Feedback: Hellcaller Warlock

So I’m probably in a minority here who doesn’t mind the focus on wither for destruction so much. Would it have been nice to have more fire in a spec named Hellcaller? Absolutely, but I understand that the two areas where destro overlaps with it’s sibling specs is having demons and having a dot so it makes sense to me that in a shared spec those would be the areas that get focused on.

The thing that actually bothers me about hellcaller is that it doesn’t really do much with what it has. After reading through the spec the only things I really took away from it was that it has a suped up immolate with a echoing void style mechanic, and that my curses can be auras instead.

Compare that to say, rider of the apocalypse that gets to mount in combat, and rolls out the red carpet for the four horsemen, or templar raining magic weapons from the sky, spellslinger stacking up massive dots and then making them explode with multiple abilities that seem to very rapidly stack them while they’re cleaving around them, or even within the same class with diabolist summoning what are basically siege demons.

That is to say, aside from the dark soul type ability (that honestly I do not want) you could probably boils the entire spec down to 1-3 class tree talents.

"Wither - instant cast. Replaces corruption and immolate

Inflicts your target with a shadowflame damage over X seconds. While afflicted your spells on the target have a 10% increased critical strike chance."

“Rapid decomposition - While afflicted with wither your other abilities cause wither to gain stacks. Each time wither gains a stack there is an increasing chance it will become empowered, dealing damage more rapidly until all stacks are depleted. Additionally Increases flame and shadow damage by 5%”

“Spreading decay - Casting wither on a target already afflicted with wither spreads it to another nearby target. If the target was not already afflicted with wither or there are less than 4 seconds on the timer, wither will start with 3 stacks.”

And that’s the bread and butter of the spec. I don’t feel like that would feel unbalanced as a 3 point class tree capstone, and really I feel like if the bread and butter of a hero spec would feel balanced as a 3 point class tree capstone, it probably either needs to do more, interact with more things or have a bigger visual impact.

Honestly as it is now wither seems like such a passive ability in the way it interacts with things that I don’t think my gameplay (mechanically or visually) would even change that much other than my immolate probably being a different color than the rest of my fire spells. I don’t mind that on the mechanical side so much as I’m not looking for sweeping mechanical changes (minor differences would be okay), but I would at least like some more pronounced visual variation between a default destro lock and a hellcaller destro lock that goes beyond what I am assuming is a purple immolate.

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What an odd usage of an ad hominem fallacy. I hate to tell you, but there was no strawman. Words have meaning, and you telling people to stop from complaining without playing multiple specs means what I quoted. A strawman would be if I invented something totally unique or separate, vaguely or tangentially related to what you said. A better criticism could have been a false equivalency, but that’s tenuous at best. However, I clearly struck a nerve; I’m sorry for upsetting you, but I won’t be replying any further.


Back on topic: the above poster brings up some good points. There are far more flat/boring nodes in the tree than it seems like there’s in most. Even from an Affliction PoV, there’s not a terribly large amount of spec interaction. It seems mechanically strong for sure, but not interesting.

The spamming wither while moving point makes sense, especially for Destro. Aff already has a lot of buttons to push while moving though, so it would be unfortunate if they dedicated a whole node to a situation that you’re supposed to minimize through other instant-cast dots, crescendo procs, and good use of gates and circle.

Obviously there’s no way to know, but I think blackened soul will do relevant damage in AoE. This is especially true for destro considering that immolate is a huge chunk of their damage, and that’s now replaced with Wither/Blackened Soul. All the trees we’ve seen so far seem mostly applicable in all scenario types, and I don’t think this one will be an exception.

It looks to me like you’ll be getting stacks from so many other sources that you likely won’t be too worried about maximizing that specific talent for AoE.

It might even give destro a reason to slot a point into Fire and Brimstone to get a nice blanket incinerate to keep the wither stacks up.

I don’t think you know what you’re talking about. It’s not a question of laziness, it’s a question of preference. The fact that pure DPS classes have access to 3 different DPS specs does not give them any edge over hybrid classes whose DPS spec oftentimes performs much better than any of the pure DPS specs.

It’s also absolutely not the case that most players switch specs depending on the fight. Hell, most people don’t even change their talent builds from ST to AoE or whatever during a raid. It’s only the cutting edge folks (and those that unsuccessfully try to emulate them)) who do this sort of thing and they make up a minuscule percentage of the playerbase.

Most players probably don’t even engage with the talent system beyond just copying the meta build or just using the starter templates. I don’t think you realize just who plays this game, lol. WoW is no PoE.

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tbh I was expecting something a little more…exciting and with a little more BANG from a name like Hellcaller.

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This is my concern aswell, I’m really happy you are the first to reply so this is a comment everyone will see.

