FEEDBACK: Monk Class Changes

Also reposting about Mistweaver Mastery. If Legendaries and covenants are going to be this strong and have zero mastery scaling, I think it is time to fix monk mastery.

the other healers do not have this problem where gaining power causes their mastery to become weaker

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Mistweaver Covenant Abilities Feedback

Disclaimer
Since not much is going on atm on the EU forums, I took the liberty of posting my feedback here for the sake of visibility and sharing it with more people. I’ll probably post a copy in the EU to see if it sparks things a little bit back there.
My take on these covenant abilities is strictly from a PvE healer point of view.

Fallen Order - Venthyr
I’ve not given this ability a good try since it just doesn’t feel interesting at all. I really dislike the lack of control and interaction. Pressing it won’t affect directly our healing, survivability or damage output, instead making us rely on those images to do something for us. Perhaps if they would focus or heal our current target, or leave a buff that we could interact with, this ability would become more interesting. But its current design makes this ability too inconsistent to consider using it in a dire situation, or even any situation.

Bonedust Brew - Necrolords
The current design of this ability is plainly awful. If the ability was a passive, it could be somewhat ok. But from a healer (or any) perspective, casting a spell thinking “it might do something, or it might do absolutely nothing” is extremely bad. You do not want to waste a GDC for such a spell, not even a slot on your action bars. The damage increase and the additional Gust of Mists heal increase are insignificant at the moment. Hopefully those are tuning issues and will be addressed later during the beta.
While I’ve been testing this ability the cleave bug was active, allowing vivify to cleave on all targets affected by the brew. And it felt good.
It felt good to aim the cask to hit as many targets as possible and cleave the vivify out of them. It felt good to have a ability that directly increase my healing output instead of random procs within a short window. Finally it felt good because this bug actually make some sense with the theme on the ability. Coating all targets with a misty dust made with bones of fallen warriors, somehow linking them together and empowering this dust to heal them with the monk’s casts.
This bug will probably not remain, but nor can the base design of this spell. I really do hope that this event of serendipity can change Bonedust Brew into a more impactful ability. Removing the RNG factor and adding flat increase in healing or damage would be a start. Damage-wise it could work like the Sunrise Technique azerite trait, making it a relevant ability in M+. With its 1m CD AND with decent tuning of the bugged version, this ability can be really useful and fun to use in both raid and M+. But again, with its current design, it is absolutely useless.

Faeline Stomp - Nightfae
An interesting ability, though the reset chance is not very appealing. Being able to spam it with some luck shouldn’t be what makes it valuable. In my opinion a reduction of its CD whenever you use an ability while standing on it would feel more consistent in the course of a fight or of a whole dungeon. At this stage of the beta, the healing part of this spell is not working properly. Even when you are surrounded by friendly players it can throw no orb at all, and at best it launched 4 orbs at completely random targets. This is probably a bug of early beta, but we need to have a better idea of how it works in order to evaluate it. More precisely we need knowledge of the real range of the spell, because its strength will depend on it. Another issue is the fact that when you stomp, the faeline doesn’t start under the monk’s feet, forcing him to run towards it to make use of it.
For M+ I’m sure it can bring some extra aoe damage with proper tuning, and might allow us to apply the EF buff without the need of casting EF (which can be nice in M+). In a raiding environment, if it can launch orbs with the same range of the EF cast, then it might be quite decent.
Time Range will tell.

Weapons of Order - Kyrians
At the current state of beta, this will be our only raiding covenant option, and by far the strongest one. For a 2min CD (and a whole lot of mana), you get roughly the amount of 6 revivals as a pulse around you. I tried it out last Friday, and it was quite fun to use. On the downside, the spell did an average of 25% of my HPS with 75% overheal. Yes, it might need some tuning. But I do fear that without something of this caliber, mistweavers will again fall far far behind the other healers in raids.
Allowing MW to have a healing cooldown that has an effect during 30s is in my opinion really cool. They desperately need one to match the strength of other classes’ healing CDs. I enjoyed canceling the EF channel to proc the pulse prematurely and thus choosing when it healed the raid. The mastery bonus is quite irrelevant because this stat is just bad for raids. Boosting another stat or giving another spell synergy would be nicer. For example I was thinking it could make your next 3 EF casts pulse while giving the monk some CD reduction for 30s, thus giving an interesting choice for the rising mist playstyle. The only real downside of this ability is that it doesn’t do any damage, but as it is designed for raiding I guess it would be ok.

