Feedback: Monks

My thoughts at the moment coming from a BrM/WW higher end player. I also like MW but am much less familiar with it. These notes are focused mainly on WW.

Class Tree

  • Fortifying Brew: The position of this is still awkward after the changes. Disable and Paralysis are both extremely niche (read: barely ever used) in raids with Paralysis being used slightly more in M+. Having to spend talent points here to reach a valuable defensive feels bad.
  • Chi Wave/Chi Burst: A very iconic ability that is unfortunately locked behind a long chain of talents so that it requires heavy investment to reach. I think the left side of the talent tree could benefit from a few more connections allowing for more flexibility.
  • Roll: The position of the second charge of roll, as stated many times above is still in a very awkward spot. Soothing Mist is an entirely useless spell for WW and BrM, they will never cast it and it feels horrible pathing through this ability to reach Roll.
  • Statues: Overall the capstones of the class tree feel very underwhelming and it feels like the real power of the class tree lies in the middle rather than the bottom.
    • Jade Serpent Statue is unlikely to be taken by any spec. It is simply way too weak (I know this depends on tuning) and requires too much micro management. This could benefit from the duration of Soothing Mist being buffed to something much longer (> 20 seconds) but ultimately, I’d prefer a more utility based ability.
    • White Tiger Statue is extremely boring and does not fit the class fantasy of WW (or the other specs) at all. No one wants to place a 30 second dot on enemies that they can simply run out of. I don’t understand the people asking for this ability to be buffed. I would rather this ability be nerfed into the ground to the point where it’s better not to spec into it. I don’t want this ability in my rotation at all. As it stands (since it provides damage) it’s likely that 90+% of players will take it. I feel this spell would benefit greatly from a redesign, again into something more utility focused than damage. There have been plenty of suggestions as to what that could be (Windrush / melee damage conduit for attacking mobs from range, etc.).
    • Black Ox Statue is the least egregious of the 3 statues but is still too niche for MW or WW to use properly unless there are cases like Council of Blood where mobs simply don’t attack the statue and I don’t think that sort of cheese is a good reason to have players pick this talent. I feel there should be a stronger case for it. No suggestions for how this could be done atm.

WW Tree
The bugfixes are greatly appreciated and WW feels much better on beta. TY.

  • Rushing Jade Wind: This needs to be rethought. Even if this ability did competitive damage, it is not a fun ability to press. It doesn’t interact with the rest of the WW toolkit at all.
  • Jade Ignition: I’m a fan of this ability (it needs a buff in dmg) but feel it’s positioning above SoTW is not great considering these abilities are largely unrelated and used for different damage profiles. Perhaps replace Inner Peace with Jade Ignition and putting something else above SoTW.
  • Bonedust Brew / Faeline Stomp: I’m quite sad to see BDB returning. It wasn’t very liked in SL. I would much rather have seen Faeline Stomp become the AOE centric ability on the left side of the tree (perhaps with some changes so it doesn’t have such a strict positioning requirement :crossed_fingers:) and Weapons of Order return as the ST centric ability on the right side of the tree or even to replace Serenity. There’s a lot that can be done with these abilities at the bottom of the tree and a lot of room for improvement.
  • There are still quite a lot of bugs in the tree that make it difficult to test some builds:
    • Almost all of the Touch of Death talents don’t work at all
    • Calculated Strikes has just gone missing from the tree?
    • Drinking Horn Cover doesn’t work
    • And more but I’ll leave that to the in-game reports.
4 Likes

Was suggested earlier to make it “after a RSK” and stack up to 3, since it has so many resets, capping at 1 stack would feel bad. But RSK by default has a 10s CD, so it aligns with their thinking of “every 10s,” gives the player more agency, and allows the melee style (and the non-atotm) to weave in and out better.

Good gameplay, better than “wait 10s,” for sure.

