Feedback: Monks

Yes, after applying the talents the tooltip is updated.

Still a bug.

The second charge being locked behind a (typically) mistweaver spell for windwalkers and brewmaster seems a little strange even.

Mostly a WW player - first impressions are reaaaallly good - really like that some of the old favorites from legion have come back (Strike of the Windlord!!! AHHHHH!!! :smiley: ) - even if a lot of it isn’t currently working (most of the Touch Of Death ones - most of the Fists Of Fury ones - Jade Ignition) Super hopeful and excited - did a few dungeons on alpha and had a blast. Super exciting! Some bugs I encountered (and reported in game as well!)

There is currently zero cool down on Fortifying Brew.
Jade Ignition doesn’t seem to work at all.
Fatal Touch doesn’t work at all.
Power Strikes doesn’t work.
Fatal Flying Guillotine doesn’t work.
Thunderfist did seem to work either.

Everything mentioned I have reported in game.

Aside from stuff just being implemented and not working I’m super excited and hopeful for the Windwalker tree. A ton of really cool concepts and paths and potential unique builds we can have for this.

Excited to see what the middle monk capstone is (hopefully a dps since left is a heal right is a tank…) and what the ability above Keefer’s Skyreach will be.

Kudos to the dev(s) on it - much appreciated! Thank you!

4 Likes

Monk baseline tree seems very weirdly structured.

Provoke should be baseline along with the interrupt so people can actually have the talents they need to play and do basic things. I feel like the speed increase is a class flavor at this point and should be baked in.

Elusive mists and Roll out should be switched so they are closer to things they actually change/enhance. Seems like alot of bloat on the trees

still testing brewmaster but the tree seems really solid

15 Likes

I think Gale Burst and the SEF / Serenity node should be swapped. as is, it places the major dps cooldown behind what seems to be an optional talented rework of TOD’s functionality. essentially forcing the legion TOD version on everyone.

3 Likes

Monk is showing provoke in my baseline abilities, like roll, so I think it’s something to do with the movement speed alone, not provoke itself in the talent tree. The talent may just need to be renamed/show different values for the enhancement to the base ability.

The thing with roll itself is that I’m getting 2 charges baseline, where the talent also says 2 charges.

Added to Known Issues:

  • We’re working on a bug where, if you learn a talent loadout with some of the NYI talents, you won’t be able to spec out of them.
2 Likes

Coming from a 9 year ww vet in both high end pve and pvp.
There are concerns/suggestions and bugs to address so far after some testing;

First talents that do not function or not working as intended, then I will give my opinions on the tree;

  • Hidden master’s forbidden touch talent does not trigger its second use.

  • Fatal touch talent is not reducing the cooldown on touch of death.

  • Last emperor’s capacitor talent is not showing in spell book on learning and is not giving you stacks after using chi.

  • Various talent’s such as Hit Scheme, Feathers of a Hundred Flocks, Mark of the crane, Flashing Fists, Empowered Tiger Lightning, Rising Star, Fatal Flying Guillotine show up as active ability’s rather than passive effects.

  • Shadowboxing treads is not making blackout kick hit multiple targets

  • Hit scheme talent effect is functioning as an active ability(it is intended as passive) but will buff Keg smash (brewmaster ability)

  • Thunderfist talent is not giving any stacks on hits.

  • Galeburst talent does not function and could not function with the current iteration of touch of death (guessing its placeholder)

  • Fury of xuen talent’s Xuen proc is not applying Empowered Tiger Lightning

  • Drinking horn cover talent is not increasing the duration of your cooldown

  • Keefer’s skyreach talent is not making tiger palm a 10 yard range, is also not applying the crit debuff to the target.

  • Fortifying brew has no cooldown when using the cooldown reduction talent

  • glory of the dawn talent is currently doing 2% of the damage of a rising sun kick

  • flashing fists talent is not increasing the damage of fists of fury.

As far as the WW talent tree goes there are many concerns here.

Now for feedback;

Right now it feels like there are too many talent’s that function the exact same way but are too good making the tree very linear and all over the place as far as picking nodes go, and core functions of the spec that have become talents like flying serpent kick, touch of karma, and mark of the crane. the problem with this part is that you can completely skip these which WILL become a optimal strategy in a lot of situations which can also cause problems.

You WILL see pugs without flying serpent kick and touch of karma dying to mechanics trying to get more damage out of the tree.
You WILL see top end raiding trying to minmax and skip these. You WILL see pvper’s trying to matchup fish in arena and take more damage rather than cooldowns where they know they will not be targeted.
In all of these potential scenarios, it is a toxic and unfun player experience for the monk, and the players being affected by the monks choices which is why I think both Touch of Karma and Flying Serpent Kick should go baseline.

