I think it would be alot cooler if you guys let Death Chakram be a choice node with explosive shot. It felt real saucy to throw that boy in a pack and chew them up with cleave. Be alot better instead of just ripping it from hunter I think.
3 Likes
Value of death chakram definitely varied from spec to spec imo.
Honestly its main selling point was that the spell effect looked genuinely cool, and that seems to be rare for hunter abilities atm.
It gave BM a cool looking button on a spec that has too few interesting buttons & even fewer buttons that feel fun/good… Dire Beast should be good, but doesn’t feel good. Explosive Shot feels like you’ve stolen a Marks/SV ability. And they don’t have much else to press outside ‘maintain Barbed, press Bestial Wrath, spam Kill Command’.
Therefore I’m going to genuinely miss Death Chakram on BM.
For marks… eh… there’s a bit more meat to the aimed/rapid/precise-shots/steady ability weaving so they don’t suffer from BM’s one dimensional gameplay. Explosive Shot felt more appropriate & Chakram felt like it was just competing for Explosive’s space in the rotation.
Survival seems like it’s got plenty going on without messing around with Chakram, but I could see some people liking Chakram regardless. Explosive seems much more appropriate to the bombardier side of SV.
All things considered I don’t see the down side in Death Chakram & Explosive Shot being a choice node.
Which ability feels better varies from spec to spec & person to person. Rotationally they have similar timing + target count, and so should be straightforward to balance.
3 Likes
Gonna throw in my 2 cents after some of the raid and m+ testing that I’ve done with all three specs. Not going to really get into the details of everything, just my general thoughts.
SV
Love the rework so far. I have never been a fan of SV since the Legion rework, and often the various live versions have felt convoluted or obtuse to understand how to properly do damage. The new direction simplifies things which helps, and the focus on bombs and explosive shot procs is fun. Still getting used to it, but the Tip gameplay seems fine, though I agree with the post earlier this week about reverting the changes made with Flanking Strike, and that they still need to work on the Mongoose Bite stuff. Otherwise, solid rework 90% of the way there just needs a little polish.
MM
Feels like the spec that has changed the least as far as gameplay from DF to now, though I think that is a good thing. The talent changes made just improve on what it has always done well. The new node that modifies Barrage is fun, love that. After a full xpac of playing almost nothing but BM, it felt just like remembering how to ride a bike picking MM up, with some interesting new wrinkles like Readiness. Probably the closest of the three to being go-live ready.
BM
I’m going to preface my comments here by saying that maybe some of the issues I have with the spec are due to Pack Leader not working and feeling obligated to play Dark Ranger to have a fully functional character for testing. I don’t know how they managed but the spec feels bloated. With the addition of the Dire Beast button becoming a must-pick talent because of Huntmaster’s Call right below it, the opener for BM just seems like you’re pressing too many things before you actually start doing any damage, in both AoE and ST. Explosive shot feels like it has no place for BM, with it not interacting (almost) at all with the kit unless you take Explosive Venom, and not benefiting at all from BMs mastery. And there are still some egregious talent choices that exist (looking at you Kindred Spirits) that make pathing in the tree pretty awkward to say the least. Would love to see some of those items addressed. Spec needs some more attention, and please fix Pack Leader (or rework it entirely).
8 Likes
Honestly really loving the new survival hunter combat playstyle. The only thing i want to ask for in tww is that hunters get at least 1 really cool looking tier set. Just one that doesn’t look like we made our outfit out of our last pet.
1 Like
Also really liking the design of Survival Hunter however I wish hunter class tree or survival tree had a passive haste buff node or something giving you a bit of haste because right now it feels so goddam slow. Non 1 second GCD melee classes just feel so horrible in first tier haste levels. Even 5% from tree or ability goes a long way
Just gonna re-dump my consolidated thoughts on primarily the hunter class tree and Surv/BM changes in hopes of any part of it being incorporated into this week’s build:
My primary concerns with the class are the bloated class tree with PvP talents (Easily adjustable to be PvE viable) and our raid buff is underwhelming. Survival still has some GCD Bloat to work out as well.
