Feedback: Hunters

Totally agree, I think that adding the same effect to the kill shot ricochet’s (chance to apply razor fragments) would be more in line with explosive ricochet. Because I do agree that Explosive is MUCH better than Killer.

You took the words right off my keyboard.

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Volatile Bomb needs to be changed since Serpent Sting is now optional. If you don’t talent into it, this bomb has literally no effect.

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I mean, it still does damage. It just doesn’t proc a volatile reaction or refresh the SS dot. It’s just the same on live/if talented if you don’t have the DoT up.

Deadly Duo doesn’t function at all if you don’t take the Predator talent in that same vein and those talents are both in Survival’s tree.

think a stated intention of this new system is the “freedom” to make builds that some could consider suboptimal or lack synergy or conversely find synergy in the class tree to match your spec tree.

Yes, please do this. I would be fine with never having Bursting Shot or its upgrade on my bars, it feels like a waste to point into.

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I would disagree on Bursting Shot being a waste. I use it all the time for Sanguine weeks in M+.

I do agree that I’d prefer it swap places with another talent.

In the Marksmanship tree, I think above the 8 point threshold we have a few too many 2 point talents. It would open up build diversity to have two or three of Improved Arcane Shot, Precise Shots, Careful Aim, Bullseye, and Hunter’s Knowledge dropped down to 1 point selections.

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This is an interesting point of discussion. Cooldowns that are significant power swings, such as Combustion, often define your style of play. You likely need to combo in as many effects as possible to skyrocket up your damage in a short timeframe. Whether or not you get lucky with procs and whatever else in that window dictates a lot about your performance over the fight as a whole. You also start feeling much less effective outside of these damage windows, as you peak very high, and then go down into a lower state of throughput until the cooldown is available again.

Not every cooldown needs to be a significant swing. If Trueshot is made stronger, your average damage outside of Trueshot will likely go down to compensate. Should Trueshot be a big damage swing cooldown like Combustion? The current thought is no.

The points made about Precise Shots during the Trueshot window are valid feedback and is something we could work on to make better, but at the same time we’re also currently OK if some things like Precise Shot stacks are “wasted” during this window. Trueshot makes your gameplay feel significantly different while it is active, which is great. If the cooldown was changed to +20% critical strike chance, it remains effective and a good burst window, but doesn’t feel like you’re doing anything special other than getting a few more critical hits. That’s not to say that secondary stats or a percent critical strike buff are bad, it’s just different.

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Speaking of cooldown and design intention, any chance you could clarify is Coordinated Assault is staying the 20% damage amp with 25% increased Flanker’s Advantage chance?

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I agree that Trueshot does not need to be as impactful as other major cooldowns assuming damage outside of that window is higher to compensate. I somewhat agree that it changes your playstyle - you are pressing Aimed Shot & Rapid Fire more as opposed to casting Precise Shots buffed Arcane Shots. However, you still have to cast Steady Shot and that is a huge buzzkill during your major cooldown.

If Trueshot is supposed to drastically alter your gameplay, why not make Rapid Fire actually restore a significant amount of Focus? There have been multiple patches where Rapid Fire has been partly ignored or de-prioritized in the rotation, largely because its combination of damage + focus generation is too little. It could do practically zero damage, but if it filled your focus bar all the way up, it would “feel” better to press and be a larger source of focus generation for the spec (currently, something absurd like 70% of MMs focus generation is passive).

If Rapid Fire is left alone, perhaps bring back the old Master Marksman (Aimed Shot reduces the cost of next Arcane Shot or Multi Shot by 100%). You might still “waste” Precise Shots procs, but you would be able to cast more Arcane Shots during your Trueshot as opposed to having to cast multiple Steady Shots to regain focus.

“Wasting” Precise Shots procs is fine as well, but it leads to an anti-synergy with Calling the Shots, which is required to take the capstone choice node underneath (the only capstone that MM has with any meaningful affect on a single target). To exacerbate that problem, Calling the Shots has been an undesirable talent for 2 entire expansions now because there’s no reason to spend talent points on reducing the cooldown of Trueshot if it does not provide a significant gain. Edit Calling the Shots would not have this problem if it just reduced the cooldown of Trueshot based on overall focus spent (similar to the MM 2pc set bonus from Nighthold)

I fear these Trueshot focused talents will be altogether ignored, and a proper single target MM build will not choose any Capstone talent. I truly believe re-introducing Rapid Killing would be a positive for the spec, instead of either Unerring Vision (do we really need another talent that gives critical strike chance?) or Eagletalon’s True Focus. It could be nerfed from the 50% crit damage it was in Legion and still be a powerful talent. It has great synergy with Bullseye, and allows Trueshot to be a major cooldown that provides extra oomph sub-20%.

