Feedback: Evokers

I love the new animation you guys gave us for Glide in Visage Form!

It’s so subtle, but it is perfect. It makes it feel like we actually are gliding, rather than the stiff look before.

However, may I request that you guys extend this new animation to if you use Hover in Visage Form before you switch to Dracthyr?

Right now it just throws you forward in the stiff form. Even if you made it so we hover on the dust we use for Glide if we use it in Visage Form would be better.

16 Likes

Based on changes from the 7/26 Alpha build - here’s some more feedback.

I’m thrilled that the feedback was implemented to change the penultimate nodes in the Preservation tree to be two point nodes - that feels so much better! Also really happy to see the 6 essence talent make it into the spec tree as well - would be happier to see it in the class tree, but thrilled to see it either way.

Exhilarating Burst - the new position of this ability feels bad, it’s gated entirely behind Emerald Communion and it’s subsequent talent to buff it. Which doesn’t feel great - I said in my previous feedback that this spell feels like a pvp button, and I don’t see it being something that you take in raid, but Exhilarating Burst feels like a mandatory raid talent. There’s no obvious synergy here, and I’d like to see it swapped with something like Lifebind - a button that feels like it would be played normally in PvP.

Essence Burst seems to be bugged in some instances/ Characters - the tooltip on Wowhead, and on one of my three evokers on Alpha, shows that it only stacks once, but on my other two evokers (and a few people I’ve collaborated with) it still shows that it stacks twice. I’d like to see it stay as stacking twice, so I’m not sure if this is a bug or a feature at the moment.

Spiritbloom - with Spiritbloom’s echo interaction being gutted, the button feels more normal in terms of power, and it still feels like what you’ll press the majority of the time in small group scenarios for healing - m+ and pvp(pvp is a guess). However, it’s now fully possible that you could ignore this button in a raiding scenario - the mana cost now feels too high for the output that it provides, and you may not even invest the talent point into buffing the button just due to it’s power level. However, because of where Exhilarating Burst is located, you have to take it. That makes it a 3 talent point investment to get this absurdly powerful ability. Is it worth it? Maybe. Does it feel good? No.

Convergence - an interesting ability, and may make temporal anomaly worth pressing, but it feels like a large investment to buff a currently lackluster ability. Temporal Anomaly feels like it moves too fast, and doesn’t heal enough. Buff the ability a little bit more and we might get to a point where it’ll feel worth pressing. Also make it go slower, this thing is running a marathon to get away from anyone who needs healing.

As a whole, for raid healing specifically, Bronze buttons almost unanimously feel under tuned. The exception being, naturally, Rewind, your raid CD. Reversion feels undertuned, Echo, now with the SB interaction being removed, feels weak in an AOE healing environment, and Temporal Anomaly feels undertuned.

Energy Loop still feels like a useless talent - I’m glad we don’t have to take it, but it would feel better in general if it just…wasn’t there.

Currently the middle of the talent tree feels a little lackluster, and I’d like to see some buffs to things like Lifeforce Mender, Golden Hour, Time of Need, Lifebind - none of these abilities feel great to take, and in a lot of cases I’m just putting points into Lifeforce Mender to unlock the 20+ talent point area. If you could move some of the power from there to the middle, it would feel a little bit more balanced overall.

Overall making a lot of changes into the right direction, there are just some more changes that can be made to make the spec feel even stronger.

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I’ve probably made too many posts about soar and the cd needing to be reduced, but the more I think about it, the more I start to think, why can’t it be a 30 second cooldown? What does it hurt? Who is harmed by it? And the more I really start to think that it should just be a short cooldown, not minutes, but like, 30 seconds. I think it would be up when I needed it and still wouldn’t be completely spammable.

There just doesn’t seem to be a strong justification, or at least one I can think of, of having it remain at 5 minutes.

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I think this would be a large imbalance outside of the Dragon Isles though. It would also make Dragon Riding, especially early on, feel much worse. At the start, Dragon Riding has a fairly slow regen. I think this would lead to people wanting to choose Soar over Dragon Riding and make Dragon Riding feel like a chore.

1 Like

Soar only allows you to leap once and push forward twice.

