Feedback: Hunters

Marksman Feedback
The capstone talent for Legacy of the Windrunners, Windrunners Guidance, feels horrible to spec into especially the second point.

Being this far down the tree, the second point in this talent feels much more expensive than the first and having only 1 of 2 points selected in your final talent build makes the talent not feel like a true capstone.

14 Likes

So after looking at more and more of ther spec/class trees and looking back at BM :
While I think that the tree in functional and does work, I also feel like there’s a bit too much commitment in terms of points to get back to what we already have as is.

So while some of the other classes are getting a lot of “shiny” we’re very limited in that.
One of the examples is how many points we need to spend to currently get back to current Bestial Wrath functionality :

If we look at the tree overall using a build that’s mostly trying to maintain the current playstyle (and realistically I assume will be the current meta at least in terms of design/utility) :

We can see that we’re getting 3 new abilities (2 of them are passive, and 1 is only AoE)
We’re missing out on 1 current existing baseline abilities (wild call), in large part due to spending 10 of 30 points only to try and get baseline non talents abilities, which are ± required for spec to function.

As an example - Barbed wrath is one of the main mechanics of the spec, but it’s a 2 talent point at the bottom of the tree. Same with the Wild Call to some extend, since without it :

  1. the spec is 100% deterministic and you would be going back to being able to have a timed macro performing entire rotation
  2. Having haste plateaue / spikes where you would be getting guaranteed ability to maintain 3 stacks Frenzy/Thrill and sync of ur BW cooldown with mechanics / cooldowns.
  3. Also drastically hurts our crit scaling, which has been historically favored stat.

Overall, I don’t want to calculate how many total nodes we have / how many 2-3 point talent choices we have, since those are mostly meaningless metrics, a lot of current passives could be baked into the baseline version of their abilities, freeing up room for new nodes on our tree and it would feel great with the same number of nodes.

That being said, some of the “merges” that I would prefer to see :

  1. Kindred and Pack, both thematically are similar.
  2. Wild call and barbed shot. It feels like too much of a hook to completely ignore.
  3. Barbed Wrath and Bestial Wrath. It’s another thing that feels crucial for BM identity and would probably be too much of a trap to play without it.

This would free up 3 talent node spots on the tree and some points that would actually let us play with a few more new abilities.

On the topic of Barbed Wrath, I think it currently working on AotW (but not Call of the Wild) is a bit problematic as it’s once again leading us to new desync issues.

And I still believe that those cooldowns should be merged in, currently we have too many CDs :

  1. Aspect of the Wild
  2. Call of the Wild
  3. Bloodshed / Murder of Crows
  4. Stampede
  5. Bestial Wrath

(I’m going to assume that we are not running steel trap / Explosive shot / Dire Beast / Wailing Arrow, but theoretically we could be running 2-3 of those in addition to current ones)

While BW is not a true CD, for the purpose of “burst”, i’d still categorize it as such, and in situations like say Sludgefist charge, I don’t want to be spending ± 5 globals only buffing myself for the damage purposes.

Due to this I’d suggest that it gets changed into a passive that simply upgrades AotW.
I also think it would be interesting to have it as a choice node between being a passive ability that modifies aotw and having a CDR ability (Similar to current Ferocious appetite conduit at say 3.5-4 sec strength) where you can pick between stronger 2 more, or more frequent 1 min one.

21 Likes

Now from my personal PoV the bottom left side of the tree is ± DoA (outside of ridiculous tuning) as it is.

So I’d like to suggest a few things :

  1. Combine Dire Command + Dire Pack
    They are both working around Kill Command + Dire Beasts but as it stands right now, it feels fairly underwhelming

  2. Keep Pack Resilience but also add that every 4/2 Barbed Shots are guaranteed to summon a dire beast (± numbers for tuning, so it’s not too frequent, but you have a way to force out a 2nd dire beast in addition to the talent version)

  3. Now that we’ve re-organized those 3 talents into 2 (I can also see alternative, where the current pack resilience gets merged with dire pack, and Dire Command gets the barbed shot synergy) we have a room for a new Capstone → Titan’s Thunder . Functioning same as it did in legion and working with your dire beasts + your main pets.

