FEEDBACK: Monk Class Changes

Revival doesn’t dispel on mythic Il’gynoth you can use it freely. Blizzard is pretty good at adding spells the the I don't get dispelled by revival list if its going to make the button unpressable.

5 Likes

Adding more numbers to soothing focus does not fix the problem.

Why does the buff drop at all when soothing mist ends? The t17 2pc for monks was upwards of 40% extra multistrike and that tier set was often ignored because channeling soothing mist on 1 target is not good.

Weaving Soothing Mist is a good idea. Just make it so this legendary has a short duration so you can move your soothing mist around and cast other abilities.

3 Likes

I definitely agree with you, a lingering buff would enable more interaction with this legendary. At the moment it seems that you can’t get a good value out of it in all situations (both pve and pvp).

The healing bonus applies to the cleave portion of vivifies, so being able to maintain the buff between the channels or even on multiple targets would definitely be a positive change for this legendary in every type of content (as well as being a positive change for the mistweaving fantasy).
It is worth noting that the cleave vivifies also applies the buff on the target you’re channeling on. So with 2 ReM out we can apply the 3 stacks in one cast (though of course it won’t affect this first cast). While this looks like a bug, it’s not very impactful. I’d rather see it replaced by a lingering buff.

1 Like

Personal feedback on SL WW, from someone that really liked chi explosion hfcwalker, mostly liked antoruswalker, and can’t stand bfawalker.

  • The spec still feels bad without TEB. Capacitor historically does an okay job making chi spending feel like it contributes to a liquid resource, but it’s a poor substitute for tigereye brew. “Keep 3ish abilities on cd and avoid capping either resource” is boring single target that needs some kind of sprucing up-I think tigereye and the mastery we had from siege thru hfc was a great way to do that, but I think I’m in the minority, and I’d be happy to see any attention paid to this problem. BOK cooldown reduction is not enough.

  • Artifact strike is still a gaping hole in the windwalker damage kit. Having known what it’s like to have a full bar of chi’s worth of spenders that all did meaningful damage, it stings to go back. Fist of the white tiger still seems like a cruel joke, replacing a meaty spender with a wimpy builder on roughly similar cd. In a vacuum, my feelings on FOTWT are neutral; I just want something to do with chi besides press BOK for 2 damage twice after every jab for 1 damage.

  • The above point relates to my love for hfcwalker. Having more chi to spend has felt good on WW exactly once in the 6 years I’ve played the spec, and that’s with the combination of chiex, hfc tier and the class trinket making it feel punchy to have extra chi. Artifact was nice for at least feeling like having 5 chi for a burst window was meaningful, and I’d take that if it was offered, but there’s still a big hole in the damage model where the only buttons that matter are rsk fof and wdp, and they can be kept on CD with 0 haste.

  • I still feel like combo strikes is a really boring mastery as long as the two abilities that are capable of failing it on single target are so toothless that the hit combo talent is the only way to make us care about not double tapping tiger palm/blackout kick. It’s time for a new take on this mastery.

  • If we’re insistent on hit combo, maybe we could baseline the talent, reduce its duration, and increase its effect in some fashion, making it more like inner strength so that it feels rewarding to have up but it’s hard to maintain. WWs have been saying that hit combo feels like a restriction more than a bonus since its inception.

Couple of pvp notes.

  • As someone who hit glad once in wod, 5 times in legion and twice in bfa, the spec still feels awful without fist stun. You need to give it back. The current edition of the turbo fists talent is less fun to play against and play with, encouraging people sit on a short cooldown cc like dragon’s breath or storm bolt explicitly to disrupt the channel and encouraging WWs to only attempt to play the game proactively once every 45-60 seconds when we have some ccs. This state of affairs comes at the expense of WWs playing dynamically in a way that actually lets positioning be taken advantage of, and further forces the enemy to play around the damage of the channel reactively instead of doing anything fun with their own tools or letting us do anything fun with ours.

  • On that note, paralysis being such a long cd also feels horrible. Maybe 15 seconds was too frequent, maybe 4 seconds was too long, maybe a deliberate effort was made to keep outlaw out of the pvp meta so that gouge every 10 seconds wasn’t around to make paralysis every 45 seconds look as drippingly silly as it feels, but 45 feels like a wide miss. I’d like to see the duration and cooldown both cut as some kind of compromise to that end, or even shave down the range, something like a 15yd range incap that lasts for 2-3 seconds on a 30 second cd perhaps? Having 1 go every minute that contains a scant 2 short ccs feels more like wading through an irritating scenario than engaging in pvp on my WW.

