Feedback: Havoc and Vengeance Demon Hunters

In Development Midnight Beta Test
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This thread is dedicated to leaving feedback on Havoc and Vengeance Demon Hunters in Midnight. Look in this thread and in the Midnight Alpha Development Notes for adjustments and bugfixes made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

Apex Talents

Many Apex Talents are available for playtesting and may be selected using specialization tree points in the final specialization tree node. The current User interface (UI) is temporary for playtesting purposes and will be replaced with a final UI later in development. As with any test cycle, we will be adding more Apex Talents to the test over time and not all will be available with the start of the alpha test.

To help us refine Apex Talents, please consider the following questions as you playtest:

  • How gameplay-impacting, exciting, and fantasy forward is your Apex Talent to you?
  • Are your Apex Talents and new Hero Talents meeting the approachability goals laid out in our Combat for Everyone in Midnight article?
  • Are there cases you would consider not selecting your Apex talent?
  • Does the Apex talent disproportionally favor a particular talent build or Hero Talent tree?

For feedback regarding the changes on making the combat system more approachable for players of all skill levels, leave your feedback in the Combat Approachability feedback thread.

Thank You

We greatly appreciate all your feedback and are very excited for you to test out all the changes in Midnight!

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Havoc

Midnight brings targeted changes to Havoc focused on two key areas: Reducing total button count of both offensive and defense/utility abilities, especially when they have overlapping identity or functional redundancy; and simplifying circumstances of conditional bonuses that warp ability usage in unintuitive ways, especially those that stem from overlapping buff windows. Many skills have been changed or removed, including talents with unclear or overly-niche purpose. Large multiplicative skill bonuses have been changed or removed to make room for Havocā€™s natural gameplay to be fun and effective.

Vengeance

Vengeanceā€™s Midnight updates are primarily focused on improving the natural usability of its defensive kit. Before Midnight, Vengeance had defensive gaps that made it susceptible to difficult-to-understand deaths; it relied heavily on effects that were conditional or ramped up over time; and it skewed too heavily towards effects that were predictive in nature and required advance knowledge of encounters to use effectively. In Midnight, Vengeanceā€™s defensive kit has been significantly streamlined by increasing baseline defenses, by making Demon Spikes easier to maintain at a high rate, by replacing complex ramp-up effects with simpler versions that reward core rotational gameplay, and by reducing emphasis on predictive effects to make room for more potent reactive ones. Additional changes aim to simplify and clarify Vengeanceā€™s offensive rotation.

1 Like
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I know, I know, thereā€™s a lot of tings 'n stuff missing.

Thereā€™s probably going to be bigger feedback post made in the future, however, these are two things that really grind my glaives right now:

  • Glaive Tempest: Phenomenal the way it now works on Alpha ā€“ probably the thing it was missing was to be auto casted on bladedance all along. My biggest gripe right now is that is has a target requirement ā€“ this is where you lost me.

  1. In PvE and PvP, if this is something I am spending a talent point on, I want it all the time ā€“ itā€™s my fury and I am ok with it being on every bladedance. Please remove the target requirement.

  2. This is more specifically for Aldrachi, please let it be Physical Chaos to count towards Wounded Quarry funnel.

  • Chaos Nova: As the tech is already available, please have it function as Void Nova a 30 yard, targeted, stun for Havoc also. The PvPer in me is giddy at the thought of this and it can also be used as a clutch, ranged, stop in PvE as well. This would make losing Fel Eruption not feel as bad as it currently does and give Havoc the ability to set up ranged cc chains in PvP ā€“ not to mention pairing it with Isolated Prey for the increased stun duration vs a single target.

As an aside, I thought Aldrachi losing sigils, especially Sigil of Spite and Soul Sigils would cause the gameplay to slow down but it actually feels similar ā€“ which is good and bad. There are still a lot of gaps where you want more souls though that may just be a tuning issue on soul generation. When Reaverā€™s Mark is on the target you absolutely feel fluid with soul generating, however, once it falls off you become starved if you do not have a Reaverā€™s Glaive banked or The Hunt is currently on cooldown.

Thank you. There will definitely be more to come once more is available for Havoc.

Edit: Sadly, I was playing with a bugged Annihilator talent, Meteoric Rise, where, even as Havoc never speccing into Vengeance, you receive the Vengeance version of the talent that causes your Collective Anguishā€™s Fel Devastation to spawn 3 souls over itā€™s duration. This is what was making Aldrachi Reaver feel so fluid. Not going to lie, this felt really good and feels even worse that itā€™s not intended.

9 Likes
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Some things Iā€™ve noticed while casually playing Annihilator VDH: Iā€™m unable to track any buffs related to Annihilator hero spec like Voidfall via the new CD manager which is pretty important to see how many stacks I have so I know if I have meteors ready or need to try hold for adds spawn etc.

Iā€™d also like to see the remaining duration of fiery brand via buff tracker instead of having to look at the nameplates or buffs at top.

4 Likes
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Letā€™s get to it:

There are a lot of things I like and a lot of things I donā€™t like. As always, I wonā€™t mince my words on my thoughts and feelings. I sincerely love and appreciate all the work you have put into havoc there are things I like and things I do not.

Talents:

  • Eye Beam: Great overall change bringing it back to a 30 second cd, love it. With that being done can we also return the 3 or so seconds we lost on demonic? It really is time to make Demon Hunters Demons again and something to be afraid of. If this change were to occur, I am completely fine with Shattered Destiny being retired or replaced.

  • Cycle of Hatred: Hoooollyyyyy man. Everyone hates this talent in its current iteration. Just make it a flat reduction and get it over with, please. This is 100% a vanilla WoW mechanic and does not fit into the modern game.

