The only thing that I see here is a potential benefit to passive healing on what is a fairly gcd stressed healer in the arena.
Otherwise it just seems whatever?
After looking at this talent tree compared to the design of others, it really feels like Shaman either donât have their own designer or is the 3rd afterthought after they had to work on 2-3 other specs first, respectfully.
While these talents at least seem pretty good for the resto side, (because they have many spells in their toolkit they would use along riptide) they do nothing whatsoever to further ele gameplay in any fun way IMO. One of the biggest issues ele has right now is itâs RNG reliance on DRE procs to do any meaningful damage whatsoever compared to other classes.
These procs can either; 1. Just not happen when you want them to. 2. Not happen at all. 3. happen at the completely wrong times. Making Ancestors summon on another 8% chance from lava burst only while DRE is a 7% chance off of lava burst only feels like it would play terribly.
The main issue is that lava burst is a single target spell, that we can cleave with prim wave at a CAP of 6 targets. Lava burst also doesnât scale with crit at all unless we get a DRE proc which feels completely awful also. We want to spam this ability over all of our spenders even in Mass AOE. The only reason we even consider touching earthquake in itâs current pitiful state is because it unlocks more lava burst spam procs. Spamming 1 spell does NOT feel good, ignoring our spenders because theyâre so weak compared to hoping for more DRE procs does not feel good. These hero talents double down on the current clown casino gameplay.
Like many have mentioned, many ele players want to use ALL of its elements in its gameplay. Even though people voted for the S3 tierset, I feel itâs just because it was âeasierâ, but it does not equate to better gameplay than even S2 lightning whatsoever. We want to be able to use lava burst when its up because it is a cool spell, but then feel good to use Stormkeeper â chain lightning â earthquake and have it feel like its not a massive DPS loss to do what feels like it should make sense with the class.
Also, reducing the CD of Fire and Storm ele is a pitiful talent when we have surge of power literally already doing that on top of the cooldowns themselves being aggressively underwhelming. It is barely noticeable when you even have fire/storm ele out right now, it feels that bad as a 2.5 minute cooldown. Compare that to any other cooldown in the game and it makes no sense. The elementals themselves need some kind of buff or something exciting to do when pressed of they will remain literally the opposite of exciting to press as they are now.
On top of this, we severely need a defensive rework to even be considered comparable to other dps classes and this talent tree does nothing to alleviate this. When you look at the other hero class trees that BUILD upon their already stacked defensive capabilities and you compare it to Natureâs guardian doing 5% more maximum health or getting extra earth shield charges, it is merely laughable, with all due respect. We need something akin to earth shield for ele giving us damage reduction like restoâs does and losing the charges idea altogether. I would even take the burrow talent from PVP to PVE which could feel amazing to use in situations.
Our capstones in the Shaman tree are pretty bad too. Some classes have massive throughput increases in their class tree, while we get things like Tranquil air totem. There needs to be some kind of uniformity in design or some classes will just naturally outperform others. Nobody wants a capstone built around ancestral swiftness doing 10% more damage either, make the capstone at least do something to massively buff the proc chance for the ancestors or make all the ancestors overloadâŠor anything interesting at all.
As for the raid buff situationâŠeither give ALL the classes something to be useful in raid like a raid buff or take them all away. Why are we the only dps that offers nothing as useful as a raid buff when every other class offers something? It would make sense if we offered some other strength to make up for the fact that we donât have a raid buff, but we absolutely donât. Weâre bottom half of DPS, while being the squishiest dps, while offering nothing to raid that isnât a worse version of something else another class brings.
Unless it gets announced (like other classes got) that ele is getting a serious tree rework to fix our major issues on top of these hero talents, I still feel we will be for like the 4th expansion in a row in a woefully underwhelming position.
We need our uniqueness back to be considered useful for mythic raiding again, and we need a developer that cares enough to rework our significant issues enough to bring that uniqueness back. Ele feels like it has been an afterthought for literally multiple expansions in a row and sadly this tree feels like it doubles down on the terribly RNG ridden, 1 button spamming, paper defensives, lack of meaningful utility that ele players hated for a long while.
Please help us, Iâve been maining this class since WOD and loved it. Everything Iâm saying comes from a place of love for the spec. I just want to see it treated as well as other classes, and if the issue is that ele doesnât get enough development time because it isnât played by as many peopleâŠif the issues with the spec were meaningfully addressed and the class was modernized like other class reworks have done, I guarantee youâd see a lot more shaman players. Itâs all about the effort you are willing to put in to make it thrive again.
Thank you for your time 
15 Likes
As much as Iâm not a huge fan of the tree (at least in the current state) Iâm glad itâs not adding an additional button, and I sort of hope it remains that way. Button bloat is REALLY bad for shaman atm I think
7 Likes
I have more questions about ancestors and our talent trees in general. (From an ele perspective)
- What spells can our Ancestors cast?
- Are they going to mimic what we cast?
- Since they last for 6 seconds, will they be scaling with our haste? Realistically theyâll only be able to cast maybe 3 to 4 spells before expiration.
