Can we trade our devs with some of the ones working on season of discovery? I constantly see them pumping out updates to that subset of this game. Maybe then our class wont hit launch as a dumpster fire
5 Likes
On your tree Feline Swiftness, Improved Swipe, Gale Winds, Innervate, Starlight Conduit, Tigers Dash and Rising Light all seem to be dead ends. The way Cyclone and Forest Walk gatekeep good talents I don’t like. Not sure what Improved Swipe does, but might want it on Feral and being behind Guardian aff isn’t great. Looks like all of the affinities might lock some good passives. (Though Balance aff, might just become the “typhoon” talent for guardian and feral) Killer Instinct locking Skull Bash and by extension Tiger’s Dash, isn’t great.
I think they just need to do the latter. Core rotational abilities don’t belong the in the class tree. Barely any other class has them at all.
It seems you’re class tree is mostly a reshuffle, and as a reshuffle I guess it’s fine, maybe even good with the limitation of what the talents are. But I still don’t think it would make a good class tree compared to other classes.
1 Like
1.) Balance Affinity is made to give the caster; sunfre, starsurge, and typhoon. Iconic Balance druid only abilities it is why I put it as that affinity.
Unfortunately, I believe that was done so to feel different as when you lock in Boomkin you are already learning that by default as it is currently when you pick a specialization you learn talents from the base tree based off what you pick.
2.)
If Feral and Guardian feel gate kept selecting it as the first node then I would ask you what is the solution? Have it baked in? I have it at the very top so if you NEED it you can just pick it from the top.
Then if you see it on the tree you can pick Astral influence. If you do not want Typhoon as Feral and Guardian you can select Restoration Affinity which would help sustain and you can get yourself a Yseras Gift to self-heal and sustain.
2.) I see what you mean by that but in my head when you select Feral or Guardian you get 2 points preselected in the base tree. ( Kinda how rn in DF when you select Guardian you auto-learn Thrash and Frenzied Regeneration.
Same concept my plan was when you learn Feral or Guardian. You auto learn Guardian and Feral affinity by either of those choices for your free node.
- Improved Swipe does 100% increase dmg swipe.
3.)
Killer Instinct, and Tiger Dash are notable Feral only concepts.
If you are a Boomy or resto picking these talents not only increases your armor but also increases physical damage.
A similar sacrifice with at least some mutual benefit ( more armor is the mutual benefit )
increased physical dmg for boomy is the sacrifice. ( But physical dmg aides cat weaver remember)
Skull bash is completely optional.
- Feline Swiftness is at the top so selection is Ease. locked behind one talent instead of the current 10 points to open the node and the extra 2 needed to fill. xD
Tiger Dash can be moved I can see that perhaps it can be moved to the node “Wilderness Techniques” as an additional mobility; learned.
4.)
Maybe I can move Forest walk down where natures vigil and Ursol’s vortex/ mass entangle up.
Cyclone, definitely could be moved to maybe toss improved rejuvenation as baseline.
- But the issue I had honestly. Is I tried to replicate the placement nodes. The reason why is because we get these spells at certain levels. Unfortunately with balance in mind we cannot have a lvl 15 druid having mass entangle, cyclone, and all these movement and speed and control abilities because it simply wouldn’t be fair to other classes in low lvl pvp and pve.
But its important to note you have far more talent availability. So even being locked as it feels like you have a surplus amount of talents.
Whilst the current iteration in dragonflight it is a sacrifice. You can feel it with each expenditure of each point. But in my tree I moved things around and lowered the cost; you are not punished for it as hard and heavily and you can make your desired build. If you would like you can tally it yourself on paint remember you get 31 talent points ( 2 FREE AUTO LEARNED POINTS AS WELL). 
But nonetheless, I’ll take a look but I’ll wait for your response before I do. Fiddle with it on paint
- The dead ends are the result of you fulfilling that node that concept. Pushed away so it doesn’t hurt you when making your choices. Nearly all dead ends are far from locking you into a pathway and placed with ease to select.