All I kept thinking first as an Affliction player is “jeez another button”, don’t get me wrong what Malevolence does is great but maybe they could of done things differently with it… maybe put the power into Darkglare? Making it a worthy cd, I’m not sure but the hassle of another button in Affliction is worrying.

I’m praying Soul Harvester will be better.

After some more research and thought… A hellcaller (or satyr hellcaller) is a warlock who manipulates the entropic fire of fel magic, rather than summoning demons. Entropic fire burns the life of the warlock and the enemy.

I can see where the inspiration came from now for some of the nodes. The sacrificing health node and the dot that “burns”. I think the delivery of the fantasy of a warlock who manipulates said entropic fire to burn his enemies is not hitting for me. It is close, but make it so that we don’t need to manage a dot. Not sure why the damage is shadowflame it should be green-yellow fire.

I would like to see something where our spenders( don’t get me started with affliction and malefic rapture-i want that gone and go back to UA as the single target spender) place a debuff on the target. Every time we cast a spender then the stacks on the debuff goes up. Once we hit 8 stacks (or enemy hits 20% health), then the warlock and the enemy burns health, and the warlock has increased haste for x seconds, or whatever else you see is needed as the buff the warlock gets. Therefore seed/ua for aff and rain/chaos bolt for destro work for this ability. The debuff shouldn’t have a duration, it is just a permanent debuff now on the target- this makes it so the tree doesn’t feel like dot management or “affliction”

Have some kind of cast while moving node in this tree.

Cataclysm should be baseline for destro.
(Had to get that in)

Emphasis on the non demon summoning - so perhaps sacrifice pet but make it better, maybe if you sacrifice pet you get even more benefits and dmg. Maybe a choice node of sacrifice pet and you get all the abilities of your different demons. Therefore i get a magic debuff cleanse, and an interrupt, etc.

Perhaps summon infernal/darkglare are replaced with a cool 1 minute cooldown.

I would like to see some cool interactions with burning health. Maybe burning rush should count and the new ability that burns your health (but not sure how I feel about perma having burning rush on - so maybe not). Perhaps the more health you burn of yours, the more benefits you get throughout a fight/in combat- aka some ramp as the fight goes on.

In summary (wishlist):

  1. green-yellow fire theme
  2. burning health of enemy and the warlock
  3. burning own health=benefits of some kind
  4. 1 minute cooldown
  5. casting while moving
  6. perhaps no pets or demon summons to play into the hellcaller fantasy

Yep! I mentioned that in my post a bit ago! Old RPG had it as a racial class alternative for Arcanist (Warlock) Satyr player characters.

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You know, for someone who isn’t C.E or even that high of an I.O you are acting awfully elitistic about people opinions being wrong on ground of being Low Level or not doing the content (Something i have seen in other threads too)

Someone might be low-level and still have a good point to make, Someone might just raid normal and still have valuable experience to share or a unique perspective, someone might purely RP and their take is probably valuable still (its part of why the Council exist with so many players of different backgrounds)

They might disagree with you, they might be wrong or they might be right, but this isn’t your job to define that, its the Developement Team and whoever is gathering the Feedback here.

Write your feedback, write why you believe you are correct, use arguments that are actually effective, but don’t go around playing the ElitistJerks.

But you replying to everyone you disagree that they are wrong due to low level, not doing the content at the appropriate level is not helping feedback.

Its funny rly, i think MR is good for the spec, and even some other points you have i share, but i might be wrong, maybe the devs can make something even better around dots and be good in m+ and raid at the same time while not being OP (but i doubt).

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I have this small hope that Wither + Hatefury Rituals will be like the Diablo 3 Witchdoctor where you could make your dots infinite*, but then don a mask to make them deal damage in half the time, so you had super fast dots that were still infinite.

A superpowered Corruption that made Absolute Corruption the best talent (removing a button that is annoying to press), made the rotation easier, and made Affliction feel like it had an AOE dot that actually hit really hard.

That would be nice.

While I may not be CE I do have higher end mythic experience.

I dont push IO because I dont find mplus fun and never have.

Yet most of the time their points arent good.

I didnt say anything elitist. I pointed out they were posting on a low level toon.

Thats your opinion

Thats the thing, I dont mind wither or this tree for that matter, on its own it sounds mechanically viable and needs a bit of work. But I mean… HELLCALLER! Where are the explosions, chaos, hellfires of… hell! Wither seems way too soft to be called the driving ability for Hellcaller.

I do understand the need to find ways for trees to impact both specs, but thematically it has to also try to do something to be appealing. Right now, neither tree Destruction has access to feels destructiony.

