendaries,and trinkets that actually did something people would be calling for legion 7.3.2 legacy servers way before f-ing Classic.( I unironically do) The only downside to this affix was i would say, it was influenced way too much on the failed class design of this expansion. Outlaw rogues were and still are way too op doing more than any class in the game with just bladeburry, prot warriors being a tank doing more Burst Aoe than any class in the game, and the fact classes give 5% bonus physical/magic dmg that you can’t buy from the AH and then incorporating that skillset in a 5 man dungeon.

And now Beguiling, or should i say, Infested 2.0 . It will have the same problem as infested, there will be a rotation of the affix that has the best placement of those Hepatitis C ridden Naga or the absence of and its interaction with the affix rotation week (Week 1,Week 5, i pray have the best beguiling week so you can still have some fun on those weeks and then play some Minecraft for the other 10 weeks) And it will solidify a must have Meta comp like the previous seasons have due to a combination of how this awful affix works and what classes work around it while still contributing the most to the core dungeon and the timer.

I Would also like to conclude this grammatically forsaken ramble with a final thought, and thats people play m+ for the higher scaling, not the affix. Affixes are nuisances that have not been designed well in accordance with the dungeon for BFA, they simply make pulls you did one week not possible the other and slow down/punish high velocity gameplay for the sake of “strategy”? In the glorious 7.3.2 , every affix week was amazing minus one (bolster + explosive + tyran —who would’ve thought these two affixes that punish chain+mass pulling being put next to an affix that doubles boss length would be awful?) and you could actually play the game.You could play any dungeon on any week except Seat because that dungeon had the Kings Rest scaling.Now its just you wait for 2 or 3 out of the 12 weeks in the rotation to play the game and this is because of the lack of affix balance with the dungeons.


(Lightborough) #40

Theres a few people who have tested it, and they all say the same.

You’re just a moderator in silicon valley, dont pretend to be smart.

The current state of this game shows you that you aren’t.


(Metrohaha) #41

Tested this out for about 4 hours across 3 dungeons today. Its quite unique, that’s for sure! Some very unique situations this affix can put you in, and that is already more interesting to me than the previous two seasons.

In terms of feedback I will leave two main points.

  1. The most exciting moment I had with this affix was when I came up the stairs towards the golden priestess boss in Atal. Just running up the ramp, and BOOM. There is a Void-touched emissary there!
    This is an amazing idea honestly, and was really unique compared to all the other placements. I hadn’t seen any others that were tied to a mob pack and think this is the most creative way to deploy these shadow mobs.
    They seem to be very difficult to deal with when they are attached to a pack, so if I could give feedback it would be put them in areas like this more often, and with big packs way less often.
    There was one in the super dangerous pack you might skip in Siege, and it obviously prevented us from skipping it, but there is just no way to engage that mob and that pack at the same time, so we had to do really suboptimal things to make it happen.

Either way, I’ve only done 3 dungeons, so if anyone knows of any more stand-alone placements of these lemme know. I’d love to see it!

  1. The mobs take way too long to leave.
    I don’t know if this is intended or how it works exactly, but if the mob is killed, it should be gone.
    Keeping us in combat after the pack is over is just unfair and kills prepots and other tactics for no real counter play.

If the goal is them lingering to disrupt a pack a bit more, that’s understandable, but if they are the last thing to die, combat should end immediately.

I notice the bolster too, which is going to be challenging as well, and I assume that’s part of why you are testing this affix set now, as it likely will be the hardest combination with Beguiling.

Is that how it worked in season 1 as well? Just want to make sure its intended.

Either way, obligatory reminder that there needs to be an after-timer buff for these affixes to match Season 2, or some actually communicated reason for there no longer being one!
Hopefully this isn’t just going to be ignored, but I am optimistic that there is still more to come with this affix, as there are things datamined that aren’t present, and there are still no voice lines etc.


(Juulnel) #43

Just did Motherlode and its insane, there is an emissary in every pack of treash, void one in some packs is impossible to low.

I take infested over this any day of the week,

Also how do you expect pugs and casuals deal with this, people who does only +10 for a week. How they are going to deal with this affix ??? Zerg it down with like 100 deaths on a counter for all dungeon ?