  4. This is a bit unconnected to the previous 3 points, but I feel like Wailing Arrow is a very weird choice for BM capstone. It feels like either MM talent or general Hunter Tree bottom capstone, especially since it doesn’t interact in any way with class identity of pets, and doesn’t even work with our mastery.
    As such I’d like to see it get updated with something closer to BM fantasy, the 2 easiest choices are Dire Beast: Hawk / Dire Beast: Basilisk (which also work out great as a choice talent)

This would give us the following talent flows :
Bottom left size - Zoo, similar to BM from Legion with multiple pets out, and giving you an ability to front load your burst at the cost of dropping frenzy later.

Center side - Around same as current playstyle, you focus on keeping frenzy at 3 stacks to never dip as low and still having BW on non 90 sec cd.

Left side - a lot more reactive procs with cooldown reductions/resets.

11 Likes

Now looking at survival, I’d say that majority of new tree actually looks cool

Looking at some lower in the tree talents one that stands out to me is :

I think the idea is great. However, if the shot is purely passive, it’s kind of a bit boring.
It might as well a flat ap% increase on kill command / next kill command after reset.

I would prefer it to become just a tiny bit more reactive :
When KC’s cooldown is reset, you have a % chance to get a Quick Shot buff, stacking up to 2-3(?) stacks.
Quick Shot buff lets you fire Arcane Shot without having a ranged weapon equipped, dealing % bonus damage with a reduced focus cost.

This gives us a reactive buff that lets us thematically do the same thing, but without it being passively consumed by normal rotation (unlike say Tip of the Spear)

5 Likes

To elaborate for anyone confused—

Spear Focus is a 2 point node that increase Mongoose Bite damage by 5/10%

Sweeping Spear is a 2 point node that increases Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite and Carve/Butchery damage by 5/10%.

It feels like Spear Focus should be differentiated a bit, even if it’s just a numerical buff, to make it a more exciting choice. After looking at the tree/using it more, I think while I would personally prefer a Flanking Strike interaction, that would be a bit odd due to the position of the talent.

What does everyone else feel w/r/t Spear Focus/Sweeping Spear?

4 Likes

Hello again Hunters,

This won’t be a specific list of everything that has changed, but some notes on changes coming to the next build.

Class Tree:

  • Some minor changes have been made to some node connections.
  • Lone Survivor’s cooldown reduction has been lowered from 60 to 30 seconds.
  • Death Chakram should work in non-Shadowlands zones, and should increase all damage taken rather than just Physical damage taken
  • Master Marksman should work with melee abilities as well.

Marksmanship

  • Lots of bug fixes.
  • Legacy of the Windrunners has changed into a 2-point node again, each point will add 3 wind arrows. Also any buffs to Aimed Shot now applies to these Wind Arrows.
    • To clarify the point about Legacy of the Windrunners gaining bonuses from Aimed Shot, this is any buffs to crit chance or damage to Aimed Shot. Trick Shots will not be sending Wind Arrows all over the place.
  • New talent in the bottom left area: Bulletstorm. Extra targets your Aimed Shot or Rapid Fires ricochet to from Trick Shots grants a stacking buff to your Multi-Shot damage.
  • Bombardment has changed to a 1 point node and is located right below Multi-Shot
    • There has been some discussion about how Bombardment should work, or perhaps that it should just work like the current 4-piece set bonus with alternate numbers. Tracking resources spent is difficult in the default UI, and most people feel it is necessary to get an addon to track how much more Focus they have to spend to get a Trick Shots effect.
    • With the current design of X Arcane/Chimaera shots required as opposed to Focus Spent, why require a Multi-Shot instead of just granting Trick Shots? Most of the purpose of this talent is to provide some limited options for Trick Shots when you don’t have 3+ targets to consistently gain Trick Shots. If the fight has one target most of the time, and occasionally some adds spawn, getting a buff that guarantees your next Multi-Shot to grant you a Trick Shots regardless of targets hit should grant you increased control over when you want to use the effect. The Bombardment buff currently lasts 2 minutes, so there is no rush to try to jam in some extra shots right as some adds spawn, you have time to prepare and use this.
  • Calling the Shots has had its design adjusted to grant cooldown reduction for Trueshot from Focus Spent, rather than require specific shots.