Defensives & Externals:
Hunters now have a strong selection of CDs to ensure their survivability in their core toolkit. I’m very happy with the reworked trees from a defensive perspective though there are a few things that can be changed to round out the hunter kit:
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Defensives in general should be off the GCD, especially exhilaration.
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Ghillie suit is janky to play around. This node should also allow us to camouflage in combat - mages already have this with their invisibility.
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BM’s Sprit Mend needs a buff for rot damage and self-sustain.
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Aspect of the Beast should be moved to the class tree so all specs can take advantage of this additional survivability, albeit not so much MM if they choose to continue to run Lone Wolf.
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Revise Roar of Sacrifice to protect a target from all damage types, not just critical strikes, to become a 10% DR for a party member. Alternatively, move this talent into the PvP talent section, our class tree is bloated with PvP talents that bring no value in PvE.
Class Utility:
With the introduction of Implosion Trap, which I suggested, we finally have a solid AoE kick as every other class had, though the cooldown is a little long. The primary remaining issue is our raid buff which desperately needs a buff and to be able to bring something to M+ groups; I suggest our pet provide the group stats like an external raid buff in the pet utility section.
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Binding shot needs to be played around to get any usage and most tanks tend to not realize that it is even down to take advantage of the stun. Perhaps a larger visual could help here. Its SL root functionality worked well when necrotic/kite meta existed but I don’t see it being as strong now. Functionality similar to Spear of Bastion/Sigial of Chains as a CC is ideal.
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Intimidation - I’m okay with either the strong 5s single stun or the 3-target stun with Territorial Instincts due to the introduction of Imploding Trap serving as Hunter’s AoE kick (Imploding Trap’s CD needs to be shortened to 1 minute). Territorial Instincts with this week’s 5s stun is a very week talent that doesn’t seem to be worth taking.
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Bursting Shot - The knockback on this spell is a bit too strong and it’s a melee range spell despite the name implying a shot or arrow.
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Hunter’s Mark should increase damage for the first and last 20% by 5% to compete with what other classes bring to the table. In its current state, an additional 1% overall is very weak compared to any other class buff. Hunters are known for their Kill Shot execute, the current execution of Hunter’s Mark as a Raid buff contradicts this. This is further doubled down by Unnatural Causes being added to the class tree.
- Perhaps Hunter’s Mark becomes an AoE 20 yard or larger radius as there’s nothing more awkward than trying to tab target to the priority mob in M+ that’s in the middle/back of a pack. Then as Surv, tab target back to a mob in front of you for bombs.
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Regarding raid buffs, Survival is still fighting for a raid spot with other melees due to a lack of utility/externals - anything to justify a spot in the highly competitive melee pool. Something simple like “nearby allies +3yd range to all melee abilities” works. It can make it dramatically easier to conserve space in melee if the playable area is suddenly 3 yds bigger on each side. If every spec is losing +3 yds, this is the perfect way to add it back. (See Pet Utility section)
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Scare Beast has no usage currently and is devalued further due to its cast time and focus usage. This node needs to be removed or replaced with something similar to Priest/DK’s ability to temporarily control a beast.
Pets Utility
With pets being a core aspect of Hunters, I’m hoping to squeeze in some new M+ group synergy and a reason to be brought to M+ groups - see the last point, assuming an AoE Hunter’s Mark isn’t an option for some reason.
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Provide more pet flexibility - let us set any pet as ferocity/cunning/tenacity in the stable.
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Allow hunters to lust as a baseline talent. Currently, MM hunters are dropping their Lone Wolf buff to lust and BM/Survival is giving up Fort of the Bear (+ Spirit Mend for BM) to lust. Every other lust class gives up nothing to press lust.
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Alternatively, if hunters are stuck depending on a pet for utility, return the ability of pets being able to Battle Resurrect by assigning it to Tenacity/Cunning pets.