2 Likes
I’m do think Typhoon needs to be in the tree, though probably further down. Having these utility spells be granted to you as baseline doesn’t really fit with the way other trees seem to be designed. My solution would be to have a radical new look on what should and shouldn’t be in the class tree. And any ability that doesn’t work for all specs gets replaced.
I’m assuming that would carry over to Brutal Slash, in which case you definitely want it as Feral, in which case it shouldn’t be behind Frenzied Regen. Frenzied Regen being a follow up from Feral doesn’t make sense.
Killer Instinct is Feral and Guardian, yes. The big reason Tiger’s Dash isn’t chosen is that it’s always a choice with Wild Charge. As Resto and Balance I would love Tiger’s Dash if I was able to get it along side Wild Charge.
That frankly does nothing. (Except resto cat weaving) Almost all AoE damage is magical, and if you somehow get auto’ed something else’s gone wrong and you should probably GTFO.
Honestly even if I’m not cat weaving, in M+ as both resto and balance I would really like Skull Bash. Having to move in melee sucks, but at least it’s better than the 1 min CD for Balance, and nothing else for resto. The only other healer w.o an interrupt is priest.
Feline Swiftness is really good, it being a two point investment and then with nowhere to go feels bad in the TWW class tree, and it would feel bad here as well.
Yup, this is true. Which is why the top of the tree needs a whole rework in what talents are there. Look at other classes, (Pala, monk and Shaman specifically) to see what kinda things can be done there.
Like I said before, if you really need to keep to the talents as they are in the TWW class tree (or mostly) you’re always gonna run in to similar issues. I don’t think the class tree needs a reshuffle with different pathing. I think it needs a ground up completely new design. Maybe that can involve the affinity nodes as the starter node for each spec. (Poor M+ resto having to pick 3 of them vs everyone else with only their own they want).
Maybe it can be a mage situation with 1 central node that everyone gets. Maybe a shaman situation where there’s still a couple core spells that you can path around when necessary. Maybe it’s best to go with Paladin where the start is more “niche”, but useful for everyone options. But in the end I think the important thing is that all starter nodes need to be A) useful for every spec, or B) completely avoidable (e.g Chain Heal for Shaman).
Actually the same goes for pretty much every talent. No more Killer/Nurturing Instinct either unless you can go around it easily.
2 Likes
Good concept: check
Good ideas: check
Easily readable: check
Blizzard:”well theirs only one thing left to do” moves to trash bin
1 Like
Balance Druid Follow-up Feedback to July 2nd Changes
Hello again! Blizzard has posted a sizable set of tuning updates to Balance Druid, both in regards to the base spec and to both of the Hero Talent Trees. Below we are looking at how these changes impact the spec and how they look in context to the feedback we provided a few weeks ago. This post will be written within the scope of highlighting realistic goals/changes for the remainder of this development cycle, as we are likely getting too close to launch for significant 11.0 changes. For the longer-term, more full picture feedback that is still relevant, see the previous post here.[Feedback: Druids - #220 by Fowlty-illidan]
The Spec Tree/General Spec Spells
I won’t go into detail on each change, but rather stay on bigger themes. For the details of all changes, see the blue post here. [The War Within Beta Development Notes - #12 by Linxy]
1. Astral Smolder Point Reduction
- As stated in our previous feedback, reduction of 2 point talents to 1 pointers in our tree is desperately needed so this was a welcome change in the right direction.
- While this alone doesn’t open up much build diversity in most circumstances (due in part to the talent below it being purely passive), it signals a recognition that the tree is too congested overall.
2. Convoke the Spirits Changes
- Convoke preferring to cast spells at the current target is a very good change, allowing us to use it for priority damage more effectively.
- Convoke casting more Starsurges is likely meant to be a buff, but currently the Wraths cast by Convoke do more damage than Starsurge due to interactions with Dreamstate and the numerous talents that are buffing Wrath.
