Feedback: Monks

Mistweaver feedback on the 9/13 build:

As OP as it was, the nerf to instant Vivify feels extremely bad and as much as I’d love to complain about how it’s too heavy of a nerf, I think it’s more constructive to instead ask (beg) for more control over the proc, and I have a few ideas of how they could do that.

I’m looking at this from a rangeweaving perspective, or at least from the perspective of someone who runs a non-fistweaving build, and with that in mind I also want to put out a few simple concepts for how the rangeweaver playstyle could gain some viability as a DPS without having to invent us a whole new set of abilities.

I agree with the developer’s note that having Vivify be instant all the time with its current functionality is probably too much of a good thing and reduces “decision space” especially with the new buffs to other parts of our toolkit… but working around a proc with independent timing isn’t fun. I’m not sure if delaying using the instant vivify delays the next proc - which would give us back a fraction of control - but it still doesn’t feel great, and it also sounds like it might be too easy to waste if we’re already hard casting a few vivifies at the time. Also, something we can control > something we have to track.

Looking at the developer’s note, if they’re concerned about “obsoleting” Soothing Mist (which it sounds like many agree is already an obsolete or at least a disliked part of the toolkit), how about giving us reasons to want to use it? What if we baked this instant vivify proc into something we can strongly affect and control by using soothing mist beforehand?

Just a few implementations I could imagine:
A) Every 1 sec spent channeling Soothing Mist gives you 0.5 seconds where Vivify casts instantly, beginning as soon as Soothing Mist ends/is cancelled.
B) Channeling Soothing Mist for its full duration makes your next 2 Vivify casts instant.
C) Soothing Mist increases the cast speed of Vivify by 12.5% per tick (up to 100%) for 4 seconds, beginning once the Soothing Mist cast ends/is cancelled.

I’m sure this sounds absolutely disgusting to people who already hate Soothing Mist, but I’m still hoping someday they’ll give us some exciting ranged DPS options, which brings me to some simple concepts for ranged DPS, most of which are about manipulating interactions between existing abilities:

Again, just some concepts I’d love to see realized:
A) Every X seconds spent channeling Crackling Jade Lightning increases its damage by Y, ending when the cast completes. When the cast ends/is cancelled, it triggers a small AoE burst centered on the target that deals more damage based on how long you channeled for. (To make this work we’d probably want a longer maximum channel duration than it currently has.)
B) Every target hit with Chi Burst causes our next Crackling Jade Lightning to strike an additional target. If Chi Burst hits less than X targets, the damage of your next Crackling Jade Lightning is increased by Y.
C) Have your jade serpent/white tiger statue function differently, where you place it and then channel/cast heals into it to trigger different damaging effects (see the above concepts for ideas).
D) Channeling Crackling Jade Lightning for its full duration empowers your Spinning Crane Kick to deal X additional nature damage for Y seconds, beginning when the cast ends. (Or really any kind of temporary buff with a similar trigger.)
E) They could just copy-paste the AoE jade lightning and spammable single-target Chi Burst used by the friendly NPC from the Tank Proving Grounds scenario, replacing our kicks with them. You’d probably want these to deal a bit less than their melee alternatives since they have the benefit of being castable at range.
F) Corrosive Dosage LET’S GOOOOOOOO? (even I don’t know if I’m serious about this one, but I couldn’t leave it out, even though the version we get in Torghast is massively boring on its own)

I know I’m in the minority here asking for rangeweaving options, but… thoughts? :slight_smile:

4 Likes

Overall pretty happy with the windwalker tree, but there are a few things that should be furthered looked at.

The choices to start pathing the left side of the tree feel a lot worse than the right side. Touch of the Tiger doesn’t really have any synergy with the left side of the tree and it would make more sense to have Hardened Soles swap places with it to synergize with pathing to Shadowboxing treads.

Feathers of a Hundred Flocks feels really weak compared to the other talents. It adds 1 or 2 yards to an ability that already has a good sized radius. I would prefer to see something else here, but if not I think a larger radius increase is needed.

