This 100% is the best option. maybe balance out the mana numbers but i like it
The removal of the instant cast Vivify talent is pretty detrimental to fistweavers. My suggestion is to add a way to achieve the buff from our rotation that makes it so we know when we get it and can work around it. This would be to modify and add a combo system trigger to the current Teachings of the Monastery talent.
Teachings of the Monastery
When performing a combination of Tiger Palm, Blackout Kick and Rising Sun Kick your next Vivify will be instant cast.
Tiger Palm causes your next Blackout Kick to strike an additional time, stacking up to 3.
Blackout Kick has a 15% chance to reset the remaining cooldown on Rising Sun Kick.
I strongly disagree with the reasoning for the change, instant cast vivify does not devalue soothing mist as a cast. The only time you press soothing mist as a mistweaver is if you need to cast 3 or more vivifies on someone getting trucked by damage/need to do big sustained healing on a player, are doing pvp or deciding to play the spec wrong. Instant vivify was a massive quality of life for situations where movement is heavy/lots of dodging(not having to worry you get chosen for mechanic or someone near you and having to stop your cast), to help min max on our renewing mist ramps, rewarding utility to save other player’s lifes and it is something we can choose not to talent in the cases where the instant casts aren’t really useful. I listed in a post on Sept 9 examples of situations where instant vivify is massive for mistweaver and it really isn’t that broken as a talent because you’re still in that global and it has an energy/mana cost so you can’t just spam it unless you want to destroy your resource economy. Also in the cases where the instant vivify is not that useful, you can choose to pick something else up instead of it so it would create a bit of choice.
With this change the big issues are that you can’t control when you want to use your buff and can’t choose when to bank your charges for certain portions of the fight you want to use them for. My personal favorite is solution 2 because it would give soomers something which is the stated goal for mistweaver :^)
- Revert the change.
- Revert the change and make that node a choice node to enhance soothing mist by increasing the channel time and keeping the same spell power per tick as current soothing mist OR shortening the channel time while condensing the same amount of spell power overall. For example, if you double the channel time, it would heal twice the amount of current soothing mist.
- Make the talent only consume the buff when you cast vivify while moving and add 6 stacks max so you can choose when to spend them.
- Make the talent reduce the cast time of vivify by half.
- Make it a button cooldown so you can choose when you have instant vivify for x seconds
With the understanding that these are just Feelings and not Informed Game Dev Takes:
Instant Vivify, as mentioned in the notes, did mean we could get away with using fewer buttons. For me this was definitely a good thing, because for the first time I could move the kicks & punches to the “frequently used” position, while still being able to keep a whole bunch of healing buttons in reach. The main reason I have been playing caster is because I’m on a normal keyboard setup and haven’t found a way to include the damage buttons while having comfortable keybinds (wrists achy).
This meant I was excited to actually switch to fistweaving, to get to try faeline, and healing through damage. A big part of the appeal was also: if I’m in a melee group currently, when we have to move I have to do an odd sort of stutterstep for the 1.5 second casts. Instant vivifies meant that simply being in that group felt less fraught
In summary: having to use fewer buttons, and healing on the move feeling a bit more responsive, made me more likely to try a new playstyle. I’m not necessarily saying “simply put it back”, just wanted to give some feedback on the reasons why it was an appealing thing to me personally
Try it anyway. Its very fun when you get the hang of keeping your renewing mists out. Shadowlands was when I first started playing the monk and fistweaving in progression. Its a blast. It is a blast in keys too. On Beta it’s even better even with this change.
Okay so I did some testing with the changes to white tiger statue, and just using single target because its easier, in a 30 second period doing my maximum dps as a mistweaver (this being 100% uptime on statue and being its best case scenario) it is legitimately doing 10% of my dps or just over it.
Please revise the severity of the nerfs because this doesn’t feel like a damage cooldown anymore, you have clipped his claws a bit too hard for slightly over performing.
The talent Drinking Horn Cover makes no sense in it’s current placement.
As windwalker if I select Meridian Strikes, it opens the choice of DHC, but there is no requirement to select Storm, Earth, and Fire prior to this. Therefore it’s a wasted talent slot that is directly in the path of us selecting Invoke Xuen.
