FEEDBACK: Monk Class Changes

UPDATED April 9

In this thread, we’re discussing Monk class changes coming in World of Warcraft: Shadowlands.

Read more about initial class changes in the World of Warcraft blog.

This initial post will be updated periodically throughout the Shadowlands test. Please check back here for information about further updates to this class as they are made.

Thank you for your testing and feedback!

15 Likes

Windwalker Monk Feedback

----(EDITS at the Bottom for TONS of other Builds)----

First Thing First: Alpha Bugs (All of which I’ve reported in-game)

  • Touch of Death - The spell currently does not work in any capacity. You cannot use it on any target regardless of your health, the target’s health or the target’s health percentage.
  • Expel Harm - This ability seems to have a 0.1sec GCD, so low that it’s practically non-existent. While this is nice, this may or may not be intended.
  • Weapons of Order (Kyrian Ability) - The ability itself appears to have two issues. The GCD is 1.5sec, if this isn’t intended it’s a bug. If it is intended I’d like to state it feels bad to use when other WW damage abilities are 1sec GCD, it’s almost jarring to the flow of combat. The second issue with the ability is the Rising Sun Kick chi cost reduction portion does not seem to function at this time.
  • Fists of Fury - Still requires 1Hand weapons. 2hand implementation likely not in yet, but possible bug nonetheless.

Personal Opinion of Windwalker

I’d like to start off by saying I am by no means a hardcore M+ or Heroic/Mythic Raider, with that in mind the following is my own personal impressions thus far (At Lvl 53, which is the current max). I feel if you were to take away the BFA Essences and Azerite Traits, Windwalker feels exactly the same in Shadowlands as it does in BFA today. Other than not casting Touch of Death at the start of fights it seems very little has changed with the spec, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. The rotation still flows well, with Xuen use here and there, and I never really had any Chi/Energy issues.

  • Touch of Death - Having played Monk since day 1 of Mists of Pandaria I personally don’t have any issues with how the spell is being changed. Tuning/Numbers aside, if the spell worked, it’d be enough to instantly kill any non-elite mob I’ve encountered while leveling. I believe this spell is going to be a hot topic among monks, some advocating for the original style of the spell and others loathing the loss of the Gale Burst mechanic.
  • Expel Harm - It’s nice to have the ability back but as it stands it barely seems to do anything by Lvl 53 and is a shadow of its former self (Used to generate 2 Chi, 50% of the heal as damage by patch 5.4). I currently have 11,520 health with Expel Harm healing for 529. That’s about a 4.59% health on a 15 second cooldown. 10% damage out of a 529 health is worth… 52 damage. My Main hand auto-attack hits for an average of 170-180, so the Expel Harm damage component isn’t even worth 1/3 of an auto-attack damage wise.
  • Invoke Xuen, the White Tiger - I don’t really know what to suggest here and others will have far better ideas but the ability feels bland and lacks impact. I’m also personally not thrilled about having a pet bar back, even if it’s only for 25 seconds. I’d like to see this ability buff the player character in some way because as it stands for Xuen it doesn’t matter if the player is AFK or not, he’s going to do the same damage regardless.
  • Whirling Dragon Punch and the Lvl 50 Talent Row - At this point, once again my own personal opinion, I feel WDP should be baked into the core of the Windwalker rotation. As it is today the Lvl 50 talent row has no real choice. My suggestion would be to remove/buff Spiritual Focus, bake WDP into the core spec, replace WDP with a new ability and buff Serenity in some way or form to be relevant.
  • Storm, Earth and Fire - I like the ability and I like the theme of it. That being said, while I don’t have a list, SEF has its fair share of bugs which can be frustrating. I’d like to see continued bug improvement here and if progress can’t be made than an outright full replacement with something better. We haven’t seen Soul bind/Conduit stuff yet and I’m already worried about SEF working with all the various buffs and components.
  • Fortifying Brew - Always nice to have a defensive cooldown back, I have no complaints here. Although with the % health damage component of Touch of Karma and Touch of Death I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s used offensively more than defensively. This may or may not be intended.

