Excellent changes so far. I actually came to write up my own take, but I think all of my gripes have been addressed.
I love this.
Point of clarification - I assume this means it will bounce to targets even if they are not within Kill Shot threshold?
Will these 3 points have the same combined effect as the 5 did previously, or will that be changed?
Current plan: Yes
Same combined effects.
These changes sound great, thank you!
Is the plan for this talent to be a passive or a cooldown?
The problem becomes its still one of survivals main skills. This makes a third tier talent mandatory for survival in all situations, something no other spec so far has had, as tier 3 talents are meant to be choices based on encounter type or flavor.
You are locking a core ability behind level 52.
If the intent is it’s no longer a core ability, that’s just bad. Why? The single target rotation for survival is now a two button rotation without serpent sting. The discords I’m in are talking all about it. You can spec into serpent sting and explosive to gain 2 more, but they compete with better talents on the other side of the tree.
Honestly, why is serpent sting even in the class tree in the first place? Why not just move it to the survival tree and leave mm the ability to apply it if they spec into serpentstalker?
Will the skills like Scatter Shot not being usable with a melee weapon be fixed as well, or is that intentional?
The intent is every ability on the class side of the tree is usable by any spec, regardless of what weapon is equipped. It may not be in that state now, but is is planned. Barrage might be an exception to this, but Barrage is also much less mandatory as a connection point in an upcoming build.
Hunters had years of history with Serpent Sting, and it is available to Marksmanship as a talent. Multi-shot is also something many people would consider a core button, but is now in the spec trees for BM and MM. There is certainly an option where Serpent Sting is put in each tree and available with your first few points.
In general, we like to put as much class-wide stuff that we can, on the class side of the tree. This gets much more difficult when there are very crucial interactions within your spec with these buttons, such as Multi-Shot->Beast Cleave, or Multi-Shot->Trick Shots.
Serpent Sting is a cool button for Hunters. It is a nice thing for all three specs to have access to. Is it important to have before level 52? Maybe. It is early in the alpha testing stages for Dragonflight. We will get a lot of feedback from sources both internally and externally. If we decide it has to change for whatever reasons, we have time to do so.
Just to preface, I’m very grateful for the replies, and glad y’all are keeping an active watch. I don’t want anyone to think I’m being nitpicky or pestering or such D:
Just to clarify though, Serpent Sting hasn’t been available to BM in 6 years in 4 days. That’s why I suggested just moving it to replicate how it is on live, with Survival using Sting, MM using it with a passive if they spec into it, and BM not.
Though I am interested to see how it develops over beta with the knowledge you might move it around.
I am curious though - was there a design decision behind Stampede being in the Class Tree? I can’t speak for everyone, obviously, but that feels like a BM spell. (Especially since it has been one since Legion lol)
Minor Note: Is there any plans to bring back the Legion animation for Flanking Strike? The new one is so… not special? The old flanking strike was neat and flavorful - you attacked with your pet, in a way that wouldn’t hurt your pet. But the new one, you jump in the air and slam your staff onto the enemy, which could very well hurt your pet using real life physics lol.
Thank You! I just wanted to make sure because we were told it’d be possible to make “bad” specs - and was worried that meant Survival would have multiple talents they couldn’t use if they specced into it haha.
But Barrage being an exception would make sense, it’d be weird to throw a barrage of arrows from a handheld crossbow <_< Lol.
Friday afternoon thought: This is about 1/3 of World of Warcraft’s retail lifespan.
There are no planned animation changes for Hunters right now.
I plan to add more thoughts here about talents as I get some more time this weekend, but I thought I’d ask about something that has been bothering a lot of hunters for a long time now (years? I believe… since BFA): Trick shots.
Any chance you’d consider removing the target requirement for trickshots? It currently leads to a lot of headache in certain scenarios where mobs aren’t stacked properly and with some hitboxes you can’t hit 3 targets reliably with multi shot. The QoL of AoE rotation would improve massively if Trickshots would activate the moment you use multishot without any restrictions. It would also remove frustrating moments of 2 targets being available and not being able to activate Trickshots.
Two things regarding marksman and serpent sting.
- I’d like to not have to take the auto serpent sting talent. For PvP it’s especially important to not leave lingering DoTs that could break your freezing trap.
- I want the choice node to upgrade serpent sting in the class tree because it opens up possibilities for burst and sustain. Also the good stuff can’t all be in the spec trees either.
…it’s almost like you could not spec into that talent? That’s the entire point of the fact they’re trying to make this talent system about choice and swapping it through presets as you change content.
As for your second point, you’re essentially saying they should balance all 3 specs around sting, which is silly considering there’s a good 99+% chance BM won’t even go down that side of the tree. They would miss out on every kill command and most pet damage talents if they did. Likewise, in its current spot, survival will lose access to the kill command talents we have on live if we want serpent sting.
I’m saying that I want to be able to have Serpent Sting without using the Marksman talent that makes Aimed shot have 50/100% chance to apply Serpent Sting.
Not saying I want it to be mandatory, saying that it opens up possibilities for burst and sustain should you go for a build that uses Serpent Sting.
This much is untrue.
There are some hard decisions to make, to be sure, but you can have all the KC talents and still get Serpent Sting and Latent Poison/Viper’s Venom. You also have one more point to spend in the top two tiers over what is shown here, the WoWhead trees are bugged right now and only give KC as a freebie to BM.