It would make more sense if Meridian strikes went directly into Invoke Xuen and the Drinking Horn Cover was independent of this selection while being still connected to Storm earth and fire.
The talent Spiritual focus is also directly linked to Storm earth fire, but there is no requirement to select it prior to getting spiritual focus.
It appears that a lot of talents are linked to Storm Earth Fire being almost required to get the full effect, this feels that maybe it should be baseline while adding celerity as a choice node with something else. I think that, or there should be a re-organization so that the talents that are directly effected and benefit from Storm Earth Fire are near that node.
As it stands I can take aroudn 5 talents for a move that isn’t even required to select before getting those talents
The selection of roll and the talent celerity do not stack. we’re limited to only 2 stacks of roll, even though the talents would lead us to believe we should get 3 from this combination.
So this could be just me but do any other Brewmasters feel like their stagger isn’t working correctly in pvp? It really feels like stagger is only absorbing about 10% of the actual damage taken. Is there any site or post that tells how EXACTLY how stagger works numerically? Thanks in advance!
Just in case Blizzard hasn’t caught wind of the general monk response yet:
MAKE VIVIFY INSTANT CAST
I think the nerfs are justified. The raw power it had compared to other statues removed any possible niche for them but in the end if you did have to take them over white tiger you’d be massively nerfing yourself which isn’t a fun feeling either. You could argue the optimal solution is to buff the other statues but how do you effectively do that without making them overpowered? You could also argue that its possible to get 2 statues baseline but what are you having to give up in the rest of the class tree to get them? It feels like the capstone talents for monk were never designed to be truly strong but rather nice modifiers for certain situations?
Want a little more damage on fights that are fairly static on movement for sizeable periods of time? White tiger
Need aoe taunt? Ox
Need passive ST heal? Jade
While you might argue that some of these talents are meh or
when would x y z ever us a b c you can always find a reason when you start looking for one.
Ox? Raid fights with adds or m+. Could either be for aoe taunt to bring mods to tank or general grouping before tank picks up
White tiger? Damage
Agreed. This talent was doing an absurd amount of damage in AoE, but the nerf was overkill.
Maybe buffing the damage but putting a soft cap it when it hits more than X targets? That way it will be somewhat useful in single target, while still shining in AoE situations.
And while we’re talking about the statues, the Ox and Jade Serpent statues could get some love as well, like reworking the healer one into a small healing cooldown (so WW/BrM could use them), or at least providing the Leech/Avoidance/Speed auras (so you can drop them wherever the range stack in a fight).
All you need to sacrifice is one point on the Leech/Avoidance talents and you get a second statue.
Right now, WW/BrM will never pick the Jade Serpent one, while the Ox statue is really situational (and potentially dangerous to MW/WW, since the aggro will go to the monk if the statue dies).
Buffing the Jade Serpent/Ox statues is necessary in my opinion.
Some more feedback from a higher end MW that focuses primarily on Mythic Raiding.
Vivify change : I understand why this was changed, it needed to be nerfed but maybe changing it to also proc a instant vivify charge if you are fistweaving could be a good alternative since it would promote the fistweaving playstyle without the clunky hardcasting in between.
Buff auras : They are incredible, useful and very short range. Even a 5-10 yard increase would dramatically improve it, as it stands, fights where melee have to stand apart from each other would make putting buff on others very awkward if not impossible.
Summon White Tiger Statue : Was incredibly broken in its original implementation, now it is very undertuned. If the damage was raised and capped so it couldn’t scale off large pulls, it would be in a much better spot and be a viable pick for st and aoe.
Fortifying brew : In its current spot and current cooldown, it seems like a very bad choice and a waste of points to grab, for tanks it might be interesting but its just too long a cd and too many points wasted that could of been used in much better spots.
Profound rebuttal: It feels wierd and a waste of a talent to take this as a requirement to get the leech aura. Many MW will just not use expel harm much if at all. To make expel harm truly good, you need to also get the Strength of Spirit under fort brew and Vigorous Expulsion under soothing mist. Its spread all across the tree in such a way that it causes more harm than good to take all of them. It just doesn’t feel good to pick something that you know you wont use.
