FEEDBACK: Monk Class Changes

I understand that idea. It could be an interesting option to Purify more overall, but you already Stagger 75%-85% of Physical damage taken which is a big portion of that initial hit. What could be interesting is merging that idea into a defensive CD such as Fort Brew to make it 100% Stagger for that duration (it’s already like that but not 100% stagger, not sure the exact number in SL tho).
Also, having both short duration 95%-100% stagger for 3-4sec + Purifying Brew would most certainly lead to imbalance.

The point of damage mitigation is to reduce stress on your healer and therefore ‘‘make your healers job easier’’ :wink:

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That is not at ALL what I am seeing.
From the Shadowlands alpha, the base stagger you have is based off of your Agility.

Your Shuffle increases that base percentage by 75%

That caps your stagger at 65% WITH SHUFFLE ACTIVE on the Alpha.

In MY thought process. Ironskin brew would increase that number to around 75-85% stagger. Keeping it FIRMLY in the realm of Balance. and not reaching 100% stagger. Ever.

My whole concept for re-implementing Ironskin brew is based on the Idea that Stagger is going to softcap at around 60-70%

Perhaps you and I have been arguing over different numbers. If so, I’m very sorry for any misunderstanding. However perhaps now you understand my reasons for wanting to implement Ironskin brew back into the Brewmaster toolkit. Providing armor, dodge chance, more stagger or anything to deal with that remaining 35% of incoming damage.

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You believe 75-85% off of a hit with an active mitigation ability is within the realm of balance? When you hit shield of the righteous your armor doesn’t suddenly mitigate 75-85% damage, more like 60-65% (don’t forget what you’re seeing on the character sheet armor damage reduction tooltip doesn’t account for the extra levels bosses get either). Maybe a two minute cooldown that could do something like that, but not an active mitigation ability atop of having 100% uptime on shuffle while near the boss.

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Brewmaster Points:

Noticed first off the current build of alpha still requires a 2h weapon, one of the posts earlier in the month noted they would be able to dual wield should they wish. As for the current debate on the brewmaster;

Stagger is designed as such to be a scaling mitigation, increasing by greater amounts with the more agility you have. Liianas is arguing a point to return Ironskin brew, a point I whole I personally am 100% AGAINST. Ironskin brew was/is a tedious mechanic at best making an already powerful tank neigh unkillable in a skilled players hands. In the current live environment you are able to take an absurd amount of punishment on a brewmaster. The celestial brew coupled with a skilled player’s understanding of how to best utilize the bonus absorb will still allow for those moments of enduring a massive blow. The key difference here being that it is no longer a constant effect.

The shuffle mechanic requires the monk to actively be engaged in combat to maintain a defensive advantage creating in my opinion a more believable “class fantasy” (a bullsh$t idea in my opinion to push your vision of fantasy on another person). Shuffle lasts 4 seconds per application (attack ability), Ironskin brew has a base duration of 11 seconds per application creating that 100% uptime without even needing to be in combat. BORING, as someone else attested it’s a mindlessly easy mechanic that any player should be able to grasp removing the skill/challenge from the class. IF you are going into a fight knowing there are going to be situations where you need that extra bolstered defense I suggest taking the Dampen Harm talent. It performs much the way you are proposing Ironskin brew be re-introduced as.

Clash: This was a great ability for mob control in MoP and I am glad to see it’s return. I’m not sure if I missed this but I don’t think anyone has yet to point out it does force the mob to MEET you halfway allowing for some positional control without having to deal with the janky ring of peace in addition to ROOTING the mob and all creatures around it. It’ll definitely prove to be a huge boon running keys and other content with situations of needing to interrupt a cast or move a mob from a pool of death/healing.

Having Spinning Crane kick as-well as Rushing Jade Wind seems like a waste of a talent space, I’d much rather see something else in place of Rushing Jade Wind that might offer some competition to Exploding Keg. Special Delivery is still as annoying as ever given it’s pension to fly off and hit something you’re not engaged with or drop on a freshly CCd target.

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Warrior can easily achieve 85-90% damage reduction with Ignore pain and Shield block.
So yes.

The ability to stagger 80~% worth of damage for 2 or 3 seconds, at the cost of being able to purify afterwards does seem balanced.