  1. No matter what anyone says, to a dps player, dps is a race. This talent right here is as if everyone else in the game has push to start and havoc dhs have to get out the car, put the crank in the engine, crack the engine, get back in the car, start the engine, and then finally starting the race. By the time all this is done, on pull, lust is almost, if only already, over and we spend the rest of the encounter trying to play catchup in a raid or at the start of m+.

  • Essence Beak: Itā€™s a button I absolutely love pressing. As it stands, in its current state, it does not deserve to be a capstone talent, nor does it deserve to have a 4 second duration with a 40 second cooldown. I would really appreciate the cooldown being reduced and the duration maybe doubled or increased to 10 seconds? The placement needs to be higher in the tree, making it more accessible, or making it a base ability.

  • Glaive Tempest: As stated in my other post, love it being tied to blade dance. And again, as I stated in my other post, I hate it requiring 4 targets ā€“ please, please, please change this somehow. Additionally, the fury cost is just too much right now. The havoc fury economy took a big hit and I am finding I am being starved for fury more often than not.

  • A Fire Inside: Another talent that I think does not deserve to be a capstone talent at all. I also think it should also just make Immolation Aura be off the global cooldown. Nothing sucks more than winning the AFI lottery and having to spam the button on gcd.

  • Mortal Dance & Deflecting Dance: The PvPer in me has been screaming about this choice node since its inception. Like wtf man? Because they both have ā€œDanceā€ in the name they have to be on the same choice node? Just make one of them base (in my opinion, Mortal Dance). I really do not want to lose out on such a cool and needed defensive.

  • Blade Dance Dodge: This was a fantastic ability and far ahead of its time. With all the changes, passives, and other defensive abilities other classes have received that far rival this ability, in the modern game, it is time for this to be brought back into the game. It should be placed on a choice node with Deflecting Dance and, as an example, may be called Avoiding Dance (I am not the best with names). This would make more sense than what we currently have on the aforementioned node that I despise. We would have an option for melee heavy fights and one for caster heavy fights**.**

Apex Talents: Long Live Big Moments!

  • The Eternal Hunt: Love it, love it, love it! I love having access to The Hunt more frequently, I always wanted it to be a 45 second cd and this is close enough (maybe in the future?).

  • Empowered Eye Beam: I do hope the Empowered Eye Beam buff is intended to work the way it currently does: where every meta is an opportunity for 2 eye beams to be empowered based on the 12 second duration of the buff after casting The Hunt.

  • Big Moments: I have loved you and missed you since Shadowlands Beta. Fantastic job bringing this back ā€“ I would love for it to be up a lot more either through much shorter eye beam cooldown or eye beam resets ā€“ this satiates me for now. My biggest critique has to do with the second Blade Dance/Death Sweep proc and comboing it with the new Glaive Tempest. With the already poor fury economy, just make the second cast of Blade Dance/Death Sweep free of fury cost and have it also proc Glaive Tempest for free.

Wasted Space and Talent Combinations:

  1. There is a lot of wasted space and talents that can be combined in both the spec and talent trees. One great example is: Growing Inferno and Burning Wound ā€“ literally doing the same thing. Why not just combine these into one talent and move A Fire Inside up to the vacant slot?

  2. Another example would be the all the glaive talents. Does Accelerated Blade and Furious Throws really need to be 2 separate talents when they can just be combined into 1 talent? The same exact thing can literally be said for Initiative and Tactical Retreat.

  3. Lastly, in the Class tree, my personal favorites: Bouncing Glaive, Master of the Glaive, and Champion of the Glaive. These should all just be 1 talent with a lot of words in the tooltip.

I have been having a lot of fun on the Alpha and, as before, thank you again for the opportunity to playtest and provide my feedback.

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I have to imagine thereā€™s metrics and player data-driven reasons for some of the pruning and combination of talents, but for the love of everything unholy, please put demonā€™s bite back as a choice node. I know that the fury economy isnā€™t exactly ironed out with these changes, but standing around and waiting for enough energy to push a button doesnā€™t feel good. (And hasnā€™t. Every time theyā€™ve tried to get rid of it, people ask for it back.)

7 Likes
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I already made a separate post about my feedback Feedback on DH: Demon Bite Removal If you want to remove that thread thatā€™s ok. But my thoughts are basically that Demons Blades feels worse than demons bite in terms of gameplay feel and fury generation. The action-combat and fast paced feel of the class is one of its biggest appeals and set it apart from the other auto attack centric classes with a lot of downtime in waiting for energy or resource builder CDs. The removal doesnā€™t feel like it actually improves anything based on what Iā€™ve play tested. I feel it would be much better to just make Felblade baseline for Havoc with the original selection of demons bite and blades returning. Or make the felblade talent a choice between felblade and demons bite.

8 Likes
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I agree with pretty much everything Potspoon said. My main issues are with the capstones.

Getting rid of Sigil of spite and The Hunt just to replace it with darkness and a few other passives is an absolutely terrible move. It tanks dps, and it tanks healing opportunity. All for a teeny weeny bit of safety for a few seconds.

Sigil of Spiteā€™s removal alone makes the Aldrachi Reaver hero spec far less powerful. Relying on The Hunt and your small soul generators just isnā€™t enough for a solid rotation, and itā€™s terrible for AoE, which is one of the DHā€™s best qualities.

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I just have feedback with just one word: Why?

My bars are absolutelly empty, I donā€™t even know what Iā€™m supposed to press, I have no abilities. This is way too much. I would argue havoc had too few abilities before the prune. I find the spec unplayable.