3. Damage contribution of Wrath/Starfire
- A major concern for the community throughout beta has been the significant increase in relative power of our generators vs. spenders. It is very close in overall damage to never cast spenders outside of stacking Starlord, despite the buffs from last week to Starsurge and Starfall.
- Buffs to talents like Umbral Intensity and nerfs to Power of Goldrinn continue this trend, creating an outsized gameplay focus being on hard casting generators. This is generally not considered an enjoyable playstyle relative to feeling like spenders are impactful.
4. General Buffs to Underperforming Talents/Abilities
- Most of the buffs this build were to under-performing talents that weren’t seeing play in most builds. Numbers/testing are still coming in on how impactful this tuning will be, but first signs are that nothing has meaningfully changed yet.
- Regardless, it is promising to see movement toward making more competitive choices.
Hero Talent Changes
1. Lunar Calling
- This talent got a sizable buff, potentially making it the premier choice in all content when playing Elune’s Chosen.
- Forcing us into casting Starfire in single target feels bad due to the longer cast time and lower overall Astral Power Generation compared to Wrath.
- While aiming to lean into the lunar theme of the hero tree, it significantly impacts gameplay in a negative way.
2. Other Buffs
- The remaining buffs were largely to damage of Elune’s Chosen which was falling behind Keeper of the Grove. It seems that most Balance players would still prefer for EC to be the baseline pick.
Current High-Impact Bugs/Interactions
1. Convoke Inconsistent Treatment of Buffs
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Spells cast by Convoke the Spirits have inconsistent interactions with other buffs that we have.
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Dreamstate currently is not consumed, but buffs all Wraths cast by Convoke, making them deal more damage on average than Starsurge.
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Wraths from Convoke do not proc Astral Smolder or Umbral Embrace
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Convoke is eating Touch of the Cosmos and Starweaver procs when it casts them, preventing you from gaining the benefit of the free cast they provide.
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These inconsistencies create some likely unintended clunky gameplay loops.
2. Touch of the Cosmos/Starweaver
- When both procs are active, a single Starfall/Starsurge consumes both buffs. This causes these potentially exciting talents to lose value when taken together.
Summary:
Positive Changes: Astral Smolder point reduction, Convoke the Spirits focusing 1 target, and general buffing of underperforming talents.
Negative Aspects: Starfall/Starsurge continue to feel unimpactful relative to generators, Lunar Calling creates a more bland playstyle when talented, and certain 2-pointers still prevent meaningful build diversity.
Action Items:
- Review and Reduce 2-Point Nodes: Continue reducing the number of 2-point talent nodes to enhance build flexibility.
- Adjust Power of Spenders: Shift more power away from generators over to spenders as a way to make them feel more impactful.
- Reconsider Lunar Calling: Review Lunar Calling’s impact on gameplay, as Elune’s Chosen would be a very popular choice thematically and, if not for this talent, gameplay-wise as well.
- Continued Tuning Adjustments: Continue ensuring talent choices are balanced to offer real gameplay diversity.
I again appreciate you taking the time to read the thoughts gathered by the community and look forward to continued iteration and testing as we prepare for The War Within!
21 Likes
The problem with resto in m+:
Follow me on this adventure for a bit, it will only take a moment. Resto’s problem isn’t tuning, its our cooldowns. But, lets look at tuning for a moment:
Below is the absolute perfect world where we have each and every one of our hots that influence mastery all active at the same time for the entire duration of each hot. (This perfect world doesn’t exist but, for this argument, im assuming the absolute max healing possible)
Regrowth: 300k total
Rejuv: 250k
Lifebloom: 330k with bloom
Spring Blossoms: 15k
Cultivation: 20k
Wild Growth: 165k
Cenarion Ward: 420k
Grove Tending: 155k
In total these hots will provide 10 Mastery stacks.
Lets again, for the sake of numbers, take a much higher mastery rating then we will probably have, 15%. This 15% mastery with 10 Mastery stacks means our heals will do an extra 150% healing for a grand total of…
4.15m healing. In this perfect world that doesn’t exist, with mastery stacks we probably wont have, with every hot available on a target, we still dont have the healing to fully heal a single person.