Overall I enjoy the class and I enjoy the spec. I do worry that Windwalker monks will bring nothing worth having to the table for higher level M+/Raids however, there really isn’t anything unique about us in the current state.

—Build 34098 Updates (Edit time 4/18/20)—

  • Touch of Death - ToD works now as of build 34098. It does however still have a couple bugs. Even if a target is lower hp than you, you cannot use ToD until you hit them with at least 1 auto-attack first. This feels odd and I don’t remember it working this way in MoP. In addition i’ve had non-elite mobs start with more HP than me, I get them lower than my own HP, ToD proc’s, I use it and they still don’t die instantly (They’re also above 15% hp)
  • Touch of Death - 3 Chi Sphere Feedback - This is a nice to have but the 3 Chi Orbs spawn JUST far enough away from you to be annoying. Good luck finding the orbs in hectic fights. I’d much rather you just gain 3 Chi instead of it being Orbs.

—Build 34137 Updates (Edit time 4/23/20)—

Fallen Order (Venthyr Ability) - The Revendreth ability is out and I cannot say that I am a fan. It feels like another SEF with all the bugs of SEF and more. Here’s my personal feedback on this ability:

  1. You can’t control the Fallen Monks, what they do, which monks you get or the order they come out of the mirror. This is a little too much RNG for me.
  2. Many times while using this ability the summoned Monks have stood around doing nothing for their entire 6-8 second duration.
  3. The Tiger/Ox Monks use abilities to get to their targets but in many cases they seemingly don’t use them and just run towards the target. This is a loss of almost 1-2 seconds, out of the 6-8 second duration, that they’re not doing anything at all.
  4. Visual and Audio feedback - Currently the spell looks very bland. The summoned mirror is very basic (Hopefully subject to change) and the Fallen Monks are all female Pandaren (Little variety would be nice). In addition they’re a -VERY- translucent red color which makes them difficult to see at all. Lastly, the ability seemingly has no sound effects to it.

With the assistance of smarter monks than myself from the Monk discord, and many wowlogs, we also confirmed some concerning issues with the spell.

  1. If you use Storm, Earth and Fire alongside Fallen Order, the Fallen Monks have their damage reduced due to SEF. In all cases it’s better NOT to use SEF at all while Fallen Order is up if you want to utilize Fallen Order to it’s fullest.
  2. If you use Serenity the Fallen Monks do 20% more damage while the Serenity buff is up. While nice, I can’t imagine this is intended either.

—Build 34490 Updates (Edit time 5/22/20)—

Posted general Windwalker feedback and Covenant ability feedback further down the thread. Located here: Windwalker/Covenant Feedback

— Build 34821 Bug List (Edit time 6/19/20)—

Posted a list of bugs as of 6/19/20. Located here: Monk Bugs

— Build 35522 Feedback (Edit time 8/13/20) —

Target cap and Fists of Fury feedback.

—Build 35679 Bug List (Edit time 8/26/20) —

Posted a list of bugs, some new and some old. Located here: Monk Bugs

—Build 35755 Bug List (Edit time 9/2/20) —

Latest list of bugs, fixes, etc. Located here: Monk Bugs

—Build 35854 Bug List (Edit time 9/9/20)—

Latest list of bugs, fixes, etc. Located here: Monk Bugs

—Build 35938 Bug List (Edit time 9/17/20)—

Latest list of bugs, fixes, hardcore legendary nerfing, etc. Located here: Monk Bugs

—Build 35978 Bug List (Edit Time 9/24/20)—

Latest list of bugs, fixes, etc. Located here: Monk Bugs

—Build 36086 Bug List (Edit Time 9/30/20)—

Latest list of bugs, fixes, etc. Located here: Monk Bugs

83 Likes

Talent row (Hit Combo, Rushing Jade Wind, Dance of Chi’ji)

With no distinct option for single target in the row is their any chance we’ll see a talent shuffle (swapping spiritual focus with RJW DoC, moving hit combo off that row entirely) or some kind of secondary effect added to RJW?