Maybe itā€™s my years of playing sub rogue but I want to have something to do most GCDs. Havoc seems to be mostly waiting, now. I was enjoying the way Havoc was mostly a high number of satisfying short or medium cooldowns, not very tactical but very power-fantasy-ish. But now thereā€™s just no class.

Iā€™m not a DH main, but I do play them a significant ammount and this feels like chewing while only having half of your teeth.

Please reconsiderā€¦ well, everything you did here. I have played since BCā€™s launch and I have never given this kind of feedback before, and I used to give a lot of feedback. This is the worst change to any spec I have ever seen.

4 Likes
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Iā€™ve not been able to test a huge amount due server instability (par for the course, not throwing shade!), BUT:

It feels like VDH dodged the pruning?

HDH is super fun, the reduced CD on eyebeam is a welcome change.

Capstone, at least some, donā€™t have the aura about them that they should. This is for both Veng and Havoc.

1 Like
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Iā€™d rather see Fel Rush and Felblade combined than lose Demonā€™s Bite. That is all.

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As someone who has enjoyed playing DH off and on since their inception, I have to say I despise the removal of Demonā€™s Bite. I do not like my resource generation being random/semi-random and not in the direct control of myself. Yes I know it wasnā€™t optimal, but it feels awful just watching my character stand there bapping an enemy waiting to have enough resources to hit buttons and not just generating it myself. Iā€™d rather you make Demon Bite ā€˜goodā€™ then just get rid of it.

It looks terrible.
It feels terrible.
Havoc did not need this kind of pruning.

8 Likes
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I primarily play DH as an alt and wanted to chime in to say that Cycle of Hatred stands out as one of my least favorite talents in the whole game.

Eye Beam is central to Havocā€™s playstyle. A 20 second cooldown is about right for making the spec feel fun and engaging. However, needing to repeatedly use Eye Beam to get to that point seems entirely unnecessary. The tweaks to Eye Beam and Cycle of Hatred only make the talent feel slightly less bad, and do not solve the core problem.

Iā€™ll note the specific issues I have with the talent:

  • It feels like a required talent since it sets the cadence for Eye Beam
  • I donā€™t feel like Iā€™m gaining an advantage by activating it, but rather feel punished if I let the stacks fall off, which I usually have no control over
  • The talentā€™s description does not explain whether/when the stacks will expire
  • I still to this day have no idea when the stacks are going to fall off
  • The beginning of every set of fights feels like a slog
  • Having a cooldown change semi-unpredictably makes me spend a disproportionate amount of time thinking about the talentā€™s effects
  • All my friends hate it, too

Iā€™ll spend some more time on Beta and see if anything else comes to mind.

7 Likes
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(Repost of my post on EU forums)

Hello, and thank you for the opportunity to participate in the Beta testing of the Midnight Expansion!

I would like to share my experiences and observations from the perspective of a veteran player (started in July 2007) and a long time tank (since WotLK), with past history of clearing all Raid bosses on highest difficulties, and as of Shadowlands focused on Mythic+, though not a high key pusher (currently 3.1k, not interested in pushing higher due to lack of tangible rewards).

I currently main two classes (i.e., playing both to same extent), Demon Hunter and Death Knight, primarily in the tanking role that is closest to my heart. As I am getting into playtesting, I wanted to share my initial thoughts now, and add additional in-depth feedback once I get more experience in the more end-game type of content where the tanking role shines.

Perspective Disclaimer:

I will be mostly referring using ā€œvibe and feelsā€ rather than hard math. There are greater brains within Demon Hunter community that have the talent and skills to optimize the playstyle; personally, I consider my feedback as coming from a casual player who just wants to log in and have fun, with nominal research and character optimization, but without simming every new item or spending hours in Excel spreadsheets.

Initial Thoughts:

1. The Good

Generally speaking, the majority of changes to and simplification of the Vengeance Demon Hunter are overwhelmingly positive. The main rotational abilities and defensives were improved and simplified. There are more good than bad things, so letā€™s start with cheering on the good stuff:

  • New Spirit Bomb feels amazing and has itā€™s own niche, with the cooldown (reduced by Haste) being the cost of it hard now.

  • Finally, uncapped target limit on Soul Cleave! Obviously, this was likely warranted due to Spirit Bomb change, but still feels amazing. There is something about the animation, the visual and the sound of Soul Cleave that scratches that itch for me. If only it had the green tinge of Fel instead of the odd purpleā€¦ At least a glyph, perhaps?

  • Simplified Frailty is a major improvement, as it removes the mental load of choosing to add stacks on multiple high-priority targets vs. using other abilities.

  • Fiery Brand applying a defensive buff instead of relying on debuff is a major bonus for big pull M+ enjoyers, not having to wait half the engagement for debuff to spread - the spreading is now for damage purposes, not survivability.

  • New Demon Muzzle is a significant improvement, I thought it was an amazing idea when it was added to Shamans, and I am excited to see it added to Demon Hunters.

  • Wings of Wrath is probably the strongest capstone we get and itā€™s not even offering direct offensive or defensive bonuses. Absolutely loving it!

  • Burn It Out/Soul Cleanse self-dispel choice node, which will help with a lot of encounters and an M+ affix.

  • First In, Last Out which will help a lot with engaging new enemy packs, and upgrades Infernal Strike into a minor defensive CD.

  • Vengeful Beast - I wasnā€™t happy to see Fel-Scarred go, but this is a pleasant and meaningful way to keep a part of it.

    • It would be nice if the abilities upgraded (to Soul Sunder, Spirit Burst andā€¦ well, Fracture didnā€™t have one) as they did for FS, same as they do for Havoc and Devourer in their respective Metas.