  • In general, windwalker was at least fine pretty much regardless of tuning for the entirety of wod and legion. It was buffed to the level of absurdity several times, for sure; what I mean is that the spec was functionally immune to damage-related inviability. Doing the same dps as a healer, ww would still be viable if it could play henchman to meta classes with cc tools usable more often than once a minute. This is a niche critically missing from the meta: tons of specs with low armor and high mobility have run rampant for a LOT of bfa because in the absence of golden-age windwalker tools, any team without a rogue has to stand still and take whatever mages/other wws/rogues/dhs feel like doing for however many failed tries the squishy team gets before they run out of mana. The threat of counterplay has vanished, and the game is worse for it.

  • If nothing else, give back charging ox wave as a talent we can use to opt out of leg sweep. Axe tiger tail sweep as a talent nobody has ever taken except to specifically screw over other players using the adaptation trinket talent in 2s, and put the skillshot stun on a 30s cd in its place.

21 Likes

WW Covenant Feedback

  1. Night Fae: The ability is super cool, however I hate having to step up 3-4 yards to be in it.
  2. Venthyr: Its cool, it does absurd damage, however I feel like I’m summoning pets, which feels bad because I’m a monk.
  3. Kyrian: Its been said many times. It’s awkward. I just ignored mastery and it felt better since I hit two in a row, however that’s not the point of the ability then. Idk how to make it better other than it feels awkward to use.
  4. Necrolord: I can hit more SCK’s which i guess is good for AOE. Feels kind of awkward in ST. Not sure how I feel about this one.

Overall, each ability is somewhat awkward. The only one (currently) that is the least awkward for me is the night fae one. It’s stomp, move forward, maybe get a reset, stomp again, etc. The other’s I’m having trouble figuring out how they really interact. Necrolord feels the next best because it changes what I want to do. Venthyr is press and forget and kyrian is press and keep doing whatever you were doing but get some “benefit”.

9 Likes

I agree with all of this. I kinda prefer the Necrolord theme over the Night Fae theme and I’m somewhat split on the class abilities, but Soulshape’s features beat out the Necrolord shield, especially now that they adjusted it to feel faster and a useful blink. If they remove(d) the vanish from Soulshape (please DON’T, Blizzard), I’d probably go Necrolord, but that extra QoL and BG point protection fun is keeping me NF. (Oh yeah, and the Soulshape form collection!)

Blizzard, please make it so the Faeline Stomp caster is standing in it upon cast.

4 Likes

Two points on Monk talents across all specs:

First,
Ring of peace should be baseline at this point for all monks. It has become the iconic monk utility and is basically an always take. In situations where you don’t take it, it’s either useless anyway (e.g. patchwerk boss) or feels like you’re missing a core utility.
This then opens up a rework for that row.

Second,
It has been said many times before and I think people oughta keep saying it: the 15 row is bleh. The abilities really need a bit more oomph, interaction, or decision triggering. At the moment they feel like “I have nothing else to press” spells. I know chi burst gives MW free healing and WW free chi, so it’s not on the bottom of the priority list, but even knowing that, it still feels unimpactful.

28 Likes

Some thoughts about the mistweaver potency conduits:

I find it weird that three of the MW conduits affects healing CDs. Not only their effects do not look powerful at the moment, but they will occur too occasionally in the course of a fight or of a dungeon, further decreasing their value.

The CD reduction attached to the Revival conduit doesn’t look too appealing, especially in raids where most of the time every big healer CD is assigned to a precise timing of incoming raid damage. It might come in handy on a very few occasions where you need your Revival 10-15s earlier, but it’ll be extremely rare. It could be replaced with another effect that fully support the fistweaving playstyle.
The Yul’on conduit (aka Bond, Jade Bond) carries the same issues with its CD-reduction effect, only on a weaker CD. Moreover, picking the Chi-Ji talent makes this conduit completely useless, as it doesn’t reduce Chi-Ji’s CD at the moment. I’d like to know how WWs and BRMs feel about their respective version of this conduit. Though I find it very cool have a conduit with a cross-spec identity, it just looks too weak at this stage.

The Resplendent Mist conduit is the only one with a consistent effect, though it will add more variance to our ST healing with gust of mists already having its own crit chance. It won’t make mastery a more powerful stat by itself, but it’s something. Maybe it could if the proc had some other effect, like making gust of mists pulse around the target. It’s just an idea, but as MW’s mastery has yet to receive some synergies with talents this conduit could be a start.

8 Likes

TBH this is a mood. Though jade bond’s cdr is alright since you’d never assign Yu’lon as a raid cd and can just use it whenever you please. Also the Nourishing Chi is just a big let down as we are not a super heavy hot class and only the bonus from the trait carries over afterwards not that + cocoon meaning low ranks of this are basically not there.

