Feedback: Hunters

This is my concern as well. Covenants and legendaries largely made up for the definiciencies hunters have in regards to survivability. Most classes nowadays have multiple ways of healing themselves, and even rogues have their crimson vial heal. Hunters have a cool ability already, mending bandages, but it’s locked as a survival only pvp talent. Maybe it can also get the scatter shot treatment and have a place on the hunter tree?

For me cooldown reduction talents for exhilaration aren’t too exciting and thematically I’m not even sure what exhilaration is or means. I like the role play and nostalgia aspect of using a bandage for a large heal.

5 Likes

A 6 second channel (cancelled by taking damage) to heal for 30% HP isn’t going to help us at all in PvE. It shines in PvP thats why its a PvP talent.

13 Likes

But exil heals more and better than the bandage ?

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Over time mending bandages would heal for more given both of their cds. I’m not saying they should get rid of exhilaration though.

I just think its a cool ability and would like it as a talent, or atleast open to BM and MM. IDK if the rationale is still the same for limiting it only to survival but I feel like it wouldnt break the game. Plenty of pure dps have access to reliable short cd heals now and I like the idea of a self sufficient mm/ranger hunter.

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Issue being that in the current format it just would need to be reworked into basically being another crimson vial.

In any group PvE content it’s current pvp version is un-usable.

If it took 1 gcd it would have some place, but it wouldn’t fix an issue of defensives, as it still doesn’t prevent you getting 1 shot in any form.

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Mending bandage would be terrible in PvE and honestly it already has it’s moments where it can be too oppressive in PvP due to dot wipe mechanics and that’s still for SV

Giving access to BM or MM with that could pretty easily get problematic in PvP while doing pmuch nothing to help you out in PvE

Don’t think it ever really gets used for more than the bleed/disease wipe anyways

I think there’s far better tools we could have access to lol, using mending for a heal just seems pretty whack this could pmuch only just backfire in PvP

17 Likes

A few things I would like to see change with the hunter class, mainly talking about BM because that is what I have the most experience with.

One thing that I think would be nice would be to make Barbed shot be a choice node with dire beast and make it like legion dire beast. I think this will be controversial but I really did enjoy having an army of pets. I actually enjoyed the playstyle a bit more than just having to maintain a buff every 8 seconds. And making it a choice node would I think make everyone happy so people that enjoy either playstyle will be able to play how they want.

I’d like to see lynx rush come back in some way, maybe replacing stampede and making it be an aoe talent. Maybe being something like “Command your pet to ravage anything near your target causing them to leap at the target and pouncing X number of times and applying a bleed to all target within Y yards stacking up to X times.” I think this would be good because for survival stampede is kind of awkward because you are melee and it has a 40 yard range. Meaning you could pull things easily in a dungeon by using the ability in melee range. But also because I feel like it is a thematic ability for BM making your pet jump in and bleed things.

I’d also like to see a node under Murder of Crows that is only connected to murder of crows and nothing else that causes Murder of Crows to spread by using multi-shot. So the talent would read “Your next multi-shot within 5 seconds of using murder of crows will cause more crows to gather on any target hit near the murder of crows target”

Another thing I’d like to see is instead of making Beast Cleave do more damage per point, actually making the same damage but increasing the duration per point. so 4,5,6 seconds. I think this would help because it would synergize with the kill cleave talent that is right after. Because having to do kill command in that 4 second window while also keeping up barbed shot can be a little awkward at times. And let’s say you don’t want to have kill cleave but you still want beast cleave, well you could just take 1 point in it and still be just as effective damage wise.

Lastly I would like to see Titan’s Thunder return from legion in the choice node at the capstone trait to the right instead of wild instincts. I feel like it fits better than just having a chance at getting more barbed shots.

That is just what I have thought about when playing the hunter on alpha. I think the tree great so far but that is just what I’d like to see personally.

14 Likes

Specific to beast cleave as it feels right now:

Duration - 4 seconds is just too short. Between having to ramp up and manage frenzy, time our kill commands, plus multi-shot… a 6-8 second duration would feel SO much better. Acknowledging my BM bias, I’d argue a higher duration would allow for BM to play more fluid, rather than feeling like a constant up and down battle of frenzy/cleave, especially with moving pack to pack in dungeons.

Damage - of course hard to say for sure without a damage meter, but in the last dungeon I did the numbers seemed good. The 75% damage on cleave and the 50% on kill commands is nice; time will tell if it can compete with traditional AOE specs, and maintain viability for higher mythic+ runs.