2. The Bad (not really bad, but not good either)

Then there are some really good talents but with some caveats I am not too keen on. Some of these are a tuning matter, and some feel awkward for one or another reason:

1. Felfire Fist

Donā€™t get me wrong, I love this talent, I think itā€™s an amazing idea to bring back Sigil of Flame being cast on Infernal Strike and I love this talent, I have a concern about its implementation. The concerning part is of course the fact the talent requires dropping out of combat - a talent most useful in M+ where chain pulling is often preferred or even required.

While Vengeance get this requirement implemented, at the same time Rogues have it removed - historically a class that required dropping out of combat to go back to Stealth and be able to perform their opener. This doesnā€™t seem fair to me.

If the Team is open to ideas, this concern could be easily fixed by having Felfire Fist mechanics be inspired by Havocā€™s Initiative talent:

  • Damaging an enemy with Infernal Strike that is not in combat with you places a Sigil of Flame at the target location. Vengeful Retreat refreshes your potential to trigger this effect on any enemies you are in combat with.

This is by no means a perfect solution, but something that maybe could be used for inspiration and iteration. I just think using either or both of the Initiative talentā€™s functions could make Felfire Fist more functional and remove the friction of having to drop off combat.

2. Soulcrush

This one is very simple - this talent is mandatory, as is pretty much every Frailty-related talent, but this one so much more. The only issue I have with it is a capstone that can only be reached by spending two talent points into Vulnerability. Thatā€™s 3 talent points in Gate 3 that cannot be moved elsewhere, limiting choices.

I believe the talent should be made baseline, baked into Frailty. A lot of classes and specs had mandatory talents that added modifiers to existing abilities baked in to simplify them, and Soulcrush feels like a talent that has missed reaching that goal.

3. Painbringer

With the update to Calcified Spikes, Painbringer seems to be a worse, more expensive copy of that talent. Moreso, the talent name never fit with what it does.

It would benefit the tree if the talents did not duplicate effects (and personally if their names aligned with what they do). I think as a 2-point talent this could be a talent that draws inspiration from Unholy DKā€™s Ancient Power:

  • Consuming a Soul Fragment increases your [Agility/Critical Strike] chance by X% for Y sec. Multiple applications may overlap.

Both Agility and Crit benefit the DH offensively and defensively, so any could work. Also, it would align with other classesā€™ Spec Trees that also offer talents with stats.

4. Soulmonger

This has always been a dead talent, but it has potential. Itā€™s main issue always seemed to stem from the fact Leech (that we have access to through talents) cannibalizes Soulmongerā€™s benefits.

It could be a simple solution to let Soulmonger always grant an absorption shield, not just overheal, or to allow all self-overhealing to shield the DH.

5. Darkness

I always had beef with this talent, now even more since itā€™s contending to be a capstone. For a 5-min cooldown (that can be reduced to 3, but doesnā€™t have to, so not an argument) it is a very dubious ability. Two factors:

  1. When it works, itā€™s amazing. But itā€™s RNG nature can also cause it to do absolutely nothing every 5 minutes.
  2. Itā€™s visual isā€¦ invisible. Even when I cast it in the middle of combat and I know where it is because Iā€™m standing in the middle of it, I can barely see it.

As a 5-min CD capstone, I would expect this talent to at least offer 10% damage reduction at all times (which is less than DKā€™s 4-min Gate 2 15% DR AMZ). Most of all, however, it needs a better visual - a floating translucent cloak of purple mists (that doesnā€™t cover ground effects), or anything that my party can see immediately.

6. Soul Splitter, Revel in Pain, Final Breath

Tuning issues, honestly. These talents sound great on paper, but they seem to be too poorly tuned to be worth considered.

  • Soul Splitterā€™s 2-point investment for 4% chance is too steep.

  • Revel in Pain is a talent I cannot be serious aboutā€¦ Even 20% of Fire damage dealt would be too low. It is already capped at 10% max HP, and I have no idea how would anyone reach even 1% of max HP in shield in combat with 2% Fire damage contribution.

  • Final Breath has the problem with Fel Devastationā€™s channel not being reduced by Haste and creates a partial tick that can deal next to no damage.

    • Besides that, Fel Devastation can often be cancelled early (movement or casting an ability instead of queuing it), making this Gate 3 ā€œcapstoneā€ null and void.

The Ugly (a.k.a. personal concerns and ither issues)

1. Spec Talents in Class Tree

The Class Tree still contains a number of talents useful to Vengeance only:

  • Infernal Armor (Armor and Thorns during Immolation Aura)
  • Aldrachi Design (Parry bonus)
  • Live by the Glaive (Fury generation and Heal on parries)

From Vengeance perspective this is not a problem, even beneficial not having to spend Spec talent points, but even though our Havoc and Devourer brothers and sisters have to go through talents that are either useless to them, or a new one (self-dispel) that is awesome, but situational.

Vengeance has a few talents that could be universally good for all specs:

  • Burning Blood (Fire damage bonus - could be Cosmic for Dev)
  • Fallout (chance for Soul Fragments on Immolation Aura cast)
  • Fel Flame Fortification (spell damage reduction during Immo)
  • Volatile Flameblood (Immo crit chance and Fury generation) [1]

I think (some of) these talents could be swapped around to give better mid-right part of the Class Tree side for DPS specs while keeping tank talents within tank Spec Tree.

2. Capstone Talent Benefits Disparity

One of the capstones, Demonic Resilience, offers powerful defensive benefit to Havoc and Devourer in form of additional Blur charge. For Vengeance, it offers additional Demon Spikes, which is nowhere near as capstone-worthy. With Feed the Demon, we really donā€™t need this talent at all, but even without it getting an additional charge of active mitigation doesnā€™t even begin to compare to Blur.