Beast Mastery and Survival have also had some bug fixes, but no notable design changes this week. That doesn’t mean things are final.

edit: To clarify the point about Legacy of the Windrunners gaining bonuses from Aimed Shot, this is any buffs to crit chance or damage to Aimed Shot. Trick Shots will not be sending Wind Arrows all over the place.

25 Likes

Happy Friday Nimox! Thank you for another post. Here’s some initial feedback:

A lot of the concern surrounding Legacy of the Windrunners and Windrunner’s Guidance is that the proc rate is the same as it was in Legion (15%). In Legion, we casted significantly more Aimed Shots since it did not have charges. Despite it being passive, I think it is very interesting for single target builds since it can quickly build Bullseye stacks, however I am worried that its current proc rate/damage is too weak to be viable. I hope the team looks at the proc rate or damage on the Wind Arrows such that it is a competitive choice in single target talent setups.

Absolutely love this. I will continue to be annoying and ask if there is any consideration to swap the place of this talent with Eagletalon’s True Focus. Even if that would result in a net nerf, I care more about having a choice node where I have to think about the type of content that I am doing before making my selection. As it stands, whatever provides more throughput will be the talent taken in all scenarios when looking at Unerring Vision and ETF. Having to make a decision between Unerring Vision and Calling the Shots allows MM hunters to choose between an extra powerful 2 minute Trueshot versus a less powerful but more frequent Trueshot.

The design decisions behind Bombardment and the new Bulletstorm are positive, and I am excited to try out Bulletstorm. While Multi-Shot does not currently do significant damage in AoE, it does not have a hard target cap and should make MM slightly more competitive in scenarios where there are more targets than Trick Shots allows for.

One of the things that would help MM build variety is leaning a little bit more into Rapid Fire and introducing additional talents that specifically buff Rapid Fire (as opposed to Rapid Fire and Aimed Shot). I think the return of the BfA azerite trait, In The Rhythm, adds a significant boost to the power of Rapid Fire and would be a fun talent. A new choice node talent to pair with Careful Aim (Rapid Fire or Aimed Shot damage increased under 20%) would be great choices as well, although I understand that’s probably more of a longshot.

15 Likes

Has there been any discussion about replacing Survival’s Mastery on your team? Many feel it’s pretty dull as far as masteries go— at least for us—it’s a more specific yet worse Versatility.

10 Likes

This is the goal. It may not be there with current numbers, but these 3 points (yes, they are still 3 total points, Windrunner’s Guidance is 1-point again), is that this should be competitive. Maybe it needs to be from Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire. Maybe Arcane Shot/Chimaera shot can also cause it. There’s danger in lumping too much extra damage to Aimed Shot for PvP reasons - hypothetical numbers, if Aimed Shot normally does 1000 damage, but via procs can sometimes do 2500 damage, the damage swing is super high. A lot of bonuses were pulled out of Aimed Shot in BFA/Shadowlands and just lumped into Aimed Shot damage to try to keep its damage consistently strong.

Bulletstorm’s design is currently a buff that stacks up to 10, but doesn’t refresh duration as you gain stacks. It lets you get some big Multi-Shots in, but in a cyclical fashion.

There’s some potential tree restructure that has to happen if this is the case, because Rapid Fire is technically optional, and having a line of things coming off of rapid fire and not connecting anywhere else limits how you can move your points around the tree. That isn’t to say this isn’t possible, just that it’s more involved than just putting a node somewhere that buffs only Rapid Fire.

There are no plans to redesign any of the Mastery effects for Hunters.

10 Likes

Also still my biggest hope in our whole tree, one of the choices is guaranteed to be a dead pick just depending on a sim.

2 Likes

appreciate the near immediate response! looking forward to what you have cooking for future SV tweaks to the tree. it’s almost perfect!

2 Likes

Is there any possibility Exhilaration could be removed from the GCD? Similar abilities, like Renewal and Desperate Prayer, are off the GCD. Is the reason it’s on the GCD because it heals your pet as well? Lone Wolf MM hunters don’t even use a pet.

5 Likes

I should clarify my post above a bit more.

PvP is a concern for abilities that sometimes deal big damage or heal lot. This is true for the game as a whole. We have tools available to change things in PvP compared to PvE. While these tools obviously work, it’s not intuitive that Aimed Shot does 1000 damage against a kobold, and 500 damage against a player because of a hidden multiplier.