I’m aware that CURRENT Ironskin brew is Boring. Which is why im proposing solutions to fix it without just removing it from the toolkit and making it a constant passive. That’s all shuffle is.

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So balance monks around an outlier instead of bringing the outlier inline with everyone else, I see. Sounds fine, makes sense. Of course, that’s if you’re statement were true, but they can’t keep shield block up 100% and they definitely can’t keep ignore pain up 100%, but sure we can go with that idea. If that’s the case, it seems to me, it would be more logical and more fun to reduce the warriors down instead of pumping the monk up.

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Homogenization is bad. It always will be.
I don’t want an RPG where all the classes are the same.

Charge, Demoralizing shout + Booming voice, Shield Slam.

That’s enough rage for 2 Shield Blocks.
During which time you can activate an Ignore pain that wont quickly be broken due to your shield blocks.

Then Activate Bolster, giving you another 12 seconds of Shield block. During which time 100% of rage can be dumped into ignore pain.

After which point you will have generated another charge of shield block, as soon as that cooldown wears off, even with 0 percent haste.

Leading to a continuous 30 seconds of around 90% damage reduction. Without even using Shield Wall, and using almost all of your rage on Ignore Pain.

So, I suggest that Ironskin brew should Increase armor and give around 85% stagger for about 3 Seconds.
Which wouldn’t even NEGATE the damage, just put it into your stagger meter so you feel it later. It would allow for even bigger purifies and even bigger celestial brew shields.

All of which would function as a reward for playing the specialization well.

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You need to look up the definition of homogenization. Balancing an outlier is not homogenization.

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Uh… Yes it is.

By reeling in an outlier, you force everything to be closer to the norm.

If you balance every tank spec around the Median variable, then you are Homogenizing tank specs.

But I don’t want to argue semantics. I just don’t want my class’ only gimmick being the Purify/Celestial brew combo, Especially if it comes at the cost of the “charge juggling” mechanics we had earlier.

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If your definition of homogenization is that tanks are relatively balanced on how much damage they can survive, then yes the game should be homogenized because the opposite of your definition is that some tanks should be able to take more damage than others which means some tanks are bad at their role.

Additionally, your warrior cooldown run through example also just coasted a 2 minute cooldown into the mix like it was a rotational ability and as I said earlier, maybe a 2 minute cooldown to do what you suggested for brewmasters would be a good idea, but not as a rotational concept.

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Did you forget that Staggering damage doesn’t negate the damage in any way?

You still have to take that damage. Just later.

If the ability to stagger more damage comes at the cost of purifying that damage, then it creates an interesting dichotomy of risk and rewards. Something that is completely and totally lost on this rendition of brewmaster.

I was SO excited to see this rendition of brewmaster with Celestial brew.
But not if it comes at the cost of any choice, or consideration for shared charges between your brews.

The Easiest change would be to have Celestial Brew also have multiple charges, and share those charges with Purify. The Interesting nautre of brewmaster comes from choosing to take less damage now, Or less damage later.

Different will never be equal. And that’s just the facts.
The tanks can be good at different things.
For instance. Paladins are way better against magic damage dealers. But worse against constant physical damage than a monk.

It is MUCH Better design for an RPG to have tanks that are better at different things, and not a bunch of tanks that do the same things.

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I think what you’re forgetting is that you’re ironskin brew effect is now baked in. You get to purify more often and should now theoretically take less damage than you were taking before. You have an absorb you didn’t have that is reduced by attacking which keeps shuffle up which makes you stagger an amount that is close to what ironskin brew did (not quite there, but that can be tweaked if needed) and you get to purify more than you did before.

It actually feels like they flipped purify and ironskin out. So right now I’m hitting purify about every ohh 5 seconds and celestial like I otherwise would have hit purify. I appreciate you wanting a choice there, but there’s no choice on live. You keep ISB up 100% of the time and use whatever is left over to purify, that’s not really a choice.

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It’s now a passive. That’s bad.
You get the majority of your mitigation simply for hitting your rotational buttons.
It feels uninteractive.

Purify should be used when needed, like a tanking cooldown, to remove large amounts of stagger. Not just to keep it on cooldown because you have nothing else to do.

If anything they should swap Celestial Brew and Purify.
Make celestial brew the one you use frequently to negate incoming damage, and make purifying brew the one with the longer cool down to promote using it correctly and getting as much value out of your one purify as possible.