It seems like, as a capstone, this talent should rather offer a charge of Fiery Brand (and have that part removed from Down in Flames).

3. Movement Speed Redundancy

Demon Hunters were never a class that complained about lack of mobility, mostly because of superior movement abilities in Vengeful Retreat and Infernal Strike/Fel Rush/Shift. With the rework, we still retain Pursuit and Felfire Haste, none of which were very popular picks, but Havoc and Vengeance also gain Felbound, which is significantly worse than the two preceding ones.

On top of that, we get a new capstone talent, Wings of Wrath which is a massively beneficial talent (and probably the only worthwhile capstone we have in Class Tree) that itself, combined with our movement abilities, trumps the need for any extra speed talents.

Devourer gains a superior talent Guile - it is understandable as a ranged caster some spells should get more range, but 3% movement speed Havoc and Vengeance get is nowhere near as valuable.

Instead of movement speed, some of these nodes feel like they are prime spots for adding flat stat talents like all other classes get - they might be boring, but they are still worthwhile and much more valuable.

4. Old Dead Talents Looking For New Job

There are two specific talents that existed pretty much forever but their potential has been squandered by the fact they offered Fury, a resource we always had in abundance. These are Disrupting Fury and Swallowed Anger.

  • Disrupting Fury - I do not recall a situation historically when Vengeance would have problem with Fury generation, and now even with Felblade nerfed it does not appear there being any concerns. Havoc, with the removal of Demonā€™s Bite might see some use here, but the problem is not only that this source of Fury requires a talent point investment, it is unreliable as it requires an interruptible cast on an enemy. We do want to interrupt enemy casts, but we need to be tactical about it, choosing which spells must be interrupted, not treat it as a Fury source.*

  • Swallowed Anger - This one is even more interesting, recently nerfed to offer 1 Fury (at least as per tooltip) when dispelling an enemy. Was there an intent to replace Fury with Soul Fragment?

If a player is to invest talent points into situational talents that require using situational spells such as offensive dispel and interrupt, the talent nodes should offer greater benefit than Fury that isnā€™t even enough to even cast a Chaos Strike or Soul Cleave. Based on the talent names, there is a lot of potential to make these more interesting, for example:

  • Disrupting Fury - Successfully interrupting an enemy with Disrupt increases the damage you deal to them by 5% for 10 sec.

    • Aside from the fact the name of the interrupt is Disrupt and that the talent gives Fury, one could say the name indicates the disruption enrages/infuriates the Demon Hunter. The effect can be found in Warriorā€™s Honed Reflexes.

  • Swallowed Anger - Consume Magic increases your Agility/Intellect by 5% for 10 seconds when a beneficial Magic effect is successfully removed from the target.

    • When I think of Demon Hunter consuming magic, I see them as empowering themselves the same way when they (lorewise) consume demonic essence to become as strong as what they hunt. Consume Magic could therefore

Obviously, the values and durations are just an example, I lack the Devsā€™ expertise. I do think however that such would be better, and could even be made powerful given their limited, situational nature that requires a spell cast to interrupt and a spell buff to dispel from target. Mages are expert at Spellstealing actual magical effects, Warriors can reflect the magic back at their opponents, Death Knights can nullify magical attacksā€¦ Demon Hunters could be the ones that feed on the magic to empower their attacks.

  • Guest star: Felblade - I am not sure what is the intent of this ability now in Vengeanceā€™s toolkit - it deals less damage and generates less Fury than Fracture. Heck, even Sigil of Flame deals more initial damage than Felblade against single target, which is just silly. Felbladeā€™s only benefit seems to be closing distance, something that Infernal Strike is better used for.

4. Closing thoughts and personal wishes

I know it may look like there is more bad than good, but honestly it is not. It is just that the bad things and things that bother us are the ones we want to talk about in detail. I apologize for the amount of suggestions and ideas - I am well aware the Devs are more than capable of coming up with good ideas, especially knowing how things work on the back end - I did not mean to pretend I know better. I do think that ideas should be shared and maybe someone find an inspiration in them - or an idea might be something one missed due to having spend working on something for way too long (I am a designer IRL, not related to gaming at all, but I know the pain of iterating and reiterating over and over and over again).

In truth, I am having a blast playing the new Vengeance and I havenā€™t even reached max level yet (taking my sweet time). None of the ā€œissuesā€ I raised are dealbreakers for me or something that will push me back from the class.

As a final note, as I would not be myself if I didnā€™t push for itā€¦ Until Devourer, Demon Hunters were always about using Fel/demonic energies. With the loss of Fel-Scarred spec, Vengeance feels too purple in too many areas, with both Hero talents having purple/Void image and spell effects.

  • Could we have some of the purple visuals replaced with green instead? None of Vengeance abilities are Void/Shadow/Cosmic damage. Wounded Quarry deals Chaos damage, but it has purple animation. Soul Cleave animation is purple. Fury of the Aldrachi is purple. Can we keep purple at Annihilator and have green in Aldrachi Reaver? Pretty please?

  • Last and least, can we please have green-tinted Aldrachi Reaver icon?

