Feedback: Hunters

Everything in the tree is also a pvp talent? It’s not an exclusive PvE talent. PvPers do have an exclusive talent selection. People are concerned because ignoring LoS is immensely powerful in a lot of pvp situations compared to not very many PvE situations.

13 Likes

The real reason people are suggesting it be made a PvP talent is because:

  1. PvE hunters have been asking for some group/raid utility/buff to incentivize bringing a hunter even if hunter isn’t a top-tier DPS.
  2. This talent is being interpreted as Blizzard’s response to those comments, especially because of the leech/avoidance part of it.
  3. The LoS effect is cool, but super niche PvE, and it’ll still probably take up some of the ability’s power budget. So, people are just worried we’ll end up with a “1-2 min CD on the GCD, give your party 10% leech and 10% avoidance for 10 sec” button for two talent points, which is not what they were hoping for.

They’re trying to compromise by saying “We don’t care about the LoS effect, but we can see it’s cool in PvP, so just give that to PvP’ers as a PvP talent”, but like you said, PvP talents are limited. What they’re really trying to say, I think, is that they don’t want this to be our group/raid utility button as described. Nobody would mind if this stayed in the class tree if we got something else in addition to this, or if the avoidance/leech talent was scrapped for something else.

19 Likes

The issue I think is that pvp talents are still kinda designed with the old talent system in mind.

In the long run they should give each class a pvp talent tree with choice nodes and defensive/offensive bonuses etc like the class and spec tree. Maybe that is for next expansion once the new talents have shaken out for awhile.

2 Likes

The positioning of talents in the MM tree looks a bit better, but really hope the team continues to iterate on it:

  1. Killing Blow (Kill Shot crit chance) being the only path to Hunter’s Knowledge (Aimed Shot & Rapid Fire crit chance) makes no sense. A swap with Lone Wolf would be very helpful, and then Killing Blow flows right into Deathblow & Razor Fragments, both of which interact with Kill Shot.

  2. You had mentioned that if Bombardment was going to continue to be a 2-point node, it would also buff the damage of Multi-Shot. Is this still planned or is the node going to be changed to a single point. As it stands, it does not do enough to warrant being a 2-point node.

Regarding the class tree…

  1. Sentinel not having a CD, and its duration being tied to the amount of Focus you spent is really interesting.
  2. Sentinel’s Wisdom seems lackluster. It might be strong in dungeons and PvP, but is practically worthless in raids. I really hope we receive another form of utility.
  3. Hunter’s Agility now provides dodge chance instead of avoidance. Is this an out of season April Fools’ joke? Avoidance is not the best defensive stat, sure, but dodge is completely useless. If the intent is that this is strong in PvP, PvP talents exist (although I’m sure this would still not even be worth taking).
15 Likes

Some initial thoughts after looking at the updated tree a bit this afternoon:

Generic Hunter Tree

  • You can talent into Improved Tranq Shot without taking Tranq Shot

  • The budget is very tight now with SotF (and its choice nodes) as well as Sentinel Owl (and its choice nodes). Feels like we might have to almost always ignore the cool Sentinel Owl so we can afford rotational/damage talents

  • The Avoidance → Dodge change seems a bit odd. Any shot this can be combined with Agile Movement to help with the new budget problems?

  • Improved Traps is a really bummer talent node that deep into the tree. I don’t know many people that are excited about it, especially as a 2 point talent. Perhaps this could be reworked/replaced with something else entirely?

  • Binding Shackles feels more akin to a PvP talent and, much like Improved Traps, not very exciting to take at all that far down in the tree, especially being linked to Beast Master/Keen Eyesight. As a Survival Hunter I feel a bit “forced” to take Tranq Shot/Improved Tranq Shot or Binding Shackles to get access to Beast Master (with the goal of Alpha Predator). This feels a bit claustrophobic in this part of the tree

  • Bouncing off the last point, Improved Kill Command and Beast Master feel a bit redundant or perhaps stuffy with both being 2 point nodes and both having very similar effects. Any chance these can be combined or one brought down to a 1-point node?


Survival Hunter Tree

  • Viper’s Venom is a bit odd at a 2-point node. As stated earlier, 30% is a bit too high as 15% may already provide a significant portion of your SS uptime, so the second point bringing it up to 30% feels wasted especially as haste increases. Can this please be brought down to 1 much like Serpentstalker’s?

  • Spear Focus and Sweeping Spear feel very similar, especially because Sweeping Spear is just Spear Focus but better in every way. Spear Focus is a bit dull to talent into just to get access to Bloody Claws (a new talent) with current tuning. Any chance Spear Focus could be retooled / reworked?

