Feedback: Druids

Some of my initial thoughts based on actually using the current build of balance - the changed mastery, changed starfall, the eclipse control, and shooting stars.

Changed Starfall - The button feels better. It’s stackable and it still follows us, that’s great! It feels like AOE is finally something I can actually have an impact on, even more so with the eclipse change letting us remain in lunar eclipse (effectively) as long as we want to.

Changed Mastery - I can’t really tell what this will mean in raids / dungeons without having more gear / stat control. BUT, initial feel is telling me that this feels better than what it was and will be a healthy change for the long run. (I’ll do a flip if this ends up leading to serious problems in 10.2).

Changed Eclipse - Feels w e i r d, but - the second you get a hang of it, it’s good. I will still think that 2 unempowered spells to be in the right eclipse still feels weird, but at least we’re getting more control over our rotation :slight_smile: Leaf on the Water when :wink:

Shooting Stars - I’ve gotta be honest, I just need logs to see how this has actually changed, cause it feels about the same which is a bit concerning for “dots on aoe meaning something”.

Overall - Things are feeling better, step by step we’re getting there :slight_smile:

I’d put some thoughts regarding the spec talent tree, nodes, locations, costs, but I feel that would be inappropriate seeing as we’re supposedly getting some tree changes. I look forward to more communication.

I have read several tweets and I think it would be a good idea to bring a talent for the class branch that is the effect of Kyrian (Kindred Spirit), which can occupy the position of “Symbiosis” and that gives the effect of statistics (the old one of 10 %) or at least leave it at 5%.
This would bring something fresh to the class branch, plus it would make more sense than putting our covenants on the nodes of our specs (plus I feel the Necrolord doesn’t make much sense being something of the dead or shadows).
And regarding the tweets, does anyone remember the reason why the Kyrian was nerfed in the first place?
Because many said it was because he didn’t go with the class and it doesn’t make much sense because necrolord doesn’t go with the class either (and is the meta for healer) or the venthyr (which is meta for tank) XD

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I compiled some data across all class feedback threads. I was curious about how much communication there’s been from the Devs for other classes.

Class Date of Thread Creation Days w/ Dev Posts Average Days per Response Last Dev Response Dev Feedback on all Specs? Class Tree Feedback?
Rogue 14-Jul 1 63 15-Sep No, Assn/Outlaw No
Druid 14-Jul 2 21 7-Sep No, Guardian No
Hunter 14-Jul 16 4 9-Sep Yes Yes
Priest 14-Jul 3 16 14-Sep Yes Yes
Evoker 14-Jul 3 16 24-Aug Yes Yes
DK 14-Jul 5 13 9-Sep Yes Yes
Shaman 19-Jul 6 9 9-Sep Yes No
Paladin 26-Jul 7 6 9-Sep Yes Yes
Mage 26-Jul 3 13 1-Sep Yes Yes
Warrior 2-Aug 6 8 9-Sep Yes Yes
Warlock 9-Aug 5 6 7-Sep Yes Yes
Monk 17-Aug 3 7 1-Sep No, Brewmaster Yes
DH 24-Aug 5 4 9-Sep Yes No
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Convoke isn’t working after reset for me today. Says I’m in the wrong zone.

Ouch, still?

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Imagine if we had a developer able to communicate to us that our feedback has been heard! :slight_smile:

What a novel and crazy world that would be for us to actually have a functional talent tree for a spec in this game. :slight_smile:

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There are so many ideas that we have given or, well, they have provided here… that I practically don’t know what idea to put, I mention it because I want to give ideas for Rdruid and maybe Feral, but since there are so many comments, I don’t know if they have proposed or no ideas at this point :S

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Ayyyyyy, I can post here now.

So I got Beta access and decided to poke around with a premade 70 and see how things felt for Feral so far. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) the spec - at least so far on a single target - essentially plays exactly the same.

  • Spend OOC procs to maintain Thrash
  • Snapshot Rake and 5cp Rip
  • Brutal Slash / Shred to fill the gaps and get to 5CP/BT
  • Bite

The primary difference is that instead of trying to infinitely extend a Rip, you’re trying to infinitely extend a Tiger’s Fury thanks to the new Raging Fury talent. Micromanaging snapshots inside an extending Tiger’s Fury is actually pretty fun - the problem is where the sources of damage are coming from.