  1. Note that I do not believe Soul Immolation design for Devourer is a good idea and the ability should be revamped. There is a reason Warlocks no longer have Life Tap and there are no other abilities that deal damage to self. Even despite that, it is an infinitely boring ability that should be changed to actuall deal damage to enemies - even if itā€™s a single target DoT rather than AoE aura ā†©ļøŽ

1 Like
17

The initial thoughts and opinions of a long time Vengeance main in the mid casual range (minimum portals and AOTC each season / currently 3k IO, AOTC, early mythic prog)

Updated post 90 testing

POSITIVE:

  1. Fracture - Basline Fracture is much overdue and welcomed.
  2. Firey brand - this ability not affecting the player always felt terrible. Having to wait for a slow spread to get the defensive value on all mobs in large pulls was never fun. Having this affect the tank feels wayyy better. Again, long overdue
  3. The spec (like several other tanks) does seem to be a little more tanky baseline

NEGATIVE:

  1. Having to talent into a second charge on demon spike especially as a cap stone (Demonic Resilience) feels really strange. This feels like a must take talent and thus not really an option. I would also prefer Demonic Resilience be removed with two charges back baseline reverting it to 10 Secs instead of 12 as a trade off and would like to see Soul Carver moved to itā€™s place in the class tree. IMO Soul Carver has never felt like a strong spec tree capstone and it feels like it would also be a good class tree capstone option as it would work for both Havoc and Devourer as well
  2. Demon Spikes talents - Didnā€™t initially realize it but there are still 4 talents affecting Demon Spikes. Having so many talents affecting this CD has never felt good especially now that there is a capstone talent (Demonic Resilience) that feels like it would be required. I would like retaliation to be a basline. It makes sense that if I am covered in spike hitting me would hurt you so thematically it fits as a basline part of the spell. Tanks should also not have to choose better threat options this should be part of the baseline kit as a tank.
  3. The spec tree feels like it is 1-2 points off from feeling really good. I would prefer to see Painbringer brought down to take 1 talent and drop to 5%. I would also like to see Charred Flesh brought down to 1 talent. I would like to see quickened sigil baselined/baked in and move cycle of binding up in itā€™s place.
  4. Hero Talents - Getting Aldrachi Reaver over Fel-Scarred a hero talent option feels bad to me. I never particularly cared for the AR talent playstyle and thematically havoc has more play centered around glaive abilities so it seems like this should have been the other way around.
  5. Felfire Fist/Doomsayer- Feels cool and thematic but only having it available once per pull / per fight feels bad. These feel like bad talents on longer single target fights and also pushes you off of chain pulling in mythic plus where you wouldnā€™t drop combat. I know there is a big goal to reduce button bloat but IMO this should be a usable 30 sec cd ability to empower infernal strike.

APEX TALENT -

The proc rate feels extremely low. Iā€™ve also never liked defensives tied to a random proc. This does become an offensive as well with Vengeful Beast but I prefer a more controllable playstyle. I would prefer something like:

  1. 1/1 Fracture now generates one additional soul shard
  2. 2/2 As is - would play well with the above
  3. 1/1 Increases your maximum soul capacity by 2

Increased Soul Capacity would also make soul barrier a more appealing talent for certain fights (consuming up to 8 fragments for more umph)

With this I would also like to see Vengeful Beast change to remove the additional seconds of main meta and instead cause Fel dev to activate meta for 5 seconds after channeling and keep the the 20% Meta damage aspect to SB, SC, and Fracture. This would take away the randomness of the meta procs and provide consistent controllable damage and defensives

SPEC TREE TO CLASS TREE CAPSTONES:

  1. I would like to see both Last Resort and Soul Carver moved to the Class Tree. All specs have Meta and Benefit from souls so IMO this should be options for all 3 and letā€™s face it: Wings of Wrath is not an interesting Capstone and Demonic Resilience should be back baseline.

MINDLESS RANT:

  1. Spirit Bomb - I donā€™t so much mind the move of spirit bomb to a cd (though losing multidirectional threat on call feels bad) but would like to see this at 20 seconds cd down from 25 or at least have a talent option to reduce the cd by 5 seconds or Soul Cleave reduces the CD on Spirit bomb by .5 seconds
18

My bars also feel empty. There was no reason to remove sigil of flame and sigil of spite. On top of this, soul generation feels terrible now with the loss of those. Itā€™s so much just standing around and doing nothing.

5 Likes
19

So I canā€™t play for more then 5 minutes at the moment, so its hard to get a super in depth read on stuff at the moment, but wanted to post something that I will come back later and update once I can actually play. I would also like to state I am not a high end havoc player, while I have played it on and off since legion and only recently started maining it, I am not the most experienced with it when it comes to the nitty gritty details and interactions, so if I have misunderstood how something functions or how things interact then I do apologize and would welcome any corrections in a respectful manor.

First thing I want to touch on is the class tree, while the class tree feels generally good, with some nice new talents for both utility, defensiveness, and throughput, there are a couple problem talents that need to be rethought out, one of which is specific to Havoc and Vengeance.

  • First one is Wings of Wrath, the new left side capstone to replace Collective Anguish. I donā€™t really think I need to explain why this is a problem, 40% glide speed is fine, it does feel nice, but a capstone? This talent either needs to go baseline or moved to the first gate and replaced with something far more valuable to justify pathing down to it. As is right now, pathing down to this capstone would already be costly as youā€™d not only have to give up another capstone path, but youā€™d also have to put 2 points into Erratic Felheart which also isnā€™t a very good talent considering its location and spot. One suggestion I have is to put back Collective Anguish here and lean fully into the fantasy of what that talent is, instead of it summoning one ally DH, have it summon two, the two that arenā€™t your spec, so for Havoc, it summons a Vengeance to do Fel Dev and a Devourer to do Void Ray. Personally, I think that would be absolutely sick to have all 3 DH beams going off at once no matter which spec you are, the visual impact that would have would be awesome and it would feel extremely power, and most importantly, it would feel like a capstone worth building too and putting a point into. It also really plays into one core of what Demon Hunters are, that they are a band of outcasts that stick together and watches each othersā€™ backs no matter what.