1 Like

Here’s some feedback so far on Brewmaster:

  • General: Currently, brew is in a decent spot defensively. Early on our mitigation will be tied mostly to Celestial Brew while stagger is weaker however as our gear scales up and we get higher levels of stagger I imagine the defensive values of the two abilities will swap in priority.
    However our damage is quite far behind other tanks in AoE situations. A potential solution to this is uncapping the target cap of Spinning Crane Kick for Brewmaster and/or a buff to Keg Smash base damage.

  • Celestial Brew: CB is a really interesting and rewarding addition to the spec. Still has some room for min maxing through your Keg Smash management to have it up for windows of big damage taken.
    It currently feels a little over-tuned (as there are very few instances where a fully charged CB will actually be consumed during the 8 second duration), however it will not scale as well as other forms of tank mitigation throughout the expac due to it being tied to attack power so a nerf now could completely cripple Brew’s mitigation later in the tier, especially since it is our only form of magic mitigation.
    Having it off the GCD would be the main thing I (and a lot of other brewmasters) would like to see, as I’ve often found I will be spamming it during a 0.5 second precast tank crush from a boss and get GCD locked into having to take the hit without mitigation up.

  • Tiger Palm: This ability is in a weird a spot currently. It does less damage than Spinning Crane Kick in single target situations, so the only reason to push it is when you desperately need brew CDR but Keg Smash isn’t up. In legion you at least had the option of stacking the Tiger Palm relic to get the damage to a decent level, however there isn’t anything similar in the conduit system to make TP worth the energy spent on it. A buff here wouldn’t go amiss.

  • Breath of Fire: There is a lot of importance currently in the Beta being placed on BoF uptime (2/4 of the Covenants have BoF baked into their abilities and the Scalding Brew conduit incentivises holding Keg Smash until you have BoF back up) however the ability itself is very lacklustre both in it’s damage and in the damage reduction it provides. This in turn makes the Celestial Flames talent almost never worth picking as it is such a miniscule buff to the reduction. Making BoF a 7.5-10% DR by default and having Flames buff it to 15-20% instead would make it a more interesting/important spell to work into your rotation instead of it merely being a debuff you maintain for more Keg Smash damage.

Potential Bugs:

  • Expel Harm: Currently EH seems to be bugged, in that it no longer shows the number of Gift of the Ox orbs present. Not sure if this is intended.
  • Provoke: As of the latest build Provoke is still applying the movement speed increase to mobs, however the movement bonus is sitting at 0%. I know there was speculation that this effect was being removed altogether however the debuff on the mobs was readded in the last week or two which, in tandem to the datamined rank 2 of the ability for Brewmasters, makes me wonder if this is a bug.
  • Blackout Kick : Blackout Kick no longer applies a stack of our Elusive Brawler Mastery, even though it says that it should on the mastery tooltip in our spell books. That said, it could be intended as it doesn’t say it on the ability tooltip itself.

Overall though, I like the incarnation of Brewmaster on beta over the live version. Stagger is still fundamentally similar (I even prefer the reduction of Brew charges with the addition of Shuffle) however the addition of CB gives the player more agency instead of being a Stagger meat-shield with Celestial Fortune baked in.
An overall buff to damage (notably AoE) and Celestial Brew being taken off the GCD would be enough to put Brew in a good spot before release, as currently it is being dwarfed by other tanks in the damage department.

8 Likes

Feedback on a level 10 windwalker:

This level 10 windwalker asked Chromie to level thru Legion, and arrived at Dalaran, got the Dalaran Hearthstone.

Next quest is the artifact quest “Before the Storm”.

The quest wants me to “Use the Zen Pilgrimage ability to travel to the Peak of Serenity”.

That spell isn’t available at level 10!

3 Likes
BFA Pre-Squish Level Shadowlands Post-Squish Level
20 10
21 10
22 10

It’s gotta be some related error to the level squish values since


starts at level 20 (which is now 10)

Just a bug note regarding Covenants, Venthyr for Windwalker hasnt worked in 2 builds and only does the brewmaster abilities, so as Windwalker your dudes/dudettes are casting breath of fire and sck which hits like a wet noodle since kegsmash isnt on the targets.

1 Like

Hey I am just contributing to the topic based on what I have tested so far.

Touch of Death: Still doesn’t kill the target. Touch of Death can drop the target to one hit but the target is not dead.

Expel Harm: Tool tip indicates it does damage based on the amount healed but this has not been true. Tested it in the maw by Paralysis a mob then being targeted on them and hitting expel harm but no damage and no cc break. Also it does not count towards hit combo. You can get 2 chi then blackout kick, expel harm, blackout kick and our mastery hit combo will be dropped.