At least with current tuning Bite is still doing way too much damage for our gameplay to be considered having a bleed “emphasis”. Maybe the answer is to explore the snapshotting space a bit more, since that’s one of the things that’s supposed to make Feral stand out from the other DPS specs? I don’t necessarily have any suggestions here, but the current single target gameplay is barely different from Shadowlands when you get right down to it.

Other problems…

  • Eye of Fearful Symmetry feels extremely awful when using Berserk. You end up wasting a bunch of CP inside Zerk due to overflow which feels awful. I’d probably move it to somewhere optional rather than having it gate Incarn/Convoke.
  • I don’t like Cat’s Eye Curio either. You’re going to have Moment of Clarity pretty much 100% of the time, so energy overflow (especially when also using Apex and Soul of the Forest) is not terribly uncommon. I’d move it somewhere optional rather than having it gate Apex.
  • Moonfire has to be more accessible, and especially shouldn’t be behind a finisher talent.
  • Swarm has to be cheaper in order to be purchasable at all in any scenario.
  • I’m not convinced Convoke should stay. 2m/16cast Convoke is pretty awful without the conduit or Grove Invigoration backing it up.
  • There’s a lot of pathing issues in the middle and top of the tree.
  • Innervate, Rebirth, and Incap Roar must be castable in Cat form without shapeshifting.
  • WHERE IS THE PARTY UTILITY

Edit:

The Guardian talent tree needs some kind of divine intervention because that is hot garbage.

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Congratulations. It makes me happy that you were able to receive the beta :slight_smile:
Going back to the topic, apart from the feral, there are many details to improve regarding the trees of the other specs (Healer, Boomy and tank).
Of course, especially the tank that has not received any changes so far and also our general tree that is practically dividing the utilities too much, causing us to have worse access than other classes (which is not something of the druid fantasy that it is about of a hybrid).
I hope you can reassess enough the situation of our general trees of each spec:

-Make changes corresponding to the tank
-Improve the aoe or explosive burst of the feral apart from giving them some kind of utility
-Change Rdruid mastery and give them at least 1 (non-covenant) dps talent like other healers
-Boomy… I don’t have much to say, but I guess it would be useful if this one had some talent that would allow him to reduce his burst CD

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Accurate!

Me cries.

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Balance Feedback

After the most recent bout of Balance Druid changes there was a lot of stuff that excites me. At the same time there is a considerable amount of stuff that is worrisome. I understand there is a bunch of stuff not implemented on the Beta currently for Balance, but with the pre-patch speculated to come out in a bit over a month I would rather write this feedback now.

TLDR

  • Shooting Stars DR changes.
  • Massive talent node changes.
  • Furor Removal.
  • Starfall remaining Starfall.

Shooting Stars

Overall, the change to shooting stars was something that needed to happen. I am faily displeased with the way it was changed. For those unaware, it got changed from a 15% proc chance to 25% proc chance. While this is really good on something like single target, there is still pretty steep diminishing returns on the ability itself.

Here is a graph plotting diminishing returns on Shooting Stars where the blue line is 15% proc, the green line is the newly implemented 25% proc, and the red line is 15% proc chance with diminishing returns starting after 5 targets. As you notice the curve is far less steep and will improve our Astral Power generation specifically on AOE considerably. With the massive changes (positve ones) to our mastery that encourage dotting on AOE more frequently we need a way to consistently generate more astral power on AOE.

Just overall, your DOTs are such a high priority on AOE, second only to starfall. This is how Balance Druid AOE should play, but you should be heavily promoted in 8-10 target situations after you get all of your DOTs applied. There is no reason that there should be such a steep diminishing return on Shooting Stars.

Node Changes

Top of the tree

The top part of the tree is honestly fine, if nothing changed about it from now until live there would be minimal complaints. There is a major question about how Celestial Alignment will change, but that will likely be answered in a few days.

Owlkin Frenzy is really weird to be an actual node and there could be a reasonable argument to put Solar Beam in the pace where Owlkin Frenzy is.

Middle part of the Tree

This is where all the pathing problems start to occur. First off our nodes are very disjointed where you have half of your AOE talents on the left and the other half on the right. Meanwhile you have to path through mandatory single target nodes to get to the AOE options. For example, Starlord is in between Shooting Stars, Solstace, Pulsar, and Orbit Breaker. Additionally, Improved Starsurge is in between 3 Starfall nodes. We know that Improved Starsurge is going away, but this node’s placement is suboptimal. Another thing is Power of Goldrinn is locked behind Solar Beam. With there being very few 0 DPS node choices in the Balance tree, this means that Goldrinn has to be THAT much better on ST to be a realistic choice.