  • Next is Felbound, again, I donā€™t think I need to explain why this talent shouldnā€™t exist, 3% movement is absolutely nothing, especially with how accessible Pursuit is. With Pursuit or even Felfire Haste, you will never feel this and it will never be a consideration for a point, especially with where it is located. What is weird with this one is that the Devourer counterpart for this talent, Guile, feels so much better. Increases the range of your main melee ability and 2 utility spells, something you will feel when playing that spec, 3% movement will never be felt. Remove and replace Felbound please.

  • Also, while this isnā€™t a talent, I wanted to speak about it real quick, please put back Fel Eruption. Having a ST stun separate from the AoE stun was very nice and let you single out certain mobs in packs if you needed to save the AoE stun for a larger pack or multi caster pack, something that we wonā€™t really be able to do anymore. Plus losing such a cool visual spell is always a loss.

Now for removed abilities from Havoc specifically. My initial thoughts when I saw the abilities that were getting removed were mixed, I personally disliked Sigil of Flame and Spite, they felt weird to use in conjunction with the rest of the rotation due to how they functioned and how little impact they had on overall dmg, more so Flame then Spite in that particular instance. Flame was just extra fury gen that wasnā€™t really needed cause of how much fury was already being generated and Spite only played a role for Aldrachi. I had hoped with the removal of Flame, it would be replaced by something else, something more meaningful and fun to use but that hasnā€™t happened yet. With Spite, I would have bet that Aldrachi was going to change to something else to proc Reaverā€™s Glaives instead of souls, but again, that didnā€™t happen.

  • This has me concerned for a few reasons, one being the fury economy. With Flame gone and Felblade generating significantly less fury, the rotation from the few minutes I can play feels a lot slower then it does on live, a lot more sitting around waiting for something to proc, playing Immo reset helps this but only when you get good resets. This feels very counter to what DH identity is, its always been a more fast paced, high momentum class, but it doesnā€™t feel like that anymore, I canā€™t quite describe how it feels now, sluggish maybe, definitely slow, but whatever the right wording to describe it, it doesnā€™t feel good. I strongly think that Havoc needs one more rotational ability to feel good, Essence Break could be maybe be that with its new form if it was moved higher into the tree and had its CD halved and its duration increased. Iā€™m not sure what would be best here, but there needs to be something else.

  • Another thing I am concerned about is specifically Aldrachi, without Spite, the soul generation is a lot slower, which again slows down the rotation and results in a lot less Reaver Glaives which is a huge negative. It could make those windows feel more impactful but thatā€™s just not how it feels in practice. Either Soul Splitter needs to be buffed in chance, tied into an existing ability to proc instead of just being a random 4% proc, buffing the base chance of shattering a soul fragment, another existing ability in Havocā€™s kit needs to be able to generate soul fragments, or Reaverā€™s Glaive needs to just proc from something completely different then soul frags. Idk which of these would be best, but something needs to give because the current generation feels horrible.

  • Now for Demonā€™s Bite, at first I was just whatever about this going, I always took Demon Blades so I didnā€™t think twice about it but with how things are shaping up for Havoc right now, I wish I had access to this ability to try it with how other things have been changed. This was also a talent that many liked and picked over Blades to have more control over their fury generation which I respect, I think the choice needs to be there.
  • Next, Cycle of Hatred. Good god, please just delete this thing already. Having to build up a reduction in cool down for one of our core abilities by using said ability feels so bad, it causes misalignment with our other CDs, and puts us at a big disadvantage compared to other classes. If this was flat CDR tied to another ability or resource, like Fury spent reduces the CD of Eyebeam, then that would be great, but having CDR in this form is just dumb and feels bad. Its also incredibly confusing on how and when you will lose these stacks, no explanation is given in the tooltip so it leaves people confused on when theyā€™ll go away. Eyebeam going back to a 30 second CD with this being 2.5 seconds instead of 5 does feel a bit better, but still doesnā€™t feel great. Changing this talent to just give a flat, permanent reduction to EB CD or having it be CDR for EB by spending fury would be so much more preferable. Plz blizz, Iā€™m begging you.

Onto Glaive Tempest. While this is an interesting and honestly cool rework to Glaive Tempest, there are 2 glaring issues with how it functions right now that will make it a dead capstone.

  • One, the extra fury cost, with how little fury we are generating now, having Blade Dance cost 70 fury will put to much strain on fury, especially going into Meta windows with the BD reset. Cut the fury increase down significantly or just donā€™t have it increase fury cost at all.

  • Two, the only being able to proc on 4 targets hit is a massive issue, the places where this talent would be considered are AoE situations, but even then, most AoE situations, like M+ still have ST situations to them, and having a talent, let alone a capstone just not be active for those portions severely hurts the value of this talent. Even on ST, most AoE picked talents still have some use, they arenā€™t doing as much as their ST counterparts but they will still help in some way, GT will never because of the 4 target requirement. Cut this requirement out completely and just have it proc with every BD.

  • Essence Break, while the change to this ability makes it feel a lot less punishing, it also makes the ability a lot less powerful compared to its previous effect, it definitely is not capstone worthy at this point. I think this ability should be moved up higher into the tree, lower its dmg a bit, halve its CD, increase its duration, and make it generate Fury to have it take Sigil of Flames place in the rotation. I personally love this ability so seeing it further tweaked and moved into the core rotation would be awesome, imo.

I will probably add more to this list once I can actually play, and can test out the new apex talents. Iā€™m sure those will help some of these issues as well as make some of them worse from what I am reading about them.