- If Ancestors reduce the cooldown of Fire Elemental and spawn from p-wave/lava burst, would fishing for those procs/DRE be more important than spenders (like our current situation)?
- Ancestral Swiftness makes Natureâs swiftness a required pick if it triggers Ancestors. Ele is already tight on talent choices in m+ because they are required to take Totemic Recall and Call of the elements for the 60 sec reduction on TR, because Ele has to play Liquid Magma Totem in m+ to spread flame shocks. Will Ancestors spread flameshock to help alleviate this issue? (getting ride of the cd on flameshock would help so much)
Why canât earthquake follow our target? There are other specs that have something baked in like this with their aoe ability. It would be nice if the hero talent capstone baked something into our spender, like Lightning Rod. Understandably, we wonât have the same game play style when hero talents are launched because weâll loose our tier, but it still feels like these talents are completely centered around fire. Were are the elements aspect?
The main reason weâre not absolute bottom of the barrel is because of our two piece triggering Surge of Power, is that going to be baked into the talent tree?
Further Beyond has never been used as a talent choice, itâs been recognized as degenerate game play, and has been heavily nerfed. Will these talent choices help us pick Further Beyond in the future?
Maybe there is use in PVP for double Storm Keeper, but itâs another capstone elemental has never used in pve. Maybe thatâs something for Stormbringer talents⊠Maybe stormbringer will replace earthquake with balance druids old hurricane. But itâs looking like another dead capstone with these talents.
One more, why is Chain Heal a required pick for Earth Shield? Iâm sure you have the data to see no one has ever casted this as a dps in a dungeon or raid. What if Earthen Communion made Earth Shield perm with Nature Harmony and caused it to heal for a extra idk 3%.
4 Likes
If youâre already recycling code and ideas due to lack of resources, there are plenty of better examples you could have chosen.
3 Likes
Can you ensure that summoned ancestors are of the same race as the player and possibly wear previous tier sets or are at least have diverse outfitsâŠjust to get the sense these are your ancestors from across the ages.
It would be odd if a goblin shaman âancestorâ comes to assist me as tauren.
2 Likes
Your great great great aunt had some kinks. Dont shame.
1 Like
Might be outlandish but why not just tie the ancestors to casts of flame shock for ele and riptide for resto? Then tune it around those spells. This wonât force certain unpopular talents being used. The talent that allows lava burst or riptide a chance to proc an ancestor can be altered to something else.
2 Likes
That is what it should be based around. The Ancestor should be helping you set up your Lava Bursts not Pwave.
Why does this talent shut up look like a Shaman version of Divine Image from Holy Priest?
4 Likes
Upon further reflection, I still love the theme of the ancestors and the tree, from a resto perspective. However, I feel the capstone is a bit bland. Perhaps something like: Ascendance draws in the essence of any active ancestors, consuming them to increase the power and duration of Ascendance.
Or: while Ascendance is active, you call a new ancestor every X seconds and their spells are empowered this way it would work nicely with Deeply Rooted Elements random Ascendance procs too.
The biggest issue with Farseer for Elemental isnât really the core concept of ancestors (which has potential - itâs a bit more than just another mastery, or could be with some tweakiung), but rather that it locks you into a very, very specific build in your spec tree. Build, not talent. You have to go fire + PWave. Sure, our present tier bonus locks us into that build anyways (which one can already argue is problematic), but what happens when we have a tier bonus like the last one? You then basically have to default to the other hero tree, or accept going Farseer and losing half the effectiveness of it.
And odds are that Stormbringer, the other ele hero option, is going to have the same problem in reverse if itâs Lightning Bolt centric.
Itâs horrible design. Our class tree being so polarized between left and right, lightning and fire, is the real issue. But if thatâs not going to be addressed, then our hero options need to be able to work with either. Otherwise, thereâs no choice. Lightning is the go to this tier? Great, you have to be Stormbringer because half of Farseer does nothing or is much less effective. Fire this raid? Then Farseer it is, like it or not, and good bye Stormbringer.
And sure, Stormbringer might not fall into this same trap, but itâs hard to see it being avoided. And even if it is, that still doesnât absolve Farseer of the issue.
(Also, not at all the biggest problem, but making the capstone turn Natureâs Swiftness into a dps cooldown is bad design, too. One, it makes the talent required in our spec tree - not a huge deal - but two, it all but means youâre no longer using NS for movement, because instead you need to use it on CD for damage. Not every button needs to have half a dozen different purposes. Let a movement CD be a movement CD.)
12 Likes
The entire tree seems almost completely uninspired. Like a lot of the other Hero talent trees have a theme they are going for, a certain kind of feel, and actually land it pretty well. Farseer seems like the only theme it has is âspawn Ancestor sometimesâ and then almost nothing else plays on that, or even on the abilities that spawn them.
If the Ancestors are primarily spawned by Primordial Wave and Unleash Life (which are already spells a lot of people have issue with), there really should be some more interaction with those spells, you know, in the rest of the tree. Like a shorter cooldown on Primordial Wave, or two charges of Primordial Wave or Unleash Life.