In any scenario where there are multiple targets, you will want mark of the crane it is a must take talent in all aoe scenarios but the tree allows the option to skip it which is why I think this talent should go baseline.

The left side of the tree which is mostly comprised of aoe talents is really promoting the use of weaving blackout kicks and mainly using spinning crane kick and fists of fury as your main damage source like current retail. However going down this tree feels very awkward for a few different reasons;

  1. In order to get to your best talents at the bottom (Calculated strikes, Bonedust brew) you need to take talents that do not benefit you in aoe. You also need to take talents on the right side of the tree that have your best aoe talents (open palm strikes, strike of the wind lord)

  2. With the amount of damage you’re gaining from Blackout kick, spinning crane kick by keeping up marks of the crane and its synergy with Bonedust brew, and Fists of fury there’s no incentive for you to ever want to press rushing jade wind since 2 casts of it do less than a buffed up spinning crane kick (and its soft target capped), and it has no synergy with our rotation.

My suggestion for these problems on the left side is to as I said earlier, make mark of the crane a baseline passive. Another really good change that will allow you more freedom of choice in the tree is to make the Dance of Chiji talent node connect with Crane vortex, so that you CAN skip rushing jade wind and hidden master’s forbidden touch if you find yourself not needing them which there are a lot of scenarios where you will go down this tree and both of those talents will end up becoming unimpactful choices for you essentially wasting your talent point. (PvP specifically, some raid fights, some mythic plus dungeons).

The right side of the tree has our strongest talents and is laid out pretty well to allow some freedom but some of the talents in this tree don’t make sense as it is mainly a single target orientated side.

Unlike the left side where most of the talents are directly benefiting you in aoe and the bottom of the tree have your best aoe talents, the right side bottom actually just has the least impactful bottom row for single target damage.

Faeline stomp which was generally seen as a good cleaving tool and was mainly powerful due to the soulbinds in shadowlands has come back, but why on the single target tree? Why not Weapons of Order which was our best single target covenant for most of the expansion?
It was also the most fun cooldown to play with and added a lot of variety to the spec when it came in shadowlands compared to the fire and forget Faeline Stomp which is also an aoe orientated ability, so why is it on the single target tree?

That ontop of Jade Emperor’s capacitor being really weak while also being counter intuitive to the whole monk rotation which also already has a lot of buffs to track there really is 0 incentive to take any of the talents at the bottom of the right side of the tree the way those talents are currently designed.

My suggestion would be to replace Faeline with Weapons of Order or to change how faeline works in someway, and to also swap Jade emperors capacitor with Keefer’s skyreach. This will give incentive to go further down this side of the tree having powerful single target talents in it giving the row identity.

The middle row is pretty good honestly but I think all of the xuen talent’s should just be merged into one as like I said before there are too many good talents in your tree to want to take menial talent’s that provide small buffs situationally like Xuen’s bond. All 3 talents, Xuen’s bond, Fury of xuen and empowered tiger lightning should feel just baseline but we have to talent into them just to buff up xuen instead of buffing our own character which feels extremely bad to spend points on.

Edit: I forgot to make my point as to there are too many talent’s that are buffing touch of death which is a skippable base tree talent and the main function and idea of the ability is to be a 15%- execute on a long cooldown. The ability itself is already very niche and not considered much in your baseline rotation on standard enemies so taking a bunch of talents to amplify it doesn’t feel very good compared to taking talents that amplify your abilities that you are using very often.

27 Likes

I haven’t checked alpha, but I believe Provoke IS baseline, and the talent give the movespeed increase.

1 Like

agreed provoke either should be baseline or moved up the tree near the top having it near the end of the tree on the left side feels odd

Hello. I’m mostly making some suggestions for the Mistweaver tree.

There are two talents currently melee focused that are on the right side of the tree that don’t exactly fit in with their surrounding talents. Mostly referring to Rapid Diffusion for this, as it’d make a lot more sense for this talent to be on the left side of things along with the other clear melee focused things.

Rising Mist being a choice talent on the right side is also a bit of a pain because then I’d have to talent into BDB as well as the talent node for Gusts. Fistweavers don’t normally utilize Mastery, we go for haste/crit/verse, so mastery is actually a bit of a weak stat for the playstyle. I honestly believe that Restorative Proliferation and Rising Mist swapping places would be more cohesive.

Teachings of the Monastery is a talent that honestly adds a lot of clunkiness to the spec; this is especially true when you already allow BoK to strike three times with the new Faeline Stomp passive. It could instead be revitalized or otherwise replaced; just I can’t stress enough how needing to TP three times before using another spell is not fun.