2 Likes

They should change it so those hit by the dust have their hots refreshed, ala TFT in WoD. It would make it much more interesting and add some depth to the casting MW playstyle.

1 Like

So from what I’ve noticed, is that stagger is not being properly calculated or is HEAVILY NERFED at level 70. My level 60 has more stagger than the test character at 70.

Currently if take the template trinket which has 224 agility and replace it with a low level trinket that has 10 agility, I only lose 1% of stagger. That means stagger is being calculated at roughly 225 pts of AGI to every 1% stagger!

Brewmaster can’t sustain this kind of defensive in pvp or PVE for that matter if the scaling stays. Did something break for the templates? Are we not seeing the correct values due to UI bugs? I know if any real damage comes to my BrMs, i flop HARD. The others tanks in pvp don’t have this issue for sure. Brew needs a buff to stagger and AT THE LEAST: BUFF OUR HP TO MATCH PROT PALLY!

Why do brews have the least hp among all tanks when we technically take more damage since its not truly mitigated in the sense.

2 Likes

Paladins have word of glory, so I don’t see why it couldn’t work like it’s being suggested, especially with the stacking debuff.

Hello Mistweaver Monks! We have a few updates to the Mistweaver spec tree coming in the next beta build. We’d like to take a moment and discuss our upcoming changes and the philosophy behind them.

2 Point Node Positioning:

The 2-point node placement on this tree has been a little tricky to get into what we feel is the right spot. Overflowing Mists is a situationally powerful bonus, so we don’t want it controlling pathing in the bottom of the tree. Resplendent Mist felt like its use cases were more universal than its positioning. Peaceful Mending shouldn’t block off any pathways but should feel like it contributes to navigating down the tree if selected.

To accommodate these principles, we’ve moved Overflowing Mist back up to above gate 2, Resplendent Mist has moved to the node below Ancient Teachings of the Monastery and Clouded Focus, and Peaceful Mending is occupying a new connection on the right side of the tree that is not exclusively blocking any pathing below. This new pathing has also enabled Bountiful Brew and Attenuation to move up and directly connect to Bonedust Brew.

Jade Bond:

We’ve been steadily moving most of Jade Bond’s value to its Gust of Mist/Soothing Breath bonus. The dichotomy we’re looking for on this choice node is more frequent access via Gift of the Celestials versus more impactful access via Jade Bond. We’re hopefully continued tuning can get us there.

Unison:

We’ve made this into a choice node with Restorative Proliferation to make the middle path towards Invoker’s Delight slightly more appealing for all builds. Unison being on its own may have felt like a choice limiter to some builds who were interested in pursuing Invoker’s Delight.

Tea of Plenty:

We’re interested in pursuing this “random bag of goodies” design but felt the swing of expected value from this ability was too large, especially with the reintroduction of Essence Font to Thunder Focus Tea. In future beta builds, we’ve split Tea of Plenty’s effect into a choice node of two spells.

Tea of Serenity will give Thunder Focus Tea an extra charge of Renewing Mist, Enveloping Mist, or Vivify. Tea of Plenty will give Thunder Focus Tea an extra charge of Renewing Mist, Rising Sun Kick, or Essence Font. Hopefully this will maintain the same feel of the talent while allowing players to customize more towards their desired outcome.

Here’s the new layout you can expect to see:

  • Tea of Serenity. New Talent, Row 10. Thunder Focus Tea also grants Renewing Mist, Enveloping Mist, and Vivify 1 extra charge at random.

Thanks again for all of your testing and thoughtful feedback.

6 Likes

It’s good that you moved Resplendent mist away from bonedust brew as it’s a very nice talent but being forced to take bonedust brew for it was annoying. Monk is looking to be very fun!

1 Like

Excellent.

Now make Vivify instant again.

17 Likes

I have a proposal to help brewmaster’s with magic damage instead of relying on stagger. Our stagger works abysmally so on our defensive standpoint. It’s about 35% of our stagger. This equates to usually about 9 to 10% of the attack.

