FEEDBACK: Monk Class Changes

They cant increase the celestial brew cooldown or you would have no active mitigation which would be an absolute disaster. The real problem right now is because the brew stacks arent tracked easily - theres no easy way to tell how strong your celestial brew is going to be, so you just use it every X seconds.

4 Likes

You get a buff unless this changed in the most recent build. It seems like you get +1 stack for purifying at green stagger, +2 for yellow, and +3 for red.

3 Likes

Honestly its still hard to keep track of. Im not sure how but they need to make it easier to track, and they need to make the size of the shield easier to track. Right now it feels like both of these things will need addons.

4 Likes

After playing monk on live and Alpha I’m genuinely confused as to what the monk class fantasy is. It feels like monk’s playstyle is designed to just be: Demon Hunter but harder to play and lower performance. There are so many abilities that are a 1:1 analog between the classes that it’s genuinely baffling to me how one sided the comparisons are.

Examples: Roll is a worse version of Fel Rush, Fists of Fury is a worse version of Eye Beam, Tiger Palm is a worse version of Demon’s Bite, Leg Sweep and Chaos Nova are basically a wash, Paralysis is almost always a worse version of Imprison, Touch of Karma is INFINITELY worse than blur, Mystic Touch and Chaos Brand are a wash depending on composition, Windwalking is a worse version of the passive Demon Hunter Mastery (as an example the character I’m posting on is actively avoiding mastery and still has 30% move speed from it).

Storm Earth and Fire

Avoiding 1 to 1 comparisons, Demon Hunters have Metamorphosis which is a much more satisfying cooldown than Storm Earth and Fire. I’ve tried to play Windwalker on live servers and it’s infuriating how awkward and glitchy SEF is. In dungeons like Freehold and Siege of Boralus your clones love to rush down any mob that is “in combat” with another NPC which can accidentally pull swathes of the dungeon. Sometimes the clones just stand there doing nothing when you pop FoF leading to a DPS loss on one of your major cooldowns. I can’t fathom how this ability has remained in the game in this state for as long as it has. There’s an obvious replacement available too, just make Serenity baseline and just remove SEF from the game completely. If it’s that much trouble to work with, just get rid of it, don’t let a spec suffer because its major DPS cooldown is fundamentally broken.

Fists of Fury

Why do we need a channeled ability? Why can’t this ability just be instant cast in a cleave in front of us? The animation is abysmal and just isn’t fun to press, and barring Demon Hunter’s Eye Beam, which is exceptionally stronger and synergizes with their toolkit, there are no other melee specs that have a channeled ability contributing this heavily to their damage. For another comparison to Eye Beam, it’s so hard in big packs to hit everything you want because the range is so short and as a kicker, the visual is HORRIBLE in indicating what is and isn’t in range. This ability could function like blade dance with a flashy animation when you press it without locking you into the channel bar for the duration of the ability. Rotationally, FoF just halts any inputs. It feels so boring to press FoF and just take my hands off my keyboard as my character flails around. It makes me want to prioritize haste so the channel is shorter so I can actually play the game more.

Summoning

Cursorily related to the above complaints about SEF, in Shadowlands we’re looking at another major problem. With the change of Touch of Death and the addition of Invoke Xuen, monks have no DPS cooldowns that are about them doing something cool. They’re all about summoning some awkward, AI controlled minion to hit things for us. I don’t know about anyone else, but when I think of a skilled martial artist I don’t think of them asking their buddies to help out, I imagine them as being the skilled fighter themselves. It completely hampers both the class fantasy and the playstyle from having these awkward summons be such a large part of our damage output. If I wanted to play a summoner, I’d play a Demonology Warlock or Beast Mastery Hunter. This is even worse with the Venthyr covenant ability giving us a THIRD major DPS cooldown that just summons things to fight for us. At this rate I’ll just be standing at the mission table in 2 expansions telling my followers to participate in raid for me because I don’t personally contribute to any of the damage my class outputs.

Look, I want to like WW monk, I love the changes made to Brewmaster in the alpha and it feels great to play, but I want to main a class that has a fun to play tank and DPS spec because I’m not always tanking, and right now I’m getting my DK ready for SL because WW has been having an identity crisis since its inception and is currently “Demon Hunter minus the fun and numbers”.

66 Likes

There’s some major issues with your design when the first thing i thought of when logging on WW is of the diablo immortal announcement. Is this an out of season april fools joke?

WW is gutted, completely, utterly, and laughably gutted. Nothing even remotely close to the original design exists on the class, and to the wild detriment of the overall spec.

