FEEDBACK: Mythic Keystone Dungeons

To add to Ttvtettles post: most of the dungeons should have check points after every boss. There are some exceptions, if the layout is similar to Freehold, Ataldazar or Junkyard you can get away with no or few checkpoints because starting position is so close to everything. However, linear dungeons where you mostly go in a straight line trash -> bosh1 -> trash -> boss2 -> trash -> boss3 and so on, should have check point after every boss.

I believe, that if Kings Rest and Shrine had check points after every boss, those two dungeons would have had much higher success rate. I believe as well that if you would take away checkpoints from dungeons like Siege or Motherlode or Tol Dagor, these dungeons would be significantly worse.

16 Likes

To add to both Lenisxp and Ttvtettles, in addition to long runs back from wipes being un-fun due to losing the pacing and flow of your run, excessively long run backs are something of an undue punishment, as wiping is already inherently punishing.

If you lose any party members on a fight (boss or trash), you’re already losing the 5 second penalty on your timer and you’re losing their dps, and possibly committing a battle res at that point – so having the very long run back in a dungeon like Shrine of the Storm or Kings Rest feels like a slap in the face where the party is double punished versus a more forgiving checkpointed dungeon like Freehold or The Motherlode, or a dungeon that works without checkpoints like Atal’Dazar.

10 Likes

Having no checkpoints causes a much worse feeling when wiping. We already don’t want to wipe, but having a 1-3 minute run back turns a key which we would have attempted to time into a key we’re leaving.

7 Likes

I did some 13-15 dungeons. Everything seemed fine scaling wise. The ghuunie looking boss was hard and I don’t quite understand his mechanics. Seems too hectic and not telegraphed well compared to boss fights in BFA dungeons.

Please consider adding more check points. Motherload is such a good dungeon with check points. We need more dungeons with checkpoints at everyboss.

5 Likes

The one important thing that needs to be said is that, dungeon covenant bonus needs to be turned off in M+. It seems it is there to incentivize bringing certain covenants in regardless of the class to get around the “top covenant for X class, since this covenant gets bonus” but that is not how it will go down. please turn it off in M+

4 Likes

With the latest update to the Shadowlands Beta, we’re now testing:

  • All eight Mythic Keystone Dungeons
  • Changes to existing affixes
  • The new Seasonal Affix: Prideful
    • “Players overflow with pride as they defeat non-boss enemies, eventually forming a Manifestation of Pride. Defeating this Manifestation greatly empowers players.”

Players on the Torghast Beta realm can speak with the Keystone Vendor in Oribos to acquire test Keystones for all available dungeons and affixes.

We’ve updated a number of existing affixes, with the goal of making them better fit with Shadowlands dungeons and adding more opportunities for class utility to shine.

  • Bursting
    • Now a Magic effect that can be dispelled.
    • Damage is now a flat amount that scales with keystone level, rather than a % of players’ maximum health.
      • Developers’ notes: While % damage made this affix feel very consistent, it also led to an odd interaction where having more Stamina felt like a penalty instead of a bonus.
    • Volcanic
      • Damage is now a flat amount that scales with keystone level, rather than a % of players’ maximum health.
      • Added functionality: Players hit are now knocked high into the air.
        • Developers’ notes: As responsibility for this affix is often placed Healers, it felt appropriate to shift its emphasis from damage to disruption.
    • Sanguine
      • Duration reduced to 20 seconds (was 60 seconds)
        • Developers’ notes: While players have many options to deal with Sanguine, we recognize that it can feel rough in dungeons with many tight corridors. Reducing the duration of Sanguine pools should make their placement feel less restrictive in those dungeons (especially the aptly-named Sanguine Depths :blush:).
    • Grievous
      • Damage is now a flat amount that scales with keystone level, rather than a % of players’ maximum health.
      • Added Functionality: Non-periodic heals now remove 1 application of Grievous Wound.
        • Developers’ notes: This allows healers to more reliably triage the effect while dealing with heavy group damage, and adds more texture to the choice between fast and efficient heals.
    • Explosive
      • Now appear slightly farther away from enemies that summon them.
        • Developers’ notes: The goal here is to make Explosives easier to see and target, as they’re less likely to be directly on top of other enemies.
5 Likes

Ran a +10 Mists w/ just Prideful active. I liked the affix, especially the benefit that you could kind of time when you spawned it to have it active going into a boss. Not sure if that is just how the trash in Mists is planned, but we did that for all 3 bosses, with only having to skip one pack prior to the 1st boss.