Each of the three abilities is a direct increase to AoE in some way. We’ve seen how Hit Combo can scale to the point of surpassing Xuen with and without set bonuses and with the cap on AoE being 6 targets I’m not hopeful that RJW is going to be able to remain competitive on a row that now has DoC, another scaling AoE ability, outside of some significant tuning.

Some ideas after talking to a few co players about it;

Hit Combo I like the buff management but I think the talent is pointless to have. It doesn’t add anything to gameplay outside of that buff management and it only hurts the other talents on the row being both a passive option and incredibly versatile. I’d like to see it baked into mastery as an additional stacking effect either with a scaling value or just a flat 1%.

“Your abilities do 15% more damage when they’re not repeated. Each time you successfuly combo your damage is increased by 0.5% stacking up to 6 times” and with mastery rating you’ll go to 16% increase to non repeats and 0.55% increase to all damage for example.

A surge of power route would also be pretty cool where Hit Combo rewards your last combo of abilities but through deliberately breaking mastery for an ability in order to gain an extra effect and the normal mastery damage bonus, like a finisher, but in a way that allows us to retain the passive aspect and secondary stat value without promoting a rotation where your buffing every single rising sun kick.

Hit Combo: *After casting Blackout Kick twice in succession the next ability gains a special effect. This can only happen once every 30 seconds. *

RSK: hits an additional target or maybe an additional time
SCK: hitting an isolated target does something cool
FoF: Haste buff for the next 20 seconds.

Rushing Jade Wind: With the entire row being tied to SCK, at RJW current cost of 1, it might be possible to link RJW and SCK together through a buff that would bring back an AoE playstyle closer to when SCK was 3 cost.

“Each target hit increases the damage of your next SCK by 10%”.

At the target cap of 6, and with the duration, the heavier cost and the slower frequency of SCKs would allow for a cleaner rotation of TP/RJW/SCK but also allow for RJW to fill a more premeditated burst AoE role where your not relying on # of SCKs or RJW uptime but the effectiveness of your casts.

This would leave the current Hit Combo and DoC to do what they do through procs and overall damage to remain the same without forcing RJW out due to low ability damage, uptime, resources, etc.

Just some ideas. I don’t want to see a dead RJW.

Edit: I’d like to add that AoE cap is 6 but MoTC cap is 5.

I’m wondering if uncapped WDP is an oversight and it’ll be fixed later on or if this will be a way to sneak RSK in for AoE when talented into WDP.

55 Likes

Brewmaster.
I’ve been testing out some of the changes on the Talent tree, and looking at the skills (and future skill)

  • Exploding Keg - seems to be a decent choice so far.

  • Celestial Flames - Feels like some good viability, although I probably need to put more usage into using spinning crane kick or noticing when it is applied and throwing a spin kick would be appropriate. Also, does rushing jade wind apply breath of fire as well, the text of this talent doesn’t change when rushing jade wind is chosen.

  • Clash - Obviously haven’t been able to test this yet as it’s a 58 unlock, but this feels like a take on a Warrior ability than a Monk (Intercept?). Ultimately a BM Monk already has a means to get close to an enemy fast (Roll/Chi Torpedo) and I would really like to see some other ability here. Maybe a better, more Monk style ability would be something that sidesteps and blocks the next attack?

  • Calming Fist (or something) - Instead of Clash, an ability that redirects some percentage (like 1% or 2%, etc), that is capped, of our staggered damage into an attack? I personally think this would be a very fitting choice for a Monk Brewmaster, redirecting the energy from an attacker back to the attacker.

As a note, the new Brewmaster tab in the spell book doesn’t highlight skills not on your action bars like the other tabs.

5 Likes

Brewmaster monk Feedback.

Celestial brew is a great ability, and it gives me hope for the future of the spec. But It isn’t without problems.

1st. Celestial Brew currently doesn’t benefit from abilities that reduce the cooldown of “Brews” This feels like an oversight. It is also unaffected by Haste, again. Feels like an oversight.

2nd. Celestial Brew currently doesn’t share a Charge with the Other brews, I believe this was done to make it similar to Guard. It may, or may not be an Oversight, but should be brought up regardless.