When you take into the account that we take 50% more damage and have less actual HP than all the other tank, we’re at a disadvantage from the get-go. We’re already gimped before we even start making a run for it.

I propose blizzard to make the following change: Each time you are hit by a melee or ranged attack, or hit with Blackout Kick, you gain stacking 8.0% increased Dodge chance until your next successful Dodge.

It’s high time we were allowed to dodge spells as brewmasters. It makes no sense that as fast we are as a spec/class shouldn’t be agile enough to dodge that giant incoming spell hurtling to our faces.

Please for the love of ALL brewmasters everywhere consider this change blizzard! Or help us out a little with HP.

1 Like

I wanted to share my own gut reaction to these changes. I really appreciate sharing the intent behind some of these changes. It really helps understand your thinking. Thank you for that.

I think the change to Resplendent Mists and Overflowing Mist are great changes. One of the challenges I’ve felt that in a melee build it often felt difficult to find enough points to unlock the second gate. The overflowing mist change will help that. I think having resplendent mists more reachable is great as well, and there are some definite synergies between it and jade bond (above it), so glad to see.

I do think Peaceful Mending’s spot could use a little more work. On one hand, I’m glad a talent I largely don’t want to get (because soothing mist is not very useful) is locked behind talents I don’t want to get (bonedust brew is not a good ability, and Upwelling / Focused Thunder are more niche), I feel like it’s placement is a little strange. There are very little synergies between it and the talents around it. The most logical place would be under clouded focus, which I think was the original intent.

Glad to hear this is the direction of the talent. Eager to see how this plays with direct access to resplendent mists.

I’m not sure I really follow the logic behind the change. Unison didn’t feel like a choice limiter to get to Invoker’s, and if the challenge was constraint to get to Invokers I don’t know this opens up new builds.

There’s a separate issue that Unison and Restorative Proliferation don’t feel particularly strong. The one situation I could think of using either of them would be a 3v3 Arena Comp with two melee DPS, and I think in that situation you’d want both of those talents. That may be okay.

I think this is an improvement over the current vversion, although my immediate gut reaction would be to have Tea of PLenty just give Renewing Mist or RSK. Maybe add vivify there instead of Essence Font? I’ll need to play around with how TFT + Essence Font feels in melee builds since this talent seems catered towards that approach.

Besides that, I’m still not sure I’d take Tea of Plenty in a melee build over other talents? It seems like it has the most contention with Awakened Faelines, which seems much stronger.

Thanks again for the post!

1 Like

Speaking of Overflowing Mists! I think its still bugged and doing like ~23% of max heal pools.

Just had a tank with 116,000 health and Overflowing was doing 26,000-28,000k

Probably fix this.

Edit: only bugged in normals. Probably scaling. Didn’t bug in heroic though

But that was definitely the right move, to move Resplendent mist.

  1. I dont think the description for Tea of Plenty is intuitive - i know what it does, i know what you are having it do, but if somebody were to read it, it makes no sense “what’s a charge of Vivivy??.”

Maybe “Thunder Focus Tea also affects a second cast of either Renewing Mist, Enveloping Mist, or Vivify at random.” is a better way to say it?

  1. A side note to this: Does this let you proc Yu’lon’s whisper twice?

  2. It’s still very hard to fit Zen Pulse since the tree is very tight already, and it doesn’t lend itself well to the two points it requires to complete it. Maybe make it baseline so its not in direct competition with everything else… Also, the requirement for both Enveloping mist and Renewing mist to proc the 70% second-proc is cool and all, but that’s a strange requirement for a 30s cooldown. Can it just be ONE or the other??