Conclusion
When I first read the monk covenant abilities, they didn’t bolster my hopes for the state of mistweavers, especially for raids. After testing them at this stage of the beta, I am still a bit disappointed, but I really do think there’s potential for turning them into powerful and fun abilities that can have a good impact for the spec. They need many changes, refining and polishing, but there’s potential. The weird/fake synergies with mastery are concerning for it is not an appealing stat in the current state of the game (again especially for raids). I might get back to this subject in another post.

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Overall I agree with you on the major ideas but there are some things that really strike me as strange and maybe its just how I read it.

It’s suppose to cast enveloping mists if the tooltip is to be believed meaning it should leave a hot that increase our healing.

If you had a button that was on average 3.75% hps increase would you press it or no? Even without the bug you’d still 100% hit it, would it feel good? No. But you’d still hit it.

I agree with this a lot but personally I believe it would have to be some flavor of reduced vivify cleave or that could get out of hand WAY too quickly and could easily be used as an aoe cooldown or with Uplifting Mists (formerly known as Extended life) you could use it as a tank cooldown since the hits are just vivify. Just cast rem on tank, throw Bonedust brew on group now tank is getting more St healing than you could ever do.

I don’t think it needs to be constant in terms of damage as that isn’t like healing where its you either person dies or lives. I’d rather see the numbers go up a bit maybe 40% chance and 50% of source making it a 20% damage increase.

I think you’re under estimating the power of faeline stomp when they fix the who gets healed bug. As long as you hit at least 9 total people you are doing the same healing as Essence Font for 0 mana. (since you get 9 bolts a gcd for essence font until >100% haste)

I don’t think canceling your Essence Font channel is the play unless

  1. It allows you to hit more people
  2. You have to cast something else to save a person’s life directly

As Essence Font’s cooldown starts on start of channel, you just spent 7200 mana, and the hps/hpm/hpct from essence font is pretty good.

The amount it boosts mastery is actually very impactful right now as its a 45% boost to your mastery (as mw as a mastery scaling of 3 so 15 * 3 = 45) which is right now is doubling our mastery and allowing us to get good single target heals out on those tanks who never stacks. Another stat would be nice but in this instance mastery isn’t the end of the world… You just did a billion and a half raid healing you need to st those guys who were missed… cough tanks cough

At first I was in the same boat but the more and more they showed its really hard to just say a covenant has killed your hope in my opinion since there are many more systems at play. While yes Kyrian just does so much those other systems don’t matter when comparing Bonedust Brew, Fallen Order, and Faeline stomp you do need to factor in soulbinds and secondary abilities (which oddly enough all stink for mw).

Rework Mastery I don’t know another healer or spec for that matter where all your talents make mastery worse.

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The saddest disclaimer ever. I’d fight to unite monks worldwide if I had posting power. :disappointed:

How it feels plays a lot into the perception of power though.

If your first impression is “why is this even on my bars” then the only thing keeping you on that covenant is the asthetics. Unless you don’t care about the gameplay it doesn’t do much in helping you feel like you haven’t made the wrong choice in a covenant.

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My perception of power is numbers and maths >:(
Its like eating only one vitamin gummy a day because packaging told you so

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Maybe I’m asking too much of the covenant abilities and that makes me overreact on some of their aspects. Or maybe my english is a bit too rusty x)

If the 3.75% hps increase is only for the 10s, honestly I’m not even sure I will press it. Eventually yes I will use it during downtimes or when I know nothing else is going on, and it would be at the bottom of my priorities. But I agree with you, maybe increasing the chance % is enough to make the ability more consistent and might solve this issue.

I do know the stomp can be very powerful when the healing part will get fixed, given that the EF bolt range is good. I guess I’m just not a big fan of resets and low % chances and tend to prefer more consistent mechanics.

I completely agree, but the end pulse could have required you to fully channel the EF, so it’s nice to have the option =)

I didn’t say it killed my hopes, far from that. My hopes are still there and actually quite high, just not thanks to covenant abilities… yet ! I still think there’s potential for strong, fun and versatile abilities and can’t wait to see more of it.

WW Feedback:

So far this is the best WW has felt since legion, I am a big fan of getting out of BFAs touch window, and has lots of choices with legendarys. Choices with covenants feel good (balancing pending, a few could be the right answer) and I am pretty stoked with how the class feels to play.

First thing however, tiger palm at 50 energy feels awful and slows the spec down way to much, its just not needed we cant smash buttons like other specs but we should never feel resource starved since we have 2.

