FEEDBACK: Monk Class Changes

WW Feedback:

So far this is the best WW has felt since legion, I am a big fan of getting out of BFAs touch window, and has lots of choices with legendarys. Choices with covenants feel good (balancing pending, a few could be the right answer) and I am pretty stoked with how the class feels to play.

First thing however, tiger palm at 50 energy feels awful and slows the spec down way to much, its just not needed we cant smash buttons like other specs but we should never feel resource starved since we have 2.

Right now however its talents are pretty cookie cutter and the only real variable is dance of chi-ji and hit combo on 45 talent row even on Single Target with ChiEX leggo. What I would love to see is Strike of the Windlord and Whirling Dragon Punch get moved to baseline, you can use the ChiEx leggo as a talent (it really is spec enhancing right now and a great playstyle) and do something to lower the energy cost of tiger palm by 5 or 10 for 30 level row. Serenity needs some love, but unsure what the answer is for that, perhaps making it the old Touch of Death window (in a nerfed degree) interaction.

WW conduits feel good, I like the interaction with lowering the cooldown on xuen and big fat fist of fury damage. I think the vers to party node (Call of action venthyr) needs some love for DPS (way shorter cooldown) to give vers dps classes a bit of a carrot to drop the 3 potency tree.

For overall Covenants Nightfae is by far the most fun to play and faeline stomp feels like a much needed button for us to push when energy is coming back, however it hits like a wet noodle and the patch should extend behind your player model so you can stand in the buff safely on raid fights. Kyrian feels like the one with the most upside and most rewarding and if you line it up correctly. Right now our only real choice is Venthyr due to damage numbers, but I beg you dont nerf venthyr just get the Night Fae up to damage numbers and lower the cooldown on Kyrian to 1 minute and we have 3 really awesome choices. Necrolord is not really something I have tested.

Overall I am happy with the direction and pretty stoked to try and make this work after the up and down times of BFA. I do feel like the devs have a pulse on the spec with the leggo choices and hopefully a fun expansion to come!

3 Likes

But it costs a GCD, so it’s actually an HPS loss (before factoring in extra gust healing–but if you’re using it on mastery procs instead of EF you’re losing a different battle, oof) until you are in situations where you hit 0 mana. Granted this views healing per gcd simplistically, but I think you’re still looking at, at best, a wash in a lot of situations.

Overall the MW covenant skills just feel so dull compared to other healers. If some people like the MW stuff and the solution is for me to reroll that’s fair, but I thought the idea was to have different options for different cool tools. Right now MW feels like it has 26 perfectly good hammers but no wrenches, screwdrivers, pliers, tapemeasures, etc in the toolbox. Compare it to other healers that have genuine damage-flexable abilities. AoE vs single target healing, core rotation abilities or CDs, even some cool utilities in there. MW has mana efficient AoE heal or mana burn AoE heal.

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I mean the optimal play for bonedust brew would be to get essence font and rjw in it then use the rest of the gcds on rem and vivify but i don’t think it would be an hps lose sense we can easily cram a lot of healing into that 10 second window. I don’t think its great and its a rough one… very very rough… but still not an hps loss

Also this is completely separate from what I just said but where are all the wind and brew people? I feel like this is 90% mistweaver chat and even if you are happy with your changes that just means you should make a happy post to let the devs know they are on the right path.

I play all 3 specs (casually), and I already pretty much decided I want to be in Night Fae on this monk, so my general feedback would simply be “please make the two monk spells Night Fae grants something that a monk actually wants to press.”

I said this WRT Soulshape:

I noticed in the DK forums that some of them love this spell, I assume because they’re so starved for mobility that 30% feels like a lot. I made a video clip (that I don’t know how to share anonymously or I would here) showing my Beta monk running down a path (with 10% Windwalking on), engaging Soulshape, then letting it expire. It is very, very hard to tell if your speed changes at all.

It isn’t a Night Fae “dealbreaker” for me on my monk, but in its current state, instead of actually enjoying the actual sprint and blinks, it’ll be relegated to the form collection game and a macro named Shadowmeld.

