Feedback: Monks

I think the white tiger statue needs to be seriously buffed to make it worth a 2min CD and it should really be given way more health. Currently in PvP its way easier to kill than totems and that makes it pretty useless for something that should be a cooldown for damage

5 Likes

Basic Monk Talent Tree:

Fast Feet, Fatal Touch, Tiger Leg Sweep, Vivify, and Ferocity of Zuen has a 2 point option , problem is it should be 1 point instead of two as the second point has absolutely no upgrade, it shows the same exact thing as the first point gives, no difference, this needs to be changed to one point. Detox and Expel Harm are already base line and should not be in the talent tree as it offers the same exact thing as the base line ones. From what I’m seeing in the Basic monk talent tree is there are a lot of 2 point options for absolutely no upgrade and/or improvement to that particular talent, this feels very wasteful of points and should be changed to 1 point. The overall design of the Base Monk talent tree is mostly wrong and feels rushed and not well thought out.

Windwalker Talent Tree:

Touch of the Tiger, Flashing Fists, Crane Vortex, and Rising Star has a 2 point option but offers no upgrade, this needs to be changed to 1 point. This tree feels wrong in that some of the 2 point requirement to get to the next level of talents offers no upgrade and is therefore wasted points for no upgrades. Like the Basic Monk Tree, it feels rushed and not well thought out. All the non upgrade 2 point talents needs to be changed to 1 point.

Mistweaver Talent Tree:

Revival/Restoral: Not sure what to think about this one as they offer the same exact thing, I’m thinking Revival should be revive back to life but it just does the same healing/remove stuff that restoral does. Until there is clarification on this one, will just bypass all together. Where is the Jade Statue, I am very not happy about not having it. While some players might no use it, I do, especially when questing and such. Jade Statue, for me, is the difference between life and death when taking extremely heavy damage. Depending on how my monk plays, could also be a no go and sit this character on the sidelines like other classes that I’ve decided to put on the sidelines through Dragonblight because they are not in a good place.
Never mind about the Jade Statue, found it where it doesn’t belong, its on the basic monk talent tree instead of the “healer” side, go figure, one would think that the statues thats on the basic talent tree should be placed on the prospective spec side. Doesn’t make any sense to put them where they are instead of where they should be. Have no access to it because of all the wasted points, have to place points to get to it and don’t have enough. If it is to stay in the basic talent tree then it needs to be moved up and not at the very bottom and/or linked to something useless.

Overall, the monk talent trees are not in a very good place and cost talent points on useless talents to try to get to decent ones, but run out before being able to get to them. Very rushed and half hazard talent trees.

The way I view it is I don't have to worry about Revival dispelling some magic debuff in raid since we can’t depend on their blacklist 100% of the time. Not to mention the while stunned makes me think its a big pvp talent

4 Likes

General tree feedback

Soothing Mist being on top doesn’t make sense, mainly because the extra Roll charge depends on it.

Heavy Air is by far the most useless skill out of all the talent trees. I think in her place should come the Transcendence.

Where Transcendence is now puts the Ring of Peace, and where the Ring of Peace is, an upgrade causing the ring to create a clearing area removing any spells/debuffs/puddles from the area, as well as debuffs and threat. Yes, removing threat would be somewhat of a debuff, but then we would have a disadvantage in using the ring that would counterbalance the benefits.

Close to Heart, Windwalking and Generous Pour shouldn’t be auras, they should be active buffs.

Feedback on Windwalker

In my opinion, the Windwalker talent tree is problematic. This is due to the fact that if what was expected was a separation of talents between AOE / Mixed / Single Target, however there are many talents that give you AOE skills, directly buff some AOE skills or turn single target skills into AOE (26 from what I could count) and few focusing on a single target (only 10 of them, where 3 are buffs for ToD). This seems unbalanced, and the fact that we’ll be relying on skills from the main talent tree to perform on single target (Fast Feet, ToD, Fatal Touch, Resonant Fists) just won’t unbalance the class in single-target fights because the options in the main tree talents are “easy” to choose in this scenario.

The three monk statues, regardless of which, should have much larger health pools in all scenarios, and the Jade Serpent and White Tiger statues should not pose a threat or be affected by AOE.

Spiritual Focus not beign dependent on the talent that it’s benefits makes no sense.

The entire tree region above Xuen should change too: theres some buffs to FoF that’s seems to not fit there, where you’re obliged to learn to call Xuen and improve it to learn Xuen’s Battlegear, Transfer of Power and Keerer’s Skyreach (one of the rare sinle-target focused talents).