Overall, Celestial Brew is a wonderful addition to the specialization

On to the bad:

Ironskin Brew is gone, and it’s functionality is replaced with Shuffle.
Shuffle is almost completely passive due to being applied on every ability.

While this isn’t inherently bad. It feels worse in game play. Because your primary defensive tool is essentially a passive on your class that you get just by hitting your rotational buttons.

Ironskin Brew shouldn’t be gone. It is detrimental to the Brewmaster fantasy to lose a brew, and without actively hitting a Mitigation ability, the class feels almost entirely passive between uses of Celestial Brew.

I Propose a solution. Ironskin Brew should grant armor on activation, and grant significantly increased stagger. But only for a few seconds, 3 or 4; It should also have shared charges with Purifying Brew; and multiple casts of Ironskin should not give addition time on the Buff.
This retains the Brewmaster fantasy, But Also makes Ironskin Brew a button that requires thought and prediction to use.

A Brewmaster could drink Celestial Brew and Ironskin Brew at the same time in order to prepare for a large burst of damage, at the cost of getting a large amount of stagger

Or use Ironskin and Purify to cleanse a large amount of stagger before drinking celestial brew, In order to benefit from a larger shield, and allow the Healer more time to react.

Thank you for any consideration on my post. I feel brewmaster is supposed to be about choice, The right brew for the right job.

I Love this class and would be more than happy to discuss this further.

19 Likes

Another Suggestion. I’d love to hear you opinion Mikuro.

What If Invoke Xuen was replaced with Tigereye Brew.
Assuming they make Tigereye brew a simple cooldown ability, (2 or 3 Minutes) It could fulfill the DPS cooldown roll perfectly. Simply Increase all your damage, and convert all Physical damage you deal to Nature for a short time.

It would still be a simple DPS Buff, but it wouldn’t be a pet. Something I also do not enjoy

17 Likes

Windwalker Monk Feedback

A little about my experience with the class: I mained windwalker monk from the beginning of MoP to the end of Legion. I’ve tried something new in BfA after being unenthused about the changes for BfA, but I’d love to return to monk as it’s my favourite spec in the game. I’m an AOTC raider that dabbles in Mythic content.

General

In my opinion the class is at a point where it is well designed and engaging, but seems to always come up short when compared to Demon Hunter and Rogue, resulting in an unpopular spec. I personally don’t let comparisons like that dictate my choices, but a lot of players do, and I think we can all agree that the game would be better for everyone if Windwalker was on par.

In the past this has been satisfied by giving WW crazy AoE potential, and currently I think the strategy is that by giving leg sweep baseline, we’re the “stun” class. If Blizzard wants stunning to be WW’s niche, I think we have to go a lot farther than leg sweep, possibly giving stun back to FoF for example, and I’m not sure Blizzard wants to do that.

Overall, windwalker needs something. I don’t pretend to have the magical answer, but my feeling is that the answer could lie in enhancing SEF. This unique and iconic ability has so much potential to be modified through talents to serve different purposes. Previous versions of the ability could be accessible through talents, and if you allowed the clones to Leg sweep or interrupt, for example, you start to have a class with something unique to offer. More on SEF later though.

General Feedback on Alpha

  • Weapons: I love the return of 2H weapons. This is truly huge for me. Please do not revert this change!

  • Xuen: Again, love to see that Xuen will be baseline. This has always been a wonderful flavour ability that makes monk feel cool, even if it’s s simple concept. It always felt bad not taking Xuen as a talent. The fact that he’s baseline also now opens up the opportunity to enhance him through talents.

  • Touch of Death: I’m a little less enthusiastic about this change, as I really enjoy the gale burst mechanic, but it’s also something I don’t have really strong feelings about if most people like the reversion to the old version

  • Dance of Chi-Ji: I’m very happy this is becoming a talent. It’s fun ability and fits well on an AoE talent row. The only down side is that it’s pitted against Hit Combo, which I personally would like to see either baked into the class or removed from the game. I’ve never enjoyed choosing this talent in any of its iterations, but it’s always felt required. This, in my opinion, is the telltale sign of a talent that is damaging to the class.