2h weapon and fist of fury is still not usable. Devs mentioned that 2h ww is coming but as of now FoF is not able to be used as a WW with a 2h equipped.

2 Likes

Question on Touch of Death not working.

Is it always or just occasionally?

If it is always then yeah there is a major problem.

Occasionally, then it is a little more difficult to figure out the problem. Because one of couple things are happening (there may be more but to me these are the most likely.)

  1. Between you hitting the button for ToD and the game applying it, something healed the mob. So the game registers your HP as damage, but not enough to kill. ( Yes the same thinking applies if you get damaged in that window.)

  2. The mob has some kind of damage reduction.

Windwalker Monk Feedback

Covenant Ability Feedback

Weapons of Order: Interesting design but ultimately feels pretty clunky as WW. The 2 second GCD this incurs on use feels really out of place and should be changed to be in line with the rest of the class. This ability could potentially lead to an unorthodox playstyle which involves spamming Blackout Kick since it costs 0 Chi. Additionally even when using it as intended and not repeating the same spell ad nauseam it tends to lead to overcapping Chi which causes you to want to run Ascension to try to counteract this overcapping which leads into a problem again with the awkward opener nature this spell encourages. In AoE you tend to somewhat ignore the Chi Cost reduction benefit of the spell and just take advantage of the spectacularly long mastery buff which isn’t a bad thing but is food for thought.

Fallen Order: This ability seems out of place for Windwalker as it makes them into more of a summoner archetype which is quite strange but this ability is quite nice to just have a fire and forget button that can do a lot of damage with minimal upkeep but this ability does suffer from the same problems that Storm, Earth, and Fire commonly does in that it is really reliant on Pet AI which is pretty unreliable at times. Additionally for Windwalkers currently this ability does 45% damage if you use it during Storm, Earth, and Fire which is surely a bug but it hasn’t been addressed since it was first reported 3-4 months ago at this point so I wanted to state it again to spread awareness. Additionally I noticed while leveling that the Monks spawned by Fallen Order will automatically attack targets you have used Paralysis on which really makes its usage even more awkward then it needs to be.

Faeline Stomp: It has been difficult to gauge on how much I enjoy Faeline Stomp because it so marred down by so many bugs that haven’t been fixed for months that I’m not sure what the end goal of the spell is the issues I’ve had so far are:

  1. The spell for some reason starts 4-5 yards in front of your character instead of where your character is which causes you to need to backup first before you use it
  2. The spell cannot damage the same enemy more than once
  3. The spell only spawn energy orbs from targets despite the tooltip saying it spawns energy and chi orbs
  4. If you turn while casting this spell it causes the damage and the visual to spawn in the direction you are currently facing instead of where you cast it.
  5. For Windwalker Monks it does not trigger your mastery despite being a spell that will be cast very often which ruins the “flow” of the spec.

That last point is a pretty big one because currently this ability is pretty undertuned damage wise and as a Windwalker it just feels incredibly strange to have an ability that is constantly resetting that isn’t contributing to your mastery. After playing with it for a dungeon I can somewhat understand the logic as it could be possible that you could lose potential casts of the ability if you had to cast a different ability before casting it but that just shows how poorly thought out the ability was for Windwalker monk. The ability’s damage is uncapped in AoE though so it could potentially be useful for M+ as a result if the damage is tuned higher.

Bonedust Brew: Similarly to Faeline Stomp this ability also has not worked for the 4 months that it has been available to test which has caused me to not really have an opinion on it as I cannot test it when it doesn’t work correctly. The issues it has mainly is:

  1. The damage portion of the ability doesn’t work at all as in the multistrike effect never occurs.
  2. The Chi cost reduction on Spinning Crane Kick lasts forever once applied to enemies even after the debuff has expired.

Now while I cannot give feedback on its performance I do think that conceptually this ability is kind of scary in how RNG and swingy it can be. Since we don’t know if this uses RPPM or what have you while its effect is active it could theoretically provide you with a literal 0% damage increase while also providing a huge top end. This is dangerous for an ability like this to exist because it is one where the damage the spec does can be somewhat based on it. I would like to see the percent chance for this to either increase and make it more consistent or add a RPPM effect to it so you are at least guaranteeing a certain number of procs during it.

Legendaries

Fatal Touch: Kind of a boring effect and not really at all powerful on its own. Would love to see the Hidden Master’s Forbidden Touch effect added to this as well (can be used a second time before its cooldown is triggered) to make this effect more useful because as it stands now I don’t see why you would ever want to use this over any other option.