But of all the feedback we gave and agreed on, the most important one, in my opinion, was ignored by Blizzard: the bottom-right of the tree, the removal of Night Fae talents in exchange for the same Kyrian talents that the Brewmaster has. Druids received Convoke in all specs because it’s the best pact skill (some would say indispensable), now why is it different with Monks? What it seems is that when choosing these talents, Blizzard put names inside a bag and drew lots, not that it chose the ones that would bring the best performance.

Feedback on Mistweaver

The changes to the talent tree focusing more on Night Fae skill usage is a big mistake and I’ll tell you why: PEOPLE MOVE. The chance of you releasing the stomp and the group having to get off it due to some mechanic is always great (from my point of view the only safe place to use it would be in Grimrail Depot). A Fistweaver’s playstyle is healing by moving, so what we need are abilities that go along with that move and Faerline Stomp is definitely not one of them. Kyrian or Venthyr skills would fit much better in this regard.

Feedback on Brewmaster

I don’t have much to say about the Brewmaster. Having the Exploding Keg back has been a dream since the beginning of the BFA and the kit in general is no different from what we’ve experienced before.

The nerf on the Ox Spheres was not something expected, and this will directly affect the monk’s sustainability since we have absolutely nothing else besides Zen Meditation and the base tree skill Diffuse Magic that helps us in mitigating magic damage.

3 Likes

Gonna go ahead and reafrim all the things ive said again about soothing mist being boring and pointless to spec into while still having insane energy cost on vivify while also being instant with multiple pointless 2 cost abilities for unbaked abilities being real unfun. Retail feels extensively smoother playing with all abilities intact which should not really feel better than a potentially new expansion with brand new talent trees

I think it seriously is a failure of design to unbake abilities just for the sake of trying to extended a talent tree and make us spend points for a thing we will never use two points later down the tree. Unbaking abilities should never be something that is said of class design.

I understabd this is alpha and things will change im basically just worried they will not be changed enough to make the class design behind monk trees feeling complete.

9 Likes

Hello weavers of mist.

We’d like to address few topics that have come up regarding the new Mistweaver Talent tree.

Tree Layout

In the Mistweaver tree, our intent is for players to make compelling decisions between powerful abilities, particularly with their final points, in order to decide on their build. We want players to feel engaged with pathing throughout this tree and have reasons to explore a variety of options regardless of their build type.

This may result in some ability placement feeling counterintuitive. The question “this spell has great synergy with this other spell, so why are they not placed next to each other?” can be answered: We want to maintain pathing tension, so that players feel engaged throughout the talent selection, as well as avoid certain talent combinations for balance purposes.

Rotational Clutter

Several pieces of the Monk and Mistweaver tree are adding options for active buttons on a short cooldown. Too many relatively low impact abilities on a short cooldown can lead to gameplay feeling rushed and overwhelming.

Zen Pulse has been the main offender in our eyes. In future builds, we’re looking at increasing the cooldown and effect of Zen Pulse to make it feel more impactful while reducing rotational clutter.

We will be keeping an eye on this problem moving forward with spells such as Refreshing Jade Wind and Faeline Stomp.

Mistweaving and Fistweaving

Our intent is for both builds to feel as though they have options and reasons to explore throughout the tree. The trick will be to find pathing that satisfies both builds without removing options or build diversity.

We were overall pleased with the first iteration of this tree but are still looking to make improvements. Players can expect a few nodes that may have felt like blockers to swap positions and additional connections to facilitate this in future builds.

Renewing Mist Synergies

Our intent is for spreading Renewing Mist to feel rewarding and powerful. We’re happy so far with how Misty Peaks, Rapid Diffusion, and the return of Dancing Mist have been received and we’re glad to see many players feeling much the same way. Our goal is to tune around these effects remaining engaging and synergistic.

Essence Font

The placement of some abilities, namely Essence Font, at the top of the tree has come off as alarming for some players. Since Essence Font is not an ability that sees universal use, why is it required to move past the first gate?

The intent for this placement is to sacrifice a small amount of choice early in the tree to maximize choice later in the tree. There are many different modifiers later in the tree that rely on Essence Font to function, and the layout of the tree overall would be heavily impacted if these needed to be packed into a small subsection.

A good example of the opposite of this placement is Life Cocoon-related talents in this tree. While players can expect the Life Cocoon talents to feel more optional with increased pathing being added in future builds, the overall placement of these nodes is reliant on stemming from Life Cocoon, due to it not being required to progress past the first gate.