My last suggestion is tied to Ancient Teachings of the Monastery. Essence Font is a great healing spell that for fistweaving is honestly just pressed and cancelled just to activate the Eminence buff. I just think it’d be a lot more fluid if you didn’t need to waste a healing GCD just to start healing with your damage abilities.

9 Likes

Your post is well thought out and makes a lot of sense - I do agree that some things are placed weird - but I’m chalking it up to early stuff and alpha and stuff will get “rearranged” or so I hope.

I do think that more things should be baseline - for a lot of classes - althought I haven’t checked so many class trees because I’m a huge monk player - dabbled a bit on warrior and rogue.

Either way this is the kind of feed back we need - I did a couple of dungeons and logged them as well and RSK hits way harder than anything else - Fist of Fury felt like a useless button to press because it was back to the “spend 3 chi do the least possible damage” and that’s with all the FoF bufs in the tree.

I will do way more testing - the week is still very young! super excited for what is to come though!

Soothing Mist on the base tree seems really weird. Same with Jade Serpent Statue.

10 Likes

I think this is due to the talent in the base tree that amps rising sun kicks damage by 70% “Fast feet” probably not intended. rising sun kick is doing more damage per cast than fists of fury to 4 targets, but also none of the fists of fury modifiers are working aswell so we should see fist do alot more when they get fixed

With the Statue I think it should go back to the mistweaver tree. then offer a choice node there and add a crane statue option. Maybe have the crane statue act as Eminence did and have a percent of damage done be applied as healing around the monk/statue.

5 Likes

Pretty sure this is just Rising Sun Kick rank 2 (which returns it to live power)

You can go a different route to get to it! I’ve seen (and made) a lot of builds that get rising mist without having to take Bonedust brew!

This is gonna all be MW feedback (mainly for raid) (also going to be all over the place)

The way Soothing Mist is being pushed feels very strange to me. There are are a fair bit of talents that buff the healing we do when targeting someone with Soothing Mist but nothing increase the gameplay feel of having to press Soothing Mist. Currently the full driver is numbers, Being able to do more healing to that specific target which will in turn make us cancel Soothing Mist on them quicker which makes that initial 1 second gcd feel more punishing. You will have to constantly be restarting Soothing Mist on new targets which leads to more Soothing Mist GCD time.
Some of these bonuses like Clouded Focus RESET upon recasting Soothing Mist on the same target or a different target which makes it feel worse. We also have the general we have more Soothing Mists happening but they don’t do anything besides heal. For instance Jade Serpent Statue and Unison are just Soothing Mists that have no interactions, you don’t get instant cast Vivifies or Enveloping Mists through them nor does abilities like Elusive Mists or Peaceful Mending apply.
There also seems to be some minor weird cannibalization of Soothing Mist specific bonuses being given as talent nodes. The ability for Vivify to generically be cast instantly removes some agency around Soothing Mist while also making Mistweaver one of the most mobile healers in the game. It can also cause issues in pvp where they could develop a build where they never use a kickable ability.
This also applies to Soothing Breath from Yu’lon. Just a lot of passive green beams with no interactions.

The class tree is cool… Maybe we get a little too tanky with 3 defensives at the same time…

I know numbers are highly subject to change but in the current build it appears that the goal for mistweaver is the coat the raid in renewing mists. This would make Essence Font a button we don’t want to press ever. We’d also talent out of Ancient Teachings of the Monastery as Essence Font would just be less HPM/HPCT and have no mobility advantage compared to Vivify passed… 3 renewing mists. This is even IN FISTWEAVING builds that are designed to focus on the damage we do.

Yu’lon gaining Enveloping Mist mana cost reduction feels like its stealing from chi-ji. One of the big draws to Chi-ji in raid was the reduced mana cost during your celestial window but now with that on Yu’lon (even at different rates) feels like Yu’lon will always win. The reduced CD also pushes this harder as you can be spoon feed innervates to produce insane hps during your window 12 second window every minute. Feels like spirit shell but hps instead of absorbs.

Then we get to Thunder Focus Tea…
This ability just feels so overloaded. There are so many different things it can do ranging from aoe healing, giving stat, buffing a spell, and RNG buffing another spell. Its overwhelm to determine which parts are the most impactful and if I should use it on cooldown or plan around big damage events. It also has some annoyances such as it starting its cooldown AFTER you consume the buff instead of on button press unlike Double Tap and Stormkeeper. When you add Focus Thunder it increases the stacks of the buff you get meaning you have to cast 2 spells in a row before it goes on cooldown. Then when you combine Secret Infusion and Focus Thunder You’d assume you get two buffs but in all reality you only get a buff on the first spell you consume. This only adds to the confusion and overwhelming nature of the spell.