So tuning is a serious issue for druid…but not what’s going to make our class suffer. Our cooldowns are absolutely terrible. Lets take a moment to look at other classes signature cooldowns. Shaman have Ascendance which is now 2min that can absolutely obliterate healing; Paladin have wings also on a 2min or 1min which also greatly moves health bars; Holy Priests have Apotheosis on a 2min which gives them immense throughput through CD reduction. Just a few examples off the top of my head.
And what do druid have: Tree Form on 3min (lowered through treant deaths). Tree form in its current state is ONLY good on live because we can bank clearcasting charges for a big damage event and use the instant regrowths to proc our set bonus and really push healthbars. Its not tree form doing all the healing, its the set bonus… that we are losing. So we are left with Instant Regrowths that hit for 200k, Rejuv which will heal 400k over12s, and…thats it. Oh 15% healing, lets not forget that. You can tickle some healthbars with this cooldown, thats about it.
Now lets look at our other cooldowns…just kidding we have no more. Flourish is a bastard remnant of s2 greatness that is still subpar to our nerfed photosynthesis, Tranquility will heal 20% of a healthbar that we have to placate for, and Heart of the wild is limited to just one player unlike every other healer who cleaves their damage to healing abilities. (and its not a smart heal so someone at 40% is equally to be healed as someone at 90%)
You can tune the heck out of our class but unless you fix our cooldowns we will be about as useful as a pedal powered wheelchair.
Also just want to point out I got an over 3m crit heal from healing surge on the shaman just now
3 Likes
Here are my suggestions , starting with the smallest to bigger possible changes. At the core is the idea of not just speeding up our ramp some but also making it feel good to press the buttons instead of the current feeling of writing with the wrong hand we do to enter the proper eclipse.
One - I think having moonfire and sunfire contribute towards eclipse would be a large move in the right direction. At the very least let them count as the initial or primer and then you choose the state with wrath or starfire.
Two - I understand the starfire leading to wrath and wrath leading to starfire creates a fantasy of balance but it feels wrong. If starfire gave lunar and wrath solar eclipse then it is a cleaner ramp - at least your builders do not feel like miscasts.
Three - borrow from the monks where you get a significant buff for alternating wrath and starfire akin to monks ww mastery.
Four - wrath could be what spreads sunfire , so you do use it during AOE but it is not a gatekeeper on the ramp up. You are casting it because that cast feels good and does something in and of itself. You are not casting it twice just so your real AoE spells can do something. You only need to cast it when you refresh Sunfire.
Five - Likewise Starfire could empower moonfire’s single target damage , maybe consume it and do enough damage that you want to do it with 1/4 of its life left or maybe just add a debuff that explodes when moonfire is reapplied with 1/4 left , expires or is purged. Once again only needed once during a long DoT and not twice every single target eclipse.
Six - change eclipse to balance. After you alternate one wrath and one starfire you are in balance that buffs like both eclipses. When it fades you will likely be already casting one of these so getting back into it is just one spell away instead of casting two spells that feel inappropriate for the kind of fight you are in.
2 Likes
Hang in there man. I hope to be able to see you surprised soon.
1 Like
Please move Lycara’s Teachings up to somewhere else, or allow a connection to it through the other nodes above it to the sides.
Instincts of the Claw also feels bad having to take, and I imagine the same goes for Lore of the Grove (I’m Boomkin so I’ll probably take it anyway)
Remove Corruption should also switch places with Rejuvenation or a connection node from Starfire.
Boomkin: I would literally revert the spec to BfA. The Eclipse system is quite cumbersome and boring, at least for me in PvP. Spreading dots, then entering Eclipse, then spamming Starsurge ~7 times is absolutely mind-numbing (I think class resources in general are WAY too overabundant in DF)
At the very least, Rattle the stars should make Starsurge more expensive, but make it deal even more damage.