As for Faeline Stomp, I haven’t given it extensive testing, but everything that has been repeatedly said about it is mostly cross-spec for me. When I cast it, I should already be standing in it, and I want to want to press this spell in all specs. I love procs-of-procs (I used to main Shaman), but they hinge on being excited when the proc happens. If casting Faeline Stomp is meaningless, it doesn’t matter how often I get to press it. I’ll eventually just take it off my bars.

Since tomorrow is likely another build, let’s make a reminder on a bunch of repeated feedback that still needs to be addressed

Mana Tea GCD. Equivalent spells have been given a compensation for the GCD, such as Avenging Wrath, while Mana Tea hasn’t. (And other similar spells for that matter, like Innervate)
Expel Harm being a joke. Self-explanatory, the numbers can’t hit live like this.
Mastery being awful. Affecting only 3 spells of our kit (okay let’s pretend we press soothing mist and make it 4) when all the other healers have their entire kit work and scale with their mastery is not acceptable. Growing in power should make all of a healer’s stats better, not worse.

There are more issues with MW, the biggest one being Essence Font taking too much space in Raids. Thankfully it is partially addressed because Extend Life exists which changes the priorities around a bit by making Rising Mist and Vivify much better. No clue if this is intended or not, but if not, please keep it as it is. We love it.

5 Likes

Good numbers can make you feel powerful, true, but what do you have to represent that visually? Health bars, floating combat text, and details.

I’m a monk. I specialize in Chi and hand to hand combat. If I wanted to feel power through floating combat text and sprinkling some leaves on you I would play the inferior leather class.

Our class is a lot cooler than that.

:thinking: What in the holy monk mantra

Prior to knowing it was weak - have you played with it yet anywhere? Odd question, but I just wanna pin point some spots where its falling through with what you would be expecting when you cast it. (Damage or healing)

It’s not working with FIstweaving yet though iirc. That description specifically seems kind of dull but probably correct for raw healing but I think there might be an opportunity to open up fistweaving a bit with it.

Well numbers are a crucial element for the feeling of fun because all fights all designed around them. No class nor spec can be designed solely around how cool it looks. It has to be balanced around the available content.

I first tried it in a couple of dungeons, mainly for damage purpose. I’d occasionally throw it on the melees (pretty much the tank and myself) for a boost of heal and didn’t pay attention to any numbers. I expected it would increase my throughput but couldn’t notice any change. Nothing struck me out about the ability, I just knew I had an extra button to push. The day after I installed Details and did some testing around dummies. Only then I realized how little it was increasing my damage and healing (cleave bug aside).
I don’t know if it answers your question, but I think it circles back to the duo flavor/numbers: both are needed, and at the moment the ability has some flavor but no numbers.

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You say this but little known fact, the damage part doesn’t work for mistweavers as of current which to me seems like a b-b-b-b-bug.

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Solid changes on the Mistweaver Legendaries.

However, the Soothing Focus legendary effect can never really be good as long as the buff expires as soon as Soothing Mist is cancelled, or even refreshed. This is really just because the optimal use cases of Soothing Mist are not compatible with this legendary at all. It is extremely rare to cast 3 spells back to back on a Soothing Mist target, let alone casting anything more than that to make use of the fully stacked effect.

A quick and easy QoL change to apply would be to at least make it so the buff is kept up when you refresh Soothing Mist on the same target. I don’t think it will make the legendary any better, but I think it makes more sense to at least have the option to keep up the buff so long as you stay on the one target.

A better change overall would just be to have the effect last around 10-15 seconds so we can make use of the buff on other targets. Without something like that it will never be a competitive option.

With this new build, we are still not seeing the changes needed for Mistweaver. Repeating it yet again:

Mana Tea GCD
Expel Harm is extremely undertuned
Mastery

I don’t think we need to repeat the reasons at this point. They’ve been repeated over and over and over. It’s time to act on this feedback!

6 Likes

Another thing important to highlight is the way healing is distributed by Atotm and Chi-Ji

At least one these things needs to be true smart healing, otherwise there is inevitably massive overhealing due to both abilities having a similar way to target players. Chi-ji on its own already has massive overhealing because of how dumb his healing is. This needs to be addressed.

2 Likes

Mistweaver Legendaries bugs as of the last build:

Ancient Teachings of the Monastery: Correctly heals for 120% of the damage with Tiger Palm and Blackout Kick. The healing still doesn’t happen for Rising Sun Kick and Blackout Kicks from Teachings of the Monastery stacks.