Simply put, a burst class can’t have fists of fury(with its full stun). The solution is not to remove the stun from fists of fury, but to reduce the dependence on burst as a whole for the spec. Follow that change through just about every patch since 5.2 given to WW and you’ll realize how we ended up with this garbage. Just undo the overwhelming majority of them.

Reward the player, not the spec. Currently, there’s not even a way to play outside of your cooldowns. You run in, leg sweep, SEF, blow every cooldown, and try to kill something. Minor tweaks to touch of death, adding the ability to use your 2h transmogs do nothing.

The entire chi energy setup should facilitate, and reward pooling resources and prepping for burst, not simply slapping down cooldowns and solving the issue. Refocus the damage from cooldowns into the overall kit and you have room to make the class enjoyable.

The spec needs a rework, not a few things slapped onto it to pretend you solved the issues and retain the playerbase. WW feels garbage to play now, and garbage to play on alpha. Nothing has been changed.

34 Likes

General Windwalker Feedback

After playing Alpha for a while now there is something that has become very clear to me. We are martial artists and yet with the loss of Galeburst from Touch of Death we no longer have any personal big damage cooldowns. Every single DPS CD we have, outside of Serenity (Which is never picked due to WDP anyways), is now related to a pet. I’m not really sure what Blizzard is going for here in regards to fantasy. I am the martial artist. I want to do the big damage. Instead we have SEF, Xuen and now Venthyr doing it for us. If you were to use all 3 at once we’d have 7 pet summons out at the same time. Why? How is that a martial artist fantasy? Dennistus summed this up pretty well, 2 posts above mine under his summoning section.

If I had to sum it up SEF is fine I suppose, at least the player has to do something to make use of it. Venthyr just doesn’t make sense at all to me, how is it fun to summon non-controllable dead monks? As for Xuen… he was fine back in MoP but now 5 expansions later? 8 years later? It’s honestly a terribly boring spell, the visual is about all it has going for it as it has no player interactivity what so ever.

Covenant Feedback

Covenant abilities. I don’t really know what to fully say about these. I haven’t found any of them super fun to use to be honest, but they’re still a bit buggy so maybe this’ll change. None of them really seem to fit the martial artist fantasy in my personal opinion. You’ll also notice an overarching theme I’ll be mentioning in 3 of the 4 in relation to extra resources. I’m not really sure what Blizzard is going with by giving us all this Extra/Refund resource stuff which conflicts with our Mastery / Hit Combo.

Kyrian Covenant - Weapons of Order

This spell isn’t the most exciting thing to use in my opinion. It does however scream PvP usefulness. I can see this being the go-to WW PvP Covenant.

  • Still two bugs here I mentioned in my 4/9 post which remain unfixed. GCD is 1.5sec and RSK isn’t reducing Chi costs.
  • The ability appears to function fairly well for BRM and MW. It feels like it was better designed for them in general because an ability reset mechanic works better for those specs. Resetting an ability for WW doesn’t really help us much due to the nature of our Mastery.
  • The ability heavily conflicts with itself. It grants a +Mastery buff and resets RSK CD on use. You know what you can’t utilize after the RSK CD reset? Your mastery. You cannot cast RSK -> Kyrian -> RSK without breaking your Mastery or Hit Combo. For this reason I’d ask that Weapons of Order count as a Monk spell so we don’t lose Mastery/Hit Combo.
  • It’s not working yet but the Chi cost reduction after RSK. I don’t know what the intent here is. You’re giving us a +Mastery buff but then also giving us too many resources at the same time. We simply don’t have enough Chi spenders to utilize the extra resources AND make use of our passive at the same time.

Night Fae - Faeline Stomp

This spell definitely has potential but it could use just a little bit more, or a couple tweaks, to make it perfect. In addition this is one of the most visually impressive spell effects I have ever seen in Warcraft, I’m impressed.

