I don’t know what this means exactly but I HAD to post and say YYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSS
Good changes so far, seems like some improvements. I like that it looks like we’re trying to give the option of a more ranged focused or melee focused Survival.
One suggestion I’m curious about the teams thoughts on is changing the SV hunter method of proccing Kill Shots. Instead of a remixed version of the Shadowlands SV 4pc tier bonus (with a lower proc chance), how about potentially readding lacerate as another melee skill that could proc kill shots. Similar to flayed shot but potentially with a proc rate balanced around uptime on the dot and if we can have it on multiple targets or not. I think it might feel better flavor wise and could be interesting to have better synergy with our talent that makes Kill Shot reduce WfB CD.
Additionally I’ve thought about some old school TBC Classic SV hunter talents: namely the old version of deterrence and counterattack. This could help give an extra defensive for SV hunters that can let them stay in melee range in certain scenarios with great usefulness in PvE and PvP. Counterattack as a choice following it could be interesting to give you the option of using any of your avoidance as a way to just disengage from an enemy melee entirely (or to keep your uptime on one of their partners).
One last point: Shrapnel Bombs effect has been pretty underwhelming since BfA. This is a pure tuning issue of course, but I think it might be interesting since the effect of the other 2 have felt great to me with Shrapnel being lackluster.
Just some thoughts, I like the direction we’re going towards however!
Before expectations might get out of hand, we don’t have any intention of making a ranged Survival “subspec” of the sorts. The Ranger talent is not intended to divert your gameplay into using Steady Shot instead of Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite. Hunters as a whole have some ranged attacks, and Survival hunters, while primarily melee, do still shoot things.
The intent of the Ranger talent is to bump your ranged damage up a bit for encounters or PvP or whatever gameplay where that is important, not turn Survival into a full ranged DPS spec. We still intend Survival to be in melee, with a melee weapon, doing melee things. Sometimes they also shoot.
It just keeps getting better!
So excited for BM holy smokes
Totally fair to me, and I’ve been a pretty big fan of SV in PvP anyways since Legion. If that’s the case with the ranger talent, would we have to be making weapon swap macros to utilize steady shot? Or would that be usable with our melee weapons? From PvP purposes, this does sound really interesting to me, thanks for the reply!
I dont think people would be mad of you DID make a ranged subset of survival though.
All in all, good changes, but i will speak for all old survival hunter mains when i say, please bring back old explosive shot / reset in some capacity.
Luckily, wildfire bombs already fullfill a very explosive shot niche, so a talent that makes them reset on dot damage ticks (the more dots / the higher chance) would be incredibly cool.
Just food for thought.
I do really like this design, but out of curiosity, will this involve any sort of actual ranged weapons, or will it all come from their little crossbow?
I know a lot of people would love if survival hunters could gain the ability to use a ranged weapon transmog alongside their melee one (and also dual wield :P).
I’m a little saddened by this because these higher Steady Focus values were making the gameplay feel better (who knew more haste is more fun) but also was more of an incentive to properly maintain uptime. At this point on live it’s heavily disfavored by most of the population, even high end players, due to the slim margins with its competition of Streamline and less thinking required to use. Obviously its place in the tree makes that point invalid since it’s not directly competing with Streamline anymore and is basically baseline if you expect to reach Trueshot unless you’re crossing over from a cleave build, but I still think the spec could use a stronger Steady Focus to help as a form of skill expression and improve how fluid it plays.
I feel like compromising another talent point to get back to the higher value wouldn’t be terrible if we had to take that hit. 3 point nodes haven’t won much favor from people but in this one case I think it’d be the most appropriate use of it. If you look at our spec overall Steady Focus is pretty much the only mechanic we still have that isn’t just one of the common generic mechanics found in any class optimized purely by pressing a button on cooldown, using the button that’s lighting up for free/more dmg, or refreshing a dot, so loading value into it while requiring more of the talent budget seems ok to me. Giving it more of a reward when optimized would make if feel like much less of a “chore” which is what it suffers from today for most people.
Aw shoot. Well thank you for clarifying <3
I think it goes without saying, but the amount of communication you have given all of us hunters is better than any class has had in years, so thank you for that!
There’s a lot to dig into here, and I have a few questions about some of the changes:
- Will the new Avoidance node still be locked behind Improved Mend Pet only? It would be nice to have a link from Rejuvenating Winds.
- Improved Exhilaration being baseline is a huge QoL change. I do not want to complain about additional defensive talents, but an additional HoT to Exhilaration does not fix what hunters are lacking defensively. I hope we see some damage reduction talents in the future (unless Binding Shackles works even if the target immunes the ability, i.e. you still get the DR when you use Intimidation on a raid boss).
- Hunter’s Knowledge and Focused Aim now boosting Rapid Fire is nice, but this even further exacerbates the issue that almost all of the talents in the top 1/3rd of the tree are mandatory.
- I am very confused on what the intended use of Bombardment is. Obviously Multi-Shot is not an ability that is pressed in any single target scenario and we would not spend a talent point on it - is this % buff intended to be enough where we use it on a single target? If that is the case, it is going to need to do significantly more than a single Arcane Shot to make this worth it. I think this talent would be much more interesting if it also gave Trick Shots. It would then have synergy with Razor Fragments, allowing you to get benefit on single target encounters.
- Moving Deathblow is a great idea since it synergizes with Razor Fragments. I really think the team needs to look at the balance of Deathblow - as it stands, at 10% it will provide a fraction of the amount of extra Kill Shots compared to Flayed Shot. Since Aimed Shot charges are capped, this value is likely going to need to be a lot higher to make Deathblow and Razor Fragments worth the pick.
- The changes to Razor Fragments and Explosive Ricochet are perfect. You brought down the power of Explosive Ricochet while buffing Razor Fragments.