Fortifying Brew: Glad to see its return as I strongly feel Monks are lacking in defensive abilities. This only issue with this ability is it’s interaction with Touch of Karma, which I will discuss below.

Overall: While I’m happy about the above changes, I’m a little underwhelmed with what I’m seeing. It seems that windwalker is always one of the last specs to get attention, which often results in it getting far less attention than other specs. I would love to see Blizzard use windwalker as a starting point instead of an afterthought.

Talents

Fist of the White Tiger: I think this ability needs to change and it needs to be baseline. It needs to change in that it has always felt like an inferior version of Strike of the Windlord from Legion. This ability should be the Legion version and different in name only, It should have the frontal cone, the shorter cool down, the 2 Chi generation, everything. SotW felt so so good in this spec, and it should be part of it permanently. This is also why it should be baseline. One of the reasons I didn’t want to play WW in BfA is because I dreaded the scenario where FotWT was not the optimal choice. I don’t want to play without that button in my rotation. It just seems to negatively affect the pace of the spec, which is particularly important for windwalker to be fun.

Good Karma: I think this talent needs to be reconsidered, along with Touch of Karma itself. ToK has always been problematic in that it is a defensive ability that we feel compelled to use offensively. That has been lessened in BfA, but the problem still exists, and now that Fortifying Brew is back it will be amplified. This is another key reason I chose not to play windwalker in BfA. I had simply had enough of the Karma damage game. The good news is that the fix is easy in my opinion. Instead of ToK doing damage to the target, just remove the damage output and make the base ability heal the monk. In short, bake in Good Karma and get rid of the damage. All that being said, there is one place where the damage from ToK works extremely well, and that is in PVP. With that in mind, there could be a PVP Talent called perhaps “Bad Karma” that brings back the damage output aspect in PVP situations.

Hit Combo: As I said earlier, it’s just gotta go. It’s not fun and it’s almost always required, and it basically means we don’t get to play with the other toys on the row.

Whirling Dragon Punch: The ability has been wonderful and fun since it came to the game (bugs aside). It should be baseline. It fits really well into the rotation, to the point that it’s not fun to take something else.

Serenity: I’ve never been crazy about this ability, largely because I have to lose SEF. I would much rather see it not affect SEF, and allow for all three clones to benefit from it. If that sounds OP then it should be balanced against other talents on the row with similar output. I don’t think its ever a good idea to make a talented ability weaker because other talents are also weak. The should all be awesome.

SEF: I put this in the talent section because I think that there is a huge missed opportunity in using talents to modify this ability. Spiritual Focus is a good start at this, but there is so much more that could be done. Some examples:

  • A talent that gives an additional clone
  • A talent that allows SEF to be used in it’s MoP/WoD form where you can control having 1 or 2 clones and assign their targets. (this would be so great)
  • A talent that allows for clones to proc for a short period of time, regardless of SEF. Sort of like the Fury of Xuen Azerite trait, but with clones instead of Xuen

I’m sure other folks can think of other awesome things, but I guess my point is that SEF has the potential to be what makes windwalkers unique. And whether you agree with me about he SEF or not, I think my other notes are things that should be urgently addressed, as I will be feeling less and less inclined to return to my windwalker in Shadowlands if I see that the class is not getting the attention it needs and deserves.

Those are my thoughts for now. Thank you for your hard work on this expansion.

38 Likes

I agree with you a lot here. I don’t by any means dislike Ascension or Energizing Elixir but I think our opener is messy with the # of GCDs we dump into it. Adding FoWT doesn’t help with the amount of abilities but if it took a more defined role in the baseline kit it could go a long way in improving the flow from start to finish.

I’d hate to see ToK damage removed entirely from gameplay. The difference right now at 11,000 health w & w/o fort is maybe 10 - 15 % ToK damage depending on the number of uses on a fight ranging from 5 - 7 minutes. As long as the overall damage damage contribution of Touch of Karma is not massive like it was on the launch of BFA it’ll really be a non factor. In WoD it wasn’t huge on its own. Once you started doing it with Nitro Fuel into Soul Capacitor it started to be something else entirely.