There are other options they can take.I’m merely trying to point out the location of it is horrible as it stands.
One option for instance, could be placing serpent sting low in the survival tree, and having it be if you grab serpent sting in the class tree while knowing the spec tree one, it acts as hydras bite:
This would fit the theme of that section of the tree as well. Hydras Bite and Explosive shot would work very well together.
My entire point has been its so far down the tree most sv won’t get it, as we’ll have to choose between it and kill command talents, which actually synergize with the spec tree VERY well. The same issue exists for BM. No BM hunter would choose serpent sting over 2 charges and 30% damage/50% under 35% buff to kill command.
You literally have to skip every other active ability except misdirection in that example. Just because it’s possible doesn’t mean it’d be viable lol. The whole point is viability if you grab sting.
Even discounting the utility you skip (which is a Lot as Im sure you know), you’d miss explosive shot, stampede, chakram, and technically barrage right now, but we know that’s changing.
There’s no way grabbing serpent sting would be worth it. For those 5 points you spent getting sting, you could get steel trap, which does more single target than sting, iirc. Then you could grab stampede, which is more burst aoe damage. Then multiple utility talents.
I know your point is I said we’d lose access, and I stand by that. The path you’d have to take to get both just wouldn’t be worth it. And it will feel horrible to be neutered just to feel like I’m still playing SV.
Although we can technically get it, it’d just never be worth it.
You only get 11 points in the bottom tier no matter what you do.
6 of those are the pet/KC talents. By your own admission, those are locked in.
I’m assuming you want Keen Eyesight for the 6% crit in almost any build, which is another 3 points. You can drop those 3 if you want and get more flexibility.
That leaves 11 potential points to take and only 2 points to spend. It’s going to be a rough decision regardless.
That’s… Been my point from the start though? Saying sting should be moved up a spot to the second tier. We shouldn’t have to choose between a base rotational ability and other stuff
I only suggested moving it to the survival tree because nimox said they don’t plan to change its location in the class tree lol.
That’s a hard sell, there’s literally no damage in the 2nd tier, it would be a mandatory pick for all 3 specs, at that point just make it baseline.
I misunderstood and thought you were complaining about it being on the right side.
Let’s be real here, most of our utility is so incredibly niche this isn’t really a concern. You’re not going to take “Scare Beast” or “Tar Trap” over damage 90% of the time if your concern is optimal play.
Sure, Serpent Sting does less damage than Steel Trap in single target…but 1) you don’t need to land Serpent Sting 2) you can use Serpent Sting effectively twice slightly after Steel Trap comes off cooldown 3) Serpent Sting has no cooldown and you can use it on multiple targets in a fight.
Not to mention this is kind of the entire point of the new talent trees. You switch things up depending on the circumstances in the fight(s) you’re doing.
Additionally this whole discussion is kind of irrelevant now since we’re waiting to see the newly laid out tree.
Some important feedback focusing on a PvE perspective:
- Hunter lacks unique raid/group utility
Moving into Dragonflight, many classes/specs are getting great raid/party buffs to promote a more collaborative and RPG-esque experience. However, Hunter is unique in the fact that we do not have any sort of buff like this currently. In a recent interview, Ion Hazzikostas made the statement that the goal is to avoid playing tetris to fit in raid buffs, but it does seem a bit odd that Hunter is the one of the only pieces of the proverbial puzzle that’s missing. Everyone else brings a buff to increase output / survivability (Power Word: Fortitude, Battle Shout, Arcane Intellect, Healthstones, etc), or help with group mobility (Blessing of the Bronze, Stampeding Roar, Demonic Gateway, etc), or even increase damage taken/reduce damage dealt (Mystic Touch, Brand of Chaos, Atrophic Poison, etc)
Could there be some sort of insight into this decision or if there are any plans moving forward to address this / add a raid buff (or some sort of unique PvE utility?) Many in the community are a bit scared moving forward in Dragonflight without this utility as it makes Hunters a bit less appealing to bring than other classes.
Here’s a quick spreadsheet detailing the utility that DPS specs can bring to group content. This information is only what we know so far so this may change. Classes without released Dragonflight abilities/talents are notated by a (*) in their name. A (#) indicates it’s a shared group utility, so your battle rezzes and your Bloodlusts.
As you can see, Hunter are unique in the sense that it brings nothing Unique to the table. It would be very refreshing/exciting if we got some sort of group utility.
- Hunter lacks any sort of consistent defensives/survivability
Another frequently discussed shortcoming is Hunter’s lack of a proper defensive compared to other DPS classes. Right now, we have access to Aspect of the Turtle, Barbed Shackles (not super great, at all), and Survival of the Fittest (if you have a tenacity pet) ((Again, not really great due to low DR, low duration, and long cooldown)).
Are there any plans to add / revisit defensive utility on the class tree? In BfA we had things like Duck and Cover, in Shadowlands we had Resilience of the Hunter and Marksman’s Advantage. Many in the community think Hunter is particularly squishy compared to other DPS in most environments.
Any sort of information would be much appreciated!
Have you considered using the Pouch of Razor Fragments effect instead of having Kill Shot affected by Trick Shots? Trick shot Kill shot sounds decent in theory but in practice you wont be getting that many off and it will have no use for a large portion of a fight.