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To better have Hunters synergize with M+ groups, allow them to provide a group buff depending on the type of pet that they have out -
- Ferocity provides the group with 3% crit, haste, and leech.
- Tenacity provides the group with 3% vers and max HP increased.
- Cunning provides the group with 4% speed, avoidance, and some mastery. (Maybe increased max attack range or attack speed?)
This provides a reason to bring more than one hunter but doesn’t make it mandatory to stack them, similar to DKs or Warrior’s externals which are nice for raids.
General Class Tree Feedback & Suggestions:
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Aspect of the Turtle needs to solidify the type of defensive that it is - most of the time it functions as an immunity and occasionally it only acts as a 30% DR depending on mechanics.
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Tranq shot is on the GCD still which feels terrible to press.
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There is an excessive amount of pure PvP talents in our tree that can be made viable in PvE. Roar of Sacrifice can be very easily changed to a general 10% external and Ghillie suit should allow us to Camouflage in combat.
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Binding Shackles - should include Implosive Trap and apply the 10% DR for everyone.
Survival Feedback & Suggestions:
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Raptor Strike and Serpent Sting should be made baseline to the spec. Being a melee spec but not getting a melee ability (RS) till level 13 is odd.
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Bloody Claws is really unnecessary/undertuned with all the extra kill command reset talents available in the tree. Perhaps this talent could also increase pet or mongoose fury damage.
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Mongoose Bite (MB) and Raptor Strike(RS) - We’re investing a talent point to receive an “upgraded” version of a base spell that does similar damage to every other damage spell as all of our abilities are influenced by our mastery - this includes bombs, KC, FS, ES, SH, and CA.
The Mongoose Fury window is clunky in its current 5-stack iteration. RS and MB need a 25-35% buff to still be relent in ST and they would end up being 20-25% of our ST damage overall. Additionally, each use of MB in the MF window should increase the MF window by ~1s.
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I’m not the biggest fan of how Merciless Blows (BM/RS hits 3 targets) works and the talent in general. This talent is trying to shoehorn a ST button (RS/MB) into the AoE rotation instead of MB/RS being a filler button. It adds clunkiness (GCD Bloat) to the rotation. If it remains as is, it should give us 1 stack of Mongoose Fury per target hit.
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Fury of the Eagle - our AoE rotation has so much GCD Bloat (Not to be confused by button bloat) that we can’t really spare a 3s channel for it, leaving this node path unviable.
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Furthermore, Ruthless Marader has very little value for the 2nd point invested (35% → 50%). Either make this a 1-point node that provides benefits when the target is below 50% health, or bake in Ruthless Marader’s effect to FoTE and replace the node with the DF S3 effect.
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Lunge is the only talent providing a direct benefit for increased attack speed granted from Trigger Finger (Class tree). Perhaps Lunge (this talent really needs to be renamed) is placed lower in the tree rather than gatekeeping the left side of the tree.
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The mastery changed to increase pet/our damage and provide additional survivability through DR seems very fitting. As noted above, RS/MB need a 25-35% damage increase as they are no longer the only spell buffed by our mastery. BUG: the damage portion that isn’t being doubled.
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GCD Bloat - It feels like Bombardier is contributing towards the spec’s GCD Bloat, specifically the Explosive Shots at the end of CA.
- In case any talent inspiration is still needed:
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Energized Ally - Damaging a new enemy grants you 3% haste for 10s, up to 5 stacks.
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Frenzy Strikes - Butchery/Carve increases the damage of your next Wildfire Bomb by x% for each target hit, up to 5, stacking up to 15 times. n
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Hellcarver - [Butchery / Carve] deals 3% increased damage for each additional target hit.
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Energized Wrath - Uncaps Mongoose Fury stacks for Xs.
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Wildfire Cluster - Wildfire Bomb drops an additional cluster of bombs around the target, each exploding for (33% of Attack power) Fire damage.