I think the largest thing with Serenity in BFA was that we didn’t have many options to buff the damage of globals spent inside the Serenity window.

The damage reduction going into the expansion nearly destroyed its ability to stand on its own and it wasn’t really until Essences and better trinkets that I think it started to become usable (in M+, I haven’t been paying attention to raids).

Gameplay without clones should be an option. I personally don’t care much for them and BFA without a viable Serenity tier is one of the reason I switched off the class for raiding.

8 Likes

MISTWEAVER MONK FEEDBACK

What we would like to see fundamentally change for Shadowlands:

  • First, and most importantly, the return of Chi as a resource to spend. The majority of us yearn for our former style of healing seen in MoP and WoD, with damage being your builders, and your heals being spenders (i.e. Jab Jab Uplift). In the current patch, there are no comparable builders, outside of perhaps Renewing Mist’s interaction with Rising Mist—which results in a strong, yet one dimensional and flat playstyle.

  • Second, a more dynamic AoE heal. Currently, simply pressing Essence Font and nothing else for 3-6 seconds is the optimal approach to raid healing, considering that the raw output of Essence Font is tied to its initial hits. If some of that power was allotted to the HoT’s mechanic instead, it would introduce a playstyle where pressing Essence Font proactively could produce a fun and interactive flow of casts, in which you are focused on chasing HoTs as damage goes out, rather than its current reactionary design.

  • Third, we were extremely upset to see Glimmer Paladin not only take our historically niche gameplay from us, but that it was so powerful throughout the entirety of BFA that it forced MW out of the raid healing meta… using our own fantasy. Rising Mist was a minor step closer, but it is harder to play with less impact than Glimmer (and they have DR on top of that). Additionally, it produces very (very) linear gameplay where the optimal healing approach can be boiled down to: get your 20 Renewing Mists out and then turn into a Rising Sun Kick bot. We felt the shift from a unique DPS healer to straight throughput in Legion was not loyal to Mistweaver fantasy.

  • Fourth, we would love mastery to become more impactful. As of right now, our mastery has not changed in its transition from live to alpha. We are the only healing spec where mastery has ZERO impact on talents, cooldowns, DPS, and our raid CD, which makes it an insanely weak stat. It needs to scale with our entire kit of abilities, so that it is somewhat useful in all combat scenarios, like every other stat.

Covenant feedback:

  • Our Kyrian ability, Weapons of Order, ties even more power to the extremely dull choice of pressing Essence Font. Hopefully there will be some iteration on this ability.

  • Our other covenant abilities should see more Monk fantasy/flavor attached to them, as Weapon of Order contains little to none (see Priest and Druid as references for appropriately-themed abilities).

Some minor fixes we would like to see to current abilities:

  • Mana tea should be off the GCD, or return to its former state. It feels horrible when, for example, in your:
    • 1st GCD: Your group takes damage while you are locked to your current GCD.
    • 2nd GCD: You press Mana Tea so that you can optimally heal your group using the tools in your kit to reduce the pressure on your mana pool.
    • 3rd GCD: You press WotC (or Invoke Chi-Ji in Shadowlands), which does nothing immediately.
    • 4th GCD: You press your first ability that will actually heal someone.

Healers differ from DPS in that when we react to damage, it needs to start immediately, as opposed to 4 globals from now.

  • Way of the Crane/Invoke Chi-Ji should be a smarter heal, prioritizing targets that are low on health rather than overhealing a healthy target.
  • Revival should see some class flavor attached to it. Yu’lon appearing above you in Legion was amazing; now it feels relatively underwhelming to press.