Pet AI - granted I’ve only done a couple dungeons on the alpha, but I did not encounter any issues with my pets and beast cleave; everything seems to work the way it should be. A suggestion for the combat log would be mark the damage from Kill Cleave differently. Right now I believe the cleave damage from kill command just shows as “Beast Cleave”; it would nice to have a better way to differentiate between regular cleave auto attacks and the Kill Cleave damage - especially when it comes to logs and testing different specs in the future.

Talent choices - let’s be honest, there really aren’t many options here. In order to play with any AOE, BM hunters are pretty pigeon-holed into specific talents. In order to maintain any decent amount of frenzy, we have to take Loaded Quiver. In order to actually have this AOE, we need to take Multi-Shot, Beast Cleave, and Kill Cleave. Bestial Wrath is a no-brainer, but then in order to have decent uptime with that, we need to take Barbed Wrath to get that CD reduction, as it’s no longer baseline. One could argue that even Scent of Blood is mandatory to maintain frenzy over a longer period of time.

Bottom line - there are some good improvements already made, but a few more QoL changes would really be welcome. Longer duration on cleave, and maybe taking a closer look at the relationship that BM hunters have with ramping up and maintaining frenzy, as it’s a “feels bad” to fight that constant up and down as it currently plays.

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I don’t think Kill Cleave currently works on the Alpha. The bigger numbers you’re seeing from Beast Cleave are your pet’s special attack.

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Ah, good to know. That certainly would make sense.

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This looks a bit too niche to see that much use. The current iteration of Salvo is so much stronger (perhaps too strong), making our Multi-Shot a good source of damage instead of just a Trick-Shots activator.

I would much rather see this tied to Volley since they share the same cooldown. It would also prevent scenarios where we want to activate Trick-shots but not have the Explosive effect proc.

7 Likes

The way I see it, there are two possible uses for this new version of it:

  1. You use it on new add spawns in raid/on a new pack in M+, and you just get a big burst of damage before going into your normal AOE rotation. Adds spawns are obviously a pretty common fight mechanic, but generally only a few times per fight; this would have to slam for that very specific niche to be the sole reason to pick this up.
  2. You use Multi-Shot on ST at max stacks. Just comparing the damage of the abilities in-game, you’d only need like a ~150% damage buff for Multi-Shot to be worth using on ST (accounting for armor, etc.). The requirement would be even smaller if there were two targets stacked. If this is intended to be mainly an 1T/2T talent instead of an AOE talent, it’s a little weird that it’s in the AOE section of the tree (since it’s niche for AOE), but I guess it has to be a child node of Multi-Shot to make sense.

Salvo sounded strong, but it wasn’t a talent that made you think at all. Not saying this new version is perfect, though – if I’m making an 1T/2T build and this is an upgrade, then I have to “waste” a point on Trick Shots to get it – and if I’m building for AOE, I probably won’t get a lot of value out of this since I don’t want to be casting Arcane Shot (except for the first Multi I cast when an add wave spawns/a pack is pulled, if we’re talking about a fight that goes between ST and add spawns).

I think the idea is that you’re taking this on a mixed fight (some periods of ST, some add spawns) and you’re generally spending your Multi-Shots at max stacks on ST, but with the extra consideration of “Should I spend my stacks here, or should I save them for that add wave that’s coming up soon?”, or something. Tracking that Bombardment buff so you don’t waste empowered Multi Shots and thinking about when adds are spawning with regards to when you spend your Multi Shots would be a little more interesting than old Salvo, which could be effectively ignored (as powerful as it sounded).

Also definitely want this off Multi-Shot, even just back on Death Chakram like Munitions if it’s easier would work too, controlling when we proc the effect as well as not having to waste a point on Multi-Shot on 2-target when we’d already be taking Chimaera Shot sounds better.

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Any updates on the discussion regarding design intention for group utility and defensive?

18 Likes

Thoughts on new trees:

Barrage being in the class tree but literally not working for Survival, even with a Ranged Weapon equipped, is weird. Shouldn’t this just be moved to the MM/BM tree if you’re going to make it so SV can’t use it at all?

Just feels weird to have a skill in a class tree that one spec just outright can’t use at all no matter what? (If this is just a tooltip thing on wowhead, disregard, but it’s changed since last week to say BM and MM only)


Viper’s Venom should really be in the right side of the tree - Left side is AoE focused, Right side is ST focused, but Viper’s Venom, a ST talent, is in the left side?

Swapping Tactical Advantage and Viper’s Venom would make more sense - TA gives Wildfire Damage. (I know the main focus is the Flanking Strike damage, but still makes more sense :P) Or even adding Carve/Butchery to Viper’s Venom would work, lol.