Ancestral Swiftness should already spawn an Ancient, with Natureâs Swiftness granting a second charge. How was that not obvious?
Offering From Beyond sounds pretty good for Elemental, potentially at least getting the elementals down to 2 minutes. But itâs basically a nothing talent for Resto. Who cares about 2 seconds off Riptide? What about taking 10 seconds off of Spirit Link, or Healing Tide, or Ascendance? Youâre absolutely not going to notice those 2 seconds off of Riptide.
Final Calling seems okay for Elemental, throwing an Elemental Blast, but the decaying shield for Resto seems pretty lame, unless it absorbs an awful lot.
Most of the other talents seem like basically justâŠwho cares? They basically change nothing. And thereâs all these nodes that could be healing AND damage for Resto, but for whatever reason Resto only gets the healing part. I still want to have the damage boost for when I do some damage, you know?
3 Likes
Please, no more Primordial Wave. Iâm so sick of Primordial Wave.
I love the concept of this tree, but can we please not be forced in to Primordial Wave again? Weâre already forced to take it in season 3 and now in season 4 of DF, if we actually want a functional tier set. Some variety would be nice.
11 Likes
100% agreed, farseer looks super boring.
Summoned add will act like mastery (but with a different visual i guess) that will be numerically tuned but has no play around or significative impact on a given fight.
There will be no âlet me summon my freaking ancestorsâ, its a small droplets of numbers. Just like ele has been balanced aroundâŠ
Plus the capstone is also boring, it basically is a reduce CD of Nature Swiftness by 15 secs and make it 10% buffed. yay⊠so excitingâŠ
I do think it will be easier to balance for Blizz since replicating spells already tuned for replication via mastery (aka that they hit like wet noodles but their damage over time will be ok due to overloads over time) will be easier.
2 Likes
Seriously Dev hope to be well-received with these talent, which are just a slight variation on the Season 3 set options?
I would like the next extension to take care of ele spec properly. But looking at this talent, I donât think thatâs going to happen.
They donât want to spend any time or money on an ele spec, as they have been doing.
1 Like
Greetings Dev Team,
I know some parts of the interactions are not fully explained to us but I do have some concerns for Restoration Farseers.
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The RNG aspect of ancestors procâd from Call of the Ancestors and Routine Communion. It would be thematic and more useful if the price chance increased based on the health level of your target. The Ancestor coming to aid in the time of need. This is already in shamans wheel house because of Deep Healing and would make the spirits value more consistent. I understand that Resto will generally get Ancestor Value from the keystone and capstone activations but the Riptide price will be a feel bad moment if it procs at the end of a fight and the spirit haunts you doing nothing for the full duration. It would be appreciated if the procs are weighted to better hit an expected value.
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The value of Ancient Fellowship and Latent Wisdom seems more like a math problem than a playstyle choice. I might have thought another on death trigger for the ancestors might be preferable such as changing Latent Wisdom to grant Maelstrom/Mana regeneration on death or having the buff active when an ancestor is active.
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Elemental Reverb and Offering from Beyond seems to overlap and diminish the value of one another for Restoration. CD reduction on such a short CD spell has limited value to start. This should effect another spell.
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Natureâs Harmony feels rather weak. Ignoring times when I believe it does not activate as it should, the bonus would be improved by adding a damage reduction effect when Natures Guardian activates.
That my current concerns for Restoration Farseers.
2 Likes
A few additional observations concerning Farseer for Restoration Shaman:
âOffering From Beyondâ for restoration seems pretty weak. As another poster mentioned earlier, reducing the cool down on a spell with an already short cool down feels bad. I would recommend a cool down reduction to either Ancestral Guidance, Ascendance, Healing Tide Totem, Mana Tide Totem, Spiritwalkerâs Grace, or even Astral Shift (as a defensive).
Earthen Harmony providing 3 more charges of Earth Shield is so beyond weak. I canât emphasize this enough. Itâs a QoL talent to a spell that should not have charges in the first place. I recommend that this allow for a third Earth Shield to be placed on a party member.
Spiritwalkerâs Momentum is a nice talent. Kudos on that.
I canât reiterate enough how bad it will feel to tie our keystone abilities to Unleash Life and Ancestral Swiftness. This class suffers from so much button bloat, these changes will only make it worse. Additionally, these two abilities are rarely worth the GCD. If UL provided substantially more healing in addition to current benefits, it might be worthwhile. If Ancestral Swiftness is removed from the GCD and permitted to macro in with another spell (Healing Wave for example), it might be worthwhile, otherwise not really.
2 Likes
I had thought of this too, but be careful what you wish for - weâre already spending ~4 GCDâs a minute to cast a spell that has absolutely no feedback (Earth Shield), this would increase that to ~6 times a minute, which is about how often you press Chain Heal at the moment.
I do agree though, it does need changed. All of the âchoice nodesâ arenât really choices at all, and could use some attention.
1 Like
I think it would be situational how often you have to refresh it, as party members arenât taking damage as often as tanks. The dr and 20% increased healing would be worth it.
Theun, at the risk of sounding like a fan boy. I greatly appreciate your guides and shaman advocacy.
2 Likes