Inner Peace feels really out of place on the talent tree and 10 energy is a very weak talent. Also, no matter how you feel about Hit combo, having to path through Inner Peace as the only option to get there feels really bad. I would like to see Inner Peace changed back to Hit Scheme and have it buff one of the windwalker abilities.

Rushing Jade Wind needs to be either removed or redesigned for windwalker. No matter how much you buff the damage it is going to feel clunky to press in our rotation.

As others have said I agree that Faeline Stomp should be replaced with Weapons of Order. It feels weird to have in the tree and I don’t ever see myself taking it unless it is dealing broken levels of damage.

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I want to mention and bring up thoughts on ancient teachings of the monastery, for something that was a throw away legendary with no further gameplay built on it I didn’t care that the range on this was 20 yards, because you could always just cocoon the 1 or 2 ranged people and viv the other to cover high damage.

But now with so much being built ontop of the ability to heal from dealing damage I feel its worth revisiting the range on this ability, going into BFA it was seen as a good enough reason to bump up Essence Font’s range from 25 to 30 yards, so I ask could you revisit Ancient Teachings of the Monastery (can you please rename it back to eminence or something, its a mouthful) Because they are both effectively the same idea of rotational coverage healing in lower periods.

I feel it would do a lot for us in the short and long term, because atleast that would be more acceptable.

Another thing while on this subject, could you make adjustments on faeline stomp so allies can see it better, and if you have to you could reduce how much of an eye strain it is by making it less vibrant, I feel this is also relatively important.

Unless ofcourse… you guys want to decouple needing to stand on the faeline and give us full restriction-less positioning…? (or atleast make it wider or something please <3 )

1 Like

Gotta say that the change to vivify not being instant cast is the wrong direction for what the heal should feel like. If we dont want instant vivifys might as well make soothing castable while moving right?

13 Likes

Alright, I was waiting for a couple more changes to go through, but there’s enough changes to revisit what I’ve said before.

For the General Tree (As a WW):
I think Expel Harm being baseline is fine, considering it was in a weird spot in the tree.
Fort Brew is still gated behind something we might not use since both Paralysis AND Disable are situational (in raids), while Fort Brew is kinda mandatory and usefull/needed in all types of content.
Windwalking is still too weak, still not sure why it can’t be like, or better than the current version. I was hoping for the version we had with the Legendary back during Legion.
The Tiger statue feels very plain? Like I was kinda hoping something similar to a Roar/Windrush that would interact directly with our Windwalking, like maybe putting down the statue would increase the range of it to 40 yards and give it a boost or something.
A fire and forget kind of ability every 2-3 is just too boring. Especially when it doesn’t interact with anything at all.
AND especially because it’s something you place on the ground and basically roots your damage there, and that directly contradicts being able to move freely and being agile as a Monk.
Again, a Roll charge being gated behind Soothing Mist is still a bit weird, but not that much of a loss considering we most likely will be taking Celerity in all situations. Though that removes the ability of Chi Torpedo ever being viable, because even with 2 charges it’s still VERY situational. At 1 charge it’s simply something you will never look at. If anything Chi Torpedo should have 2 charges baseline.
The nerf to the instant Vivify, while I understand and get that it could be problematic for a MW, it was something I was really looking forward to as both Brewmaster and Windwalker.
Because you have to compare Vivify to all the other abilities the other classes have.
As a DPS, Windwalker competes as a Hybrid MELEE dps with: Rets, Enhs, Ferals.
And Rets while they have Flash of Light, which basically outside downtime doesn’t interact with their dps at all, because they’re spending mana in order to be able to heal themselves. Word of Glory being the instant cast option they have in order to sacrifice their dps resource in order to have an instant cast heal. Enhancement shamans do exactly the same, they sacrifice Maelstrom stacks in order to make Healing Surge be instant. Ferals don’t even have to sacrifice anything and just get a free instant heal as part of their rotation. While Windwalkers not only have to spend their dps resource, being Energy BUT they also have to cast the heal. That makes their healing be competely inferior to all the other melee hybrids. Now, Elemental Shamans, Shadow Priests and Balance Druids have to cast as well, but Mana isn’t their damage resource, so it’s still not the same.
Brewmaster also has the same issue vs other tanks but it’s not as massive considering Brew has the orbs and a better Expel Harm.
That’s why I believe at least WW should get to keep the permanent instant cast Vivify.

