Feedback: Hunters

Also Deadly Duo doesn’t ever make Kill Shot usable on resets (a chance proc I know, but after 50 resets and it never happening once I’m pretty sure it just isn’t working).

5 Likes

Since there are ton of bugs making Survival untestable right now. (And they seem to have been well documented in previous forum posts) I wanted to share my thoughts on the updated talent tree.

  1. Coordinated Assault being changed to a 3 minute CD just to have the next node reduce it back to it’s former CD length feels like fluffy on the tree. The additional buffs to the CD just don’t warrant such a change (let alone they are both currently bugged). Change bonded companion to reduce the CD a little further or have it add time to Coordinated Assault similar to the conduit.

  2. Vipers Venom, a primarily single target node, is on the AoE side of the tree. It leads straight into WFI. Swap VV with one of the other generic buff nodes on the right or it would be nice for VV to replace Bloodly Claws. You really don’t KC during the late parts of your Mongoose window making the talent lack luster. You could replace the empty node spot VV leaves with our legendary Wildfire Cluster.

  3. Ferocity node feels like fluff. Our pets don’t really do much damage as it is.

  4. Coordinated Kill also feels underwhelming. Our Kill Command does very little damage and is there for focus regen. This just doesn’t fit for being at the bottom of the tree and being 3 points.

  5. Harpoon feels bad being a big movement ability for us on the tree, but then again with it being near the top it isn’t too bad. Especially after reducing all the 3 point nodes recently.

  6. It’s been mentioned a few times, but adding Carve/Butchery to being able to pop Latent Poison would be huge.

  7. With there being a handful of nodes feeling like they are fluff, PLEASE bring back Black Arrow. It was one of the last staples of SV before the revert. While it would be nice to see it back in its original form, understandably so it probably couldn’t with Explosive Shot being in the class tree. You could have it make your next Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite/Wildfire Bomb free.

Appreciate all the Devs hard work as always and it is nice to see more interaction with the community. Looking forward to the SV fixes so we can test out the tree properly.

13 Likes

Did some heroic dungeons as BM. Felt similar to SL BM, though that may be because of a lot of the new stuff isn’t functioning yet. I like live BM, and the new stuff looks pretty cool, so I’m looking forward to testing all that. All-in-all, I’m happy with how the BM tree is shaping up.

Barbed Shot
Right now, you have way too many Barbed Shot charges/resets, especially for how little crit/haste we have. This may be due to Call of the Wild bugs. Regardless, BM has a history of having too many Barbed Shot resets/having issues avoiding overcapping on Focus later on in a given expansion. While getting a lot of resets and Focus makes the spec feel fast and fun, getting too much Focus/too many charges and being unable to spend it all without letting important abilities sit off CD does not feel good. You might say “If you find you have too many charges/too much Focus, talent out of One with the Pack/Wild Call/Scent of Blood/Flamewaker’s Cobra Sting”, but there is a bare minimum number of Barbed Shot resets required to make the spec feel functional, so it’s a balancing act. Maybe in addition to the existing levers for how many resets we get, we could get an additional way to dump Focus quickly? Or even an ability that consumes Frenzy stacks.

Sharp Barbs/In for the Kill
I think the left-side route of Sharp Barbs/In for the Kill is unlikely to be taken in its current state. BM doesn’t have any synergy with Kill Shot (no hooks in spec kit, no Mastery scaling), and Sharp Barbs is generously a 1-1.5% DPS upgrade. Besides tuning, the bigger issue with that side of the tree is that it doesn’t really lead into anything useful – it gets you to Dire Command 1 point cheaper than going through Thrill (Thrill is a very strong talent), but it doesn’t give you direct access to anything else – you’re still going to have to take either Thrill or Beast Cleave to get to BW, which is effectively a mandatory talent, so you aren’t actually saving any points. That might all be fine if these were interesting talents, but these aren’t talents that I’d ever take for any other reason than “because sims tell me they’re good on pure ST”.

8 Likes

Don’t have much free time right now to give detailed feedback for this build but I have a few things to say:

Firstly, SV tree has improved in a positive direction with the talent point cost reduction. Well done. However I still have a few concerns. The tree is still rather bland with a ton of just flat damage increases.

On top of that I think we still need an extra melee ability for Survival. In one of my last posts I mentioned lacerate would be a better kill shot proccing mechanic than the one based off of KC resets (which is honestly a very low chance). Spearheaded seems it’ll take the place of what coordinated assault is right now, however it looks like the talents like Bird of Prey make way more sense to follow Spearheaded instead of this new CA.

