Feedback: Mages

Then what is replacing Greater INvis for Arcane mages?

I really am being honest here, what in what I said is aggressive? I made a quip about perhaps they shouldn’t be in game development if their feelings are that fragile or arrogant.

I guess my frustration is showing, but seriously, how can the dev or devs be willing to comment for other classes but not ours? We are going to end up like shamans in legion.

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This post is written with exclusively raiding in mind.

Arcane Talents Feedback

Lastly, my feedback to the Arcane talents. I have already covered other Arcane talents here on Arcane Cooldowns and here on Spell-Queue Bugs. This is for the remaining talents that I think are problematic.


Arcane Echo: Firstly, and this one is important: Arcane Echo does not scale mastery. I repeat, Arcane Echo does not scale with mastery. It has not scaled with mastery for the entirety of Shadowlands, and I believe it is the only damaging Arcane spell that does not scale. Even the, at best, negligible damage of Radiant Spark scales with mastery! Fix this.


Impetus: The random Arcane Charges given by this talent are at best annoying and at worst counter-productive when playing Arcane. I may not want to spend mana, but Impetus can randomly proc and put me at 4 Arcane Charges, and I will naturally spell-queue another Arcane Blast expecting to be at 3 Arcane Charges. This feels bad. Furthermore, its placement in the tree is weird. It is the only way to get the much more attractive talent Amplification, in a side of the tree that appears to focus on Clearcasting talents. It feels like a filler talent that has been placed arbitrarily.


Chrono Shift/Improved Prismatic Barrier/Supernova: These are relatively weak utility and defensive talents that I do not think have any reason even to be independent talents in the first place. These are certainly not attractive enough in the same way Cauterize is for Fire to give up throughput talents. These talents just feel like filler with no real reason to exist otherwise.

Furthermore, it is the case that the Shadowlands Fire talent Frenetic Speed was baked into the new Improved Scorch talent as a bonus on top of the throughput part of the talent. Why can Chrono Shift not get the same treatment with the Improved Arcane Barrage talent?


Slipstream: I think that Slipstream is an amazing mobility skill for Arcane that is already competitive with Shimmer in Shadowlands, where they share a talent row. It is therefore also very disappointing how it is locked behind several very bad talents that have nothing to do with Clearcasting Arcane Missiles or Evocation. You have to pick Nether Precision, which has its slew of problems, and then either Impetus or Improved Arcane Explosion. This feels very bad. This leads back to my belief that certain talents simply should not exist, and that this section of the talent tree needs to be reshuffled.


Prodigious Savant: I like the idea of this talent, but not its placement within the talent tree. The line of talents that leads to the Orb Barrage capstone talent does not make a whole lot of sense. Compare that to the other side where you have:

  1. Illuminated Thoughts → Concentration → Arcane Harmony

The intention and synergy are clear. Prodigious Savant seems to me to exist to restrain the number of capstone talents that can be picked up, rather than offering something meaningful to the capstone talent that follows it.


Improved Arcane Explosion: This is not just about the talent, but also about the spell Arcane Explosion in general. Arcane Explosion is a spell that feels unrewarding to press for Arcane. With or without Improved Arcane Explosion the spell does very little damage, and it has very little interaction with Clearcasting despite consuming it. Arcane Missiles gets 20% faster channel time from Clearcasting and gets the Amplification and Slipstream talents which makes it very rewarding to consume Clearcasting with Arcane Missiles. Arcane Explosion should get the same treatment.

As a side note, I think Arcane Explosion can be given more value by incorporating it into the Orb Barrage talent. Specifically, my suggestion is that casting Arcane Explosion (that also hits a target) counts as a stack, and consuming Clearcasting with Arcane Explosion counts as two, in addition to its existing functionality with Arcane Missiles.


Arcane Barrage talents in general: I think the base functionality of Arcane Barrage has been broken up into too many individual talents. Both Improved Arcane Barrage and Mana Adept is baseline functionality of Arcane Barrage in Shadowlands, and it feels bad having to pick it up again. This is particularly true for Mana Adept, which is a lot weaker when it is a standalone talent like this.

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Greater Invisibility is not in the Arcane spec tree. It’s in the Mage class tree. Therefore, there was nothing I needed to do with it, unlike Cauterize which is still in the Fire spec tree. That’s not to say I don’t think Arcane shouldn’t have a spec exclusive defensive comparable to Cauterize since GI was given away to the class tree.