Now for the Windwalker Tree:

Hit Combo isn’t fun, it wasn’t fun ever. It’s just some passive damage increase you get by playing the simple rotation WW has. Doesn’t interact with anything.
I still believe WW should go back to it’s old Tigereye Brew mastery, but that’s something else.
Adding Faeline Harmony makes more sense because it actually makes Faeline Stomp more viable in ST, but it’s still yet another ability that feels super bad to play around in any content that’s not solo content. And even then it’s weird.
Monk in general, and specially Windwalker should be a very mobile spec.
Having an ability that completely locks you in place for potentially 30 secs just doesn’t fit in the WW playstyle. Make Faeline be able to be reset without needing to stand on it, or just remove it completely.
After reading some PvPer opinions and talking with another Monk players, I believe Keefer’s should be removed. It’s not fun, it’s clunky and it’s generally bad in PvE. And while I thought it might have some place in PvP, apparently it’s not wanted in that type of content either, forcing WW to a particular playstyle and just being overall poorly designed.
Rushing Jade Wind still needs to be removed or reworked. Costing Chi is bad. Should be a just a toggle that costs Energy per second or something else.
I still feel like Jade Ignition is in the wrong place of the tree, and that Ancient Teachings of the Monastery has no place in the WW playstyle.
RNG is fun when it alters the playstyle and rewards the players without penalizing skill.
Too much RNG or reliance on it can cause a degenerate playstyle fishing for procs, and that’s just not fun at all.
I still believe Weapons of Order should replace the Faeline Stomp section on the Single Target part of the tree.
I still want Fist of the White Tiger to be back and replace Power Strikes.
Other than that it’s looking a bit better.
Really hoping to see more changes to Monk in general.

3 Likes

As someone who wants Soothing Mist to be used, I 100% agree that making it channel-able while moving will help remediate the negative impact of the Vivacious Vivification change while also addressing the Developers’ concerns:

Developers’ note: We really liked the idea of pushing Vivify as a more responsive heal, but Vivacious Vivification as a 100%, always-on reduction to the cast time of Vivify was reducing the decision space for the class as a whole and completely obsoleting Soothing Mist in particular.

4 Likes

Gotta give it to the devs for the PvP talents really liking what they are planning. Just wish rodeo for brewmasters changed it back into a stun like it use to be.

Also old nimble brew needs to come back and just be usable like it use to be the new one seems to not work very well organically and I have seen it miss my allies close by for zero reason.

I know that In this forum, I am not the majority, but I still use Soothing mist all the time, M+ and Heroic raiding. And in my M+, I don’t have a DK tank that just heal more than me, most of my tanks are warr and druid. And I don’t pull +22 but at least 20s.

Insta Vivify full time just remove the need to even have Soothing Mist on the bar. You would have almost no reason to stop and cast, ever again. So you could remove soothing mist and enveloping mist from your bar and still be fine.

That’s the main reason I didn’t wanted to see Insta Vivify go live (And that’s for MW, I think its fine for WW and Brew as they don’t use the same resources and will run out fast).
Now, does not having that totally fix Soothing mist? Not really… at least for most of you guys. I don’t mind channeling a spell and having it change the way I use some spells with it. What’s the difference with a priest hard casting flash heal?

Insta Vivify is close to having Shamy with Insta Chain healing with a talent full time.

And why don’t you post on your monk and not a lvl10 alt with 30 achievements points?

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I’m from Europe, that’s why I had to make a character on NA realm.