Bolstering is not a fun affix also. Maybe reducing the bolster to 5% or only increasing damage and not hp would make it a much more fun affix.

Explosive would be a fine affix if 1. It could always be one shot by most spells, 2. The spawn rate was a little bit lower and 3. Their radius was a bit bigger so tanks could kill em without having to move around mobs to reach them and avoid getting hit on the back when they spawn further away.

2 Likes

For testing everyone is scaled to 215 ilvl gear, which I almost sure is Mythic raid gear.

  • Scaling with keystone level
    If the intent is to stop people from doing high keystone levels (i.e. how people are doing +30 keys on live) then the intent would be a success. If that is the intent however then I gotta say that’s terrible, because it’s punishing players from wanting to do higher and harder content. I love being able to push high keys. I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, not a large margin of players like doing keys above +20 right now, but I do. I love testing my skills in an extremely difficult environment. An environment I can really only find in really high keys. However with these changes of scaling with keystone levels, means that higher keys will just be impossible if these affixes are on that week. By impossible I mean, good luck getting your weekly +15, let alone a +10. Did a +10 Halls of Atonement with bursting to try it out, whether it’s just overtuned or not, I can’t tell but scaling with keystone levels sounds absurd. The tooltip on bursting right now isn’t scaling with keystone level so all it says is each stack of bursting applied is 14% of max hp. That alone is WAY too high. I’m not sure if that is the base for bursting or set to +10 levels. But there are packs of 5 mobs in every dungeon in Shadowlands. Some of these packs die in a few hits from geared players. So it’s easy for bursting to hit 5 stacks. Even at 3 stacks which is what most packs are it still was ticking for large amounts of our health, in a +10 no less! (We were dying to 2 stacks and normal uninteruptable aoe, in 215 gear) So imagine getting 3 stacks in your +15. It becomes a weekly no leavers at that point. Just the idea of adding this modifier to affixes baffles me. Keystones do not scale linearly, they are exponential. I don’t want an affix to define whether I can do a key or not. I want my skills in the dungeon to be the factor. I want to fight the mobs in the dungeon, not the affix.
    A solution to this would be to lower the base of the affix that scales with keystone level, but that would make the level that its introduced at extremely too easy. I think the best way all around is to have these affixes set as xx% hp over xx seconds.

  • Prideful
    This affix is fun, I absolutely love it and the group I was running with loved it too. Phenomenal affix. It’s interactive and you can plan when you get the buff because the affix occurs every 20%, so you can time the buff for a boss, or a big pull. It’s a fun affix because it’s engaging, difficult, and rewarding.

  • Bursting and Grievous
    The changes to bursting and grievous from a healer perspective are great. Being able to dispel bursting, and heal off stacks of grievous are great changes. The changes to these affixes scaling with keystone level however… see above.

  • Volcanic
    This one scales with keystone levels also which I am against, but the changes of knocking you up and a little damage instead of just damage is nice. However I think the damage portion of it is not needed as the knock up is enough to enrage a player to move out of the volcanic next time.