Invoker’s Delight: This effect was working for me when I tested and it gave 12% haste for 15 seconds. I would love to see this effect slightly changed/buffed so that the haste buff lasts the duration of the celestial that you have summoned as It would have a cool theme with it.

Roll Out: Cool utility effect but seems pretty weak because as it stands now it is just a worse version of the Celerity talent but allows you to choose it with Chi Torpedo so it does have some potential but it just seems kinda tame for a legendary effect.

The Emperor’s Capacitor: Glad to see this effect return as it was one of my favorites in Legion but it seems a bit undertuned as an effect and would love to have a QoL effect added to this that allowed you move while channeling CJL when you have this buff as well.

Pressure Release: My favorite of all the WW Monk legendaries by far but its tooltip is kind of a mess. First of all this effect has a max stacks of 30, It triggers off of Spinning Crane Kick and It seemed to be only dealing increased damage to one target it hit and not all of them. I believe this effect should have a max stacks of at least 25 because it is possible to overcap your stacks if you hit 6 targets for all 5 ticks of Fists of Fury, triggering off of Spinning Crane Kick is fine but it can force you to use this effect earlier than you would like to because you need to use SCK to aoe but maybe you would want to save this effect for a bigger and more important aoe moment.

Rushing Tiger Palm: Was not providing the Crit buff on the target when I was able to test it but despite that it felt quite nice to have a ranged dash Tiger Palm and I could foresee this effect being nice for priority damage on Adds in Raids.

Xuen’s Battlegear: My most anticipated legendary effect that was added only to be left disappointed for a few reasons. This is the post nerf version of the Tier Bonus which wasn’t really that powerful or exciting and secondly without the Double RSK hits from the Tornado Kicks artifact trait the CDR effect from this is barely noticeable. If you aren’t planning on adding Double RSK in any fashion I would love to see the CDR from this effect increased from 1.5 seconds to ~4-5 seconds to account for this. Additionally I think the crit chance should be increased as well as 30% seems a bit too low.

As for legendary effects that didn’t make the cut that I would love to see return at some point in Shadowlands would be Drinking Horn Cover. This was a really flexible and fun effect that isn’t present in WW’s toolkit at the moment that would be fun to see return. Overall I really think that the Legendaries are the one bright spot for Windwalker Monk in Shadowlands as everything seems to disappoint.

Baseline Changes

Invoke Xuen, the White Tiger is now baseline: I really like that Xuen is now baseline but now that he is, it highlights a big problem with WW Monk which is that while they have many different cooldowns but none of them interact with each other and individually none of them are particularly interesting. This end result of gameplay is you are pressing your cooldowns without any moment of excitement or thought behind them and just dealing more damage for a short time. This isn’t all bad news because it makes our cooldown usages very flexible but I would like to see Invoke Xuen have an effect added to him to make him more compelling by himself and/or in conjunction with other CDs. I know there was a datamined effect that added the Gale Burst effect to Xuen which would be cool but I fear this may interact negatively with SEF because in my mind it would be similar to Diver’s Folly which negatively interacted with SEF. Additionally I find it strange that Xuen still hits only 3 targets while the rest of the Windwalker toolkit is capped at 6 targets. I would like to see his target capped raised to be more in line with the other spells.

Touch of Death is now a 3 min CD and is more similar to its MoP variant: I’ll admit I was pretty apprehensive about this change at first but after playing with it more while leveling, doing M+, and raiding I can say that this ability is actually pretty useful in situations that WW wasn’t really that great in before. It’s weird that this ability is used like the antithesis to what Legion/BfA version of ToD was. Meaning that you want to use it on an enemy that is near death rather than in Legion/BfA you wanted to make sure that the enemy would live at least 8 seconds for the damage to be done. My sticking points with the new ToD are two fold.

  1. The damage should be buffed because currently you are incredibly incentivized for using this on a non elite target as the spell will deal about 4x the damage vs using it on an elite target.
  2. The Chi Orbs that spawn are somewhat useless and can be really difficult to see/pick up while you are fighting a boss or what have you.

The Chi Orbs effect for Windwalker should be changed to do something else that increases a WW Monk’s damage. There are many ideas that I could give you but suffice to say that almost anything would be better than Chi Orbs as more often than not I tend to ignore picking them up as it will overcap my Chi or I can’t find or get to the Orbs without moving out of melee and losing DPS. Windwalker Monk is not a class that needs an injection of resources every 3 minutes towards the end of a fight. It doesn’t spend more Chi towards the end of an encounter it doesn’t really make any sense to reward them with this as a result. Lastly this is a minor but potentially very important thing for the future. Since Touch of Death was changed to a 3 minute cooldown it should reset when a boss resets as it can be quite important on some boss fights that have adds that spawn quickly at the start of the encounter such as Sire Denathrius.