Why does Survival have multiple 3-point endcap talents? Other than SV, only Devastation has an endcap that’s more than 1 point, and it’s a single one that costs 2. (And much like the multi-point SV ones, it’s not worth grabbing for multiple points) Yet SV has 2 that cost 3?


On that note, Personally speaking, the Survival Endcap talents are… not appealing? I literally went through the talent calculator and ended up with a spec not grabbing any of the 3 endcaps. - Birds of Prey is unappealing to me as I don’t like the playstyle - I’m sure it’ll be viable and used. Just giving my personal perspective.

One is we have to spend 3 talent points to get 100% crit on next kill command after reset, ONLY while Coordinated Assault is up? 3 points for a relatively minor dps increase as an endcap talent? If it was 1 point, sure, but not 3.

I’m sure Birds of Prey will be used - it’s just not a playstyle I enjoy, ever since its inception. No hate to people who like it though. So please no hate on this lol.

And Fury of the Eagle is great but it’s not the endcap, the endcap is the 3 points to get 45% crit for it (which has a decent cooldown) and CD reduction on other abilities when it crits? That’s… not appealing. If you have bad luck, you could just not crit very often and thus waste 3 points. And even if you do get crits, WF Bomb’s cooldown is so low you probably wouldn’t notice it much as FotE has a decently hefty cooldown - And Flanking Strike’s CD is high enough that if you were critting enough with FotE to notice it, you’d be in an AOE fight, where you wouldn’t be using Flanking Strike, so…?

22 Likes
  • Mongoose Bite isn’t stacking Mongoose Fury at all so it’s a bit hard to test how this feels with Tip / VV / Bloody Claws etc

  • Serpent Sting is unusable with a melee weapon still

Have to admit I am a bit disappointed with the changes to MM. This disappointment is exacerbated considering the vast majority of the new/returning talents do not work on Alpha, so it is hard to provide proper feedback.

  • The right side of the MM tree is not accessible at all. On the right side of the tree, every single talent (Focused Aimed, Dead Eye, Legacy of the Windruners, Bullseye) has a link to move to the left side of the tree. Besides the top third of the tree with Hunter’s Knowledge or Chimaera shot, there are no other ways to navigate to the 4 aforementioned talents and ultimately the capstone, currently Wailing Arrow. A link from Double Tap to Legacy of the Windrunners or Lone Wolf to Bullseye would massively improve the ability to navigate this side of tree.
  • It is clear that the left side of the tree plays into an AoE build, while the right side of the tree is more focused on single target. While Wailing Arrow does technically provide a benefit on single target encounters, its place in the tree is a bit bizarre considering you have to take all these single target talents to get to an AoE silence ability.
  • Deathblow is now a 2 point talent, and currently that 2nd point does not do anything. I would assume it’s a 10%/20% talent now. If that’s the case, I don’t even see this as a buff. The MM tree, alongside BM and SV, is more expensive (meaning the number of talent points needed to complete the tree) than every single spec tree released so far outside of guardian druid. Serpentstalker’s Trickery suffers from the same problem - it has no business being a 2 point talent, especially considering the 2nd point really doesn’t do anything of value since you only need 1 point to consistently maintain Serpent Sting.
  • This iteration of Razor Fragments is far too restrictive. We have the perfect version of this talent now with the Venthyr legendary- why not just make this talent “Bonus Kill Shots from Deathblow cause…”? Tying it to Trick Shots is unnecessary.
  • I am of the belief that a single target focused build will still not pick any of the capstone talents. Salvo and Wailing Arrow have minor benefits on single target, but their clear uses are for multi-target scenarios. I will continue to argue that Calling the Shots synergizes poorly with Trueshot and is an incredibly weak talent. Since the team is okay with hunters wasting their Precise Shots procs during Trueshot and not casting Arcane Shot, why not change this talent to reduce the cooldown of Trueshot based on any focus spent? Eagletalon’s True Focus is the worst MM specific legendary on live at the moment, so Unerring Vision would need to provide a significant power boost to justify the points spent in Calling the Shots.
  • My campaign to bring back Rapid Killing (crit damage during Trueshot) continues. I think it would fit very well as a capstone talent where Wailing Arrow is now. It synergizes with Bullseye, which could be the link above it. You could add a link from Trueshot → Serpentstalker’s Trickery → Rapid Killing to tie it to Trueshot, since you do need Trueshot for it to do anything. Or you could scrap ETF entirely and make Rapid Killing be the other choice node option alongside Unerring Vision.