Lastly, an extra defensive for SV somewhere in the tree could be good if we can still get some of these flat damage modifiers removed. I am still a fan of my previous suggestion mentioning something similar to TBC deterrence and counterattack.

Overall the SV tree is improved and while I believe it still can definitely use more polish I like the direction you guys have taken feedback!

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Flanking Strike could fit this niche. If Bloody Claws were to reduce the CD of Flanking Strike, instead of the current effect, it would be a more more welcome inclusion into the rotation as well as provide natural synergy to the Mongoose Fury windows.

Not to mention, with FS working with Frenzied Strikes it seems to fit in many situations.

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We really need clarification on how Coordinated Assault & Spearhead are going to work, including their respective talents underneath.

As it reads, Coordinated Assault does nothing on single target, unless you are in execute range (or get a Deadly Duo proc, which requires you to take a separate talent and does not even guarantee a single use during the cooldown). For a 3 minute cooldown, that’s pretty bad…

However, there was a time on Alpha where my pet’s Basic Attacks were giving a charge of Kill Shot and allowing it to be used at any % HP. I really, really hope this is intended as it is powerful on single target, and has great synergy with Explosives Expert for additional Wildfire Bomb casts. If this is the case, I would think Birds of Prey should also allow Kill Shot casts to extend the duration of Coordinated Assault.

Regarding Spearhead, it seems like it is clearly meant to be the live version of Coordinated Assault. The talent underneath, Coordinated Kill, implies that it works with Coordinated Assault. I assume this is a tooltip error and it actually works with Spearhead instead (once Spearhead is implemented of course), but it would be nice to have that cleared up.

The team should re-consider the “scaling” of Ruthless Marauder and Coordinated Kill. As it stands, the 3rd point in both talents is guaranteed to put you over 100% crit on Kill Command/Fury of the Eagle, so the 3rd point in each is largely wasted.

Lastly, is it intended that Predator only has a 12% (down from 25%) proc chance now? If that’s the case, Deadly Duo is going to need a buff, re-design, or removal because we are going to be resetting Kill Command significantly less.

20 Likes

Tbh that sounds like mostly a pvp defensive, while the entire class can benefit from flat class wide defensives.

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Dnno is it only useful for PvP though? Are blur/evasion awful in PvE for rogues and DH?

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Deterrence is basically current turtle (in terms of utility in PvE) and i feel like having 2 separate pseudo-immunities would just be weird.

Counterattack - doesn’t actually stop any damage going to us, even if it functioned exactly like evasion, it still has very low impact in PvE as you rarely can use evasion for things outside of auto-attacks in raid (and again, it’s more of a potential cheese/immunity ability) , in keys it’s a tiny bit better due to fixates and a few more mechanics that you can usually dodge, but still too unreliable to be actually defensive.

I think it can help survival to have something that they can still attack during, which is how that version of deterrence functioned. The difference between that and turtle would be a full immunity vs a minor defensive we can attack during.

While most of my PvE experience was during BfA, I don’t really see how giving a defensive Survival Hunters could actually attack during would be harmful.

Right, I think it doesn’t necessarily have to be something that you NEED to take, but just something that could have some sort of utility in general. I don’t see why a node that goes off to the side somewhere could not just add these in

It would be far more significant in PvP of course but even then you wouldn’t take it into every single team either, but it would at least give some sort of incentive to go toe to toe with other melee more and give a reason for them to not just exclusively sit on you too.

I’m just not necessarily seeing the harm in adding something extra to the spec to let it melee more. We are really compromised on points currently - but I think that is still because of a heavy emphasis on our tree still having a large amount of flat damage modifiers.

However if something like this should be class wide, the aspect of the cheetah artifact power from legion that gave a bonus of dodge and immunity to movement impairing effects could be somewhat useful too.

4 Likes

Hello again, Hunters.

We wanted to discuss some adjustments coming to your talents in a future build, and briefly mention a few thoughts.

Class Tree
The current design intentionally has almost all utility above the second gate, which means you have 11 points that will almost certainly be spent only on throughput choices in PvE situations. We like having a bunch of abilities located past the second gate that were previously locked to individual specs. This has also created a situation where there’s a lot of bloat of extra abilities and cooldowns that feel mandatory because they are available and likely worth pressing. The last 3 rows of the tree have been shuffled around a bit and will continue to be adjusted to try to prevent most hunters from feeling obligated to acquire multiple extra active buttons.

  • Barrage and Explosive Shot are now a choice node.
  • Stampede now replaces Chakram in the choice node vs Death Chakram.
    • Chakram has been removed from the talent tree.
  • Nesingwary’s Trapping Apparatus has been lowered to 2 points.