Instant vivify doesn’t mean that you can’t continue turreting if that’s what you prefer, in some cases you might still want to do it to single-target pump a tank, or whatever. Saying that it invalidates soothing mist and enveloping mist makes absolutely no sense. We keep the exact same rotation in pve (dungeons) and it gives more options for pvp’ers

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(post deleted by author)

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Its my opinion. I have said many time in this forum that I am a casting monk, not fistweaver. And yes, my opinion is relevant, thanks you.

And to say that you are playing the way the spec is suposed to be played… you play that way because of a legendary Power… not even a talent. Remove that legendary and then what?

And yes, it does affect the casting side of monk too. We use Soothing mist so we have insta spell. If that spell is already insta without Soothing mist, then why use it?

And btw, a lot of class have to stop and move.

5 Likes

This is the wrong solution.

Here’s a better solution:

  • Make Soothing Mist baseline instead of Vivify.
  • Trade out the Soothing Mist talent for Vivify.
  • Make Vivacious Vivification a choice node:
    1. Vivify is now instant cast.
    2. Soothing Mist can now be channeled while moving.

On another note, the changes to Expel Harm were good. More talents to make that a more desirable form of healing over Instant Cast Vivify (for self-healing, anyway) would go a long way in helping to reduce the impact that Vivacious Vivification has/had on the rest of the tree.

17 Likes

I popped on the PTR because I had questions.

So the way the talent is actually working on PTR and not BETA is you have an instant cast of vivify with a 10 second recharge of it, but you can continue to cast vivify with it’s regular cast time.

I like this design, it was about to be my suggestion.

Enhancement Shaman!

Hard-casting for melee characters needs to die in a fire.

“Channeling” (example: Eye-Beam, Fists of Fury) makes sense so long as the melee character is able to move while doing so.

Melee inherently have to deal with significantly more mechanics and dangers than ranged characters do.

4 Likes

Yes or bring back the 100% avoidance while channeling. Nothing grinds my gears more than doing a Whirling Dragon Kick or Eyebeam animation just to die because too slow to stop cast. At least FoF, Bladestorm you can move about, and its literally only two classes (that I can think of)

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Your opinion is relevant but casting MW has certainly not been relevant for awhile now. This play style is outdated and needs serious changes if it wants to become relevant again but nerfing melee MW is not the answer to bringing it back. This is the same case with casting hpal, stop with the nerfs on the melee healers and just design casting MW and hpal better.

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Surely at 3k+ rating you can see why the devs have concerns about a permanent instant cast heal and how that limits what they can do going forward.

Remove the cooldown on Riptide. How is shaman going to play out?

Trolling? You are trolling, I haven’t trolled a single thing. I’ve provided meaningful insight as to why “WE NEED IT TO KIX” is a bad argument.

I’m not even sure why my Alt or credentials matter here. It’s quite clear – and Blizzard agrees – you cannot balance an instant heal spam ability. Like, put RIPTIDE off cooldown and see how things go. Seriously.

If you can’t see that, well, that explains why it took you 5 months to finish the SL mythics. What, didn’t get the money from mommy to buy Mythic boosts until S3??

And I will keep posting on my QUITE OBVIOUS alt. Where’s YOUR monk?

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Can someone explain to me why this LFR rogue has been trolling in the monk forum since this change was made? Change your character or maybe post a link to your credentials, you’ve been posting the same point about the change with no meaningful argument.

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Casting MW and Fistweaving ‘should’ be the same output, but we all know its not.

How many years was Fistweaving been terrible and people complaining about it? I can tell you - since Mists of Panderia, now that we got it, people complaining they cant keep people up in dungeons, now in DF you have that option, will it be better than fistweaving? probably not, but people who try to fistweave in dungeons, no matter optimal or not are going to struggle, I think thats why the two sides, you just dont have the gusto to keep 5 players alive passively kicking and pushing essence font. The more experienced players will still fistweave.

1 Like