All the feedback for MM aside, I think the team continues to do an incredible job with the BM tree. The new/changing talents involving Dire Beast seem very interested and I am excited to test them once they are working on Alpha. It makes me hopeful that MM and SV will continue to improve over the next few months.

34 Likes

Markmanship:

I like how the tree is split with AoE talents on the left side and Single Target on the right. It would be really nice if Deathblow was more in the center of the tree so that we could spec into it when going Single Target. Its a bit out of place on the left side of the tree, locked behind several AoE talents and only being there as an activator for Razor Fragments. Alternatively, it could be moved to the class tree (Possibly in place of Nessingwary’s?) And just work off Aimed Shot/Kill Command/Raptor Strike since all three specs have a version of this talent in their tree (Deathblow for Marksmanship, In for the Kill for Beast Mastery and Deadly Duo for Survival).

I really think Bullseye and Windrunner’s Guidance should be 1 point talents. Most builds can easily get 2 end-of-tree nodes while we struggle to get one. Having those two extra points would let us get everything we need when focusing purely on Single Target.

Beast Mastery:

Unless this is done intentionally because of the power of these nodes, it doesn’t make sense to me why it takes 8 points to get to Dire Pack from the Bestial Wrath node and only 5 points to get to Blood Frenzy/Wild Instincts from the same node. On top of that, you can grab Wailing Arrow for 1 point along the way.

As stated in my previous post, I really think Barbed Wrath should be made available to everyone. Barbed reducing BW cooldown is such an integral part of the spec, locking it on one side of the tree is just forcing everyone over there.

38 Likes

One thing I’ve been feeling particularly with AOE builds for Marksmanship is a serious case of unavoidable button bloat with the Hunter Tree primarily to blame. It’s one of the inevitable consequences of the tree having to accomodate both pet and no pet builds, so there’s a distinct portion of the tree that’s just inherently off-limts. So for MM we’re led to the bottom right chunk of the tree, and in the small corner alone we have to pick up a whopping 4 dps actives because there’s literally just no more output contributing nodes to pick otherwise at that point. So those now slide onto my bars but by the time I put Explosive Shot somewhere I’m already out of keybinds that I’m accustomed to on retail, though I could maybe make room and offer up my Healthstone binding as long as you don’t tell my healers. It feels like the Hunter Tree could use some padding with passive effects that help steer paths capped by active ability nodes away from each other, preventing any one optimal build from feeling obligated or even able to load up on all the active abilities available.

I personally volunteer up Barrage, the scourge of Seagulls, to be exiled to the outer reaches of charted space.

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After the latest patch update: Alpha Build 447958

Here’s a list of current bugs I’ve found so far with Survival Hunter
which are preventing accurate testing of talents and builds in general.

  1. Serpent Sting requires a ranged weapon

  2. Hydra’s Bite doesn’t apply additional Serpent Stings

  3. Volatile Bomb doesn’t apply additional Serpent Stings

  4. Viper’s Venom doesn’t apply Serpent Sting - could be an issue that SS requires a ranged weapon to be fired normally. However, you cannot RS with a ranged weapon.

  5. Butchery doesn’t work - you cannot use the button. You can select the talent.

  6. Coordinated Assault additional Carve reduction of WFB doesn’t work

  7. Coordinated Assault Kill Shot reduction of WFB doesn’t work

  8. Fury of the Eagle CD is not reduced by Kill Command resets

  9. Ruthless Marauder does not work - FotE crits do not reduce WFB CD.

  10. Lunge is 1 yard increase in range not 3?

  11. Explosives Expert doesn’t work - doesn’t reduce WFB CD.

  12. Coordinated Assault is resetting Kill Shot and Carve if this is intended it is not displayed in the tooltip.

  13. Mongoose Bite is not stacking.

^ All of these issues make it impossible to play Survival right now. However, I love the idea of the general playstyle.

General Feedback

  1. Coordinated Assault being changed to a 3min CD and then given a 2 point talent to reduce it to 2min again feels like someone saying they’ll trade me a £10 note for a £5 note.

  2. Coordinated Kill is accessed exclusively from Spearhead however, it impacts Coordinated Assault use. You can talent into Coordinated Kill without having Coordinated Assault talented. Additionally, it’s difficult to justify Coordinated Kill as it’s so deep down the righthand side of the tree and requires 3 points. I am not 100% sure you’d take Coordinated Kill even at level 70 with Coordinated Assault talented into as you have better options such as Ranger, Bonded Companion and Birds of Prey.

  3. Latent Poison being “popped” by butchery or carve would be fantastic <3

22 Likes