Then we get to mastery…
This stat seems to be in a weird place still… It has a lot of spells that don’t interact with it and to increase its power requires HEAVY investment in one part of the talent tree to get a small buff. There doesn’t seem to be anything in the tree to really make us want to use our mastery or to be blunt care about it at all. It almost feels like a oh yeah we have this... moving on. While this would appear to be the “caster” stat it really isn’t nearly every AoE button we have only produces single target mastery events if that. We also run into an interest situation where mastery makes Soothing Mist time SHORTER due to healing the target up faster. Which goes against a few of the options on the tree such as Clouded Focus and Unison…

My brain is kind of fried so I’ll probably do another post soon™

11 Likes

I will have more feedback after I get to try this out some more personally, but here are my initial reactions after just playing with the tree a little. I won’t be discussing bugs per-se.

I am mainly focused on a mythic raiding scenario or semi-highend m+, solely from a WW perspective.

The first thing that comes to mind when I see this tree is “Left is aoe, middle is cleave, right is single target” with some minor crossovers.

-Jade Ignition into Strike of the Windlord doesn’t make much sense. Jade Ignition should probably be tied to Spinning Crane Kick in some way.
-Jade Ignition probably needs to be more on the left because it’s very much aoe/cleave, nowhere near single target/cleave of the right side.
-Touch of the Tiger needs to go or be reworked. It’s boring, largely worthless no matter how much tiger palm damage you give it, and it’s not needed for anything ahead of it. I would prefer this be more resource-oriented.
-Shadowboxing Treads needs to be more centralized to fit better among the cleave center theme, and to give it its niche in single-target, and this can help with the Dance of Chiji problem outlined below.
-Ancient Teachings of the Monastery - is the intent to get 3 sec of cdr from the 3 extra Blackout Kicks? I feel like this ability was almost put in the WW tree by mistake. Also, Rising Sun Kick resets completely ruin the flow of a windwalker playstyle. I would prefer it to be something more like, the extra BOKs gain double cooldown reduction or something. Also, the extra Blackout Kicks should probably contribute to/benefit from mastery and get properly copied by Storm, Earth, and Fire clones.
-Faeline stomp feels completely out of line on the right side and at the bottom of the tree. This was one of the weakest covenant abilities we had in Shadowlands, it shouldn’t be a capstone or near-capstone. It’s also very much a cleave-oriented ability not a single-target oriented ability nor an aoe-oriented ability.
-Rushing Jade Wind is a dead talent again. Maybe if this gave Transfer the Power stacks per-tick instead of per-cast we’d take it.
-Dance of Chi’ji is a “default” talent in a single target throughput build due to pathing. Where else am I going to assign points here (https://imgur.com/a1ex6Py) for single-target throughput? None of the other options are compelling, and the utility ones are redundant compared to the extra throughput of Dance. This can’t be intended.
-Inner Peace’s 10 energy should not be a talent, especially when Ascension is practically mandatory already.

10 Likes

Weird but in a good way wish it was just like a monk statue instead of jade statue

1 Like

I’m still thinking about how I feel about the current state of the WW tree but does anyone else feel weird not seeing EE or Fist of the White Tiger not being on the tree? Theres a few talents that give back chi randomly and we also have ability resets so following our priority feels kinda awkward sometimes when it comes to spending our chi and generating it.

FSK I think should be in the class tree(or just baseline) as well instead of on the spec tree but thats personal preference. Not having FSK feels awful but I also dont like spending a spec talent point on FSK instead of a damage talent in the tree. Inner Peace seems like a really odd talent to incorporate as well when Ascension is right near the top. Especially with it only being 10 energy.

Just some random thoughts.

Edit: Also are we just dumping hit combo? Pretty sure I didn’t see that either. I get how it can feel clunky sometimes but I did enjoy maintaining hit combo sometimes between pulls by using fsk and other abilities at times.

1 Like

I know I can be highly criticized for this, but here goes: as long as I can call myself a monk (AKA since Pandaria) on rare occasions I’ve used Transcendence and Transference (the latter, by the way, is not received when the talent of the former is purchased making -a unusable). I happen to find it bizarre having to learn Transcendence in order to learn the Ring of Peace.

The point Sixty raised is very relevant: both EE and Fist of the White Tiger should be somewhere in the tree, and similarly, I think the Last emperor’s capacitor effect and talent that makes the Touch of Death spread to 4 other targets shouldn’t be in the talent tree: the first one because it’s useless and the second one because it’s very unbalanced.

There’s my advice: we need a rework on the bottom-right of the three, swapping Night Fae talents for the Kyrian talents to enphatize the single-targetting, then exchanging Last emperor’s capacitor for Fist of the White Tiger.

FSK, by the way, was ever one WW skill, then I not agree that’s should be on the main class tree.

7 Likes