4 Likes
20

Posting some structured Havoc Demon Hunter feedback after testing Midnight. Iā€™ll focus only on areas I believe need adjustment or reconsideration ā€” if something isnā€™t mentioned, itā€™s because I think itā€™s in a good state and doesnā€™t require changes.

Cycle of Hatred
The cooldown reduction (CDR) was halved, likely to reduce the desynchronization issues it causes. However, even at this lower value, the core problem persists.

Havoc often uses Eye Beam primarily as a trigger for Demonic, rather than for its damage, aligning it with other amplifiers like Inertia and Initiative. When those desync, gameplay flow becomes frustrating.

Suggestion:
Convert Cycle of Hatred into a flat 20-second reduction or replace its ramping mechanic with something that doesnā€™t manipulate cooldowns (for example, a damage-based effect).

Cooldown Synchronicity
Eye Beamā€™s new 30-second baseline cooldown desynchronizes it from other major buttons unless Cycle of Hatred is taken. This feels restrictive, as the rotation loses fluidity when cooldowns donā€™t align.

Current cooldowns:

  • Vengeful Retreat (Initiative/Inertia): 20s

  • Essence Break: 40s

  • Metamorphosis: 2m

For smooth gameplay, Eye Beam should align with either a 20s or 40s cycle. The 30s value effectively forces Cycle of Hatred into every build.

The Hunt
Spreading the DoT still requires physically moving through enemies, which feels unintuitive and awkward in both AoE and cleave situations.

Suggestion:
Allow the DoT to spread automatically in an AoE radius around the primary target rather than requiring manual movement.

Essence Break
By removing its damage amplifiers, Essence Break lost its synergy with Metamorphosis. Historically, this connection gave Havoc a strong burst window, aligning with WoWā€™s general design where burst is achieved through stacking cooldowns.

Suggestion:
Empower Essence Break while in Metamorphosis ā€” increase its direct damage and generate 3ā€“4 souls. An unique Meta-only animation could reinforce its identity as a burst button.

A Fire Inside
The proc feels frustrating to manage. Long chains delay openers, and heavy reliance on RNG for AoE throughput creates inconsistency.

Suggestion:
When A Fire Inside procs, it should trigger a second Immolation Aura within the same GCD at no additional cost.
Replace the flat 30% RNG proc with a ā€œdeck systemā€ ā€” a pseudo-random model ensuring one guaranteed proc within a certain number of casts. This would smooth damage variance without removing unpredictability entirely.

Aldrachi Soul Generation
In Midnight, Havoc lost access to Sigils, removing its guaranteed method of soul generation, being replaced with a 20% chance per Chaos Strike to generate one ā€” creating multiple issues:

  1. Overemphasizes Chaos Strike usage, reducing incentive to press Blade Dance.

  2. Increases soul RNG dependency, compounding uptime reliance from Wounded Quarry.

  3. Replaces guaranteed recovery tools with unreliable procs.

Suggestion:
Include Blade Dance in the soul generation talent and make it guarantee one soul per use to reduce variance and reward proactive play.

Aldrachi Reaver ā€“ General Concerns

Damage Amplification Overload:
The Aldrachi tree contains very strong damage windows via Reaverā€™s Mark and Thrill of the Fight (both potentially ~33% amplifiers for 10s). Given Midnight design vision of removing/lowering strong damage amplifiers, I believe these are out of line.

Please consider removing these amplification effects and focusing the tree on mechanical interplay instead.

Reaverā€™s Mark Bugs & Frustration:
This talent has long been plagued by issues ā€” dropping unexpectedly on target swaps and interacting awkwardly with Wounded Quarryā€™s soul generation. Even without these bugs, Reaverā€™s Mark makes target swapping very painful.

Thrill of the Fight:
Currently double dips with Reaverā€™s Glaive, incentivizing unintended rotations where players must cast Glaive during the previous window.

Suggestion:
Rework Aldrachi Reaver to focus on its combo theme. Replace Reaverā€™s Mark with a modified Chaos Strike that applies a mark for Wounded Quarry funneling. Remove the direct damage amp components from both Reaverā€™s Mark and Thrill of the Fight.

Souls & Art of the Glaive Persistence
Souls currently expire and vanish on death, which feels punishing. Managing timers for Art of the Glaive between pulls is awkward, especially in Mythic+.
Dying as Aldrachi Reaver effectively resets your entire setup, forcing long, RNG-dependent rebuilds.

Suggestion:
Remove the timer from Art of the Glaive and allow both souls and Reaverā€™s Glaive availability to persist through death. Souls could reset under the same conditions as Art of the Glaive does currently.

Metamorphosis Stun
In PvE, the automatic stun on Meta activation is disruptive due to DR interactions. Players often have to activate Meta away from mobs to avoid putting them on stun DR ā€” clearly unintended behavior.

Suggestion:
Remove or disable the Meta stun in PvE content and replace it with a more thematically fitting PvE effect.

Trail of Ruin
Currently, Trail of Ruin does not stack damage from multiple applications. With Apex now allowing two consecutive Death Sweeps after Eye Beam, this limitation feels even more restrictive.

Suggestion:
Allow Trail of Ruin to stack its damage if multiple applications overlap.

3 Likes
21

Then you are playing the class wrong and not using the correct fury gen abilities. Thousands of DH players use demon blade and have zero issues with fury gen. The class has plenty of methods of getting fury that does not require having to use demonā€™s bite. The ability was bad, felt bad to use, and glad it is gone.

5 Likes
22

I do not care it was wrong. I care that demon blades makes the spec less fun.
There was zero harm in it being a choice. You can keep playing optimally and be rude to others like me, and I could still have fun. Removing it just makes people like me, and the others in this thread and other threads who also preferred it, feel awful.

8 Likes