Right now however its talents are pretty cookie cutter and the only real variable is dance of chi-ji and hit combo on 45 talent row even on Single Target with ChiEX leggo. What I would love to see is Strike of the Windlord and Whirling Dragon Punch get moved to baseline, you can use the ChiEx leggo as a talent (it really is spec enhancing right now and a great playstyle) and do something to lower the energy cost of tiger palm by 5 or 10 for 30 level row. Serenity needs some love, but unsure what the answer is for that, perhaps making it the old Touch of Death window (in a nerfed degree) interaction.

WW conduits feel good, I like the interaction with lowering the cooldown on xuen and big fat fist of fury damage. I think the vers to party node (Call of action venthyr) needs some love for DPS (way shorter cooldown) to give vers dps classes a bit of a carrot to drop the 3 potency tree.

For overall Covenants Nightfae is by far the most fun to play and faeline stomp feels like a much needed button for us to push when energy is coming back, however it hits like a wet noodle and the patch should extend behind your player model so you can stand in the buff safely on raid fights. Kyrian feels like the one with the most upside and most rewarding and if you line it up correctly. Right now our only real choice is Venthyr due to damage numbers, but I beg you dont nerf venthyr just get the Night Fae up to damage numbers and lower the cooldown on Kyrian to 1 minute and we have 3 really awesome choices. Necrolord is not really something I have tested.

Overall I am happy with the direction and pretty stoked to try and make this work after the up and down times of BFA. I do feel like the devs have a pulse on the spec with the leggo choices and hopefully a fun expansion to come!

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But it costs a GCD, so it’s actually an HPS loss (before factoring in extra gust healing–but if you’re using it on mastery procs instead of EF you’re losing a different battle, oof) until you are in situations where you hit 0 mana. Granted this views healing per gcd simplistically, but I think you’re still looking at, at best, a wash in a lot of situations.

Overall the MW covenant skills just feel so dull compared to other healers. If some people like the MW stuff and the solution is for me to reroll that’s fair, but I thought the idea was to have different options for different cool tools. Right now MW feels like it has 26 perfectly good hammers but no wrenches, screwdrivers, pliers, tapemeasures, etc in the toolbox. Compare it to other healers that have genuine damage-flexable abilities. AoE vs single target healing, core rotation abilities or CDs, even some cool utilities in there. MW has mana efficient AoE heal or mana burn AoE heal.

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I mean the optimal play for bonedust brew would be to get essence font and rjw in it then use the rest of the gcds on rem and vivify but i don’t think it would be an hps lose sense we can easily cram a lot of healing into that 10 second window. I don’t think its great and its a rough one… very very rough… but still not an hps loss

Also this is completely separate from what I just said but where are all the wind and brew people? I feel like this is 90% mistweaver chat and even if you are happy with your changes that just means you should make a happy post to let the devs know they are on the right path.

I play all 3 specs (casually), and I already pretty much decided I want to be in Night Fae on this monk, so my general feedback would simply be “please make the two monk spells Night Fae grants something that a monk actually wants to press.”

I said this WRT Soulshape:

I noticed in the DK forums that some of them love this spell, I assume because they’re so starved for mobility that 30% feels like a lot. I made a video clip (that I don’t know how to share anonymously or I would here) showing my Beta monk running down a path (with 10% Windwalking on), engaging Soulshape, then letting it expire. It is very, very hard to tell if your speed changes at all.

It isn’t a Night Fae “dealbreaker” for me on my monk, but in its current state, instead of actually enjoying the actual sprint and blinks, it’ll be relegated to the form collection game and a macro named Shadowmeld.

As for Faeline Stomp, I haven’t given it extensive testing, but everything that has been repeatedly said about it is mostly cross-spec for me. When I cast it, I should already be standing in it, and I want to want to press this spell in all specs. I love procs-of-procs (I used to main Shaman), but they hinge on being excited when the proc happens. If casting Faeline Stomp is meaningless, it doesn’t matter how often I get to press it. I’ll eventually just take it off my bars.

Since tomorrow is likely another build, let’s make a reminder on a bunch of repeated feedback that still needs to be addressed

Mana Tea GCD. Equivalent spells have been given a compensation for the GCD, such as Avenging Wrath, while Mana Tea hasn’t. (And other similar spells for that matter, like Innervate)
Expel Harm being a joke. Self-explanatory, the numbers can’t hit live like this.
Mastery being awful. Affecting only 3 spells of our kit (okay let’s pretend we press soothing mist and make it 4) when all the other healers have their entire kit work and scale with their mastery is not acceptable. Growing in power should make all of a healer’s stats better, not worse.