Faeline Stomp : An amazingly fun ability for mw with a decent implementation. My only complaint is that the faeline aura should stick with you for a few seconds if you need to dodge out of it or a puddle/mechanic spawns under the faeline. It can make it incredibly awkward or just outright block you from using it for rest of duration if you get unlucky enough. Keeping the aura up for a bit after leaving it, lets you keep dpsing in the hope you get a proc to reset a faeline elsewhere making it more based on skill if you can dodge and fish the reset as you dodge.
Bonedust Brew : With the current selection of choices, its incredibly hard to justify going down this route to get all points for full unlock. It doesn’t feel as impactful as other end talents, it costs a lot for what it provides and what it provides feels underwhelming. I fully believe this is easily fixable by tuning the abilities to feel more impactful or even adding a secondary effect in to make it more attractive to take. This ability is by no means bad, its just not as good as other choices.
Life Cocoon Talents : You need 4 talent points to both unlock life cocoon and to make it reach its full potential. It’s full potential is insane but the cost to just buff your two minute external is extreme. There is not many if any other classes that need to invest so many points just to buff up one singular external defensive ability. It’s just not worth it. You do need to pick 1 or 2 of the abilities to go around to the better choices below it, but its impossible to justify all 4 points in it for any pve scenario.
Overall, the tree is in a brilliant spot compared to most other specs and classes. There is some minor and some potentially major complaints to be made, but even if not much changes. Blizzard and the class tree designer(s) have done an incredible job of bringing mw up to a competitive spot.
Thank you to everyone that read all of this and have a wonderful day!
(edited to account for a mistake)
Expel Harm is a really good Chi generator for WW, to the point it’s pressed on cooldown. I’d say they press it even more than BrM.
There’s some really good stuff for Brew currently, but it feels like apart from Diffuse there’s not a whole lot that is being gained, especially in comparison to tanks like BDK and Warrior.
• Having to spec into Purifying Brew Rank 2 and Celestial Brew Rank 2, feels pretty underwhelming. I understand that there’s an element of having to spend points early on for baseline aspects of your kit but we’re already speccing into the first charge of each in the tree.
• There’s definitely room to move talents such as High Tolerance or Training of Niuzao up to fill those slots early on, especially seeing as how much high tolerance has been nerfed recently, so it wouldn’t feel too out of place higher in the tree.
• With the transfer of Strength of Spirit from the Brew tree to the class tree, it would be nice to see something that actually competes with Gai Piln’s on that choice node. One idea I’ve heard tossed around was placing the 4 piece: Keg of the Heavens in that slot. This could be a genuinely interesting choice between a more ST v AoE focused healing build. If it proved to be too dominant, you could quite easily remove the 50% KS damage amp from the tier and it would still be competitive.
• Charred Passions is a great talent but it feels a bit sad to be pushing SCK on ST when Face Palm has come back (in a somewhat nerfed version, granted) as such, it would be amazing to see ChP extend to tiger palm damage too.
Overall: the brew tree is soooooo close to being amazing. There is a lot of potential for some really interesting and competitive talents, and these changes could go a long way to making it the best it can be. Thanks
Instant vivify is mainly an issue in PVP where an instant spammable heal is overpowered, it wasn’t an issue in PvE in MoP¨when uplift was instant cast.
I would like to convert this node into a choice Node for several reasons:
- differenciate the behavior between a caster and fistweaving build
- More benefits for casting Soothing mist
- take care of the pvp issue
Every 4 sec you channel Soothing Mist, get 1 charge of instant vivify , max 3 charges
- Unisson proc 1 charge every 4sec too
- Jade Serpent Statue proc 1 charge every 8 sec
Rising sun kick grant 1 charge of instant vivify, max 1 charges
So basically in PvP if you want an instant vivify, you either take a risk and go to melee to use RSK or cast/instant cancel to get an instant every 8 sec via JSS. If you want more you can be interrupted while casting Soothing Mist
On top of that, it would be be nice to add a small stackable healing buff to the people you heal with Soothing Mist, like 1% every second up to 10% for a certain duration, as it would encourage you to use Soothing mist more, make a good synergie with unisson and JSS
Yeah just edited to fix it, wasn’t really thinking of WW at all to be honest since raid representation is more skewed towards Brm and MW.