Soothing Focus: Works properly with one little bug left. Enveloping Mist correctly gets a mana cost reduction but the healing increase does not affect it.

Celestial Breath still doesn’t heal for the proper amount, doing around 60 to 70% of the tooltip’s value (Tooltip on my character has a 2970 heal over 2 seconds, the heals I get are 3 ticks of 656 healing, for a total of 1968)

Uplifting Mists still doesn’t buff the “Post-Warlords” spells. This includes Essence Font, Yu’lon and the covenant abilities.

1 Like

Just to drive the point home about bugs imma repost my bug list that is higher up in the thread, theses were all tested and confirmed today and will be updated on releases.
Mistweaver bugs and issues
Spell/Talent Bugs/Issues

  1. Chi-ji has a hidden mana cost that is 1/4 of your total mana
  2. Chi-ji’s healing to damage buff lasts only 60% of the duration it should
  3. Chi-ji’s damage isn’t converted to healing
  4. If you cast chi-ji when below 25% mana you will summon Chi-ji but not get a damage to healing buff
  5. Chi-ji won’t attack something unless you melee something.
  6. Spinning Crane Kick’s healing is reduced by 50%, this isn’t said on a tooltip anywhere and with sck target capped it makes this spell always the worse for hps
  7. Touch of Death requires you to melee something to be able to cast it meaning if you want to use Spinning crane kick you can’t touch of death (as its a “channel” ability meaning you can’t auto attack)
  8. Healing orbs are just not in the game… like at all
  9. Current there is never a valid time to cast expel harm (costs more than vivify, heals less than vivify even ignoring mastery)
  10. Expel Harm will not heal your Soothing Mist Target unless you’re also targeting them even though you can only cast Expel harm on yourself.
  11. Expel Harm isn’t boosted by env’s healing boost.

Covenants Bugs/Issues

  1. Fallen Order doesn’t cast anything besides soothing mist
  2. Fallen Order will only healing you
  3. Fallen Order’s Soothing Mist hits for 50% of your soothing mist
  4. Fallen order clones do more damage for mistweaver than they do for windwalker.
  5. Weapons of order tooltip reads increase mastery by 15% but it actually increases it by 45% which is expected as our mastery scaling is set to 3 but tooltip is bugged
  6. Anyone hit with Bonedust brew will be cleaved by vivify
  7. Bonedust brew’s 25% healing replication isn’t 25% but a flat value.
  8. Bonedust brew won’t do damage for us.
  9. Bonedust brew can heal people that don’t have the buff.
  10. Bonedust brew doesn’t increase gust healing.
  11. Faeline Stomp won’t heal yourself
  12. Faeline Stomp is buggy when you roll. It will fragment into two segments. (tested with chi torpedo)
  13. Faeline stomp is very buggy if it hits people or not. I have stood in front of someone and used it and it hit them but they didn’t get healed.

Conduit Bugs/Issues

  1. Rising Sun Revival does 10% of revival’s PRE-Mistweaver Aura healing per hot tick interval
  2. Rising Sun Revival doesn’t scale to crits
  3. Fortifying Ingredients isn’t 5% but appears to be 10% + mw aura (appears this could be wrong on my end but its not 5% of hp)
  4. Jade bond doesn’t work with chi-ji (jade bone reduces yu’lon cd by .5 second per gust proc, if you take chi-ji it replaces yu’long meaning you completely nullify a conduit by swapping talents)
  5. Dizzying Tumble dr starts on stun so if you’re first stun 60% of the dr is wasted
  6. Grounding breath increase ALL vivify healing on you not Vivifys you cast on yourself