There are more issues with MW, the biggest one being Essence Font taking too much space in Raids. Thankfully it is partially addressed because Extend Life exists which changes the priorities around a bit by making Rising Mist and Vivify much better. No clue if this is intended or not, but if not, please keep it as it is. We love it.

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Good numbers can make you feel powerful, true, but what do you have to represent that visually? Health bars, floating combat text, and details.

I’m a monk. I specialize in Chi and hand to hand combat. If I wanted to feel power through floating combat text and sprinkling some leaves on you I would play the inferior leather class.

Our class is a lot cooler than that.

:thinking: What in the holy monk mantra

Prior to knowing it was weak - have you played with it yet anywhere? Odd question, but I just wanna pin point some spots where its falling through with what you would be expecting when you cast it. (Damage or healing)

It’s not working with FIstweaving yet though iirc. That description specifically seems kind of dull but probably correct for raw healing but I think there might be an opportunity to open up fistweaving a bit with it.

Well numbers are a crucial element for the feeling of fun because all fights all designed around them. No class nor spec can be designed solely around how cool it looks. It has to be balanced around the available content.

I first tried it in a couple of dungeons, mainly for damage purpose. I’d occasionally throw it on the melees (pretty much the tank and myself) for a boost of heal and didn’t pay attention to any numbers. I expected it would increase my throughput but couldn’t notice any change. Nothing struck me out about the ability, I just knew I had an extra button to push. The day after I installed Details and did some testing around dummies. Only then I realized how little it was increasing my damage and healing (cleave bug aside).
I don’t know if it answers your question, but I think it circles back to the duo flavor/numbers: both are needed, and at the moment the ability has some flavor but no numbers.

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You say this but little known fact, the damage part doesn’t work for mistweavers as of current which to me seems like a b-b-b-b-bug.

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Solid changes on the Mistweaver Legendaries.

However, the Soothing Focus legendary effect can never really be good as long as the buff expires as soon as Soothing Mist is cancelled, or even refreshed. This is really just because the optimal use cases of Soothing Mist are not compatible with this legendary at all. It is extremely rare to cast 3 spells back to back on a Soothing Mist target, let alone casting anything more than that to make use of the fully stacked effect.

A quick and easy QoL change to apply would be to at least make it so the buff is kept up when you refresh Soothing Mist on the same target. I don’t think it will make the legendary any better, but I think it makes more sense to at least have the option to keep up the buff so long as you stay on the one target.

A better change overall would just be to have the effect last around 10-15 seconds so we can make use of the buff on other targets. Without something like that it will never be a competitive option.

With this new build, we are still not seeing the changes needed for Mistweaver. Repeating it yet again:

Mana Tea GCD
Expel Harm is extremely undertuned
Mastery

I don’t think we need to repeat the reasons at this point. They’ve been repeated over and over and over. It’s time to act on this feedback!

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Another thing important to highlight is the way healing is distributed by Atotm and Chi-Ji

At least one these things needs to be true smart healing, otherwise there is inevitably massive overhealing due to both abilities having a similar way to target players. Chi-ji on its own already has massive overhealing because of how dumb his healing is. This needs to be addressed.

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Mistweaver Legendaries bugs as of the last build:

Ancient Teachings of the Monastery: Correctly heals for 120% of the damage with Tiger Palm and Blackout Kick. The healing still doesn’t happen for Rising Sun Kick and Blackout Kicks from Teachings of the Monastery stacks.

Soothing Focus: Works properly with one little bug left. Enveloping Mist correctly gets a mana cost reduction but the healing increase does not affect it.

Celestial Breath still doesn’t heal for the proper amount, doing around 60 to 70% of the tooltip’s value (Tooltip on my character has a 2970 heal over 2 seconds, the heals I get are 3 ticks of 656 healing, for a total of 1968)

Uplifting Mists still doesn’t buff the “Post-Warlords” spells. This includes Essence Font, Yu’lon and the covenant abilities.

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Just to drive the point home about bugs imma repost my bug list that is higher up in the thread, theses were all tested and confirmed today and will be updated on releases.
Mistweaver bugs and issues
Spell/Talent Bugs/Issues

  1. Chi-ji has a hidden mana cost that is 1/4 of your total mana
  2. Chi-ji’s healing to damage buff lasts only 60% of the duration it should
  3. Chi-ji’s damage isn’t converted to healing
  4. If you cast chi-ji when below 25% mana you will summon Chi-ji but not get a damage to healing buff
  5. Chi-ji won’t attack something unless you melee something.
  6. Spinning Crane Kick’s healing is reduced by 50%, this isn’t said on a tooltip anywhere and with sck target capped it makes this spell always the worse for hps
  7. Touch of Death requires you to melee something to be able to cast it meaning if you want to use Spinning crane kick you can’t touch of death (as its a “channel” ability meaning you can’t auto attack)
  8. Healing orbs are just not in the game… like at all
  9. Current there is never a valid time to cast expel harm (costs more than vivify, heals less than vivify even ignoring mastery)
  10. Expel Harm will not heal your Soothing Mist Target unless you’re also targeting them even though you can only cast Expel harm on yourself.
  11. Expel Harm isn’t boosted by env’s healing boost.