BM Suggestions & Feedback:
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AoE being locked behind 3 talent points instead of 4 is a welcome change but it still doesn’t feel great to need to invest these points to unlock our base kit. It doesn’t help that Multi Shot hits like a wet noodle - make Multi Shot baseline.
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The problem with the hybrid AoE options (Barrage, Bloody Frenzy) is that while they activate Beast Cleave, you are missing out on Kill Cleave if it is not talented, which is responsible for a significant amount of AoE.
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A Murder of Crows passive likely would have worked better in the Dark Ranger tree. This proc can be wasted if it goes off on a target that dies shortly after - it should allow A Murder of Crow to proc on the next target if it dies while the DoT is active.
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I’m surprised that Barrage was made into a AoE burst talent which may be useful in situations where you don’t need to commit to full AoE for a raid encounter. I still think this should share a choice node with Flayed Shot to also provide a ST option.
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Kindred Spirits is not a good talent - at no point do we need our maximum focus to be increased as it is constantly being spent between Cobra Shot and Kill Command. To add insult to injury, the talent is a 2-point node that only increases our focus by 10 each level - making this a very weak talent.
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Cobra Senses (Reduces KC by 1s per CS) and Killer Cobra (CS rests KC during BW) both essentially accomplish the same thing and Killer Cobra pretty much invalidates Cobra Sense’s value with how often BW is active (~33% of the time)
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Dire Beast being a focus generator on a 20s CD is a really welcome change for it being such a minor cooldown.
- Here is a list of bugs per the Hunter class discord:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SyyJ9FJ-kU5LMMTsaXIesOUE4dY8cDiTkAVc-s0qw9M/edit?gid=0#gid=0
16 Likes
I love all your pet ideas, except for Spirit Mend lol. We do not need to be going back to pre BFA 30 sec 2nd exhilaration that is off our GCD lol. It’s currently like a 7% max life heal and a good layer for dispells.
It does feel very dumb to have very hardline pets, from appearance to spec to skills. I think I speak for all hunters when we just want that slimey new lil tadpole chasing after people with mortal strike, endurance, and fort of the bear.
It’s also a great idea to have it able to introduce some pet based like x0.5 buffs to give us some raid utility, the only thing I worry about is that making it very likely to lock in 2 unique buffs with survival hunters if its family based and Aspect of the Beast or BM dominance.
To point out some iffy things; our bursting shot is actually really bad. Next to no range, and it’s literally just a worse Kul’Tiran racial or extra worse cone “blast wave” from mages thats a full radius. Tranq, CDs, and Heals on the GCD are just state of the game things for the most part. Walls and Immunity defensives are not. A 50% max life heal on exhiliaration off the GCD would be insane. I think it’s more than just PvP, but having weight to dispelling random mob buff 200 whenever it is up.
2 Likes
My Quick notes.
- Loved the extra mobility in the leaps and charges
- Disliked their uncontrollability and how they got you into objects
- Liked the simplified Mongoose bite but think it should be an option node for old play
Spamming one button for me and fretting about it not being enough spam that I have to UI adapt is not my kind of fun. Personally, 3 stacks based on proc’ed reaction to rotation would be interesting. So like KC comes off CD and when it does hitting MB for a bonus opportunity effect could be fun.
- Don’t like that pet synergies did not show up in talents ie. BM has Multi Exotic pets’ MM can have no pets, SV has… ? SV needs pet flavor. Also Kill command, Flanking Strike, and Co Assault need pronounced pet-synced visuals to seem meaningful.
- Like the more in-and-out gameplay that is being added with SV but the leaps and charges (after the uncontrollability is fixed) would be more fun for me with SV having a shorter Disengage CD with lesser range as a offset?
- I cannot put my finger on it but… Explosive shot confused me now as to when to use it and why? Somehow in retail, it felt clearer. Maybe the new options are interfering a bit?
- Flanking Strike and Kill Comand do sort of “compete” in a way as others have noted. Having Flanking strike ACTUALLY flank, as in you jump to the position of your pet behind the mob when your pet is not tanking would be something to consider as well as if it should be a spender or like a focus regen enhancement.