The buff to Umbral Intensity is highly appreciated! I’ve been asking for it for ages (as I wish damage would shift more away from procs and RNG and into casting. The problem is that pooling astral power is not much of a calculation anymore, though, as again… You just fire plenty of cheap or free starsurges in a row, making the builder and the spender feel exactly the same… So which exactly is supposed to be the filler?) 
2 Likes
feral feels like an afterthought more so than normal, where in late shadowlands and early dragonflight the design wasn’t overly inspired the throughput was at least acceptable, and it seems that was going to be short lived. the talent and mastery focus on bleeds remains confusing since bite has always been the number one preforming damaging ability in single target, talents like lunar inspiration not contributing to any synergistic talents and not pathing is baffling, berserk and avatar don’t feel overly impactful to the rotation. it’s incredibly frustrating this is the iteration of feral druid that will make it to the live launch of the next expansion. we can only hope for an overhaul or full rework in a future patch or expansion.
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Haha with how much they are trying to make EC work for Balance, boomkins are effectively getting a new version (starfire only) of Eclypse to keep up their streak of always having it redesigned.
I do not like bloodseeker vines. the visual effect is too large, and the effect is entirely passive.
Fluid Form is a fantastic node. I really wish Moonkin form was still in the Druid tree so that other specs could take advantage of fluid form/heart of the wild combo for ranged damage. Maybe make Starfire a baseline spell and put Moonkin form in its place?
1 Like
HotW is really just a resto druid node and they should just move it to the resto tree. No other spec needs to perform outside of their class role. Tanks are gonna tank, they aren’t going to try weave in other forms dps or heal. Dps are gonna dps and if a situation arises where they need to tank or heal, it’s already a wipe. Only healers care about that talent so they can weave in dps in m+.
5 Likes
Yup, unless blizz makes hybrid play actually viable, this is a useless ability. A cooldown to enhance the strength of your already functional off-role is cool. Having a cooldown to be sorta functional (though I wouldn’t say HotW would even get you that far) in a role you’re not really filling while having to stop your current role doesn’t work.
6 Likes
That not completely true, Dps have used it in M+ and tanks have used it as off tank ability during downtime.
Overall class tree needs total overhaul
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if we have to stack mastery in M+ then spec already dead. Cause its does zero damage. They nerfed cantrip effects for healers by 30% and trinkets. rdruid is such bad state in TWW. The class tree somehow got worse. You now just dont have points to take utility. So goodluck supporting your group. We somehow didnt get s4 tier baked into our trees even though it was amazing for druid gameplay. The new hero talents well stink… they removed swarm which was honestly an interesting ability. They moved flourish to choice node that isnt even a choice so removed it from the spec.
What did rdruid get this expansion other then a massive nerf bat?
1 Like
It has very, VERY niche uses outside of healers. I was wrong to say it’s useless for tanks and dps, but it’s used are few and far in between to where if it were replaced with literally anything else, tanks and dps would be fine
Like say replacing it with Convoke, making the resto choice mode of Convoke/tree just tree, putting HotW where tranq is, putting tranq where NS is, and making NS baseline or somewhere in the class tree
1 Like
This. It needs to be replace with Convoke. Or something / anything else.
Its another CD that imo – feels super bad to use and have as a capstone at least as a bear. (But hey, at least we dont have to spend a billion Talent points on it like Incarn, haha)
Heck all of our capstones are really … like not thought out well and just over all bland.
Heart - 5 min CD and for a Bear - unless you’re weaving (which ew - dont come at me, I hate weaving). The only things it buffs is literally : Moonfire and Auto-attack. Whooo.
I avoid it at all costs every time I can - but TWW I’ll be forced to take it with Moonbear.
Other capstone choices are –
One that buffs Regrowth. Which you have to take a talent to even use in bear in the bear tree to make it useful and even then its not all that impactful. (If this has changed, I apologize, I havnt played with it since a bit after it first came out and they promptly gutted it)
Or one when your mediocre ST Damage will heal people.
I wish Blizz would give us better capstone choices but the way they arent giving us any communication and how close we’re getting to Pre-patch - that wont happen.
4 Likes