I don’t hate this. Minus the max 1 charges.
TFT → RSK with Focused Thunder would make either of the talents feel slightly wasted. Make max charges 2 or 3 and you’re onto something.
Another idea in my quest to make Soothing Mist better.
At the moment, the mastery proc is random during the channel making that boost not reliable.
What if, if you press Soothing Mist while already channeling it, you get a proc of mastery ( with an adequate of aditionnal mana used for a ST efficient heal) ?
We would get more value from mastery and an efficient ST heal that we really need.
My thoughts at the moment coming from a BrM/WW higher end player. I also like MW but am much less familiar with it. These notes are focused mainly on WW.
- Fortifying Brew: The position of this is still awkward after the changes. Disable and Paralysis are both extremely niche (read: barely ever used) in raids with Paralysis being used slightly more in M+. Having to spend talent points here to reach a valuable defensive feels bad.
- Chi Wave/Chi Burst: A very iconic ability that is unfortunately locked behind a long chain of talents so that it requires heavy investment to reach. I think the left side of the talent tree could benefit from a few more connections allowing for more flexibility.
- Roll: The position of the second charge of roll, as stated many times above is still in a very awkward spot. Soothing Mist is an entirely useless spell for WW and BrM, they will never cast it and it feels horrible pathing through this ability to reach Roll.
Statues: Overall the capstones of the class tree feel very underwhelming and it feels like the real power of the class tree lies in the middle rather than the bottom.
- Jade Serpent Statue is unlikely to be taken by any spec. It is simply way too weak (I know this depends on tuning) and requires too much micro management. This could benefit from the duration of Soothing Mist being buffed to something much longer (> 20 seconds) but ultimately, I’d prefer a more utility based ability.
- White Tiger Statue is extremely boring and does not fit the class fantasy of WW (or the other specs) at all. No one wants to place a 30 second dot on enemies that they can simply run out of. I don’t understand the people asking for this ability to be buffed. I would rather this ability be nerfed into the ground to the point where it’s better not to spec into it. I don’t want this ability in my rotation at all. As it stands (since it provides damage) it’s likely that 90+% of players will take it. I feel this spell would benefit greatly from a redesign, again into something more utility focused than damage. There have been plenty of suggestions as to what that could be (Windrush / melee damage conduit for attacking mobs from range, etc.).
- Black Ox Statue is the least egregious of the 3 statues but is still too niche for MW or WW to use properly unless there are cases like Council of Blood where mobs simply don’t attack the statue and I don’t think that sort of cheese is a good reason to have players pick this talent. I feel there should be a stronger case for it. No suggestions for how this could be done atm.
The bugfixes are greatly appreciated and WW feels much better on beta. TY.
- Rushing Jade Wind: This needs to be rethought. Even if this ability did competitive damage, it is not a fun ability to press. It doesn’t interact with the rest of the WW toolkit at all.
- Jade Ignition: I’m a fan of this ability (it needs a buff in dmg) but feel it’s positioning above SoTW is not great considering these abilities are largely unrelated and used for different damage profiles. Perhaps replace Inner Peace with Jade Ignition and putting something else above SoTW.
- Bonedust Brew / Faeline Stomp: I’m quite sad to see BDB returning. It wasn’t very liked in SL. I would much rather have seen Faeline Stomp become the AOE centric ability on the left side of the tree (perhaps with some changes so it doesn’t have such a strict positioning requirement ) and Weapons of Order return as the ST centric ability on the right side of the tree or even to replace Serenity. There’s a lot that can be done with these abilities at the bottom of the tree and a lot of room for improvement.
- There are still quite a lot of bugs in the tree that make it difficult to test some builds:
- Almost all of the Touch of Death talents don’t work at all
- Calculated Strikes has just gone missing from the tree?
- Drinking Horn Cover doesn’t work
- And more but I’ll leave that to the in-game reports.
Was suggested earlier to make it “after a RSK” and stack up to 3, since it has so many resets, capping at 1 stack would feel bad. But RSK by default has a 10s CD, so it aligns with their thinking of “every 10s,” gives the player more agency, and allows the melee style (and the non-atotm) to weave in and out better.
Good gameplay, better than “wait 10s,” for sure.