- The feel of how solid a SV hunter is much better with the new defensiveness
- Fine with Death Chakram being gone
I think you’re 100% overthinking it. You use it when it’s available
3 Likes
Quick Shot eats the cd though, what if I want to see two flashes instead of just one?
applying an explosive shot to a target with an explosive shot ticking down will cause the former to detonate early poggies
Maybe not another Exhil, but Spirit mend already does very little and with the increased health pools, I imagine that falling even shorter. Maybe a 1/3rd of an Exhil so it’s something. Ideally Blizzard makes it so pet classes can leech through their pets but I doubt that will happen in the foreseeable future.
I’ll also admit that aspect of the beast in the class tree also feels like a strech but figured I’d keep that one in there in the slim chance it happens. It would probably be a solid capstone. It’s basically just an extra 3% HP for BM currently and that’s not going to help them with rot damage. Assuming dps numbers are similar for hero trees, I imagine competative BM’s are going to ignore Pack Leader’s Den recovery which sort of solves the rot issue in favor of a powerful defensive (~45s SoTF on Exhil use), Smoke Screen from Dark Ranger which leaves BM back to square 1, which I again think can be slight remidied by buffing sprit mend slightly.
1 Like
Pretty sure that’s a bug. The proc from SLP shouldn’t be putting ES on CD.
Very apt and well put out post. I agree with pretty much everything you have to say.
Survival hunter is in a much better state than it’s been since forever, I personally think. But there for sure are things that I’d prefer differently or changed.
Also, please implement dual-wield for SV hunters!
2 Likes
Idk why this has been suggested multiple times, but it doesn’t make any sense, and you can forget about it changing. Every single purge or soothe effect in the game requires a GCD to use. It is clearly intentional design that using a dispel/soothe is supposed to be a decision you make that competes with a damage GCD, and that’s entirely fine.
There is nothing about hunters or Tranq Shot that warrant it being the only button of its type off of the GCD.
4 Likes
Back in my day, you only used tranq shot on core hounds. ducks
No but seriously, I think it needs to be on GCD.
Lucky for you friend it already is.
3 Likes
Hunter Class Tree Feedback.
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Scout’s Instincts (cannot be slowed below 80%) - this feels terrible as a talent. Cheetah is a 3 min cd it should already have this baked into it.
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Blackrock Munitions- Why are we getting ANOTHER dmg modifier to Explosive shot? we already have one in the MM talent tree. As a pvper i do not like so much of our dmg put into explosive shot when it can be dispelled. If you want to make explosive shot this powerful make it non Dispellable.
High Explosive Trap / Implosion trap - Feels like such a let down for a Capstone Talent node. Implosion trap cd should be 45 seconds that same as explosive trap. they both are used for the same purpose to disrupt.
Dark Ranger Feedback:
Visually black arrow needs an update it feels lack luster and not very Heroish. Dark ranger doesnt feel to add any interesting gameplay to my rotation which is sad. Currently feels like MM gets over capped with aim shots now with everything resetting aim shot. Would rather if give us procs for instant cast dmg of some kind to press.
The little hounds that spawn feel pointless and lame. is this 20 years ago in tristfal glades starting zone???
Can we please get some dark ranger abilities or passives that interact with our rotation and game play???
Marksman talent tree:
Focused aim should be 1 talent point not 2
Legacy of the windrunners should be 1 talent point not 2
if you make this change then we could make more interesting builds. As of right now if feels like you cant have all your aoe talents or all your single target talents at once.
16 Likes
That’s a fair and valid point. I mostly bummed that one off of the initial pre-rework hunter feedback which made more sense at the time. Seems like the multi-magic dispel/purge will be solid for Grim Tol and City of Threads and likely some other dungeons I haven’t tested yet.
I think the rest of my post generally holds true but feel free to nitpick further. I appreciate the discussion.
Hunters are somewhat uniquely a class very GCD hard locked, so that conflict is most severe for hunters compared to other classes.
2 Likes