Feedback: Midnight Season 2 Class Sets

I don’t really understand why we are continuing to double down on this tier set. All of the testing I’ve done on the PTR, it just isn’t fun. I have seen tons of negative feedback here on the forums regarding this set bonus with very few positive responses in comparison. It is even stated as a point of feedback as “degenerative gameplay”, in the original post.

Being forced to spend Divine Purpose on Divine Storm in Single target just does not feel fun. There are far more interesting talents this tier set could be tied too that don’t involve an RNG proc and pressing Divine Storm in Single Target. They’ve reworked the Blood Death Knight tier set, PLEASE consider reworking this too.

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The change from haste to crit on holy priest tier set is perfect. Thank you for listening to our feedback!

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Oh my god this is so bad. One of the worst tier sets I have seen. For the love of god, stop playing with the damage profile of this spec. It is FINE! If I wanted to have a flat damage profile I would play Outlaw…

agree completely, they need to just scrap the tier sets bonuses and go back to the chalk board, most if not all tier set bonuses is lackluster, bland and boring.

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Some overarching feedback on some of these set bonuses:

Continuing the discussion from Midnight: Curse of Ula'tek PTR Development Notes:

This set bonus is inoffensive but still painfully boring. If the end goal is to make a more gameplay-altering series of set bonuses, this one fails miserably. I don’t think Blood DKs are actively interested in pressing more Marrowrends, and the Shadow damage proc needs to be incredibly strong for this set bonus to feel as impactful as the stated goals above imply it should be. It also seems to heavily incentivize Deathbringer over San’layn (since the former presses Marrowrend a LOT more than the latter), making the set bonus seem very restrictive on paper. Even if the Shadow damage proc is strong, this is just an incredibly passive, unnoticeable set bonus that has no major impact on the spec’s gameplay.

Please go back to the drawing board for this one; Essence Break is a very unpopular ability and the last thing many Havoc players want is to start using Essence Break again, let alone use Essence Break more often.

2pc is great, but the 4pc isn’t going to be very impactful beyond some specific burst damage scenarios (which you’re explicitly nerfing next season). This isn’t something that’s gameplay-altering and nerfing Aug’s current 2pc (which is, of course, extremely strong) isn’t going to make this 4pc more interesting.

…surely you can come up with something more impactful than this, right? These are just the simplest passive damage increases with no rotational impact whatsoever. The other two specs have much more interesting set bonuses than this, even if BM’s is also entirely passive.

This one also needs to go back to the drawing board. I get that the focus is intended to be on Tentacle Slam, but we’re not pressing Tentacle Slam for its upfront damage. With current tuning, you could bump this up to a high three or even low four-digit number and its upfront damage would still be pathetic. At the moment, it’s less than half a percent of our damage, but we’re incentivized to cast it due to our extremely strong Apex Talent and because it applies our DoTs, especially in AoE.

The 4pc has a neat idea behind it by virtue of bringing back a form of Unfurling Darkness, but it just doesn’t work out well in practice. Apparitions aren’t doing THAT much damage, and hardcasting Vampiric Touch in any capacity feels awkward with this current iteration of Shadow to the point where it doesn’t come close to capturing what made MT feel good with Voidweaver.

Perhaps some sort of interaction between Tentacle Slam and Shadow Word: Death would be a bit better? SWD is an ability that has been ignored for quite a while (outside of eating shields alive as Voidweaver, which is a hyper-specific interaction that only comes up very briefly and on a small handful of bosses, i.e. Queen Ansurek and Gallywix) and a set bonus that keeps the focus on Tentacle Slam but synergizes with SWD over Vampiric Touch would keep the spirit of this set bonus but feel a bit stronger numerically, since as it stands this one is providing triple-digit increases to abilities that involve some extremely low base numbers already.

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Why Was The Original 12.1 Tier Set So Disliked?

Well, there are a lot of people and opinions out there, so it is hard to say I can fully explain this, but, after seeing a lot of discourse on the subject I think it boils down to a combination of three factors:

  1. The tier set did nothing to address existing pain points with BDK in higher M+ (no defensive value)
  2. The tier set wasn’t overly impactful in any case from a power-level perspective
  3. The tier set actively encouraged the player to play more passively with DnD (waiting for Crimson Scourge), while also indirectly punishing them if they used DnD without a proc for whatever reason.