Hello,

A bit of Brewmaster feedback:

Just like in Shadowlands Tiger Palm(tp) and Spinning Crane kick(sck) compete as “fillers” in your rotation, having no cd and the same energy cost(25), the brew cdr from tiger palm is often not enough to justify pressing it over sck (especially when you consider things like the Walk with the ox talent reducing Niuzao’s cd)

It would appear natural taking Fluidity of motion, Face Palm and Blackout combo to use your combos on Tiger Palm every 3 seconds leads to the highest damage on single target, since it’s a lot of investment, active gameplay.

Assuming you combo every Tiger Palm, the damage will go from 27% of your ap to 54%, then if you factor in Face Palm it has 50% chance to double the damage, resulting in an average of 54* 50%*1+54 *50%*2= 81% of your AP

In the meantime if you just take Charred Remains and Sal’salabim strength, your Spinning crane kick will go to 40%*2 =80% of your AP, with absolutely no other setup than pressing breath of fire on cd, and it also scale with aoe, it also goes up to 96% AP with 2 points in the Fast Feet general Monk talent tree

So a low effort setup that scales with aoe has the same result or better on single target as a high effort setup, something is clearly wrong here.

What has to happen to make Blackout combo competitive damage wise is either to buff Tiger palm’s base damage, buff Blackout combo bonus damage to tiger palm(it used to be 200% back in legion, why is it 100% now ?) or buff Face Palm (which seems like a bad idea since the talent is already really strong by itself from the brew cdr)

Also probably already reported a few times but some bugs i found:
-Chi Torpedo doesn’t work at all, when you press it you roll
-Fatal Touch doesn’t work, it seems like it’s conflicted with the legendary power

3 Likes

I think the tree is looking generally really good and I commend the team’s work on it. Makes me excited to offspec Mistweaver again (WW main, overall monk enjoyer). I love this class to death.

These definitely feel like positive changes towards a separation of the melee vs caster builds. Personally I never want to play a caster version of MW or even HPal. But I accept that this is the way the team wants to go.

However, the biggest issue for me currently is that there is a lot of stuff and in its current iteration, the tree could use a spare point in the capstone level. And I think the best solution would be to just remove Enveloping Breath and just have it built in to the Celestials. I don’t entirely mind being forced to take absolutely necessary talents like that, but having to spend a point to make the Celestials usable feels worse when a very fun, interactive spell like Faeline Stomp is blocked by either a talent you’re never using as a Fistweaver (Calming Coalescence) or a more boring, less interactive talent talent like Yu’lon’s Whisper.

I really like the Mist Wrap/Refreshing Jade Wind choice node, but I’m having a hard time justifying picking it in certain builds, and I don’t feel great picking the previous two talents I mentioned. I think swapping the positioning of Mist Wrap/RJW with Yu’lon’s Whisper would feel really good. That choice node has a lot of great uses for caster and melee builds, and I believe that change in positioning will greatly benefit both playstyles, because then you’d be able to grab Mist Wrap and Calming Coalescence if you’re a caster and stop there, or use the choice node as a way into Faeline Stomp without feeling like you’re wasting a point for an already expensive Faeline build. I believe it also emphasizes playing more actively which is always a good thing, and leaves Yu’lon’s Whisper as an optional passive while still being decently powerful.

If there’s a concern over a spare point being too generous in the current tree, I would love to suggest putting a lot more value in one particular spell, Song of Chi-ji. As far as I know, Song is currently only used in PVP and doesn’t seem all that strong. In PvE it has been a dead talent for as long as I remember. I think if you added a mass soothe component to that talent, it will gain a lot of value in niche situations, particularly in mythic+ and raging weeks. Currently the best monk utility is brought by all 3 specs and Mistweaver tends to be the weakest out of those 3 in their particular roles, so having a strong unique piece of utility like a mass soothe will make it much more competitive (AND it works thematically), and it may also stop Evokers from dominating and being absolutely mandatory on Raging weeks. Please consider, I would love for this talent to be usable.

Keep on being awesome!

4 Likes

Your entire post is full of good feedback, I commend you. You basically covered exactly how the tree feels and argued succinctly why even that one point can make the difference in the tree feeling good versus bad.