Thank you all for your continued feedback!

20 Likes

When tuning is there any aim to make sure Essence Font stays relevant in a raiding situation? As it currently stands you can get to a scary amount of Renewing Mists very quickly.

Thank you for the communication :smiley:
Everything you said makes a lot of sense and is wonderful to hear

6 Likes

There was some very interesting Mistweaver Monk Artifact Weapon traits that’s could be improved and used on the skill tree.

The way that the actual MW skill tree is going are focusing too much on Soothing Mists and Essence Font.

As for Fistweaving, the way monks fistweave at WOD was the coolest way, the one that’s not that HOT-dependant nor HOT-buffer machine, but focused on Chi generation to burst healing with specific skills that should be added to the skill tree itself (Chi Explosion, for example).

With the actual dual-tree building Blizzard could focus on making monk healers focused on mid-term AOE healing sustain as Mistweaver or Fistweaver for Raid content or focused on single target / cleave healing for groups content.

1 Like

I love that we appear to have options for different builds.

I would like to see Soothing Mist useable while moving, either as part of the base spell or as a talent in the MW tree.

Personally I’m not a fan of the current version of Jade Serpent Statue and that it will be going forward into Dragonflight. The 8 sec channel duration requires a lot of micromanaging, which is not fun and kind of clunky.

If another class is given a battle res, consider monk (our overall group utility is kind of lacking). Suggestion: Spiritfire Brew, splash an ally with an invigorating brew returning them to consciousness and jump starting their HP/Mana.

Have more testing to do.

7 Likes

Hello!
It was great to see feedback for certain decisions that have been made for Mistweaver. With that said, I feel that there are still many pain points Mistweavers have that are not being addressed. Here are some:

  • Damage Reduction for Life Cocoon. It’s no secret that Life Cocoon is a bad cooldown and one of the only cooldowns that Mistweavers bring to the table. In PvE, it isn’t in the rotation for tanks and mostly used as a last resort for healers or players who don’t do mechanics. In PvP, it doesn’t last in RBGs and arena dampening makes it even worse. Giving Life Cocoon a talent or built in damage reduction would help Mistweaver so much.
  • Cancel Roll/Chi Torpedo. This was in the game for a very long time and it allowed Monks to cancel their Roll/Chi Torpedo at any moment. It was removed in Shadowlands and Monks are now forced to awkwardly jump and roll if they need to travel a short distance. With the addition of Kick/Slow being added to Mistweaver and how import mobility is for them, I think cancel roll should be reintroduced to the game. A good PvE example of this is the Painsmith fight. If I wanted to roll to the gap in order to avoid the spikes, I would have to jump and hope latency doesn’t affect the distance. If it does, then I would fall into the lava or get hit by spikes. If cancel roll was in the game, I wouldn’t have to worry about this and I could dodge the mechanic.
  • Soothing Mist while Moving. This is the main change I believe Mistweaver needs. We are suppose to be the most mobile healer in the game, but have to stand still every time we heal someone. Being able to move while channeling Soothing Mist would help relieve many of the issues we are running into now (avoiding CC, getting swapped to)
  • Mystic Touch. Mistweaver is a healing turret and can heal one target easily for the duration of an arena match. It’s because of this, that many of the top team compositions that Mistweaver queues are double caster (mage/lock, ele/affliction) and sometimes melee/caster (dh/boomy, warrior/ele). This allows us to heal one target, rather than having to heal two. Because of this playstyle change, Mystical Touch rarely gets value when playing with the double casters. Is there a chance that there could be a new talent for Mystic Touch? Similar to the Revival talent. One talent increases Physical damage, and the other increases Magical damage. This way, Mystic Touch gets value no matter what comp we are queueing into.
3 Likes

Today’s update includes:

  • General
    • Heavy Air – Moved to NYI, redesign coming soon.
    • Resonant Fists has been redesigned – Now simpler to activate and deals area of effect damage to nearby enemies.
    • Bounce Back – Now correctly triggers only on hits of 20% or more.
  • Mistweaver
    • Rearranged various talents and created new pathways and choices.
    • Zen Pulse – Cooldown increased to 30 seconds (was 15 seconds). Damage increased by 80% and healing increased by 50%.
    • Yu’lon’s Whisper – Healing reduced by 25%.
    • Spirit of the Crane – Adjusted mana refund to 0.45% (was 0.65%).
    • Misty Peaks – Enveloping Mists procs now last 2 seconds (was 3 seconds).
    • Enveloping Mist – Healing reduced by 20%.
    • Ancient Teachings of the Monastery – Healing reduced to 125% of damage done (was 200%).
    • Ancient Teachings of the Monastery healing increased by 60% in PvP combat.
      • Developers’ note: Mistweaver Monk’s damage capabilities have gone up by a significant amount due to the Dragonflight talent system. This adjustment to Ancient Teachings reflects that increased damage potential and is not intended as a large nerf compared to Mistweaver’s current Shadowlands experience with Ancient Teachings. It is likely that further adjustments are needed (for example, some damage going down and Ancient Teaching’s healing going back up), but this should get us in the ballpark for now.
    • Clouded Focus – Now increases the healing and reduces the mana cost of Enveloping Mist and Vivify by 15% (was 20%).
  • Windwalker
    • Multiple talents have been moved to allow better flow and decision-making throughout the tree.
    • Gale Burst has been removed.
    • Rushing Jade Wind – Damage increased by 33%.
    • Meridian Strikes – Cooldown reduction increased slightly.
    • Hit Scheme – Replaced with Hit Combo as intended.
    • Spiritual Focus – Now works with Serenity.
    • New Talent: Hardened Soles – Increases critical strike chance and critical strike damage of Blackout Kick.
2 Likes

Can you guys please stop trying to make hit combo happen :neutral_face:

6% damage increase for doing something you would already be doing. It just feels like you’re better off giving us that 6% overall damage and add in a better talent, or just remove it all together. I’m wondering what the goal is here by keeping it? Maybe I’m not seeing the vision for this talent that you guys have in mind.

The only thing I can think of is that you guys might be considering this talent almost like a reward? But for me personally, there’s just nothing rewarding about this talent. Its just a flat mastery increase to me, that I have to maintain. I just feel more can be done with this if it were to stay.

Edit: I just now noticed you guys seemed to have removed Combo Breaker. That to me would be a better option. (Unless of course I’m blind and its still there.)

16 Likes

Feedback for new build:

The talent moves are overall good and add to build variety but there are still some oddities, specifically Jade Ignition which seems to be in No Man’s Land purposefully blocking off Strike of the Windlord and Calculated Strikes located below Bonedust Brew.

Gale Burst being removed is good and makes sense but does call into question why it existed at all in the first place. The remaining Touch of Death talents seem somewhat out of place even though you can avoid them since Meridian Strikes is effectively useless in Single Target situations for 85% of the fight.

Rushing Jade Wind being buffed is alarming to me because it says that you are happy with the design of the spell when that is very much the lion’s share of the problem with the talent. Ideally the talent in some way interacts with our kit and isn’t just ‘another AoE button’ and not have the duration tied to the cooldown. I’d like to see it entirely reworked or scrapped and maybe bring Jade Ignition over in its place.

Hit Scheme being replaced with Hit Combo is an overall net negative and I’m not really sure anyone wanted to see it come back, the reasons why everyone dislikes have been said ad nauseam. Besides people disliking Hit Combo, I really was somewhat excited for Hit Scheme as it added a potential new funnel build in AoE that no longer can exist which makes me sad.

Spiritual Focus working with Serenity is good in theory but in practice since it wasn’t specifically changed to function like Drinking Horn Cover for Serenity (Works off Chi Spenders instead of Chi Spent) means that you don’t get any benefit from it during Serenity itself which seems like an oversight of design.

Hardened Soles seems like an odd addition to the tree as Windwalker does not have any crit scaling with Blackout Kick and therefore doesn’t really care if it crits more often or crits for more.

There are still many pain points I have with the tree but I’ll narrow it down to bullet points:

  • Dance of Chi-Ji still unchanged
  • Glory of the Dawn still not scaling with crit
  • Keefer’s Skyreach still being on the tree/not being able to better control when the effect occurs
  • Faeline Stomp being on the ‘single target’ side of the tree despite being an AoE ability, should be replaced with Weapons of Order
  • Serenity being unchanged
  • Teachings of the Monastery leading to a ‘proc fishing’ single target playstyle and not having the ability to acquire a 2nd charge of RSK anywhere on the tree to smooth the rotation out as a result
  • Fists of Fury being unchanged leading to it needing significant buffs to see use.

Overall I’m just not quite sure what the tree is trying to accomplish, the ideas seem scattered and there doesn’t seem to be a sound idea of how things will synergize together to lead to fun, different playstyles. Even now when you try to focus purely on single target you end up taking AoE talents which just seems really odd.