Legendary Bugs/Issues

  1. Ancient Teachings of the Monastery is affected by vers. (shouldn’t be)
  2. Ancient Teachings of the Monastery doesn’t heal from Rising Sun Kick.
  3. Ancient Teachings of the Monastery doesn’t count Blackout Kicks from Teachings of the Monastery.
  4. Invoker’s Delight work for yu’lon but only lasts 15 seconds even though yu’lon lasts 25.
  5. Invoker’s Delight work for chi-ji but only lasts 15 seconds even though chi-ji lasts 25.
  6. Celestial Breath isn’t healing for the correct amount. The tooltip is higher than the actual value. (Current tooltip says 2583 but i only heal for 1611)
  7. Soothing Focus doesn’t increase healing but rather it DECREASES healing from vivify.
  8. Soothing Focus doesn’t effect Enveloping Mist in terms of healing.
  9. Roll out works but is a worse version of Celerity, a talent we already don’t take.
  10. Rushing Tiger Palm (ww lego) works for brewmaster but not us.
  11. Uplifting Mists isn’t increased by enveloping mists.
  12. Uplifting Mists doesn’t increase all spells healing even if they are apart of the core kit.
  13. Uplifting Mists tooltips reads heal for 50 but does about 5x that amount.
12 Likes

Brief mistweaver feedback, and a request:
Some of the posts are making me feel like I’m in the minority here, but I love the Essence Font -centric playstyle, so the Shadowlands changes (and the Kyrian class ability) feel fantastic, though I wish other options felt as compelling.

The request: I would love a glyph or even a talent that removed the dispel portion of Revival, just for those very rare situations (thinking of Mythic Il’gynoth) where we’re basically prohibited from using one of our strongest abilities because the way dispelling is intended for that fight is completely incompatible with the dispel-all. I know this is one of the things that makes us different, but I’m worried there will be more encounters in the future where Revival - by its nature of tying one of our biggest heals to a wide-range mass dispel - can wipe the group instantly, without a realistic avenue or even the smallest windows of opportunity (Mythic Il’gynoth is really the only extreme case I can think of at the moment, but I’m sure there have been other cases).

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Revival doesn’t dispel on mythic Il’gynoth you can use it freely. Blizzard is pretty good at adding spells the the I don't get dispelled by revival list if its going to make the button unpressable.

4 Likes

Adding more numbers to soothing focus does not fix the problem.

Why does the buff drop at all when soothing mist ends? The t17 2pc for monks was upwards of 40% extra multistrike and that tier set was often ignored because channeling soothing mist on 1 target is not good.

Weaving Soothing Mist is a good idea. Just make it so this legendary has a short duration so you can move your soothing mist around and cast other abilities.

3 Likes

I definitely agree with you, a lingering buff would enable more interaction with this legendary. At the moment it seems that you can’t get a good value out of it in all situations (both pve and pvp).

The healing bonus applies to the cleave portion of vivifies, so being able to maintain the buff between the channels or even on multiple targets would definitely be a positive change for this legendary in every type of content (as well as being a positive change for the mistweaving fantasy).
It is worth noting that the cleave vivifies also applies the buff on the target you’re channeling on. So with 2 ReM out we can apply the 3 stacks in one cast (though of course it won’t affect this first cast). While this looks like a bug, it’s not very impactful. I’d rather see it replaced by a lingering buff.

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Personal feedback on SL WW, from someone that really liked chi explosion hfcwalker, mostly liked antoruswalker, and can’t stand bfawalker.

  • The spec still feels bad without TEB. Capacitor historically does an okay job making chi spending feel like it contributes to a liquid resource, but it’s a poor substitute for tigereye brew. “Keep 3ish abilities on cd and avoid capping either resource” is boring single target that needs some kind of sprucing up-I think tigereye and the mastery we had from siege thru hfc was a great way to do that, but I think I’m in the minority, and I’d be happy to see any attention paid to this problem. BOK cooldown reduction is not enough.

  • Artifact strike is still a gaping hole in the windwalker damage kit. Having known what it’s like to have a full bar of chi’s worth of spenders that all did meaningful damage, it stings to go back. Fist of the white tiger still seems like a cruel joke, replacing a meaty spender with a wimpy builder on roughly similar cd. In a vacuum, my feelings on FOTWT are neutral; I just want something to do with chi besides press BOK for 2 damage twice after every jab for 1 damage.

  • The above point relates to my love for hfcwalker. Having more chi to spend has felt good on WW exactly once in the 6 years I’ve played the spec, and that’s with the combination of chiex, hfc tier and the class trinket making it feel punchy to have extra chi. Artifact was nice for at least feeling like having 5 chi for a burst window was meaningful, and I’d take that if it was offered, but there’s still a big hole in the damage model where the only buttons that matter are rsk fof and wdp, and they can be kept on CD with 0 haste.