  • Explosive
    This was a questionable change. From a melee perspective, it’s annoying that they are farther away. They are now out of melee range so melee has to run to them now, and then by the time they get to it it’s already dead cause the ranged player who said “I’m not gonna touch explosives, have fun melee” hit the explosive. Only reason I’m saying that is because most casters say that before an explosive key because they explode before they can even target and cast a spell. So it inherently falls on the melee to handle explosives.
    I for one don’t care for explosive as an affix in general as it takes too much concentration away from the dungeon and the rotation to make keystones fun. No one likes to hit explosive with their big damage button because it’s the only button up at the time that can kill the explosive before it goes off and wipes the group. Especially when there are packs of 5+ targets in a pull (looking at you final hallways in Sanguine Depths) and 5 explosives pop up at once and not everyone can hit them all because they are further than melee ranged, because they are also dodging mechanics of the dungeon.
    If explosive stays in the game, I think they need to spawn less, or have a longer cast time. For example, only 1 explosive can spawn every 5 seconds or so, or all explosives have an 8-10 second cast time. That way you can still dodge mechanics and use a smaller damage button to kill it. Even lets casters get a cast off. :smile:

  • Sanguine
    This change is beautiful. Love it. 10/10. Now those cramped spaces aren’t so cramped anymore, but you still have to deal with the affix itself. Good change.

3 Likes

Prideful is cool as hell. Credit where credit is due, thank you for listening and introducing Kiss/Curse affixes.

1 Like

Summary for Prideful

  • Overall, low complexity, high depth. Fantastic design.

Specific Feedback

  1. Due to the way Belligerent Boast spawns, the “correct move” is to permanently stack and thus no one has to move as the missiles spawn around the player.
    1a. This is a lot due to Belligerent Boast doing so much damage if a player is hit (and the fact that it allows it), compared a basically non-existent stun. Getting hit by Boast is basically a death sentence with the pulsing AoE, and it almost feels like Boast should be more about the disruption from the stun than a flat out kill. That being said, Boast is well telegraphed and it is easy to dodge when you can see it.
    1b. Unsure exactly how, but you can stun yourself with your own Boast. Needs more testing to figure out how it works.
    1c. Just like other ground spells in the Necrotic Wake Necropolis, Boast does not fire any missiles. This is a Necrotic Wake Necropolis thing though.
  2. The Manifestation of Pride not being targetable during its spawning animation means it will get off one “random” melee before a guaranteed taunt can land. Please let it be targetable during the spawning animation, so taunts can land a taunt the second it lands.
  3. The Manifestation of Pride is skippable. You’re making a tradeoff here of losing the damage buff which obviously is a choice. As keys start to get higher and higher, it starts to become not really a choice. You have to pump increasing amounts of damage and healing into the Manifestation of Pride, and the Manifestation of Pride starts to require more and more cooldowns that a 30% damage buff isn’t worth the tradeoff. You’re still probably going to see people skipping it (if possible) using the Theatre of Pain teleporters, Spires of Ascension angels, Night Elf meld. If this is not intended, the Manifestation of Pride probably needs to snap or have a global aggro radius.

Will write dungeon feedback stuff later, since I have a lot of thoughts.

Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/XwqPjm3zLbpJVnBQ

2 Likes

Make a 5/5 Pride killed requirement for dungeons with the Prideful Affix. Similar to 100% trash and 100% bosses killed for completion.

1 Like

Just finished my first +10 on time while doing all the new affixes at the same time. and my suggestions would be:

  1. Spiteful shouldnt proc from little adds, just like there are some adds that dont spawn explosive or bolster or even burst.

  2. The procs from storming seemed a little overwhealming in small areas since it procs a lot from little amount of adds. making it almost impossible to manage some add packs in small rooms. and i think small adds where spawning or increasing the spawn rate for this aswell. maybe lower it.

So, I just want to throw in my 2c of feedback but I also want to preface it by saying that I have not personally tested M+ on the Beta. I am saying this as someone who is not color blind and as someone who has no major vision problems.

I am really not a fan of how Storming looks, visually, on the Beta right now after having seen it in action in both screenshots and video footage. It looks to be pretty much a copy paste of the tornado’s in the Tidesage Council encounter of Shrine of the Storm. Which, mechanically is fine, but for me personally I have always struggled to see those tornado’s in the heat of action.

Visually, the color and transparency in the heat of things makes them somewhat hard to spot and paired with the fact that they are so cylindrical it kinda messes with my depth perception a bit.

I think it would be really helpful if the base of the tornado’s had a much clearer visual effect on the ground itself. Maybe a lightning circle of some kind, that would fit the “Storming” theme, yeah? Just something to make it stand out more.