For point one, it is my personal interpretation that Blizzard is a bit wary of putting significant defensive bonuses on tier sets ever since Dragonflight ended, since these have, at times, led to certain tanks becoming oppressively strong in certain seasons due to strong tier set tuning (balancing defensive benefits is also a trickier ordeal than balancing offensive benefits). That being said, it is very hard to make tier sets interesting on tanks if they completely ignore the defensive side of their kit. There are pros and cons to this design decision.

For point two, people will always want high-performing tier set bonuses on the specs they are playing, so there is neither much to speak on this point nor is there anything to explicitly do about it. The only small caveat I would add in here is that if a spec is thought to be doing well in raid relative to M+, there is certainly potential to skew tier set performance to multiple target situations even if it is only a damage benefit.

For point three, I think this was probably the main point of discontent even if people had a hard time putting their finger on it. We have had times in BDK’s history where they played more deliberately around Crimson Scourge, and there’s nothing inherently wrong with that, though it is a more passive playstyle over dropping DnD whenever your baseline DnD buffs fade. That being said, it is a little different when a tier set itself is altering gameplay to become a more passive playstyle. Plus, there are plenty of situations where you would potentially want to use DnD regardless even if you don’t have Crimson Scourge (as a ranged filler or for the snare) and the way the old tier set was designed would mean that these types of DnD casts would delay the next Crimson Scourge proc and, by happenstance, delay the associated benefits. As such, the tier set operating around Crimson Scourge just seemed to play poorly from what people generally are looking for out of tier sets, which is some “cool” or “nifty” effect that may or may not come along with gameplay changes (hopefully ones that feel good such as TWW S3 giving Deathbringer for Blood a higher rate of Exterminate casts).

What About The New Prototype Tier Set Bonus for 12.1?

If there is one thing that we can say about the new tier set, is that it seemingly does not push the player into a more passive gameplay loop. It is very Bloodied Blade-esque in its benefit scheme for one reason or another. Since it ramps based on Death Strike cast frequency, it is a bonus that benefits from higher player haste (since more haste is more Death Strike casts per minute) and, for Blood, that means it is biased towards San’layn. There is some possibility that you gain multiple Blood Debt stacks per target hit via Deadly Reach, which would give it better AoE scaling, but I would assume otherwise. Instead of an automatic triggering of the capstone effect (like Bloodied Blade), it, instead, seems to trigger from the next Marrowrend cast; giving that Marrowrend a Shadow damage explosion effect and 3 extra stacks of Bone Shield.

Honestly, the choice of Marrowrend for a triggering effect is a little odd and so is the 3 extra stacks of Bone Shield. This effect is likely to work in three ways:

  1. If you have 10 stacks of Blood Debt, the next Marrowrend cast on this 10 stack is empowered and transforms the buff.

  2. If you have 10 stacks of Blood Debt, it will, after a few seconds, convert to a new buff for the empowered Marrowrend, with new Blood Debt stacks having the ability to generate in the meantime.

  3. If you have 10 stacks of Blood Debt, it will, after a few seconds, convert to a new buff for the empowered Marrowrend, with new Blood Debt stacks NOT having the ability to generate in the meantime (and potentially not during the 10% Strength capstone buff as well).

So, in case 1, you have the option of indefinitely sustaining the 5% strength buff as long as you want, maybe even going so far as to use Death’s Caress to generate Bone Shield in the meantime if it is mathematically beneficial to do so. Granted, tuning would likely come down in the other direction and encourage you to Marrowrend as soon as possible.

Case 2 would be much more relaxed with the timing of the empowered Marrowrend, giving you more leeway to use that Marrowrend under normal rotational circumstances (for more efficient Bone Shield generation) without losing potential benefits (a playstyle that already occurs with Deathbringer to some extent with Exterminate).

Case 3 would very much encourage you to spend Marrowrend as soon as possible so you would not waste potential tier set benefits, similar to the likely outcome to Case 1.

Unless we got the flexible-use case of case 2, it is most likely the case that we would want to spend this capstone proc as soon as possible and, as such, we wouldn’t put too much consideration into our current Bone Shield levels when we do so. As such, giving Marrowrend 3 extra Bone Shield generation on this proc probably just means a lot of that extra Bone Shield generation is wasted (which is especially the case, regardless, if any amount of DRWs are active from the apex talent or a manual cast).

So, I find the use of Marrowrend here for triggering the capstone a little bit goofy. Honestly, just having it proc from Death Strike, just like the previous stacks, would probably make more sense without having it open the door to either weird degenerate behavior (you simply don’t have the ability to game Death Strike timings to a significant degree) or the case where you are using a 2 rune Marrowrend that feels kind of bad to press (at least without added rune cost discounts). If I was being pedantic, “Blood Debt” could probably be changed to something that makes a little more sense, but that really doesn’t matter all that much.