Dragonriding upgrades to allow you to do a ton more than that.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Dracthyr having a slight upper hand for the first few days of the expansion considering they are from the Dragon Isles.

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Not only this, but what “imbalance” does it cause outside of the Dragon Isles? People playing Evoker can travel slightly faster to some places? If you’re playing an Evoker, you probably -want- to Soar because riding a dragon is one thing, but BEING a dragon is another thing. And either way you’re gonna be limited in your moves every time you soar.

You can get to a treasure faster? You can get to a world quest maybe somewhat quicker? None of these things are “imbalanced” - it provides no material benefit.

Soar is not a combat trait and cannot be used as a combat trait - and it is disabled in all of the places that it COULD be genuinely broken. The CD only serves as a way to reduce how fun the feature is overall.

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The issue still remains with Soar outside of the Dragon Isles. From a game design aspect, you also need to keep in mind how this will work in future expansions. If WoW goes back to the traditional “no flying until xyz is achieved” model then Soar would be greatly overpowered. Sure they could disable Soar when flying is not unlocked but that could also be confusing.

Soar also gives Dracthyr the added advantage of getting to higher places without using your Dragon Riding resources. This gives you a rather big advantage early on when your DR resources are limited by having the height advantage that other classes won’t have.

I think the best thing they could do is to add cooldown reset crystals in the starting zone near all the quest hubs. This solves the long-cd issue for the intro quest area. Outside of that, Dragon Riding is your main form of transportation.

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Can you explain what exactly is “overpowered” about this. If “being able to fly when there is no flying” is overpowered - it’s gonna be “overpowered” with or without the cooldown.

Your proposed solution of disabling Soar until flying is unlocked is likely the best solution if you’re trying to keep people out of the sky. They already disable Soar in dungeons that take place “outside.”

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But it’s not.

It can’t be used in no fly zones.

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In regards to areas outside of the Dragon Isles (pre-dragonflight zones), if you remove/reduce the cooldown on Soar then Dracthyr will be flying around the map at 950% speed while everyone else is stuck at 310%. That’s a pretty sizable difference.

Within the Dragon Isles, alternating Soar and DR allows you to get to Dragon Glyphs (used to power up your DR) much quicker. If Soar had an even lower cooldown, it would only make sense to use a Dracthyr to get your account-wide Dragon Glyphs, from an optimization standpoint at least.

See above.

EDIT: I get that I’m clearly in the minority here. I’m just trying to think of it from a broader audience point of view. Dracthyr are already fairly strong compared to other races. Also keep in mind that Familiar Skies is not yet implemented. That will give them another 20% movement speed.

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Can you specify what exactly this difference does in practice? In what way does it provide an advantage to Evoker players that hurts the experience for non-evokers? When we’re talking about something being “overpowered” - it needs to do something that actively hurts the experience for someone else.

This kind of thing is what I’m looking to explore with these questions. Can you elaborate on how you would use Soar and DR to get Dragon Glyphs faster?

I’m trying to figure out if “this is actually a problem” or “person goes a little faster than me :(” is at the heart of this impulse.

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Sure, take my above example of Dracthyr flying at 950% vs everyone else at 310%. In World PVP areas and Warmode, this would be a clear advantage.

Even outside of PVP, it would make everyone feel worse traversing the world knowing they are not on their Dracthyr. Again, the difference between DF/Soar and Traditional Flying is quite large. Imagine harvesting old nodes on a Dracthyr vs anything else. Moving from node to node would be vastly superior on a Dracthyr, thus giving a clear advantage. The 5-minute cooldown helps keep this in check.

Sure, many of the Dragon Glyphs hidden throughout the world are at very high heights. Heights that take more than 3 Vigor to get to. Using Soar you can boost most of the way up then swap to Dragon Riding and use your Vigor to get to the Glyph. Sure, you could still achieve this with just Dragon Riding waiting for the Vigor to recharge halfway through but it’s much faster when you alternate Soar and Dragon Riding. Like my above comments, the 5-minute cooldown helps keep this in check. Any less and you might as well just use Soar most of the time.

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Could this not simply be disabled in World PvP areas? What advantage does it give a player that say, a night elf druid shadowmelding and popping flight form doesn’t get? Or a Demon Hunter who has the ability to traverse terrain far quicker than anyone else? It does not give you combat utility - anything that might have objectives (thinking like Wintergrasp or w/e) would have it disabled for certain. At most it lets you escape faster once you’re out of combat.