I’d also like to add that for a 3 minute cooldown Touch of Death is pretty wimpy in damage contribution for WW Monk dealing only ~6k damage when used on a boss which could almost ultimately be ignored going forward.

Fortifying Brew is now baseline: This is a great ability to add to the Windwalker Toolkit as the spec is commonly known to be somewhat frail compared to its other melee compatriots. I am overall happy that the ability is now available for the spec but it does lead into a fairly large problem that I’m not sure is an oversight or an intended side effect which is that while Fortifying Brew reduces damage taken it also increases your Max HP by 15%. This leads to a toxic but maybe necessary early damage optimization of using Fort Brew together with Touch of Karma for a large damage cooldown. This isn’t healthy for the spec and is not a problem with Fort Brew but mainly with Touch of Karma. While using this combination of defensive in Raid Testing Touch of Karma ended up being ~5% of my damage. This is not damage that as a competitive WW Monk player you can leave on the table but at the same time feels wrong from a design perspective.

Expel Harm has returned: Expel Harm is a cool relic from the past versions of WW but right now on the Beta feels super underwhelming. Ultimately it feels you would only ever use this spell if you needed healing and did not have the time to cast Vivify instead. On my ilvl 187 WW Monk it heals for 1,290 and deals 10% of that as damage. This needs to have a resource generation aspect of it attached to and also have its damage buffed via increasing the heal to damage ratio. I think it was datamined to generate 1 chi and that would help tons for using it rotationally. But only dealing 129 damage versus my Tiger Palm which deals more than twice that makes this spell feel pretty bad. In addition I believe this spell isn’t triggering the WW Monk mastery which could very well be a bug.

Fists of Fury and Spinning Crane Kick capped at 6 targets: This is an incredibly weird change and I would love to hear the insight from the developers on why they decided on 6 targets for Windwalker Monk. I do think AoE capping WW Monk is going to really hurt them in the long run because it is a spec that I think has only really shined in AoE situations where its Single Target damage is almost always bad. As a side note if Fists of Fury is going to be target capped then the reduced damage to non primary targets should be removed. It seems like overkill that it be capped at 6 and in addition deal reduced damage to targets besides your main.

Storm, Earth, and Fire

The current iteration of this spell in my opinion and many others is the main source of displeasure when playing WW Monk. It doesn’t make any sense in the WW Monk toolkit and it only serves to frustrate players when dealing with its many, many bugs and pet AI issues. In Legion this ability served a purpose of being a way to apply your Mark of the Crane to many different targets very quickly which gave some excitement to using this spell in AoE. With the changes made to the spec in BfA and now moving forward into Shadowlands this spell doesn’t serve any purpose. If you play the spec for a short while you will become accustomed enough to the mechanics to easily be able to keep up Mark of the Crane on its max of 5 targets. So what does this spell accomplish at this point? If you become more advanced you can utilize the WDP bug where you exploit the last 0.1-0.3 seconds of SEF to gain a large amount of damage, a bug that will become even more important in AoE now with the target caps to other spells. I would very much like to see the MoP/WoD variant of this spell make a return either baseline or via talents to give Windwalker Monk back a very unique raid niche of being a melee DPS that is capable of ranged cleaving. This is something that would make Windwalker more attractive in raid situations and would give them an easily definable niche that the spec desperately needs as right now it seems like a jack of all trades spec that is incredibly dependent on its tuning. As for a base cooldown replacement I would love to see a return of Tigereye Brew that is updated to fit into the Legion rework of the spec as that kind of cooldown was totally unique at the time and gave you a lot of decision making during your rotation on when best to use that cooldown. Or just make Invoke Xuen our main damage CD and buff him considerably to compensate.

Talent Changes

There is only 1 talent change to Windwalker in Shadowlands so far which is pretty disheartening because I and many others believe it’s an area in which Windwalker has a lot of its shortcomings. The spec has a long running issue where it has one set talent build and its talents are super undertuned in power compared to most spec’s talents and really they just feel outdated. They aren’t very interesting or fun even if they were tuned highly. I would highly recommend to the devs to look through the talent tree and give it a facelift because it desperately needs it. Many others in this thread have been stating that WDP should be made baseline but I don’t agree. WDP has been the dominant talent for such a long time that for many of those players it feels foreign to play the spec without it but that just speaks to a very long standing problem of how untouched and uninteresting the talents have been for so long. I think giving the spec multiple options per row and maybe even having the ability to talent into ST talent options would go a long way to somewhat addressing the spec’s poor performance in raid situations.