37 Likes

Most people are uneasy about this sentiment due to how much of our recent competitive success depended on specific damage profiles provided by Wild Spirits. Without raid utility, strong defensives, high sustained damage or capability for spread target cleave, Hunter competitiveness in raids across all of Shadowlands has hinged on high burst dmg, particularly tightly clumped aoe and especially 1-4 target count cleave after the introduction of Antlers. Losing what we’ve relied on for most of the expansion puts us back in a rut where our competitive appeal lives or dies by class utility which we don’t have or raw damage tuning numbers which is never a guarantee unless you’re a Warlock.

Understandably this could be solved in different ways, notably encounter design or improving our utility and defensive kit as mentioned already, so I don’t think Trueshot power level is the only avenue to address what we worry about, and I doubt any of us want to fall to the other extreme of current Balance Druid damage profiles either. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with how a weaker Trushot itself would feel either, current Venthyr MM feels pretty enjoyable when encounters allow for it.

Regardless we are still looking for that something to make us feel safer in terms of being brought to encounters considering what we are losing.

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Also on the subject of extremely important feedback, could there be a Glyph to turn Survival’s little crossbow used for SS/KS into a little pistol a la Outlaw Rogue? :relieved:

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Improved Arcane Shot doesn’t do anything if you pick the Chimera Shot talent.
Chimera Shot is 20 base focus cost and the focus cost reduction from Improved Arcane Shot doesn’t apply to Chimera Shot.

Trueshot is now locked behind Steady Focus or Salvo, both of which are useless for PvP but Trueshot is mandatory for PvP.

Marksmanship’s Legacy of the Windrunner’s proc rate is abysmally low, making it an extremely underwhelming talent along with Windrunner’s Guidance.

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Legacy of the Windrunner has a 15% proc chance according to the spell data, although it is currently not working on Alpha (similar to how many other new/returning abilities & talents are not yet functioning).

I would agree that this is too low, considering it is the same proc chance that the ability had in Legion. We casted significantly more Aimed Shots back then as it was not limited to 2 charges.

14 Likes

I was really hoping that mending bandages found its way to the hunter class tree. It seems like most of our class talents are either MM centric or BM centric. I’d love to be able to get a more reliable heal going down a survival branch.

Why does survival get all the fun we MM hunters hurt too. Even more so with the loss of covenants and craven stratagem.

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That being said, is it possible to somewhat consolidate some of them ?

Looking at say single target builds as bm and using this as a baseline :

We have :
2 min - Stampede
2 min - Aspect of the Wild (fairly weak fwiw)
2 min - Call of the Wild
1 min - Bloodshed
1 min - Murder of Crows
? min - Bestial Wrath

It feels like almost all of those cooldowns are fairly weak on their own plus the gcd comes into play.

Personally I’d rather see some of them combined or function as an upgrade of one another, rather than be separate buttons.

(This is also making an effort of not taking Steel Trap / Chakrams / Explosive Shot / Barrage which can be viewed as a pseudo-cd and viewing Dire Beast as purely rotational)

Now there could be an argument for dropping some of the cooldowns for the purpose of passive damage amps, however outside of significant change in tuning design, most of those are somewhat moot (Barbed Shot damage contribution is historically not a big part of damage combined with not scaling off mastery, same can be said for kill shot hooks)

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This is my concern for hunter too. From a PvE perspective, what does hunter bring that no other class brings? What kinds of encounters, when you look at them, make you think “Wow, we could really use a couple hunters to counter this mechanic”? I’m not sad to see it go, but Wild Spirits was a tool that could provoke that reaction.

Does every class/spec need a unique tool or reason to be brought? I don’t know, I’m not a game designer. Realistically, hunter will be brought to raid even without a unique tool if it’s generally okay at everything and doesn’t just fall over due to a lack of defensives. However, I think it’d be cool if each class/spec did have a compelling reason to be brought depending on the encounter, and if, at a specialization level, the debate isn’t as simple as “BM does more ST damage and MM does more AOE damage”.

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Couple points of feedback so far, which it looks like are potentially being addressed in the case of Survival Hunters.

It was mentioned that there’s awareness to too many big investment talents and this will be adjusted. Will this also include having multiple talents that also do effectively the same thing too? We have two different talents to increase raptor strike/mongoose damage, except one also is a flat wildfire bomb damage increase (and there’s also another flag wildfire bomb increase talent).
We can spend 5 points for 25% increased raptor strike damage which feels very weird.

Again, I understand this will likely be adjusted but I want to point out that some of these flat damage increase talents seem like they can be too significant where the abilities may feel too weak without the talent or too strong with them (if they’re base damage is fine outside the talent). Feels like this can lead to some tuning difficulties in the future. That was mostly a larger concern I had since the investment also means you don’t really get any truly interesting choices which the overall Survival tree feels lacking in.