I was just trying to keep the tree as close to original as I could in structure while trying to make a few improvements to address several issues myself and others have noticed. I just wasn’t really up to picking apart the entire fire spec tree to see what would best go in place of Cauterize so it could be moved to the class tree and become part of a choice node with Greater Invisibility.

With the current position of Cauterize in the Fire tree, I think it can be moved to the general without needing to find a replacement at all. It is already completely optional, and does not lead to any other talent uniquely. It would make no difference to the tree if the node simply did not exist, in my opinion.

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Well I have no objection to moving it to the class tree! :smiley:

Also, I have now written the last feedback post I wanted to write. Like others have said, it does feel like I am just pointlessly writing into the void. But there is nothing else to be done any more other than to cross our fingers and hope there will be a reaction soon from Blizzard. :slight_smile:

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I’m honestly surprised and disappointed that, with all the announced talent adjustments coming for so many classes with the next beta update, that Mages were left on the sidelines… again. We got the initial talent version, one iteration on that, and nothing else. We’ve had little to no actual feedback from the blues, or any acknowledgement of the feedback players have given thus far. I’ll be very sad if the trees go live in this state. :frowning:

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Just to piggyback off of this, it would be great to perhaps look back to Legion and bring back the echoing Explosions as a clearcasting benefit for it?

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Agreeing with the others that the lack of communication about Mages is incredibly frustrating and disappointing, given that the other classes are getting very detailed posts explaining the design philosophy and intent behind their changes. Plus the other classes are actually getting changes addressing the feedback, while Mage isn’t.

The one and only major reviewal of our trees was mentioned by the devs 29 days ago in this thread. There has been zero response to feedback about that iteration and next to zero changes addressing the continued concerns and feedback players have been giving.

Frost may potentially be the only spec tree in the game so far that has, since being formally published at the end of July, received almost zero major reviewal at all. Based on the notes, all it has had is primarily damage tuning and reducing a couple of talent points down – the tree structure and basically every single talent has not been touched. This is extremely concerning given the extensive feedback posted in this thread since the class was released by multitudes of players about some talents being highly problematic, such as Arctic Piercing, Wintertide encouraging (and not resolving) proc munching, the continued high volume of Icy Veins talents, Glacial Spike having no/anti-synergy with the other capstones, Cold Front encouraging ignoring Ice Lance, Snowstorm being too slow to be worth it, Improved Blizzard nerf needing to be reverted, and the continued addition of dead talents like Ebonbolt and Ray of Frost that will never be picked.

The Class tree is still plagued with problems and concerns, particularly around the capstones, which many players have mentioned to length.

It is clear that there is a disconnect between what players want and enjoy vs what the devs want. The players are owed an explanation as we don’t all seem to be on the same page. If the devs feel the trees are fine and they have decided they will not be proceeding with any further iterations then say that so we can stop testing and providing feedback, and justify why you think the trees are fine when players do not. It feels like we are talking to a brick wall and this happens to Mages every expansion where we get next to no communication about the direction of the class.

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They definitely need to increase the duration of BM by atleast 1, maybe 2 seconds. Right now it just feels impossible to keep rolling.

It doesn’t feel great to press on Beta compared to live - but I think it’s still a necessary part of Fire’s tool kit - even in it’s lesser form. I think adding the NF leggo ability as a subsequent node after SP would be ideal, but I’m not sure if Blizzard will go in that direction.

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I don’t hate this as an alternative to SKB, but just worried that it’s too similar to SKB for them to do it. Fire would honestly be fine if they fixed Tempered Flames to make an SKB competitor, increased the duration of Blaster Master by a second or two, and reworked SP to have an additional node that gives us back the NF leggo and makes SP at least exist in it’s live form (I think this would also make it a more attractive option for other specs as well). I would be fairly happy with Fire if those things came to pass.

Granted, I feel as though our AOE damage is still fairly low, but with better haste and the above changes, that might change.

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So um Blizzard are you finished with the mage talents for Dragonflight? Is time to close the thread down?

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I sure hope not. The mage trees aren’t exactly in a great spot.

There’s a ton of good feedback in here. Hopefully they consider and implement some of it.

Also just a quick reiteration of a sentiment shown numerous times in this thread… buff glacial spike! Make it interact better with the rest of the spec. I love the spell but it feels doomed at the moment considering how it fails to synergize with–or actively works against–the majority of the tree.