Covenants Bugs/Issues

  1. Fallen Order doesn’t cast anything besides soothing mist
  2. Fallen Order will only healing you
  3. Fallen Order’s Soothing Mist hits for 50% of your soothing mist
  4. Fallen order clones do more damage for mistweaver than they do for windwalker.
  5. Weapons of order tooltip reads increase mastery by 15% but it actually increases it by 45% which is expected as our mastery scaling is set to 3 but tooltip is bugged
  6. Anyone hit with Bonedust brew will be cleaved by vivify
  7. Bonedust brew’s 25% healing replication isn’t 25% but a flat value.
  8. Bonedust brew won’t do damage for us.
  9. Bonedust brew can heal people that don’t have the buff.
  10. Bonedust brew doesn’t increase gust healing.
  11. Faeline Stomp won’t heal yourself
  12. Faeline Stomp is buggy when you roll. It will fragment into two segments. (tested with chi torpedo)
  13. Faeline stomp is very buggy if it hits people or not. I have stood in front of someone and used it and it hit them but they didn’t get healed.

Conduit Bugs/Issues

  1. Rising Sun Revival does 10% of revival’s PRE-Mistweaver Aura healing per hot tick interval
  2. Rising Sun Revival doesn’t scale to crits
  3. Fortifying Ingredients isn’t 5% but appears to be 10% + mw aura (appears this could be wrong on my end but its not 5% of hp)
  4. Jade bond doesn’t work with chi-ji (jade bone reduces yu’lon cd by .5 second per gust proc, if you take chi-ji it replaces yu’long meaning you completely nullify a conduit by swapping talents)
  5. Dizzying Tumble dr starts on stun so if you’re first stun 60% of the dr is wasted
  6. Grounding breath increase ALL vivify healing on you not Vivifys you cast on yourself

Legendary Bugs/Issues

  1. Ancient Teachings of the Monastery is affected by vers. (shouldn’t be)
  2. Ancient Teachings of the Monastery doesn’t heal from Rising Sun Kick.
  3. Ancient Teachings of the Monastery doesn’t count Blackout Kicks from Teachings of the Monastery.
  4. Invoker’s Delight work for yu’lon but only lasts 15 seconds even though yu’lon lasts 25.
  5. Invoker’s Delight work for chi-ji but only lasts 15 seconds even though chi-ji lasts 25.
  6. Celestial Breath isn’t healing for the correct amount. The tooltip is higher than the actual value. (Current tooltip says 2583 but i only heal for 1611)
  7. Soothing Focus doesn’t increase healing but rather it DECREASES healing from vivify.
  8. Soothing Focus doesn’t effect Enveloping Mist in terms of healing.
  9. Roll out works but is a worse version of Celerity, a talent we already don’t take.
  10. Rushing Tiger Palm (ww lego) works for brewmaster but not us.
  11. Uplifting Mists isn’t increased by enveloping mists.
  12. Uplifting Mists doesn’t increase all spells healing even if they are apart of the core kit.
  13. Uplifting Mists tooltips reads heal for 50 but does about 5x that amount.
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Brief mistweaver feedback, and a request:
Some of the posts are making me feel like I’m in the minority here, but I love the Essence Font -centric playstyle, so the Shadowlands changes (and the Kyrian class ability) feel fantastic, though I wish other options felt as compelling.

The request: I would love a glyph or even a talent that removed the dispel portion of Revival, just for those very rare situations (thinking of Mythic Il’gynoth) where we’re basically prohibited from using one of our strongest abilities because the way dispelling is intended for that fight is completely incompatible with the dispel-all. I know this is one of the things that makes us different, but I’m worried there will be more encounters in the future where Revival - by its nature of tying one of our biggest heals to a wide-range mass dispel - can wipe the group instantly, without a realistic avenue or even the smallest windows of opportunity (Mythic Il’gynoth is really the only extreme case I can think of at the moment, but I’m sure there have been other cases).

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