For the overall class talent tree, personally I think it looks pretty good on the majority of the top rows. Well done, I like the choices available. My gripe comes down to the final few tiers. In particular, Explosive Shot, Charkrams vs Death Chakrams, any of the serpent sting related talents all don’t come across as some interesting playstyle choices, instead you just pick whichever is tuned better. They don’t necessarily have cohesion with the rest of your toolkit minus how latent/vipers venom have SS synergy. Just extra damage buttons and you’d choose whichever just does more damage. I think something different needs to be looked at here.

In regards to alpha predator and steel trap, well at least those are things I might potentially want to take as a SV hunter for extra focus regen (good for mongoose bite builds), or in the case of steel trap while it isn’t a super flashy ability, it at least is something I would consider taking for its utility in PvP depending on the matchup. Of course in regards to PvE steel trap runs into the same issue as I stated previously with the other final tier talents, where you just pick the one that does the most damage based on tuning.

My largest concern is in a world where the final rows are all tuned equally, I don’t think I would even be able to notice the difference between any of them as a compelling gameplay choice, you’d just use them when available regardless and I wouldn’t feel like anything special has happened. That to me seems like it’s missing the mark on your goal for talents that you’ve worked to achieve on other classes, instead of me feeling like “Wow, all these options are really crazy and I don’t know which to pick” instead it’s “These options all seem so trivial that I can’t actually tell if it matters which one I choose”.

32 Likes

Am I misreading this here? Freezing trap will clear all dot effects so I do not quite understand what you mean by this.

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The next build to alpha will have some pretty substantial changes for the hunter talent trees. Many talent nodes have had their position shuffled around, as well as connections, so this won’t be an exact list of what specific talent node moved to what new position and what it connects to. Some of this may be redundant information with previous posts:

Baseline Changes:

  • Mend Pet has been bumped up from 35% of Pet’s HP over its duration, to 50% of pet’s HP.

Class Tree:

  • The placeholder Agility % node has been replaced with an Avoidance node.
  • Improved Exhilaration (the pet healing) is now part of the baseline Exhilaration ability. This has been replaced with Rejuvenating Winds.
  • Viper’s Venom in the choice node after Serpent Sting has been replaced with Hydra’s Bite.
  • Binding Shackles is planned to work with any combination of Scatter Shot, Explosive Trap, Binding Shot, and Intimidation. This should make sense with the new tree layout.

Beast Mastery

  • Dire Pack has been redesigned. Every X Dire Beasts summoned now resets the cooldown of Kill Command, and reduces the cooldown and Focus Cost of Kill Command for a duration.
  • New talent added that increases the duration and damage of any Dire Beast summon.

Marksmanship:

  • Steady Focus values lowered to 4/8%, rather than 7/15%.
  • Hunter’s Knowledge and Focused Aim now boost Rapid Fire damage and crit chance in addition to Aimed Shot.
  • Salvo has been renamed to Bombardment and redesigned - Arcane Shots increases the damage of your next Multi-Shot by X%, stacking up to 4 times.
  • Explosive Ricochet renamed to Salvo, and design adjusted. Multi-Shot now also shoots Explosive Shot at up to 2 targets hit. This can only occur once every 45 sec.
  • Killer Ricochet renamed and redesigned, is now Razor Fragments - When Trick Shots fades or is consumed, your next Kill Shot does X% more damage, and causes up to 5 targets to bleed for Y% of the damage dealt over 6 sec. This node comes right after Deathblow , which may be in a different position in the tree now.
  • Bursting Shot and Quick Load are no longer a dependency for any talent node on the tree.

Survival

  • Terms of Engagement and Improved Harpoon talents have been combined and now only requires 1 talent point total.
  • Several abilities reduced to 1 or 2 total points, down from 2 or 3 total points.
  • Precision Removed
  • Frenzy Strikes now also applies its cooldown reduction to Flanking Strike.
    • Note: there’s an issue where this talent will incorrectly be able to be obtained by a prior node without the Butchery/Carve node, this connection will be removed in a future update.
  • Wildfire Infusions - Volatile Bomb has been adjusted because Serpent Sting is no longer a baseline, guaranteed to have ability. This bomb will continue to deal bonus damage to a target affected by Serpent Sting, and will also apply Serpent Sting to some number of targets it hits.
  • Viper’s Venom is now in the survival talent tree with a redesign. Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite have a chance to apply Serpent Sting to your target.
  • New Talent - Ranger - Increases the damage of Steady Shot, Kill Shot, Explosive Shot, and Serpent Sting.
  • New Talent - Intense Focus - increases focus generated by Kill Command
  • New Talent - Ruthless Marauder - Fury of the Eagle has a 15% increased critical strike chance against targets below 20% health, and Fury of the Eagle critical strikes reduce the cooldown of Wildfire Bomb and Flanking Strike by 0.5 sec.
    • The critical strike chance and cooldown reduction values go up per rank, the 20% HP threshold does not change.

This is a lot to parse, and things above are not final. Thanks for the discussions so far, we appreciate it.

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nimox more like ni-rocks, ty for being you

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I don’t know what this means exactly but I HAD to post and say YYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSS

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