- The Bursting Shot & Quick Load changes by themselves made by day.
- Have not been able to digest all of the Survival changes, but I love Ruthless Marauder.
The 7/15% that is on the alpha right now is just a data error on our end, there was not a goal of doubling the value of the talent from Shadowlands to Dragonflight.
Steady Focus also should hopefully feel less mandatory as a path towards Trueshot with the upcoming layout changes.
Thanks a bunch for the information! Super exciting times.
At any rate, do you know if the intention is that Binding Shackles needs a successful CC to apply the Damage Reduction or does it work if the target(s) is immune to CC? Could you Intimidate a boss to receive the damage reduction?
Otherwise, looking forward to see how this pans out! It’d be great to have a more flexible/usable defensive.
Salvo has been renamed to Bombardment and redesigned - Arcane Shots increases the damage of your next Multi-Shot by X%, stacking up to 4 times.
Thoughts: I would rather have Arcane Shots stack up a buff to make our Rapid Fire or Aimed Shot do more % dmg instead of our next Multi-Shot. Multi-shot is more-or-less just a mandatory filler MM uses to trigger Trick Shots. I get more excited about the idea of building up for a more powerful Aimed Shot or a more powerful Rapid Fire.
Any plans to change the layout of the bottom half of the BM Tree? No matter how good the Dire Pack node is, it feels like we’re forced to go on the right side of the tree due to how good the Aspect of the Wild + Barbed Wrath nodes are in comparison to Bloodshed+Stomp.
I would really like to see Stomp take the place of the Sharp Barbs talent due to how lackluster it is (perhaps the new talent could be placed where stomp currently is?) and the layout of the bottom tree change so that anyone can take Barbed Wrath (even without Aspect of the Wild)
Any chance that marksman or BM get access to mending bandages at some point? I miss trapping and bandaging up.
This seems like a confusing but interesting combination of talents and seems to be intended for use when there are waves of adds coming in to give us a damage boost. Is this correct, or is the intention to be used in other target counts?
Similar questions to Podh about these changes, but also want to suggest a possible node for the Resilience of the Hunter conduit that would decrease our damage taken briefly upon use of Feign Death.
Ok, that’s great. How about bringing dual wielding back?
I’m glad you listened to the feedback that replacing the Kill Shot AoE talent with Pouch would be good. Curious to try it out when it’s out.
I know some cough people hated me for pressing this subject, but thank you. I definitely am excited to test these changes. It’s not as good as having Sting early in the Survival Tree, but assuming the proc chance is decent, it means it’s still part of our damage, which is the important part.
The point pruning also means we can likely grab Wildfire Bomb in our single target situations now and not miss out on important single target skills on the right/middle side of the tree - effectively giving us a 3rd (or 4th if we use Flanking Strike) skill for ST.
I really wish you guys would give us a way to generate focus that doesn’t involve a pet. From what I’ve seen pretty much everywhere I’ve gone, one of the biggest Survival gripes is our focus generation is entirely reliant on pet AI. If your pet decides to run off or gets killed, your damage essentially halts completely. Even Beast Mastery, the pet spec, can still do damage without their pet, (albeit not nearly as much), because their focus gen is Barbed Shot. Ours is directly tied to our pet.
I’m not sure exactly what you could do, but just food for thought. Having our focus regen tied entirely to a pet is bad feeling.
Even something like “Lone Hunter - When your pet is dead, dismissed, or not within 10/20 yards, you generate X focus per second.” or something.
I actually posted about this a couple weeks ago in I think General Discussion? Re-adding Flayed Shot for Survival, but named Lacerate, would fit the class, and bring back one of the original Survival skills for us.
And it would fill the weird gap the first tier of right side of the survival tree has - in that unlike most specs, that side only gives us harpoon bonuses, no damage stuff. (Like how MM gets Rapid Fire on the left side and Chimaera on the right, or BM gets Cobra Shot on the right and Animal Companion/1 more barbed charge on the left)
I love melee Survival - I’ve been very open about that. However, I can’t help but wonder that in a system you guys designed all about player choice and customizing how you play your character, why can’t we opt into a ranged build if we want? Like, is there an actual answer you guys have as to why you don’t want that?
All that said - if it’s staying a strictly melee spec, can we get an option in the barber shop/transmog menu to customize the ranged weapon we pull out to shoot ranged attacks? Pulling out a tiny MoP-style Crossbow is weird.
Even glyphs that alter it to have different themes of existing models would be appreciated. Hell, even having it be racially themed would be better than a random MoP crossbow. Lol.
Also, this. You guys brought back 2h Frost, 2h Windwalker, DW Brewmaster, and SMF Warrior in Shadowlands.
Why did you guys not bring back Dual Wield hunters? We still retain the ability to dual wield.
Hey, I saw someone else post this earlier but I wanted to emphasize that hunters are going to be really squishy going into Dragonflight if they don’t get something to make up for losing marksman’s advantage and resilience of the hunter - these two conduits were very OP and hunter was already considered squishy even with them when compared to other classes in M+ (rogue/monk/mage/warlock/etc). A few points of avoidance will most likely not be enough to save this.
Also wanted to point out what I perceive to be a flaw in the hunter left side talent tree. There are two nodes that give DPS (crit chance and agility) that are gated behind situational utility tools (binding shackles and improved mend pet). Since these two nodes only compete with options that don’t give DPS throughput, it’s virtually guaranteed that they will be selected - I don’t have a problem with that, but it seems awkward that mend pet and binding shackles in particular are piggybacked in. My suggestion would be to pay special attention to nodes (especially on the overall class tree) that give DPS throughput and not have any of them be gated behind a specific utility choice - they should be easy to access no matter what path you take.
The agility one is going away. Not sure about the crit one though