I’m not so sure. If I were to be farming herbs on say, my dracthyr. Each node requires me to aim and keep momentum - runs the risk of clipping something and falling to the ground. vs say - farming herbs on my druid. Which is just auto-run and gather without having to get out of flight form. There are no timed nodes in this game so the speed at which you get to nodes is less important, and with the way that the flying functions I’m not fully certain that the heavy start-stop you’d have to do would outpace the ease of using a mount or a druid form that lets you gather and stay in the air.

I’ll grant that some people may feel weird that they are slower but I am not fully convinced that this is a “clear advantage.”

I think this is probably the most compelling argument against removing the CD, but even then I wonder how much more “efficient” it would be than just regular dragon riding. And even then - the way I understand the glyphs is that they are largely cosmetic (correct me if I’m wrong). Which kind of goes to my original point:

If there is no real combat utility, what actual harm is it that some people may do something a little faster than others when that activity has no bearing on multiplayer gameplay. I main DH these days and the amount of things I’ve just straight up broken \ avoided just because I play a class with double jump and glide (+ fel rush) seems like a much greater disparity than an out-of-combat movement skill.

I think Dragon Riding having a talent tree \ in depth customization \ more “skills” and “abilities” than soar ever will gives it plenty of reason to use it over Soar, but there is something to be said about letting people enjoy the “I am a dragon I can fly” fantasy without limits if it has no bearing on power progression \ combat, no?

Thanks for the examples - I’m mostly trying to understand the opposition to it because at least from my perspective, nothing about Soar gives you a competitive advantage over other players in a way that will detract from their gameplay experience. Most of it just feels kind of arbitrary and limiting for the sake of putting a limit on it.

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Just going to add to this last one, the Dragon Glyphs are how you earn the “points” needed to upgrade your Dragon Riding Skill Tree. So it would be advantageous to use Soar to trivialize acquiring these points.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I’m not against fun being added to the game. Soar is an incredible ability and it would feel great as a Dracthyr to fly all the time but I really think this has some bigger advantages over every other class. Maybe if they removed some of the other racial abilities it could balance out but even without Soar, Dracthyr are a pretty strong race. The only saving grace right now is that Dracthyr are class-locked to Evokers. Still, Dracthyr’s racials are much stronger than NE/BE Demon Hunters are locked to.

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I wonder what it would look like if Soar was able to be upgraded too? I don’t know if tis being manually adjusted along with the dragon riding or if its actually an offshoot of that system on the backend but if its the latter I could see that working really well and giving dracthyr some REALLY fun progression.

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Honestly, the best thing they could do IMO would be to make Soar a purely cosmetic feature. Have it use Dragon Riding and all of its mechanics but when using Soar, you are flying just yourself. With that change they could remove the cooldown completely. The only issue would be in the areas outside of Dragon Isles, but honestly, they should just allow Dragon Riding everywhere.

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So I have been thinking about both of the evoker specs after 2 resets of alpha and I have a few points of concern/feedback.

For devastation a lot of the talents in the tree are based around empowering abilities which is fine however my concern is with the ones that incentivize max empowerment (tyranny, leaping flames for fire breath, power swell) I feel like these three things all incentivize u to max empower, living flames being the least impacted cuz you can choose your target number, but having a focus on max empower for large impact nodes like tyranny and power swell kind of defeats the purpose of empower spells and different thresholds because you would almost always want to get the full cdr benefit, which basically turns these spells into a 4 sec cast. Regarding that, most spells that have that long of a cast have something to make them cast faster (conflagarate for destro, hot streaks for pyroblast). Tip the scales is in line to do this however it is a 2 min cd whereas the time you would want it the most is during your cd dragons rage which with tyranny ends up as a 1 min cd. This is especially impactful during the red side focus where your fire breath cd getting reduced a bunch by feed the flames. Other than that I would like to see dragons rage get some sort of interaction with disintegrate because right now in cds you are spending probably roughly 75% of the time just channeling disintegrate in single target. My only other concern is that everburning flame as a capstone is rather weak since you already have feed the flames which synergizes with leaping flames more and maintains your dot just as well as everburning flame.