14 Likes

I’d like to request that Ring of Peace not be gated behind Transcendence. Outside of pvp and some niche pve scenarios Transcendence is a spell I almost never use (I know I will catch flack for this but it’s ok). I don’t even put it on my bars. If Ring of Peace could be moved or have an alternative path to it that would be great.

PS. Please increase Zen Flight to match speeds of regular mounts (ground and flying).

Edit: had an idea, what if we added a talent (for the fistweavers) that would be something along the lines of - Chi Tether, soothing mist is no longer channeled, instead it links the monk and the target together for its channel duration (or until another target is chosen) granting the benefits of Soothing Mist.

To compensate for the ability to use melee spells during it’s use the mana cost could be slightly increased or the channel time slightly reduced.

2 Likes

Enjoying the faerie stomp build and related areas of the tree for ww. From a pve feel.

This is sort of the build I am leaning toward. Feels very nice to play! Just wish we had more points to spend xD at least one or two in the spec tree.

The class tree feels sort of less good.

The nerf to Fortifying brew feels really bad as an option. Dampening Harm seems to have the same old functionality of being a nice low budget mitigation. Fortifying brew requires a bit too much to commit too for lesser value. On the huge 6 minute cd. It seems like its tuned soley for brewmasters and there brew lowering capabilities. Which makes it feel bad to go for expel harm. Requiring like 5 points of investment, and getting the cc daze, cdr, fort brew, improve lackluster fort brew and then getting a decent sustain heal we used to weave in our rotation.

I like faerie stomp and hoping we see good tuning for dungeon and solo play.

The combo strikes talent seems bad to get requiring the 10 energy talent 6% damage boost seems like an attractive option but you give up the more fun talents in aoe builds.

Good to see strikes of the windlord back with the cool functionality.

Xuen talents feel like they got separated too much and some consilodation would be nice to enjoy more engaging talents.

Hope the tuning pass will let us pick fun abilities and not boring passives.

The 6 minute cd on fort brew makes it also probablematic for swapping talents in open world if you choose to spec into it for a solo build with such a long baseline cd for other specs. If you want to encourage build swapping something may have to be done with cds being on cd for switching. At least in the open world and transitioning builds to say a mythic plus or raiding build.

Is the intent of the talent “vivify” (the talent, not the ability) to act as a buff to vivify, or act similar to the talent “fast feet”?

For Mistweaver, the vivify talent is particularly spec defining as it messes with the previous balance of vivify vs essence font and inflates the value of talents like clouded focus.

Although this might be controversial, there are two changes I would love purely for a Mistweaver Monk playstyle perspective that eschews Renewing Mist in favor of focusing on Soothing Mist. I have long considered the two abilities contradictory in playstyle as Renewing Mist causes frequent interruptions to Soothing Mist channeling.

  1. Make Renewing Mist truly optional by moving talents around in the first tier. Currently you are forced to take Renewing Mist to use 8 points to advance to the next tier.
  2. Allow Soothing Mist to be channeled while moving, or create an ability that allows for this function for a duration.

Considering Dragonflight is offering new enhancements to Soothing Mist, I think this would be a wonderful direction to take in order to allow Mistweavers to focus on Soothing Mist and abandon Renewing Mist should they want to play that way.

4 Likes

Any easy solution might just make those talents (the 40% buff and clouded focus) only effect the primary Vivify hit.

Xuen talents feel like they got separated too much and some consilodation would be nice to enjoy more engaging talents.

Just want to echo this specifically about xuen. I mentioned this during the first reveal of the talents the amount of talent point investment concerning xuen just seems overbearing when there are far more engaging and enjoyable talents in the rest of the tree. Would rather see that cut down overall and make a push more so for the other abilities in the talent tree.

5 Likes

Really enjoying the mistweaver tree so far! However - I really think the fact that Clouded Focus buffs vivify’s cleave needs to be looked into and either heavily nerfed or deleted. I am all for having the option to play a soothing mist centric build, but currently it is looking a little too strong in comparison to everything else. Obviously, we haven’t even got to raid testing yet - but I still wanted to give feedback on this ahead of time.

I heavily prefer to play a fistweaving build, or a build that at least includes it. I enjoy the option to play a more ranged build if I like, but current tuning of our talents shows that in raid, at least, we’ll be heavily pushed towards spending all our time channeling soothing mist and pressing vivify during it. I hope you all can balance this so both are viable.

2 Likes