Mistweaver has lost more and more of its niche gameplay as each expansion has released. I think I can speak for everyone who created a Monk in Pandaria that we crave its older playstyles (MoP/WoD)—it’s been a rocky road for those who have decided to stick with the spec since then. Much like Shaman (until recently), Mistweaver has been lacking the attention it has desperately lacked for several years now. We appreciate all the work you do, and look forward to seeing what changes for Shadowlands :slight_smile:

225 Likes

I wanted to give my feedback as brewmaster. Outside of bugs, I am really enjoying the changes. I think the description for celestial brew needs to be updated to mention that its based on stacks of purifying brew instead of being vague. I also think there needs to be some way to know how big your absorption shield is from celestial brew without mousing over the buff since the buff is so short.
The rotation feels good for about 10 sec before I run out of energy and end up having a couple secs of downtime. Either energy regen needs to be increased, or the energy cost of certain abilities needs to be decreased
Also, with the replacement of blackout strike with kick, brewmasters only use their weapon when using spinning crane kick which feels very weird and makes the weapon feel useless (especially when using a 2H weapon). Maybe the animation for blackout strike should be used if you use a 2H?

16 Likes

Brewmaster Monk Feedback. PT: 2.

With the newest Patch: Celestial Brew is still unaffected by haste, but it is now effected by your Cooldown reduction from your rotation.

This goes a great way towards filling in the constant “dead space” in the Brewmaster rotation, and overall is a wonderful change to the work in progress spec.

The Addition of Clash, and Invoke Niuzao both provide interesting and unique utilities to the tank specialization and are a warm welcome.
However, Clash currently has a very underwhelming animation. I am surprised they didn’t use the same effect for Warriors “Charge” that was updated in legion.
Again, this seems like a minor oversight, and could easily be fixed in a later patch.

Celestial Brew now provides a direct, instantaneous mitigation tool for all encounters. The loss of Ironskin brew is still felt in a few ways however that continue to exist as blemishes on the spec.

For example: Why does purifying brew have charges at all, if those charges are not shared with anything? Purifying brew is not an ability you would ever want to spam, so having multiple charges instead of a single short cooldown seems like an odd choice.

Another Example: Abilities like Black Ox Brew, special delivery, and the new Celestial Flames are significantly reduced in power, now that brewmaster only has 1 brew for instant damage mitigation.

Purifying brew is always used sparingly, and Celestial brew, while more prevalent now. Doesn’t have any charges and therefore doesn’t really benefit as much from Black Ox Brew. And doesn’t provide as much damage from special delivery or celestial flames.

Perhaps Ironskin could return as a talent or baseline to the class, and function as a second, significant mitigation tool for the Brewmaster to make the class feel less passive overall. But this is a major step in the correct direction.

Hopefully the specialization continues to improve, and brushes off some of the clunky aspects.

5 Likes

Purifying brew has charges because the more stacks of purifying brew you have, the bigger your shield from celestial brew, so being able to pop 2 in quick succession is necessary for being able to prep for a big hit if you don’t currently have any stacks of purifying brew up.

4 Likes

If it only has 2 charges in order to make celestial brew more powerful, why not just make Purifying brew cleanse 75% of stagger.

if it cleanses 50% stagger, then 50% of the remainder. Then that adds up to 75%

The charges are completely unnecessary in the current incarnation. If Purifying brew shared charges with something else, then the charges would have an important purpose, because they would provide choice between using all the charges on purify, or using them on something else.
I suggest immediate damage mitigation in the form of Ironskin Brew.

3 Likes

I think having 2 charges for Purfying Brew is a must, since you can use a charge just before the second one finish his CD, so it allows you to slowly build these stacks for the big Celestial Brew shield AND you always have one on CD. That also gives you some kind of ‘‘safty net’’ having 1 charge ready at all time. If I had only 1 Charge on Purifying Brew, I would probably stick to it for that one big hit from the boss and therefore reduce my ‘‘Celestial Brew buff stack’’ min-maxing and my overall fun of keeping my Stagger to a manageble level for my healer.

TLDR: 1 charge of Purifying Brew kills either the intent of using it when needed for High Stagger or using it to build the Celestial Brew stack buff.

2 Likes

Purifying brew should have SOMETHING that competes with it, in order to give you a more dire choices.