Dance of Chi-Ji: This returning idea from BfA makes me somewhat sad to see but I know that I am in the minority when it comes to this sentiment. As a long time Windwalker player to see the class’s AoE strength relegated to a RNG proc talent kind of goes against what Windwalker Monk has been for so long: consistent. While it can be fun to get many procs Windwalker runs into an issue where if you get too many procs of this in a row you will inevitably overcap your resources with absolutely no counterplay or pre planning that could have been done to avoid it. It’s currently tuned in such a manner that I believe you want to use this at all times which goes again to the issue that Windwalker doesn’t have talent variety.

Quality Of Life Changes

These are changes that I believe would go a long way to help address problems the spec has to deal with on a daily basis

Being able to cast Spear Hand Strike during Fists of Fury: This is a pretty important issue to me as I mainly do M+ and this issue comes up way too often. With the amount of frequency in which Fists of Fury is cast in M+ and how important Fists of Fury damage is to WW Monk it feels incredibly horrid to have to stop your FoF cast in order to interrupt an important spell cast. Havoc DH and Arms Warrior also encounter this during Eye Beam and Blade Storm but those casts are much less frequent and (usually) not as long so you’re able to account and plan for interrupts before or after those casts. As a WW Monk you are casting FoF every 17-22 seconds depending on how much CDR you get from BoK and haste values and additionally with low haste (which WW tends to normally have) the cast is a whopping 3.7 seconds long. Additionally from a logic perspective it makes sense that Windwalker Monk would be able to Spear Hand Strike during Fists of Fury because its already punching an enemy why can’t they just aim a little higher and interrupt instead? I understand this is an issue that only really affects WW monks that do high M+ quite a bit and might have unintended consequences in PvP but it definitely something I would love to have.

Successful Detox dispels reward energy/chi: After seeing Shadow Priests receive this change I thought it was cool and should be applied to Detox for Monks. There are some dungeons in BfA where there are bosses/trash where you are almost dispelling on CD which can be a pretty big drain on your DPS as Detox casts 20 energy to cast and you are not gaining any DPS from it at all. It would be nice if you successfully dispel an effect with detox if you were refunded the energy cost or have a Chi orb spawn next to you to reward you for dispelling.

Scaling Issues:

There isn’t a one stop solution to solve Windwalker Monk’s scaling problems but there are measures we can take to help improve its scaling across the board and the problems that I could think of were these

Invoke Xuen: Since Xuen is becoming baseline now I think it is a good time to address the scaling problems he has had since forever.

  1. He does not scale with mastery at all
  2. He only scales partially with haste. His auto attacks scale with haste but his lightning happens at set intervals and does not scale with haste.

Changing these two things would help Xuen scale better throughout the expansion and keep him the powerful cooldown that he is meant to be.

Touch of Karma: It is my belief that Touch of Karma should be changed to no longer deal damage baseline. Touch of Karma could be changed to instead have the Good Karma effect baseline where it just applies a Healing over Time effect based on the damage you took during the buff. This is a really big problem with the spec and almost always leads to exploiting this defensive cooldown as much as possible for a damage gain. Additionally when it comes to scaling this ability only scales with 2 stats currently: Stamina and Versatility. As part of our damage budget having it only scale with 2 stats really hurts the scaling of this ability and is a small part of why Windwalker Monk damage scales poorly later on.

Lack of Scaling: Windwalker just has this huge problem where it doesn’t have scaling attached anywhere to any of its abilities via passives or what have you. When you play a destro warlock for a short time you notice they have baked in scaling on their abilities where if they get more critical strike they get more resource or do more damage as a result of this. Windwalker just doesn’t have these passives anywhere in its toolkit and as a result has a hard time keeping up throughout the expansion since it doesn’t scale very well with haste and as just mentioned has no special interaction baseline with critical strike. I would very much like to see something like this baked into Windwalker’s base kit as it is starting to show its age. An idea that I came up with was creating a new passive where if Rising Sun Kick critically strikes, it hits a second time for 25% damage. Baking the beloved Tornado Kicks effect into the spell baseline while simultaneously adding secondary stat scaling for them. Another idea would be changing how Fists of Fury scales with haste instead of decreasing the time spent while channeling it would instead be more similar to Fel Barrage where it would channel for a set amount of time but the more haste you acquired the more hits you would gain. Additionally if Fists of Fury applied a short debuff to the target that caused them to take more damage from your Fists of Fury that could be really cool and would make haste a super powerful stat for Fists of Fury. Now these ideas don’t magically solve the scaling problems this spec has faced and continues to face going forward but it does add some secondary stat interaction that the spec desperately needs so that we do not have to rely on the devs to bandaid buff us each patch to account for our terrible scaling.