  • I still feel like combo strikes is a really boring mastery as long as the two abilities that are capable of failing it on single target are so toothless that the hit combo talent is the only way to make us care about not double tapping tiger palm/blackout kick. It’s time for a new take on this mastery.

  • If we’re insistent on hit combo, maybe we could baseline the talent, reduce its duration, and increase its effect in some fashion, making it more like inner strength so that it feels rewarding to have up but it’s hard to maintain. WWs have been saying that hit combo feels like a restriction more than a bonus since its inception.

Couple of pvp notes.

  • As someone who hit glad once in wod, 5 times in legion and twice in bfa, the spec still feels awful without fist stun. You need to give it back. The current edition of the turbo fists talent is less fun to play against and play with, encouraging people sit on a short cooldown cc like dragon’s breath or storm bolt explicitly to disrupt the channel and encouraging WWs to only attempt to play the game proactively once every 45-60 seconds when we have some ccs. This state of affairs comes at the expense of WWs playing dynamically in a way that actually lets positioning be taken advantage of, and further forces the enemy to play around the damage of the channel reactively instead of doing anything fun with their own tools or letting us do anything fun with ours.

  • On that note, paralysis being such a long cd also feels horrible. Maybe 15 seconds was too frequent, maybe 4 seconds was too long, maybe a deliberate effort was made to keep outlaw out of the pvp meta so that gouge every 10 seconds wasn’t around to make paralysis every 45 seconds look as drippingly silly as it feels, but 45 feels like a wide miss. I’d like to see the duration and cooldown both cut as some kind of compromise to that end, or even shave down the range, something like a 15yd range incap that lasts for 2-3 seconds on a 30 second cd perhaps? Having 1 go every minute that contains a scant 2 short ccs feels more like wading through an irritating scenario than engaging in pvp on my WW.

  • In general, windwalker was at least fine pretty much regardless of tuning for the entirety of wod and legion. It was buffed to the level of absurdity several times, for sure; what I mean is that the spec was functionally immune to damage-related inviability. Doing the same dps as a healer, ww would still be viable if it could play henchman to meta classes with cc tools usable more often than once a minute. This is a niche critically missing from the meta: tons of specs with low armor and high mobility have run rampant for a LOT of bfa because in the absence of golden-age windwalker tools, any team without a rogue has to stand still and take whatever mages/other wws/rogues/dhs feel like doing for however many failed tries the squishy team gets before they run out of mana. The threat of counterplay has vanished, and the game is worse for it.

  • If nothing else, give back charging ox wave as a talent we can use to opt out of leg sweep. Axe tiger tail sweep as a talent nobody has ever taken except to specifically screw over other players using the adaptation trinket talent in 2s, and put the skillshot stun on a 30s cd in its place.

19 Likes

WW Covenant Feedback

  1. Night Fae: The ability is super cool, however I hate having to step up 3-4 yards to be in it.
  2. Venthyr: Its cool, it does absurd damage, however I feel like I’m summoning pets, which feels bad because I’m a monk.
  3. Kyrian: Its been said many times. It’s awkward. I just ignored mastery and it felt better since I hit two in a row, however that’s not the point of the ability then. Idk how to make it better other than it feels awkward to use.
  4. Necrolord: I can hit more SCK’s which i guess is good for AOE. Feels kind of awkward in ST. Not sure how I feel about this one.

Overall, each ability is somewhat awkward. The only one (currently) that is the least awkward for me is the night fae one. It’s stomp, move forward, maybe get a reset, stomp again, etc. The other’s I’m having trouble figuring out how they really interact. Necrolord feels the next best because it changes what I want to do. Venthyr is press and forget and kyrian is press and keep doing whatever you were doing but get some “benefit”.

8 Likes

I agree with all of this. I kinda prefer the Necrolord theme over the Night Fae theme and I’m somewhat split on the class abilities, but Soulshape’s features beat out the Necrolord shield, especially now that they adjusted it to feel faster and a useful blink. If they remove(d) the vanish from Soulshape (please DON’T, Blizzard), I’d probably go Necrolord, but that extra QoL and BG point protection fun is keeping me NF. (Oh yeah, and the Soulshape form collection!)

Blizzard, please make it so the Faeline Stomp caster is standing in it upon cast.

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