In either case, gameplay impacts are relatively minor, seemingly, but exactly how it would play out would come down to final mechanics/tuning.

Final Thoughts

Just by virtue of moving away from Crimson Scourge, I think this ends up being an improvement over the previous tier set from a gameplay perspective. It does raise some new questions, yes, but those can’t fully be evaluated at this time given the tentative information that was provided.

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Continuing the discussion from Midnight: Curse of Ula’tek PTR Development Notes:

After testing this out some more, a few of the major issues still persist.

  • Issue 1: Using AoE abilities in ST Rotation, or ST in AoE
  • Feedback: It still just doesn’t feel great to “have” to use Divine Storm in Single Target rotations, or to prioritize FV during AoE ones. It can just ruin the flow.

  • Issue 2: Lost of Player Choice and Agency over what to spend Divine Purpose On

  • Feedback: Divine Purpose’s draw is the fact that I can use DP on whatever Holy Power makes the most sense in that moment. For example, casting 2 WoG’s back-to-back because a DP proc’d feels really powerful and rewarding.

    While I still can use DP on other abilities, it feels “punishing” to do so, and due to the RNG nature of DP, could have a negative snow-ball effect feeling.


  • Issue 3: “Queueing” up a Spell in the Heat of Battle can Consume DP without you expecting it. :slight_smile:

  • Feedback: So this is a “getgud” situation for sure, but due to how Crusading Strikes generates Holy Power, there are times when you are at 5HP, and you know you’re about to generate 1 Holy Power with your Swing Timer, and you just “accidently” hit FV back-to-back… quickly consuming the DP Proc.

    As a Templar Paladin especially now;

    • 5 Holy Power Generated

    • Hammer of Light (-3 Holy Power)

    • 2 → 3 Holy Power about to Generate in the Swing Timer

    • Final Verdict

      If that Hammer of Light just so happened to Proc a Divine Purpose, then you can find yourself quickly consuming that DP with keyboard input, especially during Blood Lust, without really “planning” on it.

    • It’s just a bad combination of Ret’s “fast pace – whack-a-mole” game play, Crusading Strikes HP generation, and computer/keyboard/lag input.


  • Issue 4: Adding back Burst, after it being removed, tied to RNG

  • Feedback: Again, just another easy point of feedback. This adds back a pretty decent amount of Burst back to our already overburden Burst Window (Templar especially).

    Add in how RNG this feels and it’s just not a great gameplay experience. =/


Overall, I’m still not a really big fan on this set bonus, it still feels “forced,” like it removes a bit of player choice, clunky, and unintuitive.

  • Crusading Strikes, Art of War Procs, Light’s Deliverance, Utility, Positioning, etc… is already a lot too track. To also now track Divine Arbiter Stacks just feels like it’s getting to be too much for your casual gamer.
  • Paladin Cooldowns really need to be updated/modernized – they aren’t fun and engaging, and things like ES can really overload this Set Bonus.
  • Too much is still happening in the Templar Burst Windows, and Hammer of Light being 3 HP feels worse in these Divine Purpose procing moments of gameplay, where snap RNG can feel wasted due to “Spell Queueing.”

Edit: Also, maybe a lesser issue just due to the length of Patches, but it could also feel a bit jarring for your casual player to get such a big “change” from a set bonus 4-5 weeks into the Season or whenever the Catalyst charges stack up.

While I understand its part of the ‘ever evolving gameplay’ – and the challenge and intention of these Set Designs — it doesn’t feel great to play Divine Purpose a certain way for X weeks, only to have a Catalyst Timing kindof dictate your gameplay. :smiley:

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i’ve been begging them to drop the ghost focus for years now and double down on SW:D maybe not the uh, was it dragonflight or TWW that had us spamming that button relentlessly? like deathspeaker pre-midnight was cool i liked the proc resets, but the proc reset on top of death and madness just felt like too much. just lemme hit it when it lights up every now and then for a big chunk. gimmie some painbreaker pslam love even

Havoc tier set feels horrible to play around.

The 4p introduces desyncs within the rotation.

The base cooldown of Eye Beam is 30 seconds. The base cooldown of Essence Break is 40 seconds.

The 4p makes Essence Break be affected by Cycle of Hatred, reducing its cooldown by a max of 10 seconds.

That means Eye Beam has 20 seconds CD and Essence Break has 30 CD when Cycle of Hatred is fully ramped.

Right now, Essence Break syncs every 2nd Eye Beam usage. With the tier set it will be every third!