  • Bouncing off the last note, Flanking Strike itself is a little similar to Kill Command, except it is missing a lot of the talent interactions that buff Kill Command, causing Flanking strike to be a fairly plain 30-second cooldown ability, at least for Single Target. It can be much more impactful rotationally with some kind of additional synergy, perhaps building off of the Mongoose Bite node. Since Spear Focus is a bit redundant with Sweeping Spear—perhaps Spear Focus could be retooled into a single-target version of Frenzy Strikes just for Flanking Strike? This would solve the redundancy and give Flanking Strike a cool usage loop in single-target. What does everyone else think?

  • Similar train of thought, the 8-20 point portion of the tree seems a bit too full compared to other areas. Particularly talents like Lunge or Bloody Claws can be hard to justify with other more impactful talents in this area. Lunge can be hard to justify as it doesn’t lead into anything impactful on its own. Much like the suggestion earlier, Spear Focus and Lunge (or Sharp Edges and Lunge) could be combined, for example, to free up both concerns.

  • With the emphasis on Flanker’s Advantage (Kill Command resets) in our Dragonflight Tree and the synergy it provides, many Survival Hunters are concerned that with access to Pheromone Bomb the gameplay loop could swiftly become oppressive when you only focus (pun intended) on the 100% reset chance that Wildfire Infusion offers and that this could remove exciting gameplay by just slamming KC to get what you need, whether it be FotE resets, Quick Shot procs, Spearhead extensions, etc. Any thoughts on avoiding this oppressive (some say mindless KC spamming) gameplay loop?


In summary, myself and others are very grateful to have such an exciting tree and extremely appreciative of the communication and response to feedback so far. There are only a few points of concern left and it’s looking like the Survival Tree is in an incredibly nice spot and many are very optimistic/excited to see where things go.

6 Likes

Sentinel’s Wisdom is very likely being redesigned.
Hunter’s Agility changing from Avoidance to Dodge was mostly so there wasn’t a doubled-up Avoidance node on the tree.

6 Likes

If Sentinel’s Wisdom is being redesigned, we would gladly take the Avoidance on Hunter’s Agility back instead of Dodge. Dodge has a marginal benefit in PvP, but other than that the only thing it does is help us dodge dungeon/raid invites.

33 Likes

Steel Trap
Nesingwary’s Trap apparatus
Hydra’s Bite
Latent Poison Injectors
Death Chakrams (still classified as a Necrolord covenant ability and blocked)
Salvo
Deathblow
Razor Fragments
Serpentstalker’s trickery

These talents aren’t working as of the latest build

In addition, taking Survival of the Fittest puts a weird blue orb around your character

This looks to be only when you take the choice node attached to SotF. Otherwise, no blue orb.

To a degree, it might be better for them to one day just integrate PvP talents that get widespread use into the main talent trees, but cost “PvP Talent Points” - and give players a set amount of PvP talent points they can choose to place in those PvP talents, or, if they so choose, somewhere else in the tree in the PvE talents - but anything chosen with PvP talents will be only active in PvP settings like now.

They could just make a third PVP talent tree for each class/spec, and have it reset each pvp season. Add another progression track and give out a few talent points a week for doing pvp weekly quests etc.

Then they can use all the old pvp talents along with some kinda other passive offensive or defensive bonus like healing reduction or vers or movement speed.

1 Like

Losing out on 10% avoidance is still fairly painful for passive DR, considering that we’re also not getting passive hp/dr unlike a lot of other classes.
IE :
Warriors - 10% stam + armor
Warlocks - Absorb / Flat DR + Stam
DK - Stam
Druid - DR
Evoker - Healing taken / Stam/ Magic DR
Mage - Magic DR
Paladin - Armor / Avoidance
Rogue - Phys DR / Vers
Shaman - Avoidance / Magic DR

11 Likes

Marksman Feedback
The capstone talent for Legacy of the Windrunners, Windrunners Guidance, feels horrible to spec into especially the second point.

Being this far down the tree, the second point in this talent feels much more expensive than the first and having only 1 of 2 points selected in your final talent build makes the talent not feel like a true capstone.

14 Likes

So after looking at more and more of ther spec/class trees and looking back at BM :
While I think that the tree in functional and does work, I also feel like there’s a bit too much commitment in terms of points to get back to what we already have as is.

So while some of the other classes are getting a lot of “shiny” we’re very limited in that.
One of the examples is how many points we need to spend to currently get back to current Bestial Wrath functionality :

If we look at the tree overall using a build that’s mostly trying to maintain the current playstyle (and realistically I assume will be the current meta at least in terms of design/utility) :

We can see that we’re getting 3 new abilities (2 of them are passive, and 1 is only AoE)
We’re missing out on 1 current existing baseline abilities (wild call), in large part due to spending 10 of 30 points only to try and get baseline non talents abilities, which are ± required for spec to function.