Stellar Drift needs a major change. With how our AOE functions now, you cannot lock starfall out for 12 seconds. I think removing the damage bonus to Stellar Drift, changing it to give larget radius (similar to legion), and maintain the casting while moving would be a good start. Putting it as an optional node off to the side of starfall where you are not forced to path through is also something that needs to change.

Stellar Inspiration and Umbral Intensity are both incredibly bland nodes, and they could use a bit of updating in some capacity. Moving Umbral Infusion (T29 4 Set) here would be really nice.

Capstone Nodes

Circle of Life and Death and the Adaptive Swarm / BOAT choice node is very boring. I personally do not like the playstyles this promotes overall. I also think there is mass room for more interesting nodes in this spot.

The Syzygy / Pulsar and Orbit breaker node is an absolute banger. Probably the highlight of the tree.

Incarn / Convoke and Cooldown Bonus node needs to be changed in some capacity. I feel like Incarn and Convoke should not be a choice node for balance as a whole. They both could be their own penultimate / capstone traits. For Incarn you could have an IFE style CDR effect as opposed to the Ashen Hallow style CDR effect that was initially proposed. This would allow for ~2m CD on Celesital Alignment while not always being the go-to option. For convoke I could see that talent also being a penultimate option while an exceptional spell variation could be the capstone on that. Alternatively, you could make it 1m Convoke as the capstone as well without reducing it to 12 spells. These 2 changes would make our capstones highly encouraged to take.

With Umbral Infusion and FOE / Moon it feels like Moon is the only talent worthy of being a Capstone Trait. I think that Fury of Elune should move to where Stellar Drift currently is or somewhere else higher in the tree (potentially where blessings are). Then Umbral Infusion should move to one of the Stellar Inspiration / Umbral Intensity nodes. Then this would allow Moon to be the penultimate choice while having a moon themed capstone trait (potentially Radiant Moonlight).

The Blessing Choice and OI / Dreambinder choice is honestly a fine node choice. Something needs to change about blessings now that eclipse does not alternate. This is a potential spot for Fury of Elune to move to.

Furor

First off, Furor is so buggy on Beta at the moment. Even when it isn't bugged, conceptually stance dancing as a Balance Druid is something that scares me. As a capstone in the class tree, this creates major issues when there can be significant sources of power in a tree where that is largely absent. Additionally, it creates a playstyle that is very unfriendly for 3 out of the 4 Druid specs.

The druid class tree as a whole is one that is viewed pretty fondly, but Furor needs to be reworked.

Starfall

There has been a lot of feedback on this, but the class fantasy surrounding Starfall is one that you have this massive radius following you around. With it being a targeted radius, it puts the playstyle of balance similar to Elemental Shaman and Destruction Warlock. Having 3 copies of the same builder spender seems very bland.

I understand the initial concern on spread AOE in the state of the game, but when you break it down there is a lot lacking in the moonkin kit on the AOE department. Balance as a general rule has a large amount of ramp time (even more now with the changes to our mastery). With this ramp time being apparent and the lack of strong on demand burst, this puts starfall in a position where it isn’t an oppressively strong AOE ability. We’ll still be very far behind classes like MM Hunter, Havoc DH, etc on instant burst AOE. This leaves us in a spot where spread AOE and sustained AOE can be damage profiles that Balance Druid does excel in.

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Thanks you! You worded my concerns perfectly. And yes, we need to have strong on demand burst for m+ as example #owlbrother

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Hello everyone :smiley_cat:

I recently made a forum post expressing things about the Feral tree I’d like altered but in this post I’d like to update that.

Having played around with the tree quite a bit in the last few days/week I’m starting to love it more and more and a lot of the build options we have seem impactful. There’s meaningful choice in AOE and in ST builds.

My new main concerns with Feral:

  1. Ashamane’s Guidance is a weak talent because Incarn is a weak talent and proccing it isn’t much of a big deal and Convoke being 3 seconds instead of 4 seconds is pointless it should instead be 1min CD + increased chance at exceptional spell cast. Right now it’ll probably never be taken ??