You should be able to choice to give up that “safety net” to get something else. Like more instant mitigation for instance.
This also gives Black Ox Brew a major use. should you talent it

1 Like

Well I disagree, BrM always have physical mitigation up in some way. The intent of Purifying Brew is to keep your Stagger on a manageable number. Celestial Brew on the other hand should remain 1 charge only, since it’s a ‘‘oh sh*t’’ or a ‘‘that gonna hurt’’ button and I can already see how strong this would be with mutiple charges since it’s instant damage absorb/mitigation.

Also, if you look at other Tank spec (unless there is alpha changes i’m not aware of), Warrior has 2 Shield Block charges, Paladin can have up to 5 HP so you can store 1 and 2/3 of SoTR, DK can store enough RP for mutiple DS, same for DH.

I think the current Shadowlands BrM mitigation toolkit is currently very rewarding and fun for those who enjoy that style of mitigation. Celestial Brew is a welcome addition and probably needs some number adjustment, but I can already feel the synergie with Purifying Brew intended by the devs and so far I really enjoy it. IB is/was boring to simply keep up/manage for good BrM players and kinda hard to figure out and get use to by newer Monk players since it shares CD with Purifying Brew.

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I would rather not have my class be almost entirely passive except for “Oh sh*t” buttons.
Brewmaster has practically no control over the damage they mitigate outside of Celestial brew. Purifying brew keeps your stagger in check, but that’s it.

I don’t think all the tank specs should be so homogenized.

I’m suggesting changes to fix that very thing that don’t involve straight up removing the ability from the Brewmaster spellbook. And saying it’s too hard for new players is never a good excuse.

The Synergy between purifying brew and celestial brew is excellent. But it shouldn’t be the ENTIRE class.

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I don’t feel like Purifying Brew is ‘‘passive’’. I actually think it needs some level of understanding of your character limits, your healer(s) limit and knowledge of the encounter to know when to use it and not waste it or under-use it. What I consider passive is simply keeping up a buff 100% (which isn’t super hard when u start getting your rotation on point to reduce brews CD). This buff is now given in the Alpha via your normal rotation which I think is a great change. However, I could say when you are out of range or there is no enemy in range, this I consider a downside. At the same time you can push the duration of the buff enough to disengage an enemy for a few seconds without the buff expiring so in Raid scenario that probably wouldn’t be an issue (we will have to wait to test it). Managing your Purifying Brew to remove as much damage staggered as possible WHILE pushing as many stack of Celestial Brew buff isn’t passive from my point of view.

Something more passive would be (this is off topic but just as an example) Prot Paladin having enough haste to have 100% uptime of SoTR.

Actually, I would make the argument BrM is one of the Tank spec with the best control over damage mitigation. You react to damage taken via Purifying Brew without the massive damage taken directly. DK and DH does the same with self heal but they are taking that massive hit first, then healing a portion of it, which makes them more often in dangerous situation.

Disclaimer: When i use the term ‘‘Passif’’ I’m not talking about the in-game spellbook passives, rather how the gameplay feels.

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I raise the counterpoint that Purifying brew is also not incredibly “active” in the playstyle of brewmaster.

Purifying brew only exists to keep your stagger bar within manageable levels. It doesn’t actively prevent you from gaining stagger, it doesn’t provide any instantaneous damage mitigation to incoming attacks.
Functionally, by cleansing you stagger with Purifying Brew. The only thing you have accomplished is making your healers job easier.

Brewmaster could still benefit from a tool to control their stagger bar in another way.

The current effect of ironskin brew is baked into the Brewmaster rotation Via Shuffle. This is great, as Ironskin brew in it’s current itteration is very passive and ultimately only exists to have 100% uptime.

What If Ironskin brew Provided significantly increased stagger but only for a few seconds. 2 or 3.
You could never have 100% uptime on it, But it would allow you stagger much more damage when used. Leading to a stagger bar quickly dipping into the high red area.

This could then be purified for a Huge celestial brew shield.
Or you could use Ironskin and Celestial brew at the same time, in order to massively reduce the damage from 1 or 2 attacks.

As I said earlier. The combination of Celestial brew and Purifying brew is excellent. It adds a lot to the spec. But it shouldn’t be the ONLY trick the tank has.

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