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Here’s changes to the Hellcaller tree that would suit the premise of the whole thing an awful lot better.

Tier 1
Wither: Replaced with Explosive Malevolence -

Destruction: When Chaos Bolt strikes a target with Immolate, it explodes, dealing shadowflame damage to all nearby targets. If no other enemies are nearby, the target instantly suffers a tick of Immolate damage increased by 200%

Affliction: When Malefic Rapture strikes a target with Unstable Affliction, it explodes, dealing shadowflame damage to all nearby targets. If no other enemies are nearby, the target instantly suffers a tick of Unstable Affliction damage increased by 100%

Tier 2
Xalan’s Ferocity/Xalan’s Cruelty: no changes

Blackened Soul: Replaced with Answered Call -

When Explosive Malevolence is triggered, it has a 25% chance to apply Hellcall to your primary target. Targets with Hellcall pulse with shadowflame damage each time they take damage from Immolate or Unstable Affliction for 8 seconds, dealing damage split among all nearby enemies. Multiple applications may overlap, and you gain a soul shard after the 8 second duration ends.

Tier 3
Utility/defensive choice nodes: unchanged (but could be better)

Hatefury Rituals (updated): Chance to proc Hellcall increased to 50% and damage increased by 50%, but you only have a 50% chance to gain a soul shard at the end of its duration.

Bleakheart Tactics (updated): The free tick of Immolate/Unstable Affliction damage on single targets hit by Explosive Malevolence is increased an additional 100%.

Tier 4
Mark of Xavius (updated): Unstable Affliction/Immolate damage increased 10%. Casting Unstable Affliction or Immolate directly onto a target increase the damage of your next ability by 5%.

Cull the Weak (updated): Explosive Malevolence damage is increased by 30% on enemies with 20% or less health.

Mark of Peroth’arn (updated): When you apply Hellcall to a target, an Eye of Peroth’arn sets its gaze upon the area for the duration. All enemies in the gaze suffer 10% additional damage from Agony, Corruption and Immolate.

Tier 5
Malevolence: Replaced by Stygian River -

Release a river of boiling shadowflame towards your target. Enemies caught in the river take shadowflame damage every second, 100% increased damage from Explosive Malevolence, and durations of Agony, Corruption and Immolate do not decrease (damage is still applied at the normal rate). Instant cast, 10 second duration, 60 second cooldown.

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For Destruction Warlock I don’t like this tree and I think it’s pretty lame. I was expecting this to have bigger fire or chaos bolt kamehhamehas or calling more infernals. The Withers dot seems really lame and doesn’t fit Destruction class fantasy very well. I hope Blizzard redoes this one to be more Destruction fire and chaos bolt focused.

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Just because of how much of a conspiracy nutter I am - I’ve convinced myself this was a deliberate release of the ‘Soul Harvester’ tree, and to win community points they’re going to come out in the coming weeks with a ‘we’ve listed to feedback and redesigned Hellcaller, and will adjust the current iteration into the Soul Harvester Hero Talents’…

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Wouldn’t the flaw in this logic be that Hellcaller specifically refers to Destro abilities, and Soul Harvester is gonna be Afflic/Demo?

I mean granted, to go down the rabbit hole, it’d be red herrings and they’d just change which ability triggered what, so fair enough, though if Hellcaller was just Soul Harvester? I’d ALSO be disappointed.

I expect Soul Harvester to interact with Drain Soul, maybe the old Reap Soul ability Affliction had in Legion, and its Demo-half is getting more Demonic Cores from your demon minions or something.

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You hit the nail on the head. It’s because the culture at Blizzard had changed from one of providing fun and quality, to nothing but pure output.

So if your ability to do your job is determined solely by output, you do the simplest, easiest thing to meet that metric.

This is why WoW has lost millions of subscribers over the years. It needs to change, or the trend will continue.

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Immolate generates soul shards which wither doesnot so we lose generating soul shards faster to make casting spells even slower than before . Means alot less times cast fire spells and chaos bolts that use soul shards ,also if demon dies longer time to recall demon back with less soul shards. Immolate is number one button, push on my rotation to generate soul shards that doesnot go on a cooldown before you can press another fire spell.

I very much agree with this. When I think “Hellcaller” I see a mix of shadow and fire (Shadowflame?) and it should FEEL like I’m commanding the deepest, darkest magic in a combination that swirls them together.

This was the spec I was waiting for as I like Affliction and Destro. (Just never really could get into Demo.) When I read it, I saw that it could be powerful from a sheer numbers, but I don’t feel like it really captures the fantasy of a warlock who has just gone to the most extreme depths of two branches of magic and brought them together in a way that would be “bad” by any light magic practitioner. Let me feel the power and fury of shadow and flame!

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