#45

I thought when I first heard about this affix it was going to be 3 lieutenant type mobs placed in specific locations across all dungeons that groups would have to kill before completing the dungeon…

Instead it is just infested 2.0, but even more obnoxious. What the hell Blizzard.

The fact that there are so many of these dumb mobs is absolutely ridiculous, and the fact that they can be skipped even more so.

If you thought rogues were meta before…people are going to be running triple rogue to just avoid this affix.

I know the 1 shadow guy has truesight, but guess what? Rogues can drag the pack to the side, and shadowstep / vanish it while the rest of the group runs by.

If this affix goes live as is it will end up being a season that revolves around skipping and not dealing with these incredibly obnoxious and restrictive mobs.

We did the season of pulling slow and restricting pulls (infested), it was largely met with negative feedback. I can only speak for myself, but it was not fun.

We did the season of big AoE and more group freedom for how we wanted to pull (reaping). For me, this was fun.

I assumed when I first read about beguiling it would be the “Single Target” affix, with 3 big lieutenants we had to strategically deal with, figuring out what trash was safe to pull with said mobs and giving classes with better single target / priority target DPS their moment to shine in M+.

Instead it turns out it’s just infested 2.0 and will boil down to, “how many of these complete cancer packs can your group skip?”

I am extremely disappointed in the design direction and lack of foresight.


#46

I pretty much agree with you, but adding on to it.

If you look at the placement of some of these emissarries in the dungeons, you will find that they put them in the packs people always do and not so much the packs people skip.(Atleast in this one rotation of emissaries, who knows the others) You will not skip these emissarries to do trash thats practically impossible, but others i agree with force rogues even more so.

For example in Temple (which already requires 2 shrouds to get 100%— good dungeon design BTW) they put the aqua emissary (immune to interupts to all mobs around it) to the double nimbus (if you dont interupt you die) and stormcaller pack after 2nd boss. So with this in mind, blizzard is forcing a skip during this pack because i see no way of doing this pack without spending 3 minutes killing the nimbus+stormcaller and having the aqua emissary CCd and then killing it afterwards. (so f-ing tedious)

In atal dazar, they put the emissaries in packs you pretty much always do, theyre just making them cancer for the sake of cancer. Like putting an emissary up the right ramp with the solo honor guard and stalker. Or putting the knockback emissary next to the first pack of saurids you encounter once you defeat Rezan. They are purposely making crap cancer for the sake of cancer, rogue shroud can’t nullify the required % for a dungeon.

Even with those examples listed, One dungeon that now requires rogue more than it ever did before and thats Motherlode. I’m not sure what sadistic ape had this idea, but they put the aqua emissary in every pack of vendor at the start of the dungeon. So now its either you shroud the start or you deplete the key instantly, terrific player choice!

I agree with your point on the Reaping affix, player oriented pathing is so much more fun espeically when your group can manage big boi pulls and then timing big boi pulls with reap adds, or reap adds with mechanically easier bosses (non-eudora freehold 2nd boss). This affix, and much like infested in season 1, is taking it away for the sake of “Challenge”. Except the “challenge” isn’t actually a challenge, because no one in their right mind thinks LOSing every 8 seconds, or CCing the aqua mob, or having the druid healer moonfire the reflect add to Egypt is hard. No one. Its just so tedious and unfun, imagine week to week, you cannot do the same big pull because this one week there happens to be an emissary there but the previous week there wasn’t. Or just one particular pack of the mobs you normally have to do in the dungeon, is just one week more annoying because they put a shadow mob in it and you have to LOS peak it down while dealing with affix influenced mobs ( explosive + shadow mob has proven to be actual aids) Its a lot of fun isn’t it?

You saw this in the infested rotation of Freehold. The coveted 9 mob pull at the start wasn’t doable for 2/3 infested rotations because they put 2 infested mobs in the starting packs. However, 1 infested rotation literally had no infested in it, so you got to actually enjoy the game and pull the 9 mobs and burn it down.

This affix is not going to be good for the longevity of the game.