  • We’re likely many months away from tuning but this spell could use a bit more damage. Currently it feels like throwing a wet noodle at a bunch of targets and watching it bounce off them harmlessly.
  • The ground effect you can stand in for the CD reset is placed a decent distance away from the Monk. This forces immediate movement which could be undesirable and thus I’d ask the spell effect start directly beneath the Monk for quality of life purposes.
  • The CD reset mechanic feels amazing. I was able to use Faeline stomp 5 times in a 25 second period which resulted in 5 different visually impressive ground effects at the same time. This felt great. However… the low CD of the spell itself on top of the CD reset mechanic, just as it did for Kyrian Weapons of Order, once again conflicts heavily with the WW Mastery passive. For this reason I’d ask that Faeline Stomp count as a Monk spell so we don’t lose Mastery/Hit Combo.
  • Lastly, the Chi / Energy spheres. I didn’t really find a use for these as we can’t effectively utilize extra resources on WW and keep our Mastery / Hit Combo intact. Additionally these spheres spawn all over the place, including off to the sides and not even on the very ground effect we’re being asked to stand on to reset the ability CD. I really don’t like having to run around like a deranged lunatic picking up spheres other players can’t see and thus have no idea what we’re doing. My suggestion? Since Expel Harm in its current state doesn’t give us Chi like it used to in MoP it could be enhanced to pull in all Chi/Energy/Heal spheres like it does for BRM. This would work well with the 3 Chi spheres from Touch of Death also.

Necrolord Covenant - Bonedust Brew

I don’t have a lot of say about this ability right now. For Windwalker it appears to be heavily bugged and thus I can’t really test it effectively.

  • The Spinning Crane Kick portion of the spell appears to be bugged. Every time I had Bonedust brew in Torghast it refunded 1 Chi on SCK cast as long as it hit at least 1 target, even if I never actually used the Bonedust Brew at all. Simply having it caused SCK to refund 1 Chi at all times.
  • I was never able to get the Multistrike part of the spell to work and if it did work it wasn’t obvious in the Combat log, visually or with any sort of audio.
  • Assuming the Multistrike portion did work it’s currently a percent change to do extra damage. If you roll bad RNG you could literally use this Covenant ability… for nothing? What if the Multistrike never procs the entire 10 second duration. I can imagine that’s going to feel extremely bad.
  • Lastly, back to the overall Covenant theme about resources. Chi refund. Once again I’m not sure of the intent here. While nice I just can’t see an effective way for Windwalker to utilize their Mastery and the extra resources at the same time.

Venthyr Covenant - Fallen Order

All of my original feedback on this from 4/23 still stands, minus the original #4 about the visual and audio feedback since it received updated spell effects. In general it feels like another SEF with all the bugs of SEF and more. Additionally this spell really does not fit the Monk theme. Why are we summoning dead monks again? Recapping 4/23 post below:

  • You can’t control the Fallen Monks, what they do, which monks you get or the order they come out of the mirror. This is a little too much RNG for me.
  • Many times while using this ability the summoned Monks have stood around doing nothing for their entire 6-8 second duration.
  • The Tiger/Ox Monks use abilities to get to their targets but in many cases they seemingly don’t use them and just run towards the target. This is a loss of almost 1-2 seconds, out of the 6-8 second duration, that they’re not doing anything at all.

Lastly, with the assistance of smarter monks than myself from the Monk discord, and many wow logs, we also confirmed some concerning issues with the spell.

  • If you use Storm, Earth and Fire alongside Fallen Order, the Fallen Monks have their damage reduced by -55% due to SEF. In all cases its better NOT to use SEF at all while Fallen Order is up if you want to utilize Fallen Order to its fullest.
  • If you use Serenity the Fallen Monks do 20% more damage while the Serenity buff is up. While nice, I can’t imagine this is intended either.
27 Likes


We have the choice to play around it, or play around mastery, and with the relative strength of Rising Sun Kick compared to the rest of the kit even without the reset cast being factored in I still think it makes more sense to worry about the ability over the mastery.

None of these break hit combo ( or need to ) but if you were playing with Dance of Chi’ji or Rushing Jade Wind I think you could ignore Mastery on your Tiger Palm entirely to setup a good window. It’s really clean honestly. With each of the three talents the longest delay happens with FoWT and baseline it’s not enough to make you lose a cast so I’m expecting the Chi cost reduction to still improve how it’ll feel overall.

Ascension felt the smoothest, unsurprisingly, but the resources were there for RJW or additional blackout kicks without needing to delay or wait for your next TP, RSK, or RSK/FoF overlap. AoE felt pretty clean with all of them as well but tracking your Chi reduction buff is going to be really important.

It may feel worse at 120 ilvl than it will at higher haste levels but you can definitely spend through the entire 30 second buff with all the talent options.

Serenity is the only thing I didn’t bother playing around with yet.

Whenever dungeon gear is available I’ll do more with it probably. There are 2 identical Agi/Mastery flat trinkets, I think one might be an error, a NYI on use, and one haste proc trinket that I want to take a look at first.

No one is saying it isn’t strong–they are saying it is designed very poorly. And it is. The Chi cost reduction seems to make it an incentive to spam BoK (which now costs 0 Chi) to quickly reset RSKs, but that style does not benefit from the +Mastery. So you play around the +Mastery and get zero benefit from the RSK cooldown reset and an incredibly reduced benefit from the Chi-cost reduction.