I agree – there is a definite spot towards the end where the choice doesn’t feel “good.”

Would love to see more play for “Vivacious Vivification” to be instant rather than a set 10 seconds.

Maybe change it to 15 seconds but make “Blackout Kick” reduce its time by 1-3 seconds each time. Chose “Blackout Kick” because every spec uses it pretty regularly and could play well with “Teachings of the Monastery”

5 Likes

I’m a fan of this most recent round of changes to talents, but I’d genuinely like to hear the developers reasons for wanting to push Soom so hard.

I believe you’ve stated previously that the reason we’re losing instant viv is because it basically displaces the purpose of soom (instant cast envm/viv) which, i guess on the one hand it does. (for what its worth, id almost rather be able to opt out of instant viv every 10 seconds, because otherwise I’m in the weird scenario of wanting to track the buff incase I need to move in the few seconds after receiving it, but also having the feel of being a degenerate if I actively choose not to heal someone who needs it BECAUSE i want to be able to use an instant vivify on the move those few seconds later, however, skipping it sucks, because then you lose efficient pathing down the tree.)

Having stated one of the arguments you’ve made for Soom, here’s the question for the devs I guess. Even if you were to completely overload the amount of healing the spell does, why should I WANT to press it? It’s an 8s channel that slowly drains your mana, which isn’t too bad on its own, but it really starts to hurt when you’re actively throwing in heals on top of that ticking mana drain, to get the most out of the spell, you have to stand there, completely afk (unless you need to slam heals into that person, which rarely happens that you feel the only option you have is to just soom and slam) unable to auto attack, unable to use tp/kicks, moving cancels the cast. with viv, even excluding the removal of instant casts, you can 1.5s heal move 1.5s heal move, but with soom you’re essentially signing up for the long con, as there’s no instant burst heal like with viv every global, and you have to keep channeling to get more healing.

What is it you see in this spell, blizzard, that we don’t, because to me, it just feels like a relic of the past. With that being said, I do genuinely like the recent bluepost changes, so keep up the mostly good changes we’ve received so far.

5 Likes

Hello, giving PvP input from a high-end Mistweaver.

Please consider making vivacious vivification give charges to vivify, potentially up to 2 or 3 charges. In PvP it’s REALLY frustrating to have a random vivify become instant and you will need a weakaura, potentially addon to have an internal timer for this so you can plan your heals accordingly, as in PvP you have to be more precise with your healing.

Also soothing mist → vivify is currently consuming the instant vivify charge, which I hope is not intentional, if it is, this makes this talent even worse for PvP. (Change soothing mist please it’s been the same boring thing since BFA).

Also this will probably be the 3rd expansion in a row where fistweaving isn’t viable in Arena. Having to essence font to Ancient Teachings of the Monastery is really frustrating and not only that, ATOTM does not SMART heal. This means that if one of my teammates is 80% HP and another is 10% hp, ATOTM may heal the person at 80% HP which is HORRIBLE rng that you cannot have in arena. And with the other “fistweaving” talent Invoke Chi-Ji, The Red Crane, your damaging spells only proc gust of mists, not based on how much damage they do, like ATOTM.

It currently takes 4 globals for example:

Chi-ji → RSK → Blackout → Spinning Crane Kick

before you get an instant enveloping out. Based on my experience in shadowlands, you do not have 4 globals to crane during enemy CDs. Also again this ability does not SMART heal, meaning it may target two people that are higher HP than the 3rd one (BAD randomness in 3v3 arena). On top of this, even if you get your full rotation off which takes awhile, it isn’t always enough.

Way of the crane was good because it healed 3 people so you didn’t have to worry about smart healing.

Also I assume mastery will start out lower than what I got it to in the last 2 seasons of shadowlands (170% w/ necrolord mastery buff). And that gust will barely heal in the first season so I won’t even consider Chi-Ji because it will not do any healing.