Beast Mastery

  • Bloodshed and Murder of Crows is now a choice node, and is where Dire Beast previously was.
  • Dire Beast has been moved to where Murder of Crows was.
  • New Talent - Bloody Frenzy - Barbed Shot has a chance to apply a second stack of Frenzy to your pets. This is located in the second gate area.
  • Beast Cleave has been lowered to 2 points, and Beast Cleave’s duration is now 3/6 seconds depending on your rank.

Marksmanship
While Rapid Fire is not a required ability, we’re trying to integrate it to the tree where it would make sense. Marksmanship has very limited passive Focus generation, and Rapid Fire should ideally help with that. We want to avoid situations where you drop Steady Shot entirely while doing prolonged combat.

  • Deathblow has been made a 1-point node. Rapid Fire casts (not damage events) can now also activate this. The chance for activation is different for Aimed Shot vs Rapid Fire.
  • Razor Fragments now also works with Deathblow procs, rather than being tied solely to Trick Shots.
  • Bombardment’s design has changed - Every 6/4 (2-rank node) Arcane or Chimaera Shots causes your next Multi-Shot to grant you Trick Shots, regardless of how many targets it hits.
    • This will likely be changed to a 1-point node, or adjusted to also boost Multi-Shot damage per rank. The location of this also needs to be adjusted as you can currently select this without Multi-Shot.
  • Lone Wolf’s spot in the tree has been moved to above the first gate.
  • More things connect to Lock and Load’s talent node.
  • Some redundant node connections have been removed.
  • Legacy of the Windrunners and Serpentstalker’s Trickery node locations have been swapped.
  • Unerring Vision’s design has slightly changed to also increase critical damage while Trueshot is active.

Survival
Spearhead and Coordinated Assault are competing for some space in the tree. We’re hoping to identify a set of abilities to that each augments in a way that feels good, and also would prefer a design that doesn’t encourage you to stack both of them at the same time. Some adjustments are being made to these abilities to try to focus on different parts of your ability sets in a manner that lets both Coordinated Assault and Spearhead hopefully feel both distinct from each other, while still feeling powerful on their own.

  • Mongoose Bite should actually replace Raptor Strike now.
  • Predator returned to 25%, rather than 8%. This was a data error when changing from a 3 point node to a 1 point node.
  • A connection between Lunge and Frenzy Strikes has been removed to prevent a dependency problem.
  • Deadly Duo renamed Quick Shot, and redesigned. When Kill Command’s cooldown is reset, you fire a free Arcane Shot at your target.
  • Coordinated Assault is back to 2 minutes.
  • Coordinated Assault no longer modifies Carve. Instead, your pet’s special attack increases the initial damage of your next Wildfire Bomb.
    • Birds of Prey will likely be adjusted in a future build to more directly work with the design tweaks of Coordinated Assault.
  • Bonded Companion renamed Deadly Duo, and redesigned. While Coordinated Assault is active, Wildfire Bomb’s cooldown is reduced by 25/50%, Wildfire Bombs generate 5/10 Focus when thrown, and Kill Shot can be used on any target regardless of the target’s HP.
  • Coordinated Kill redesigned, and is now 2 points. While Spearhead is active, Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite Focus Cost is reduced by 5/10, and Kill Command resets increase the duration of Spearhead by 1/2 sec.
49 Likes

Absolutely great! Super exciting to see where this is at next build. Each of these iterations is so fantastic to see. I cannot say enough how appreciative many in the community are for this impactful and prompt response to the feedback so far.

Do you know if there’s an update in the pipeline to address the lack of group utility or defensives? Or does the team see Hunter’s niche to be much higher damage than other classes to offset the group utility?

20 Likes

These changes are awesome and address a lot of the issues with each of the talent trees. Amazing job team!

I am struggling to see what the intended purpose of this talent is. BM doesn’t have any issues stacking Frenzy to 3, but maintaining those stacks and this would not help with uptime at all. Also, we already have a talent called Bloody Frenzy (bottom right capstone choice node).

Love this addition since crit damage synergizes well with all of our crit chance amplifiers (Keen Eyesight, Killing Blow, Hunter’s Knowledge, Bullseye, etc.). Are there any considerations being made to re-work Calling the Shots (i.e. any Focus spent reduces Trueshot CD) or bring back the BfA version of Master Marksman, letting us cast Arcane Shot or Multi-Shot more easily during Trueshot?

Are the talents on the right side of the MM tree going to have any additional paths to reach them? This side of the tree seems unnecessarily restrictive. To take Wailing Arrow, you have to take Focused Aim, Dead Eye, Serpentstalker’s Trickery, and Bullseye, with no other path to get there.