As an example - Barbed wrath is one of the main mechanics of the spec, but it’s a 2 talent point at the bottom of the tree. Same with the Wild Call to some extend, since without it :

  1. the spec is 100% deterministic and you would be going back to being able to have a timed macro performing entire rotation
  2. Having haste plateaue / spikes where you would be getting guaranteed ability to maintain 3 stacks Frenzy/Thrill and sync of ur BW cooldown with mechanics / cooldowns.
  3. Also drastically hurts our crit scaling, which has been historically favored stat.

Overall, I don’t want to calculate how many total nodes we have / how many 2-3 point talent choices we have, since those are mostly meaningless metrics, a lot of current passives could be baked into the baseline version of their abilities, freeing up room for new nodes on our tree and it would feel great with the same number of nodes.

That being said, some of the “merges” that I would prefer to see :

  1. Kindred and Pack, both thematically are similar.
  2. Wild call and barbed shot. It feels like too much of a hook to completely ignore.
  3. Barbed Wrath and Bestial Wrath. It’s another thing that feels crucial for BM identity and would probably be too much of a trap to play without it.

This would free up 3 talent node spots on the tree and some points that would actually let us play with a few more new abilities.

On the topic of Barbed Wrath, I think it currently working on AotW (but not Call of the Wild) is a bit problematic as it’s once again leading us to new desync issues.

And I still believe that those cooldowns should be merged in, currently we have too many CDs :

  1. Aspect of the Wild
  2. Call of the Wild
  3. Bloodshed / Murder of Crows
  4. Stampede
  5. Bestial Wrath

(I’m going to assume that we are not running steel trap / Explosive shot / Dire Beast / Wailing Arrow, but theoretically we could be running 2-3 of those in addition to current ones)

While BW is not a true CD, for the purpose of “burst”, i’d still categorize it as such, and in situations like say Sludgefist charge, I don’t want to be spending ± 5 globals only buffing myself for the damage purposes.

Due to this I’d suggest that it gets changed into a passive that simply upgrades AotW.
I also think it would be interesting to have it as a choice node between being a passive ability that modifies aotw and having a CDR ability (Similar to current Ferocious appetite conduit at say 3.5-4 sec strength) where you can pick between stronger 2 more, or more frequent 1 min one.

21 Likes

Now from my personal PoV the bottom left side of the tree is ± DoA (outside of ridiculous tuning) as it is.

So I’d like to suggest a few things :

  1. Combine Dire Command + Dire Pack
    They are both working around Kill Command + Dire Beasts but as it stands right now, it feels fairly underwhelming

  2. Keep Pack Resilience but also add that every 4/2 Barbed Shots are guaranteed to summon a dire beast (± numbers for tuning, so it’s not too frequent, but you have a way to force out a 2nd dire beast in addition to the talent version)

  3. Now that we’ve re-organized those 3 talents into 2 (I can also see alternative, where the current pack resilience gets merged with dire pack, and Dire Command gets the barbed shot synergy) we have a room for a new Capstone → Titan’s Thunder . Functioning same as it did in legion and working with your dire beasts + your main pets.

  4. This is a bit unconnected to the previous 3 points, but I feel like Wailing Arrow is a very weird choice for BM capstone. It feels like either MM talent or general Hunter Tree bottom capstone, especially since it doesn’t interact in any way with class identity of pets, and doesn’t even work with our mastery.
    As such I’d like to see it get updated with something closer to BM fantasy, the 2 easiest choices are Dire Beast: Hawk / Dire Beast: Basilisk (which also work out great as a choice talent)

This would give us the following talent flows :
Bottom left size - Zoo, similar to BM from Legion with multiple pets out, and giving you an ability to front load your burst at the cost of dropping frenzy later.

Center side - Around same as current playstyle, you focus on keeping frenzy at 3 stacks to never dip as low and still having BW on non 90 sec cd.

Left side - a lot more reactive procs with cooldown reductions/resets.

11 Likes

Now looking at survival, I’d say that majority of new tree actually looks cool

Looking at some lower in the tree talents one that stands out to me is :

I think the idea is great. However, if the shot is purely passive, it’s kind of a bit boring.
It might as well a flat ap% increase on kill command / next kill command after reset.

I would prefer it to become just a tiny bit more reactive :
When KC’s cooldown is reset, you have a % chance to get a Quick Shot buff, stacking up to 2-3(?) stacks.
Quick Shot buff lets you fire Arcane Shot without having a ranged weapon equipped, dealing % bonus damage with a reduced focus cost.

This gives us a reactive buff that lets us thematically do the same thing, but without it being passively consumed by normal rotation (unlike say Tip of the Spear)

5 Likes

To elaborate for anyone confused—

Spear Focus is a 2 point node that increase Mongoose Bite damage by 5/10%

Sweeping Spear is a 2 point node that increases Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite and Carve/Butchery damage by 5/10%.