Now to go back to BFA:

Way of the crane was fine in PvP until season 4 when you were able to play it in PvE due to “conflict and strife”. And I presume because of this being OP in PvE, it got removed and PvPers had to suffer as a result of it being OP in PvE.

How to fix crane:

Make it a PvP talent. 45 sec or 1 minute, immune to roots/slows like how it used to be. The problem with it having to be a PvP talent is that you have no space as Mistweaver. MW HAS to play eminence/peaceweaver/x 95% of the time. With the “X” rotating between short cocoon / disarm / aura mastery.

IMO you could remove eminence and just make crane break you out of stuns again. Keeping both in would make you have to pick one or the other cause there aren’t enough PvP slots considering Monk has 14 PvP talents now and only 3 PvP talent slots. now. Or perhaps make some of the PvP talents MW has on the regular tree, such as port in stun or short cocoon. Anything would be better than what we have for fistweaving, I have a lot of ideas about fistweaving but just wanted to start with this for now.

Also to talk about the new PvP talents more, it’s nice you’re adding new things to mistweaver, but adding them in the PvP section is bad because now there are 14 talents and we can’t EVER play them. I really wish I could play these fun and niche talents like Mighty Ox Kick or Alpha Tiger but I just can’t because there are just way better PvP talents. Please consider moving fun PvP talents like Mighty Ox Kick to the monk tree.

7 Likes

I very much like the idea of Soothing Mist, and always have. The channel heal idea is cool to replace the “strong, slow, efficient heal” bifurcation they took.

Unfortunately, they forgot the strong and efficient part, lol, and did not make it to fit actual gameplay

3 Likes

So, I really wanted to point out that I’m impressed that so many say they are overall satisfied with the WW tree. At first, I was indeed very hyped when the tree came out, it looked really promising and it went beyond my expectations, but… after that, to me, it seems that the WW tree just moved backwards. Apart of moving Last Emperor’s Capacitor to a less akward place (it still doesn’t allow us, the most mobile melee in the game, to cast it while on the move, BTW), and some improvements to Faeline Stomp (that doesn’t look anything like a monk skill) I saw no improvements, just an ovrall downgrade of the former version.

We still have useless talents (Inner Peace), hated talents that NO ONE asked for, and the community was actually grateful that it was gone, just to be brought back for some really unknown reason (Hit Combo). We have several non-funcional talents (all ToD talents and a few others), Calculated Strike was literally removed from the tree out of nowhere cause apparently the Dev simply copy pasted the Bonedust Brew conduit twice on the end of the tree (how does this even go throught a revision, seriously?) and we have talents that do LITERALLY the same thing (Open Palm Strikes and Flashing Fists, the former being bugged on rank 2, not changing from rank 1 btw), both are lireally the SAME talent, occupying 2 different nodes, WHY?? Seems like the DeV did a good job on the first tree and now is totally lost on what to do.

I’m not even mentioning the bad change of Instant Vivifies now having a 10s internal CD (this was a terrible PvP talent back in 8.0, that was rapidly removed on 8.1 for a reason, it felt bad), that I actually have to pick to get Chi Burst (a chi generator), even tho they claimed this last build to be more “flexible” and allow more pathing. The extra roll charge apart of Celerity is STILL behind SooM (seriously, why?) and its mind blowing to me that after basically a month, the only new thing was this awfully lazy design Xuen Statue that does the same as Xuen - Lighting AOE damage, but doesn’t interact with anything, and makes our damage stationary (not even mentioning how bad all the statues are as capstones).

I won’t say anything about Glory of the Dawn not scaling at all (since it hits for 1.5k while my RSK crits for 70k), since that can be related to tuning or w/e, neither will complain about ther “concern” on Shadowboxing Treads interaction with Mark of the Crane (my level 70 monk SCK is hitting less than my level 60 live monk), because that is tunning as well, just like Bonedust and Jade Ignition need tunning.

6 Likes