Feedback: Hunters

This is the goal. It may not be there with current numbers, but these 3 points (yes, they are still 3 total points, Windrunner’s Guidance is 1-point again), is that this should be competitive. Maybe it needs to be from Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire. Maybe Arcane Shot/Chimaera shot can also cause it. There’s danger in lumping too much extra damage to Aimed Shot for PvP reasons - hypothetical numbers, if Aimed Shot normally does 1000 damage, but via procs can sometimes do 2500 damage, the damage swing is super high. A lot of bonuses were pulled out of Aimed Shot in BFA/Shadowlands and just lumped into Aimed Shot damage to try to keep its damage consistently strong.

Bulletstorm’s design is currently a buff that stacks up to 10, but doesn’t refresh duration as you gain stacks. It lets you get some big Multi-Shots in, but in a cyclical fashion.

There’s some potential tree restructure that has to happen if this is the case, because Rapid Fire is technically optional, and having a line of things coming off of rapid fire and not connecting anywhere else limits how you can move your points around the tree. That isn’t to say this isn’t possible, just that it’s more involved than just putting a node somewhere that buffs only Rapid Fire.

There are no plans to redesign any of the Mastery effects for Hunters.


Also still my biggest hope in our whole tree, one of the choices is guaranteed to be a dead pick just depending on a sim.


appreciate the near immediate response! looking forward to what you have cooking for future SV tweaks to the tree. it’s almost perfect!


Is there any possibility Exhilaration could be removed from the GCD? Similar abilities, like Renewal and Desperate Prayer, are off the GCD. Is the reason it’s on the GCD because it heals your pet as well? Lone Wolf MM hunters don’t even use a pet.


I should clarify my post above a bit more.

PvP is a concern for abilities that sometimes deal big damage or heal lot. This is true for the game as a whole. We have tools available to change things in PvP compared to PvE. While these tools obviously work, it’s not intuitive that Aimed Shot does 1000 damage against a kobold, and 500 damage against a player because of a hidden multiplier.

There are also PvE concerns of your abilities swinging in damage a lot. Partly for tuning reasons, but also for how the game feels. Again using hypothetical numbers, if Aimed Shot does 1000 damage, but sometimes 2500, your damage variance from each boss attempt, or on that difficult M+ pack, or in the Mage Tower challenges, or wherever, is very unstable. Sometimes it’s OK for your damage to be very swingy, some specs inherently have a lot of randomness in how they play and that’s by design. Critical strikes are already a thing that exist that changes your damage a lot, but you don’t often pull a boss and think “oh, my aimed shot didn’t crit, lets reset and try again”. That’s obviously an extreme example, but if there’s so much randomness tied to one ability’s damage, and that ability is a significant part of your total throughput, maybe it’s a problem we should try to address.


Totally understood. My tree would have had Rapid Fire as a more “mandatory” ability but the current structure of this tree does not allow for that. Not that I think Rapid Fire needs to be mandatory, but somehow incorporating more power into the spell would make it more enticing overall. Agree that trying to incorporate a capstone tied to Rapid Fire would pretty much require an overhaul, which may cause more problems than it would solve.

The problem with this is that it essentially makes Rapid Fire mandatory, whereas you want it to be “technically” optional. Similarly with Hunter’s Knowledge, Focused Aim, and Deathblow - if I take those talents, why would I also not take Rapid Fire? I think making talents affect both abilities limits the overall build variety as those talents tend to become too powerful.


If they only buff Aimed Shot, does that make Rapid Fire less desirable because it has fewer modifiers than Aimed Shot?


Hence my suggestion for more talents that buff Rapid Fire specifically (In The Rhythm, 1 extra focus per hit, etc.). I would guess one or the other would suffice, but I believe talents that buff both would lead to less build variety. Maybe that’s a poor assumption though.


I just want to point out Druids had a buff exactly for this for their Arcanic Pulsar legendary, I begged for something similar during ptr for our 4-set while doing an obscene amount of testing to make just such a tracker and find the obscure behaviors of it. I think with just the slightest dev attention the mechanic could be much more enjoyable, since the biggest “problem” with it right now is its interaction with Unblinking Vigil, which won’t be a thing anymore.

The talent just feels too niche to be used as described right now. It seems like being able to save specifically for add spawns is a null point when we’d be taking Volley and saving it for that anyway for burst cleave, rendering that useless unless it’s an extended add spawn, in which case the automatic cleave should be perfectly suitable and also wouldn’t require us to also talent into Multi-Shot for a 2-target situation where we’d ideally already be taking Chimaera shot.


I did not intend my question to be combative if it came off that way, it was just a question of how things look at a glance. For players who don’t rely on 3rd party sites or high end theorycrafting, if they look at the tree and see 5 things that only buff Aimed Shot, and Rapid Fire off to the side, Rapid Fire probably looks like a much less desirable button. When these 5 things buff both Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire, maybe it’s a good push in the right direction that Rapid Fire is an important button you should get, and these bonuses also work on that ability so you feel like you’re getting full value from them.

Neither direction is objectively correct or incorrect.


Nimox, What I see Podh saying here - and Podh please correct me if I am wrong - is that there are so many talents right now that affect aimed shot, and even the current Shadowlands damage profile reflects this, that Aimed shot is the heavy majority of our damage, and rapid fire is used to reduce the cast time of aimed shot, not necessarily to be a big source of damage. EDIT: I think adding Rapid Fire to some of the aimed shot talents has helped this, but just adding damage doesn’t always feel right, if more utility to amplify the rest of our kit is also an option

Perhaps what Podh is asking about is providing talents (Under rapid fire) that give hunters another reason to want to use the button, if they have chosen to spec into it, and to that, I would completely agree.