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I’d like to comment a bit further on [Fractured Frost]. Like mentioned before by myself and many others, it isn’t a good talent. Its good compared to [Deathborne] is that it isn’t tied to a cooldown and can happen anytime, but then it has a 50% chance to happen which makes us want to fish for procs in heavy AoE by spamming our filler, which just doesn’t feel good.

I think a good compromise to this playstyle would be to have [Frostbolt Volley] as a new spell in its place with a moderate 10~15s cooldown that hits more targets than just 3, so maybe 5~8 targets to be in line with other AoE capped spells.

[Cold Frost]'s requirement could be adjusted from 30x [Frostbolts] with that change in mind and I think that would maybe make these two talents more attractive because as they are, I don’t feel much incentive to pick either of them in any situation.

I am seeing a lot of comments regarding the Fractured Frost and Cold Front talents in this post and wanted to add something.

The reason the current version of Fractured Frost, the Necrolord ability Deathborne, is desirable is that it is supplemented by the Death’s Fathom legendary as well as having a base 15% spell damage increase during Deathborne, ramping the mage’s damage during this cooldown. This aspect of Fractured Frost is not in Dragonflight and severely diminishes the value of the talent.

I know Cold Front doesn’t currently work this way on live, but a Cold Front cast Frozen Orb having no interaction with Freezing Rain, a potential prerequisite talent for Cold Front, feels really bad. The only way to get to Cold Front without taking Freezing Rain is through Comet Storm.

Edit:

I’d like to add that with Deathborne being a cooldown, you have more control over Cold Front as your Frostbolts will always hit up to 3 targets during this window, rather than Fractured Frost, which is always just a chance to proc.

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I really like the idea of bringing Deathborne back as a class tree cooldown with a frosty makeover (using the old Ice Form animation but otherwise same effect as current Deathborne) ala my early class talent tree mockup earlier in the thread. It’s something that would look cool and bring a benefit that more than just Frost Mages might appreciate.

Having the class tree follow a similar spec based format like other class trees (where talents themed in a specific spec are generally in the same part of the tree), and putting “Frostborne” in place of Shifting Power, and moving SF over to the “Fire” side of the tree (along with an upgrade talent to give it legendary benefits that make it actually usable) is much more appealing to me, but obviously it’s not all about what only I want.

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After testing a little bit more, I’d like to make a few suggestions.

Fire:

Would like to see the tempered flames talent and the pyroclasm talent merged into one and placed as a cap stone. It just feels like they really do go together. Plus it feels awkward to how fireball and pyroblast work together. A lot of players are just ignoring fireball all together. I think the reduced pyroblast cast should only happen when pyroclasm procs. Fireball ofcourse would need a buff.
As for a replacement for tempered flames, maybe a fireball buff or bring back frostfire bolt with increased damage.

Arcane:

All of my builds always end up with me choosing presence of mind. That spell needs to be able to be used on other spells like the kyrian spell and arcane surge. The whole buildup of arcane surge, kyrian spell, and touch of magi before giving off 3 arc blasts and an arcane harmony arc barrage feels too long of a buildup. If you are not fast enough, you will miss the cut off. I heard that the kyrian spell is not stacking with arcane surge. Not sure if this is true or not.
It feels like there is way too many mandatory arcane spells that I can’t really go and play with talents like arcane familiar/rule of three. So far, I can get by without mana gems and evocation as long as I use Enlightened. But if there is a nerf to mana regen, that build will be crushed.

Frost:
glacial spike takes way too long to cast and is not showing any real dps addition. I get more dps by ignoring it and choosing other talents. Frost is another one of those specs where it feels like there is too many mandatory talents.
I do have one question. Does the water pets main attack chill targets? If it does, that would make the talent that increases your damage when you attempt to chill work better. Because right now, you get a lot of fingers of frost and brain freeze where you are just ice lace spamming. So, the bone chill talent drops off frequently.

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I’d rather have the venythr spell mirrors of torment. Deathborn was only good when you got the unity part to go with it. Now if they combine deathborn with the unity part, I will definitely agree with you on bring it back.

As for mage class tree, can we get triune ward instead of normal invisibility. A stronger shield would be better for soloing then a get away spell. Plus, we still have access to greater invisibility.

Only a suggestion. I know shield strength is controversial when mages have strong burst.

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