It feels like Spear Focus should be differentiated a bit, even if it’s just a numerical buff, to make it a more exciting choice. After looking at the tree/using it more, I think while I would personally prefer a Flanking Strike interaction, that would be a bit odd due to the position of the talent.

What does everyone else feel w/r/t Spear Focus/Sweeping Spear?

4 Likes

Hello again Hunters,

This won’t be a specific list of everything that has changed, but some notes on changes coming to the next build.

Class Tree:

  • Some minor changes have been made to some node connections.
  • Lone Survivor’s cooldown reduction has been lowered from 60 to 30 seconds.
  • Death Chakram should work in non-Shadowlands zones, and should increase all damage taken rather than just Physical damage taken
  • Master Marksman should work with melee abilities as well.

Marksmanship

  • Lots of bug fixes.
  • Legacy of the Windrunners has changed into a 2-point node again, each point will add 3 wind arrows. Also any buffs to Aimed Shot now applies to these Wind Arrows.
    • To clarify the point about Legacy of the Windrunners gaining bonuses from Aimed Shot, this is any buffs to crit chance or damage to Aimed Shot. Trick Shots will not be sending Wind Arrows all over the place.
  • New talent in the bottom left area: Bulletstorm. Extra targets your Aimed Shot or Rapid Fires ricochet to from Trick Shots grants a stacking buff to your Multi-Shot damage.
  • Bombardment has changed to a 1 point node and is located right below Multi-Shot
    • There has been some discussion about how Bombardment should work, or perhaps that it should just work like the current 4-piece set bonus with alternate numbers. Tracking resources spent is difficult in the default UI, and most people feel it is necessary to get an addon to track how much more Focus they have to spend to get a Trick Shots effect.
    • With the current design of X Arcane/Chimaera shots required as opposed to Focus Spent, why require a Multi-Shot instead of just granting Trick Shots? Most of the purpose of this talent is to provide some limited options for Trick Shots when you don’t have 3+ targets to consistently gain Trick Shots. If the fight has one target most of the time, and occasionally some adds spawn, getting a buff that guarantees your next Multi-Shot to grant you a Trick Shots regardless of targets hit should grant you increased control over when you want to use the effect. The Bombardment buff currently lasts 2 minutes, so there is no rush to try to jam in some extra shots right as some adds spawn, you have time to prepare and use this.
  • Calling the Shots has had its design adjusted to grant cooldown reduction for Trueshot from Focus Spent, rather than require specific shots.

Beast Mastery and Survival have also had some bug fixes, but no notable design changes this week. That doesn’t mean things are final.

edit: To clarify the point about Legacy of the Windrunners gaining bonuses from Aimed Shot, this is any buffs to crit chance or damage to Aimed Shot. Trick Shots will not be sending Wind Arrows all over the place.

25 Likes

Happy Friday Nimox! Thank you for another post. Here’s some initial feedback:

A lot of the concern surrounding Legacy of the Windrunners and Windrunner’s Guidance is that the proc rate is the same as it was in Legion (15%). In Legion, we casted significantly more Aimed Shots since it did not have charges. Despite it being passive, I think it is very interesting for single target builds since it can quickly build Bullseye stacks, however I am worried that its current proc rate/damage is too weak to be viable. I hope the team looks at the proc rate or damage on the Wind Arrows such that it is a competitive choice in single target talent setups.

Absolutely love this. I will continue to be annoying and ask if there is any consideration to swap the place of this talent with Eagletalon’s True Focus. Even if that would result in a net nerf, I care more about having a choice node where I have to think about the type of content that I am doing before making my selection. As it stands, whatever provides more throughput will be the talent taken in all scenarios when looking at Unerring Vision and ETF. Having to make a decision between Unerring Vision and Calling the Shots allows MM hunters to choose between an extra powerful 2 minute Trueshot versus a less powerful but more frequent Trueshot.

The design decisions behind Bombardment and the new Bulletstorm are positive, and I am excited to try out Bulletstorm. While Multi-Shot does not currently do significant damage in AoE, it does not have a hard target cap and should make MM slightly more competitive in scenarios where there are more targets than Trick Shots allows for.

One of the things that would help MM build variety is leaning a little bit more into Rapid Fire and introducing additional talents that specifically buff Rapid Fire (as opposed to Rapid Fire and Aimed Shot). I think the return of the BfA azerite trait, In The Rhythm, adds a significant boost to the power of Rapid Fire and would be a fun talent. A new choice node talent to pair with Careful Aim (Rapid Fire or Aimed Shot damage increased under 20%) would be great choices as well, although I understand that’s probably more of a longshot.

15 Likes

Has there been any discussion about replacing Survival’s Mastery on your team? Many feel it’s pretty dull as far as masteries go— at least for us—it’s a more specific yet worse Versatility.

10 Likes