The tier set also makes the Essence Break’s debuff window longer than Demonic which feels very off

Also, sending Essence Break with Eye Beam is a staple because of the fury needed to make use of the window. Also, with the buffs to Essence Break the logical reasoning is synching it with Inertia which has a 20 second CD.

PLEASE! Change the tier set and if you want to keep the Cycle of Hatred usage, add a bonus to the 4p that reduces Essence Break cooldown by 10 seconds so it can be synched again.

This wouldn’t be an issue at all because the tier set is also numerally very weak!

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I like the new BDK bonus a lot better. I think it’s skewed more toward San’layn, but I think that’s fine: San’layn has been considered less playable. One of the reasons is that its optimal gameplay skews away from hitting Marrowrend as frequently and having a harder time maintaining Boneshield stacks than Deathbringer, so the extra three stacks combined with a happier reason to hit Marrowrend are great there.

Re: the ret paladin set: there are about five people upset about it and posting a lot. For my part, getting to hit the most visually exciting baseline spender on occasion in single target is fun! I like this set.

Nice feedback

Fire mage tierset.

The tier set is a dud and lemme explain.

I also like a bit fat pyro like the days of yore but current iteration is not it.

It forces you to pick expensive talents, severely limiting build diversity

It forces you into haste versa which is a major handicap. Half your capstones want mastery, aoe and cleave want mastery , even burnout wants mastery. Basically this tier set invalidates half your tree and mechanics. Its anti-synergestic.

It also invalidates gameplay inside combust where procs happen most often since there are very few and strict conditions where you cast pyroclasm.

It invalidates a whole hero tree in FF which does not offer ANY pyroclasm support or adda to its gameplay. The only saving grace might be tuning to just blatantly ramp up numbers to the point that a disjointed gameplay can perform .

It its current iteration, the tier set actively fights fire mage, with the promise of a better downtime ,but from testing that is not the case. The damage profile is the same, downtime is the same or lower, proc chance in downtime is rng and can be extremely feast or famine( i ddnt have a single clasm proc outside combust for 2 whole minutes and inside it i overcapped and wasted it. ) its also a dps loss to cast clasm in combust for FF and SF struggles heavily to fit it in.

All and all while the idea of pyroclasm is always good and can feel impactful, its current pathing, implementation and synergy with how fire is designed leaves a ton to be wanted.

Please rethink of the tierset and rework it to something that doesnt force a talent which is capstone. Do it for meteor

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The change to the 2pc Holy Priest set is appreciated! Crit will be much more useful than haste so thank you.

The 4pc bonus is still non-interactive and does nothing to change how we play though. The disc priest set encourages mind blast and rewards you for paying attention to the order you use abilities in.

Maybe move the guaranteed Renew and 10% buff to the holy priest 2pc and make the holy priest 4pc give 5% crit for having renews up and a new effect. Giving renew a chance per tick (capped at some decent ppm like 5 or 6) to proc a charge of Benediction or cause the application of Renew to lower the CD of our Holy Words would make for something we actually would want to pay some attention to.

Can the set bonus for shadow priest be adjusted so that it makes a little more sense? Currently you are pressing Tentacle Slam (which applies vampiric touch) and it’s making your next vampiric touch instant? It’s extremely redundant everywhere except for large pulls in keys.

It would make more sense in more scenarios if it were giving you a charge of shadowy insight or buffing your next SW:D or something.

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Ret dev please read this ^^^^^^^^

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Exactly, all this.

I’m not really too concerned about it, but I get it. But also knowing that you have 2 Final Verdicts coming up that are going to blast feels really good

I can see this for sure, but also how often are you going to be pressing WoG anyway?

I feel like this is kinda a super niche scenario though, no?

Hard disagree here - what part of becoming a Holy Warrior crashing down with holy light and destroying your enemies don’t you like? :stuck_out_tongue: the cooldowns feel great to play, assuming they tune them so that we actually take those talents

You’re not asking them to go back to 5 holy power, now are you? :eyes:

I really hope there’s and updated patch notes soon.

We probably won’t see them till tomorrow. I have been watching the thread like a hawk.

several weeks into PTR and the SV tier set hasn’t changed much.

  • it’s more simple than the 12.0 tier set
  • it does not create any cool or impactful moments. you put it on and your damage goes up. there are no exciting moments of “yes, i have my 12.1 tier set!”’ instead it passively raises your damage , with no gameplay changes
  • there are no procs to track, no buffs to manage. mongoose fury keeps itself up as long as you are pressing buttons on your keyboard
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