The ability accents two different playstyles and that shouldn’t be the case. Users should not be confused what you are suppose to do with a talent/ability.

3 Likes

What part of the ability is designed poorly?

The Chi reduction mechanic is not working so that is speculative at best. The most likely scenario is that it’ll reduce the Chi cost of abilities down to a minimum of 1.

With a 9 second RSK cooldown you’ll get 15 seconds of the buff which is misleading to a degree. Roughly 6 seconds of the actual buff will be spent inside FoF channel with the last global in each being a BoK. The second Rising Sun Kick under the buff, in single target, is the only place where we run into an issue spending depending on how you view it because the only two spenders available to us are Blackout Kick and Spinning Crane Kick, and the third Rising Sun Kick will again be spent inside a FoF. This isn’t a resource flood and alternating between BoK / SCK & Tiger Palm is not new.

This is probably the most likely version of the ability I can think of outside of a few intended or unintended interactions with talents. Until I see something that truely makes no sense I don’t agree that the design is bad in regards to it.

  • The screenshot above that I linked is playing around mastery.

  • It also gets benefit from the reset.

  • The chi cost reduction doesn’t apply until the first Rising Sun Kick after using the covenant ability.

You should be able to get 3 casts minimum, even if you were for some reason slow on the first RSK, through BoK, and a Rising Sun Kick at 1 second left on the Covenant ability should theoretically still apply the chi cost reduction buff for the next 5 seconds even if the covenant mastery buff ends.

There is zero value lost anywhere other than your channel time on Fist of Fury.

Breaking Mastery is not a playstyle it’s a choice when the value of an ability outweighs the value of that abilities damage. You’ll never solve this problem unless you make every ability as cut and dry and boring as possible with zero interactions at which point I’d consider the Legion rework to be a massive failure.

I don’t know what the confusion behind the ability is. Everyone knows how mastery works so why is so much focus and energy being directed towards the double Rising Sun Kick?

Where is the incentive to double cast it?

You say “we know it’s strong” but getting mastery value from the RSK reset on covenant is going to do more damage than rushing into your channel of FoF and yet everyone still wants to do it?

How can you knowingly use an ability wrong by saying it’s unintuitive but you know exactly how Mastery works and why you shouldn’t do it in addition to having absolutely no reason to do it? Not unless you wanted to Mortal Strike two targets or something but there are more effective ways to do that in most scenarios.

At a reduced benefit. Instead of completely resetting the cooldown, it could reset it to 3 seconds for the same effect but not confuse new players.

Which is unintuitive because the RSK cooldown reset makes new players think they should be applying that reduction ASAP even though, again, the +Mastery does not benefit that RSK unless you weave another global into it.

Because it’s a poorly designed package of words. The ability should flow well together. You get a RSK CD reset which you do not cash in until 1-2 globals later, that’s bad design (see: the entire reason they made Blade Flurry do damage on-cast now, because for the first global of Blade Flurry you are not getting any benefit from pressing it), you get Chi-cost reduction from RSK but because of the +Mastery a new player would not understand whether they should be spamming 0-cost BoKs for more RSKs or not (because the Chi-cost reduction is rather meaningless otherwise).

You are essentially asking how can a bad player be confused by a bad worded ability, which you knew the answer before even asking.

6 Likes

Locking it behind a cooldown isn’t going to make it any more friendly for a new player than snapping it to a lower cooldown value.

Right now the most optimal way to use it is to just cast the ability on cooldown.

Change it to a flat reduction and the most optimal way to use it will be to prioritize the # of casts you can gain.

It’ll start functioning like a pre hotfix Emerald Nightmare / ToV Serenity-lite where you’ll likely line your next FoF up with the first RSK that fits the criteria of not overlapping with FoFs cd, so you can get as much value from BoK after the RSK Chi reduction from WoO, FoF in RSK downtime post buff which should still net 2 FoF casts under mastery buff, and then get the largest snap value out of RSK which will be right after a full cast as close to Weapons of Order coming off cooldown as you possibly can get it.

All of that to fix the problem of a cooldown reset at the start of a pull?

The least complicated aspect of the reset is the reset itself. What a new player will likely struggle with when using this covenant is the actual spending of resources inside of the buff because they will not have the familiarity within the spec to begin pooling before hand. Getting the buff will happen naturally and everything that happens after that is reliant on how you planned for it.

The GCD & How it feels to press in that moment are valid arguments as well as the point Tradu made in where it FEELS wasteful even if its not.