  2. Unbridled Swarm is too costly for where it is in the tree. Needing to spend 3 points to bring Adaptive Swarm online in AOE would result in dropping major beneficial talents elsewhere, e.g. Convoke, Circle + Soul etc.

  3. Berserk as a 3minute cd feels bad. I’d like to see it as a 2min CD baseline.

  4. Piercing Claws is criminally undertuned. It’s a dead-end trait that costs 2 talent points for 4% crit. It needs buffing in some manner.

  5. Protective Growth is also undertuned and I can’t see it getting much use at all. Needs to be buffed or reworked slightly. I do really like the idea of some kind of defensive/utility option here.

  6. Rip and Tear is very weak right now and needs a big buff to make it competitive, I’d hate to see this get overlooked.

Class Tree

Furor needs to be reworked/deleted and something else added in it’s place. No one spec is particularly excited to take it.

If a dev reads this I’d like to say keep up the great work and thanks for making a really fun first tree.

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This is why the talent making Lifebloom count as 3 is so huge. That along with another adding the regrowth heal to it automatically makes Lifebloom an instant, cheap application of 4 hots. You can then use that for spot healing. Its a strong option that really makes mastery way more valuable.

I think that is what they meant too, changes like that one pushing mastery to be more of just a tank healing mechanic.

And that’s good. The gameplay that sabertooth creates is toxic and bad. Extension had to go

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It’s fine to have one or two talents that synergize with mastery, but there are two simple problems with this.

1-it is not very versatile, because in M+ healers have been divided into two categories, which are: those that support (such as priest, rshammy or others), that provide buffs or utilities that are very useful or required in M+. And then there are the performance healers (Hpally, MW and rdruid) and the detail falls on us to support our lack of unique utility (because our utilities already have them from other classes, even improved and there is also the detail that not all of them are required for M+) we will have to, like the ones already mentioned, do dps and that is where our mastery is not flexible. Since we waste time putting many hots (to increase the healing in these compared to other masteries that are more opportunities in critical moments or that do not affect the dps rotation so much) and even if we try to put it before (that is, pre-hot) we will still be losing time and dps, which literally all healers can do well even with the support of their mastery.

2- It is not the best friend in raid, because we have to stack several hots to increase its heal… in raid it can be useful in certain circumstances, but it is not something that we say can help 100%. For example, in SL it can be noticed a bit more, thanks to the convoke (1min with legendary) along with the tier. But these would be in DF, but unfortunately the convoke would be nerfed, so now we’ll have to stack again and that could be annoying. If we compare the other masteries they are a little better (only some), as is the case with Hpriest, MW, Rshammy and Disc priest.

Also, an update would not hurt us, as long as they know how to handle it, such as adding an extra effect like “every 2% mastery increases the duration of your hots” or every “2% mastery makes your hots heal a little more Quick”. This way it would help a lot for raid, M+ and maybe a bit in pvp (maybe).

It’s great to see this plotted out to demonstrate just why shooting stars, as a significant part of AP generation in the Balance toolkit, just feels like it completely lacks punch in AoE.

There are very few effects in the game that are target-capped, or hit diminishing retuns before 5 or 8 targets. I think there’s almost universal agreement in the community - which also seems reflected in spell changes across most classes in the past twelve months - that target-capping substantively impacts performance and gameplay in the modern game. I this context, the current design philsophy of shooting stars makes pretty much zero sense.

This comment really surprises me, unless it’s a general view of the breadth of class fantasy of the Druid, rather than the actual tree itself.

I’m surprised you aren’t seeing the stark melee/caster divide between the two sides of the tree, and the extraordinarily poor pathing to utility options. Perhaps this is less obvious from a balance perspective - our melee bretheren likely see this more clearly. Could you perhaps elaborate on your fondness for the class tree, pathing, and access to utility, as it currently stands?

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Viewed fondly? :grimacing:

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Maybe he’s got insider info that we cant see yet and he’s foretelling of things to come?

Fairly important bug that needs to be hot fixed. I’ve reported the bug in game several times:

Balance Druid and Guardian Druid trees Convoke the Spirits node do not work. They do not put the spell in the spell book and the spell cannot be manually casted via /cast. It works for Resto and Feral Druid trees. Can this be hot fixed? Makes it very difficult to test trees appropriately. TY

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