Purify shouldn’t be homogenized to be basically the same as Shield Block or Demon Spikes. It should be something you consider using to get as much value as possible.

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You don’t have to hit it purify on cooldown, you can reserve it like DKs do, who also just get their damage mitigation by hitting their abilities. Celestial brew is when you choose to hit it after you purified something big and the Nizuoa will do more damage if you purify something big etc. I dunno, I’m sorry you don’t like it, but they’re strong and don’t need another button that makes them even stronger. Perhaps a brew that shares it’s cooldown with purify that is offensive instead so you have that choice you’re looking for (like a paladin choosing SotR or WoG)

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I didn’t choose death knight. I chose monk.

Okay, But hear me out here.

Monk, on the Alpha has multiple things that involve using Purify correctly, using purify to cleanse as much stagger as possible.

Wouldn’t it then make MORE sense for Purify to be the one with the 30 second cooldown? So you consider exactly when you can BEST use that purifying brew?

Alternatively Celestial brew is more consistent and instant than Purify. So you should have 2 charges of it. One as a safety net, and one to use when you land that BIG purify.

This would provide the same synergy, but make much more sense from a practical perspective, and allow you to really bank up a lot of stagger to land as strong of a purify as possible.

It would ALSO make Black Ox Brew and Celestial Flames much stronger picks.

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Bah, I have realm first monk, I chose monk too and the iteration of monk with ironskin is not the OG brewmaster man. Purifying more often lowers their damage taken and allows Blizzard to tone the smoothing effect that stagger has so that they’re not so dominant in raids while actually giving them a strong toolkit nonetheless. That shield from celestial brew is probably not going to scale all that well anyway since it scales with attack power. Sure it’s amplified by stagger purification, but it’s based on your stagger % not the stagger damage itself and is capped as a multiplier of 400% so it’s not like you’re getting stagger damage that was purified ADDED to the celestial brew. Later on celestial brew is going to get relatively weaker and weaker I’m afraid and I wouldn’t want to put the majority of my eggs in that basket.

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So you are ok with your class being mostly passive? Except for Purifying brew being your one mitigation tool. And celestial brew, which is inherently tied to Purifying brew.

It honestly feels like a 1 button tank spec. Because everything is passive except for Purifying brew, and Celestial brew, which you only use immediately after purifying.

But if you like your complicated spec being reduced to a single button. Then be my guest.
You could just Macro Purifying brew and Celestial brew together, and you would be playing your specialization right 99% of the time.

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Your suggestion doesn’t fix it, just flips it from brewmasters take less damage now all the time but more upfront damage to they’re immortal as long as they have a healer. My suggestion was a choice between more offense when they felt like they didn’t need and more defense when they felt they needed that. Yours is just shifting the responsibility of staying alive to your healers. That bubble isn’t going to scale like you think it will so it’s not a ‘safety net’ . Also, you don’t have to use Celestial brew immediately after purifying, it’s like a 14 second buff the purify puts on you.

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Yes. That’s what being a tank means.

At least I would actively be hitting mitigation buttons instead of just doing my Rotation and using Celestial brew on cooldown, right after a purify.

Something you would only ever use if the boss was incapacitated or in a damage window.

But you only want to use it when you have a good number of stacks of that Buff.

It’s not a constant mitigation tool. It’s a reward for using purify correctly.

Purify, which is your only constant, short cooldown, instant mitigation tool.

1 button spec. You have 1 tanking button.
Celestial brew is a reward for hitting that 1 button correctly.
So is Niuzao.

And fortifying brew makes that 1 button more effective.

I Like my Tanks to have more than 1 significant, short cool down mitigation ability.
It’s why I don’t play Death Knight.
I don’t like my entire spec being focused around Death Strike, and I don’t like my entire spec being focused around Purifying brew either.

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Niuzao takes some of your stagger. Zen meditation has its uses. Breath of fire is a damage reduction ability as well. DKs have many shortish (what exactly are you calling ‘short’ exactly?) mitigation abilities including AMS, rune tap, and vampiric blood.

No it’s not. A tank draws threat and has tools to help mitigation damage, not automatically be immortal because they selected the tank role.

That’s quite wrong too, you do damage whenever you can whether it be because you’re offtanking, or because you’re healers aren’t having to deal with other stuff so they can focus more on you.

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