The nice thing about Affixes like Volcanic, Quaking, Explosive, etc was that they all have very clear visuals you can’t miss. Even the new affix, Inspiring has a very strong visual that makes the creatures stand out (Kinda reminds me of a D2 Paladin Aura haha)

I really think it would be nice, if this is going to be an Affix we have the entirety of Shadowlands if not longer, if the visual could be made a bit clearer and stronger. I think the mechanics of Storming will freshen things up but I really believe that, for me, the visuals are going to make the mechanic more frustrating than anything when you also throw in player spell effects and enemy spell effects. I really think that Storming would benefit from a stronger visual, at least at the base/ground point, of the Tornado.

7 Likes

Greetings and thank you for all your help testing Mythic+ so far! We wanted to share details on some affix updates in this week’s Beta build:

  • The following affixes are taking a break for Shadowlands Season 1. They may return in the future!
    • Teeming
    • Skittish
  • The following new affixes can appear starting at Keystone Level 4.
    • Spiteful
      • “Fiends rise from the corpses of non-boss enemies and pursue random players.”
    • Inspiring
      • “Some non-boss enemies have an inspiring presence that strengthens their allies.”
  • The following new affixes can appear starting at Keystone Level 7.
    • Storming
      • “While in combat, enemies periodically summon damaging whirlwinds.”
  • On the Torghast (Max Level) realm, the Keystone Vendor has been updated to offer these new affixes for testing.

We look forward to hearing about your experiences with these new affixes!

why is necrotic still in the rotation?

Necrotic really only affects tanks which already is the least represented role in wow. Necrotic punishes tanks for just being tanks. Overflowing was an old affix that was removed for only affecting healers.

Necrotic is similar cause it only affects tanks, sure some of the dps can acquire necrotic stacks but again because the tank messed up probably. Again, a tank affix. There’s no good counterplay to necrotic other than to run away and kite, but that negates the whole idea of being a tank which is to stay in and keep aggro. You can’t really keep aggro if you are running away, which has been reinforced even further by tanks losing all threat modifiers in Shadowlands. Tanks or healers have no effective counterplay that isn’t already counter intuitive to their playstyle. Therefore it’s just a badly designed affix that has no affect on the group besides the tank.

It’s in the same vein as skittish and I’m glad skittish and teeming are gone but Necrotic also needs to go.

8 Likes

Crazy, nice idea to keep things fresh! Looking forward to seeing the rotation of weekly affixes then.
Skittish I am not sure I would want to see gone, but very happy with Teeming going, even though I did like it personally.
Its just not fair to have the route change that significantly for a single affix.

Hopefully we can swap Necrotic, or just dump that one too, and then I will be extremely happy with the affixes!

3 Likes

I tested it for about 4 hours today, and have to agree. Its WAYYYY too hard to see whenever any mobs are actually near it.
It also spawns way too frequently and lasts way too long.
Even had some spawn AFTER we were out of combat, which surely is not right.

On big pulls, there was simply no counter to it. The tornados were everywhere and there was no way to move from them all, unlike with Volcanic.

The big issue visually is the base though.
You can see the top well enough, but the base is impossible to see with mobs overlaying it.

Find a way to make it more visually distinguished or rethink its movement patterns.

First step would be try to make it a Shadowlands theme?
Maybe a blue and white bastion themed tornado?
Or maybe a blood vampire theme for Revendreth?

This is how “Explosives” were handled, remember?
They were “fel explosives” and green at one point, for Legion no doubt.
Then they changed to standard explosives and red with BFA.

4 Likes

They could always take a color scheme similar to what the Death Elemental’s use.

As long as they do something to make the base very distinctive so its easier to understand just where it is because the length and movement of it can make collision feel very deceptive in terms of 3d depth. That’s my two copper at least.

Oh, ya just literally take that ghostly looking mesh and make that the tornado haha. Would be perfect!
My other idea was make it knock back mobs too to make it less important to be able to see it perfectly, but that would probably make the affix too easy.