I agree it helps incentivize getting rapid fire, but in the specific case of Focused Aim, it is on the complete opposite side of the tree from Rapid Fire, so if Rapid Fire isn’t chosen, taking this talent would make it feel like we’re only getting half of the supposed value out of it.


Oh no worries at all, my extra periods weren’t intentional either. Stuck in the wage cage, so I very much look forward to your posts on Friday and am obviously passionate about hunter design.

This makes sense to me, as long as the talents that are not directly affecting Aimed Shot/Raid Fire (fortunately, there are not a ton, but think Wailing Arrow/Killing Blow/Salvo) are powerful enough or have a niche such that we will still select them in certain situations.


Thanks for the communication. I’m excited for the next build and to finally use the new talents.


Is there any way for barrage to get looked at? I don’t think many people will keep using this spell if it stays like this. Maybe have its range limited by your target? Like a cross between rapid fire and multishot?


I don’t think that improves it, that’s the appeal of Barrage, this was just pure mis-use of it. The spread and range of Barrage would be the appeal, if it ever had a use-case, to be taken over Explosive anyway. If that’s taken away it’s just a pure throughput choice and there will be one winner always with nothing to validate the other, which would be a very boring node.


I’m okay with not redesigning it as I’m sure y’all are busy with 13 classes, but can I please request that if you aren’t going to redesign Survival’s mastery - could you perhaps tune it better in Dragonflight?

Right now, Mastery is practically a dps loss to grab, as it is just so undertuned. Even Wowhead’s guide writer emphasizes this with:

I got a 291 neck from the weekly on live, however, that’s my Unity Slot, so I simmed every single slot I have a 252ish piece in with a 291 unity and the neck, and the closest “upgrade” was still a 300 dps loss, because the neck I got is almost all mastery. (Noble’s Birthstone Pendant)

Mastery is so bad that upgrading another slot of armor 40 ilvls isn’t an upgrade. (And these are slots that have agility, to give you an idea)

EDIT: To give you an idea, doing the same sim as Marksman, it found a 400-500 dps upgrade for me by switching Unity to Waist and equipping the necklace. Which is what I would expect from upgrading an item 40 ilvls. Not a 300 dps loss. :stuck_out_tongue:

Very few classes have an issue that a stat is so bad you avoid it even if it means putting on a lower piece. (I THINK Havoc has the same issue with Mastery, but it’s been a while since I looked?)


Hello Everyone,

I am still worried about the top section of the Marksman Hunter Spec tree and did a little thought experiment that I wanted to share.

The problems with the top section of the Marksman Tree, in my opinion, are:

  • It is very bloated, many builds right now feel like you are spending a very large number of points at the top of the tree.
  • Rapid Fire is so far out of the way that it eats up a bunch of points to get something so core to our gameplay
  • Lone Wolf currently locks us out of the entire left hand side of the class tree, is out of the way, and is always the correct choice which makes it not really a choice.

I drew up a very quick rough draft of some of the things I’ve seen in other talent trees that inspired me related to how our talent tree could look. I understand that this likely won’t happen and that’s ok.

There are some problems here:

  • There are much less talent points in total at the top and takes some nodes out of sections further down the tree that would need to be replaced
  • This pulls a lot of power up higher up into the tree which could be problematic from a leveling standpoint as it would mess with power gains as you level

Thank you for reading.


Hope everyone here had a smooth weekend! Here are some quick fire feedbacks I hope is looked at in the next few builds. I hope everyone reading this weighs in what you think as well. This is from the PoV of a Survival main.

General Hunter Tree

  • Improved Traps is not very exciting at all. Investing two whole points to get 5 seconds of CD on traps is a bit of a bummer especially that deep into the tree.
  • Binding Shackles is also a bit of a dull-talent that I feel obligated to take to to get access to Beast Master → Apex Predator. It feels like a bit of an odd link right there to me personally.
  • There seems to be a lack of passive damage modifiers on the tree for the Lone Wolf MM players out there. SV/BM has access to things like Beast Master and Improved Kill Command. Many players are concerned about the abundance of active damage abilities (your Steel Traps, Stampede/Death Chakram, Explosive Shot/Barrage) and lack of passive-yet-exciting talents (Apex Predator/Killer Instinct)
  • Leading off that last point, Lone Wolf MM players are almost definitely going to be forced to play with NtA and Steel Trap. Is it too late for these to be replaced? Many don’t really like this playstyle and personally after playing with it in previous expansions it gets very old very fast.

Survival Hunter Tree

  • Viper’s Venom, as a 2 point talent, gives 30% to proc a Serpent Sting. This is going to be more than enough to maintain SS easily. Much like Marksmanship’s Serpentstalker’s Trickery, this would make more sense to be brought to 1 point (currently 15%) and perhaps slightly buffed.
  • Spear Focus (increase Mongoose Bite by 5/10%) is extremely similar to Sweeping Spear (increase Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite and Carve/Butchery damage by 5/10%). Perhaps the former could be reworked into something more unique/exciting to talent into

I’m going to leave any extensive MM Hunter feedback until we can test the talents out with all the bug fixes upcoming, but I wanted to reiterate that I think Precise Shots, Improved Arcane Shot, Streamline, and Hunter’s Knowledge should be 1 point talents. This would allow further passive rotation manipulating options to be added lower in the tree.

If this isn’t an option, I want to ask if it’s intended to be able to build without Precise Shots? Or does the team consider Precise Shots to be completely core to the way MM plays?