There are also PvE concerns of your abilities swinging in damage a lot. Partly for tuning reasons, but also for how the game feels. Again using hypothetical numbers, if Aimed Shot does 1000 damage, but sometimes 2500, your damage variance from each boss attempt, or on that difficult M+ pack, or in the Mage Tower challenges, or wherever, is very unstable. Sometimes it’s OK for your damage to be very swingy, some specs inherently have a lot of randomness in how they play and that’s by design. Critical strikes are already a thing that exist that changes your damage a lot, but you don’t often pull a boss and think “oh, my aimed shot didn’t crit, lets reset and try again”. That’s obviously an extreme example, but if there’s so much randomness tied to one ability’s damage, and that ability is a significant part of your total throughput, maybe it’s a problem we should try to address.

13 Likes

Totally understood. My tree would have had Rapid Fire as a more “mandatory” ability but the current structure of this tree does not allow for that. Not that I think Rapid Fire needs to be mandatory, but somehow incorporating more power into the spell would make it more enticing overall. Agree that trying to incorporate a capstone tied to Rapid Fire would pretty much require an overhaul, which may cause more problems than it would solve.

The problem with this is that it essentially makes Rapid Fire mandatory, whereas you want it to be “technically” optional. Similarly with Hunter’s Knowledge, Focused Aim, and Deathblow - if I take those talents, why would I also not take Rapid Fire? I think making talents affect both abilities limits the overall build variety as those talents tend to become too powerful.

2 Likes

If they only buff Aimed Shot, does that make Rapid Fire less desirable because it has fewer modifiers than Aimed Shot?

4 Likes

Hence my suggestion for more talents that buff Rapid Fire specifically (In The Rhythm, 1 extra focus per hit, etc.). I would guess one or the other would suffice, but I believe talents that buff both would lead to less build variety. Maybe that’s a poor assumption though.

4 Likes

I just want to point out Druids had a buff exactly for this for their Arcanic Pulsar legendary, I begged for something similar during ptr for our 4-set while doing an obscene amount of testing to make just such a tracker and find the obscure behaviors of it. I think with just the slightest dev attention the mechanic could be much more enjoyable, since the biggest “problem” with it right now is its interaction with Unblinking Vigil, which won’t be a thing anymore.

The talent just feels too niche to be used as described right now. It seems like being able to save specifically for add spawns is a null point when we’d be taking Volley and saving it for that anyway for burst cleave, rendering that useless unless it’s an extended add spawn, in which case the automatic cleave should be perfectly suitable and also wouldn’t require us to also talent into Multi-Shot for a 2-target situation where we’d ideally already be taking Chimaera shot.

8 Likes

I did not intend my question to be combative if it came off that way, it was just a question of how things look at a glance. For players who don’t rely on 3rd party sites or high end theorycrafting, if they look at the tree and see 5 things that only buff Aimed Shot, and Rapid Fire off to the side, Rapid Fire probably looks like a much less desirable button. When these 5 things buff both Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire, maybe it’s a good push in the right direction that Rapid Fire is an important button you should get, and these bonuses also work on that ability so you feel like you’re getting full value from them.

Neither direction is objectively correct or incorrect.

22 Likes

Nimox, What I see Podh saying here - and Podh please correct me if I am wrong - is that there are so many talents right now that affect aimed shot, and even the current Shadowlands damage profile reflects this, that Aimed shot is the heavy majority of our damage, and rapid fire is used to reduce the cast time of aimed shot, not necessarily to be a big source of damage. EDIT: I think adding Rapid Fire to some of the aimed shot talents has helped this, but just adding damage doesn’t always feel right, if more utility to amplify the rest of our kit is also an option

Perhaps what Podh is asking about is providing talents (Under rapid fire) that give hunters another reason to want to use the button, if they have chosen to spec into it, and to that, I would completely agree.

3 Likes

I agree it helps incentivize getting rapid fire, but in the specific case of Focused Aim, it is on the complete opposite side of the tree from Rapid Fire, so if Rapid Fire isn’t chosen, taking this talent would make it feel like we’re only getting half of the supposed value out of it.

2 Likes