In summary for devastation in list of priority:

  1. Max empower nodes (power swell, tyranny, leaping flames) changed so that there is more reason to use empower spells at lower ranks.
  2. Everburning Flame reworked due to redundancy of feed the flames
  3. Tip the scales moved to a 1min cd for better feeling during dragons rage, since you will get cdr on dragons rage.
  4. dragons rage interaction for pure single target (disintegrate)

Regarding preservation I really like the class in general and i love echo as a concept however due to echo and emerald blossom being essence abilities you can basically only do one or the other, and losing the interaction between spiritbloom and echo means you are locked in to a emerald blossom build for raid, which would be fine however there are other classes that are already doing the niche of stacked healing. The emerald blossom build for raid is a more raw throughput focused build which is a niche that already has other healers, but you are doing this with less range. The other build that is no longer possible for raid was the echo spirit bloom interaction where you would’ve worked on burst healing a lot of people at once constantly. Yes this was currently over tuned, but you can add a mechanic to spirit bloom where its longer cd the more empower levels you add. This wouldn’t affect mplus because you could echo one target or two and then just lvl 2 the spirit bloom to hit everyone in the group still. I would love to see this interaction added back in because this was a unique playstyle and would add a reason to bring evoker to raid even with its lower range because its a different type of healing profile. It would also not be good on mechanics like lords of dread swarm or dausegne teleports because you do that once then you wouldn’t have much else after it, so it still had a glaring weakness. If this interaction is not in the game I feel as though preservation evoker may get overlooked in raid due to a healing profile that is covered by other classes with more range. Echo in its current form has very little value in raid because you can only get 4-5 out before they start falling off so you can only get up to 5 single target heals off in raid using echo, which even in a 10 man only covers half the raid. I think having two different healing profiles available for evoker is a really good talent design.

The other big thing on the preservation evoker is the bronze spells in general are very weak for raid because they are all single target aside from rewind which is your big cd and then temporal anomaly which currently has a very high mana cost attached to it. Aside from those two spells though you have echo which doesn’t do much by itself in raid because it is only single target and then reversion which is just a single target HoT. I would also like to see sacral empowerment work on a charge system where its based on number of temporal compressions consumed for quality of life just so if you don’t have full temporal compression stacks that you don’t feel as punished for casting the empower spell.

summary of preservation in list of priority:

  1. Spirit bloom and echo interaction coming back for a unique healer profile as well as some adjustments to spirit bloom to compensate for the power (cd increase based on empower or set healing amount divided evenly kind of thing would be my ideas)
  2. if not an interaction with spirit bloom and echo add some way for echo to hit AoE targets to make it viable in raid for a second raid healing style rather than only an emerald blossom focus.
  3. temporal anomaly mana cost reduced (currently too high of cost for its cd and throughput)
  4. temporal compression/ sacral empowerment quality of life charge system

Overall I love the class and I think its super fun and I can’t wait to main it, but just has a few small changes that could really solidify the specs.

2 Likes

And please, explain where this is a problem?

I’ll wait.

Who does this negatively impact? Like, for real. Oh no, someone is flying faster than you every couple minutes, the horror.

By that logic, they should remove the 310% flying, because not everyone has it.

This argument is no different than the anti-flying arguments: “I can’t enjoy using my ground mounts because other people are flying.”

It’s immature.

And to be frank, Dracthyr feel weird riding a mount in general. I think they should add a Running Wild-style racial for them that lets them function as a flying mount. That way Soar can retain a 5 minute cooldown, but still let us actually fly like people want.

Then just have the starting zone let us use the mount racial to get places. (It’s very weird we don’t get a mount from the starting zone)

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I guess Blizzard agreed that Soar was “overpowered” compared to other classes in the game as they’ve just nerfed Soar by 30%.

I don’t really want to argue about it, I also disagree that all of the points I’ve raised are “immature” as you claim. Again, Blizzard seems to agree that it was too strong as is.

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I disagree with the nerf to the Soaring ability. If anything, I feel it needs to be buffed. The 5 minute cooldown in the starting area is atrocious and makes the experience unfun and unengaging.

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