The largest issue here to me starts with the fact that it’s a 1.5 GCD which doesn’t make any sense and slows things down significantly when pressed.

When your sitting there using any method of tracking cooldowns using either your BaseUI, WeakAuras, or something else you’ve set up, the physical action of hitting buttons or mentally waiting for the GCD while visually seeing that your base kit is all ready to be used take the momentum behind an offsenive cooldown away and remove the gameplay from that actual ability entirely.

1.5 on Covenant 1.0 on baseline can actually feel like much longer than that .5 second with how windwalker is played most times.

If it were possible to instead take a hit on the total # of resources that could be provided, which would hurt how the covenant performed on AoE quite a bit which would be fine with how AoE is being capped anyway, then I’d suggest an alternative to how the Chi cost reduction works to instead reduce the cost of your next Rising Sun Kick or something along those lines to bring more of the gameplay focus back to what the button does when you press it and not just what your going to do afterwards.

1 Like

I think it should make your RSK’s free during its duration. This doesn’t make players think they should spam BoK since BoK would still cost Chi and instead makes them think “oh fun, I get to save Chi 3 times during the duration and can plan high Chi usage following an RSK”. It is more intuitive even if it ends up playing out the same.

1 Like

What about free RSK during it’s duration, along with RSK triggering a second time as the secondary effect? Legion artifact had the double RSK, they brought it into BFA with ‘Glory of the Dawn’ as well. They’re obviously fans of it so may as well bring it to Shadowlands in some form too. I’ve always enjoyed the double trigger myself, it fits the martial artist theme, looks cool and sounds great.

1 Like

That may be fine. Trading power in FoF & SCK (through the reduced chi costs) in favor of more power in RSK. It’s kind of hard to tell anyway with the way most of our covenants are working if one is intended to perform better or worse than another in ST/AoE/Cleave.

The only reason I bring this up is because Bonedust Brew acts less like just an " AoE covenant " and more like it’ll favor any burst damage windows in ST and AoE, which is all monk really does now. I believe with you can go into Serenity with no Chi and come out full, and depending on how SEF procs are going to work you may end up with a substantial bonus (like 40 - 60% more damage on a RSK unless my napkin math is off), so it’s at least got the potential to do well on all fight types.

Feline stomp seems like it may do well for stacked AoE ( like 4+ targets) through the orbs but it’s not anywhere near as strong as a 30% mastery bonus unless they tune the stomp through the heavens on a 30s cooldown. It’s hard to gauge when your getting Chi and Energy orbs.

The only worry I have is that when you look at the covenant and then talent interactions the majority of what we can pick favors high cost ability’s or sitting at high chi & low energy and it makes free abilities just feel awkward as you try to spend what its providing.

I also feel like 2/3 picks may favor Ascension / Hit Combo / WDP over everything else.

Just let us ascend like we did in Hellfire Citadel with the class trinket and make it a 25% chance to trigger a second rising sun kick :joy: that would be great with Serenity too.

Why does Expel Harm cost 5% mana? Expel Harm’s purpose for monk was a cheap ability that generate resources. Why does it cost so much and not even interact with mastery?

I’m convinced the Expel Harm given to WW and MW is a placeholder, or at least I hope it is. It’s current state is basically a copy/paste from BRM without the pulling in orbs portion. It’s not the same Expel Harm from MoP / WoD.

For WW as of patch 5.4 it used to give 2 Chi at the cost of 40 energy and did 50% of the heal as damage to an enemy within 10 yards. Now… it gives no Chi, costs 15 energy and does 10% of the heal as damage to an enemy in 8 yards. It’s simply worse in all regards except the energy cost.

5 Likes

I’ll put this here: can someone take a look at WW scaling and maybe find a way for the only dps spec on the class to not always fall into being obsolete?

I like playing my brewmaster, but there isn’t a tank spot in our raid and the only time WW doesn’t feel like it’s limping into raid is very early expansion and when a huge buff gets slapped on them (Antorus comes to mind). So I end up on literally almost anything else.

9 Likes

Since the RNG of the druid’s convoke the spirits covenant ability is getting looked it, will the rng nature of the fallen order (venthyr monk covenant ability) also be getting looked at? Feels pretty bad to play a mistweaver and get a bunch of windwalker/brewmaster monks.

i thought it was 2 of each. I might be mis-remembering though

Not unless it was changed in an iteration after it’s released and maybe it was. I’ll retest it when it comes through on Thorgast again since my monk I leveled in revendreth is in the constant DC cycle =(