Misc & Final Thoughts

Over the past two expansions the art team has been busy at work making the animations and spell effects of all the classes look prettier or feel more satisfying to use one class that has been omitted from these is Monk because of how recently it was added to the game their animations and spell effects were deemed satisfactory and I tend to disagree when we come to Shadowlands. I think one of the reasons many are flocking to Havoc Demon Hunter from Windwalker Monk is that at a basic feel level Windwalker Monk spells feel/look/sound so dated and dissatisfying and I would request that the Art team take a look at our spell animations and tone them up and maybe even give us some new spells that have cool martial arts animations and sounds.

I think what all of us veteran Windwalker Monk players want is some acknowledgment of the problems that we’re complaining about and update us on the direction that the developers want to take the spec because it is very clearly not working anymore and the experiment from Legion has for many of us become stale. The spec still attracts new players to it as at its core it is still an enjoyable spec to play but once you play for a while the golden veneer starts to chip away and you see the colossal problems and holes in the spec that is has been facing for years and it just sucks away any enjoyment you have while playing because you are not sure that these problems will ever be addressed or fixed going forward as the future of the spec is almost always uncertain.

22 Likes

It was in the opening maw scenario and it was every time I used it.

Always failed to kill the mob.

And I used it on cool down on every mob it would light up for. But not once would it actually kill the mob. Sometimes it would chunk the hp off and sometimes they would drop to a single hit of life but never once did it outright kill them.

I see a lot of people calling for the return of Tigerseye brew which is a great idea IF, and a big big if here, you set the stacks to cap at 10. One of the big issues we had during the dark days of WoD when we were basically nerfed every other patch was you were having to balance us around the damage increase from TB because we had it up at all times.

5 Likes

Mistweaver
There is multiple issue i have with the current incarnation of mistweaver.

There is too much emphasize on Essence Font. While i don’t necessary dislike channeled spell. I don’t like this one. We used to have spining crane kick to aoe heal (channeled) or talent in RJW to make it an aoe aura. Now we have the choice of a channel or talent in a longer channel where you can’t do anything else. Thats not something really engaging as a healer. The previous iteration let us choose the way we wanted to play.

Raid cds used to be powerful and revival was a really good exemple of a nice healing cd back in MoP. You used it and you instantly could see those HP bar go up by a huge amount, that was really fulfiling. Now you press revival an the bar barely. We still get this « instant spell » tax that doesnt take into account what other healers can offer on top of their big cds.

Regarding our poor scaling, we really need a change to mastery. At the moment it only affect some of our ST heals. It doesnt fit with the whole MW kit. On top of that, our main spell, renewing mist should have its cd reduced by haste even if its talented.

Speaking of the MW kit, i feel our talents aren’t really exciting. There is only 3 rows that affect our healing ( 2 if you don’t count that atrocious 1st row). All the other row are utilities. While a choice in utility is nice, i feel what could be amazing healing gameplay choices are just average situational utilities. At this point some utilities could be baseline to leave space for real healing talent.

Lastly, we’re currently being carried by some covenants choices (with some bugged one that make the ability actually cool) i hope it doesnt distract the devs from the issues we have since the legion rework.

16 Likes

Mistweaver

While I would love to see more power move away from Essence Font, see the channel of essence font cut in half, and have upwelling deleted as a talent I am not holding out hope for these things.

However, we CANNOT go live with the current mastery we have. MW Monk Mastery is completely unacceptable as is and will prevent MW from ever being a relevant healer that scales with stats as every single other healer does.

I feel like its important to explain just how few of our healing spells even proc our mastery compared to all other healer classes that see their mastery effect every single spell in their toolkit.

Spells that Proc Mastery:

  • Renewing Mists on Hit
  • Vivify Initial Heal
  • Enveloping Mists (very rarely used in raids)
  • SooM Channel (never used)

Spells That DO NOT Interact with Mastery:

  • Essence Font Bolts
  • Essence Font HoT
  • Renewing Mists HoT
  • Enveloping Mists HoT
  • Vivify Cleave Heals
  • Revival
  • Life Cocoon
  • Invoke Yu’lon (New Cooldown)
  • Summon Jade Serpent Statue
  • Refreshing Jade Wind
  • Invoke Chi-Ji (old Way of the Crane)
  • Rising Mist Heal
  • Expel Harm
  • Chi Burst
  • Chi Wave (lol)
  • Every Single Covenant Ability in Shadowlands
  • Every Single Legendary Ability in Shadowlands
  • Majority of Conduits (One Conduit gives a chance to proc a 25% stronger gusts of mists - still requires us proccing Gusts)
23 Likes