I think this has potential, but Arcane Shot has no synergy with Survival as it stands. This might be more interesting if Ranger also buffed Arcane Shot.

Will Coordinated Assault also still modify your next Kill Shot such that it applies Bleeding Gash? If that is the case, not having Kill Shot resets or lowering the cooldown limits the amount of Bleeding Gash debuffs you can apply during the duration of Coordinated Assault. Regardless, I think this talent is still strong on single-target scenarios due to the Wildfire Bomb interaction, but looking for some clarification here.

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Thank you so much for your continued communication! Lots of these changes sound great.

I love the talent position swaps and the Beast Cleave change. It never made sense to me that the Dire Beast focused-stuff was in the bottom left and Dire Beast itself was in the top right, and making Bloodshed/AMoC a choice node should help avoid some button bloat. Giving us a little more leeway on Beast Cleave, now that we’re trying to fit Kill Command into those windows, will also really help.

About Bloody Frenzy: IMO, getting from 0 → 3 Frenzy stacks quickly has never been the issue for BM, it’s always been about sustaining our stacks. BM gameplay since BFA has always consisted of getting to 3 stacks fairly easily, but then needing a critical mass of crit/haste/resets to maintain it. Regardless of whether you hit a one stack or a two stack, you’re still going to want another Barbed Shot ready when those Frenzy stacks’ duration is running out. Unless the expected gameplay for this talent is to get to 3 stacks and then drop it because you’re running a build with a low number of resets, this doesn’t make sense to me.

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Wow

Double wow.

Really interesting change and now I can see some reasoning to choose between SH or CA.

Very well done, you guys keep making SV better and better. I was incredibly disappointed when initially seeing these trees and every update has been very impressive.

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Could it function as a separate buff that stacks with the baseline one (thus being useful even when refreshing Frenzy at 3 stacks), or is simply to get 3 stacks faster and not do anything if refreshing at 2/3 stacks.

Great change.

I’d gladly trade pet hp/trailblazer for defensives / raid utility.

Also things like Improved Tranq Shot for 2 points looks insanely meh, and even if i take it, i don’t see a scenario where I’d really want to take it.

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I’m excited to see the tree in the next build. The last two builds have had a few of our talents not work, I am hoping this is resolved next build so we can test them.

You guys are doing a 10/10 job on communicating with us!

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One more piece of feedback based on some discussions with other hunters:

The other choice nodes in the MM tree are interesting because your selection is not purely based on what provides more throughput. This choice node is going to solely come down to throughput. A suggestion that was brought to my attention is swapping the positions of Calling the Shots and Eagletalon’s True Focus. Calling the Shots might need additional tuning to compete with Unerring Vision in general, but there are specific situations where you would want to select a shorter cooldown Trueshot (M+ or a Sludgefist type fight) over a Trueshot that has a longer cooldown but is much more impactful (Lords of Dread).

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I cannot upvote this enough. Sounds incredible and i cant wait to test it on tuesday.

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This sounds… interesting? Will something replace Stampede, or will that node just disappear? Same with Barrage?

…respectfully, what?

Rapid Fire is one of the main 2 damaging rotational skills for Marksman and has been for years.

It just feels like you guys are aiming to turn all 3 hunter specs into a 2-3 button rotation, and that feels really bad.

As another poster said, this would make sense if talents like Ranger affected Arcane Shot - otherwise there’s zero synergy with this talent.

This feels… weird. Don’t get me wrong, the new talents sound solid, I just mean the placement in the tree feels weird.

Bonded Companion is the gateway to Birds of Prey, which is a Raptor/Mongoose Bite talent. So wouldn’t having the new Coordinated Kill that affects Mongoose/Raptor make more sense in that spot?

But at the same time, Spearhead, which is required for the new Coordinated Kill is a Mongoose/Raptor strike talent as well.

It just feels disjointed is all. The new Deadly Duo sounds great, but it doesn’t have any synergy with Coordinated Assault and Birds of Prey, which is the “tree” they’re in. Just feels like it’d be better as the leftside’s endcap talent (as the left side is mainly about AoE), and move Fury of the Eagle to the middle, with a possibly reworked Birds of Prey to also have Fury of the Eagle trigger the extension too?

Obviously I can’t see the changes yet, so I’m trying to visualize, but as I can tell, it seems disjointed. But I’ll see how it feels once it’s out.

That said, I do hope you guys do address the fact we have 2 endcap talents that cost more than 1 point, despite the fact every other spec except 1 have only 1 point endcaps.

5 Likes