Nice attempt to deflect, but you still don’t know how to play bear.
Really love this idea. It does not seem gamebreaking, and if it would be then perhaps the abilities should have two different modifiers based on the spec, but it would be awesome to play around with building up the Ursine Potential stacks, swapping into Bear to heal and wallop someone with a big Mangle (and probably fire off an Ironfur with the extra rage that then carries over into Cat Form) and doing that enough times to build up enough Feline Potential stacks to hit someone with a big Rip or Bite for some nice burst damage.
This tree already is pretty much exactly what I wanted as a PvP Feral, but that interplay between Cat and Bear would be a great addition – especially because I get the feeling that Empowered Shapeshifting granting the ability to cast Frenzied Regeneration in Cat Form is a bit of a bait in PvP, so having a true choice between Empowered Shapeshifting and Wildpower Surge would be great.
2 Likes
Somebody wanna tell him? I always love meeting my fans 
Look I don’t have a horse in this race either way but do you have to do this childish e-peen measuring contest in the official feedback thread? Maybe leave some space for some actual feedback replies? I don’t think this kind of behavior is a great way to get Blizzard to take either of you seriously.
6 Likes
Nobody wants to chase the tank around while they’re kiting so they get a few spells off.
Also, since you have to leave bear form and lose autos for massive attack and TnC and rage gen, and rage spend on incarn CDR, this Potential rip would need to have its damage tripled and AoE to payoff the risk.
Tanking is about control. You do high keys, so you know what I’m talking about. If the tank is kiting the mobs all over hell to eke out an extra 3% personal dps, it’ll drive dps insane. I just don’t think there’s any way to make weaving fun or viable. Even in shadowlands it wasn’t that great, it was super niche and accounted for a minimal dps gain, and that’s when it didn’t lock you out of playing incarn.
I’m withholding judgement until I see the class and spec tree changes, but at first blush, to me, this looks like high risk, no reward trap. I’d have much rather had a deafening roar AoE silence spell there or a mark of ursol back.
I match energies. I didn’t realize I needed to play bear every single season to be allowed to give feedback.
Certainly you don’t need to. You don’t need to justify that to me. What you shouldn’t do though is dilute your feedback with this pointless tit for tat bickering. You don’t need to reward childish behavior with more childish behavior.
4 Likes
Typhoon
Vortex
Boss fights
Choreographed stops
And outside of very small windows on boss fights that are easily predicted, dodged, and easy to hold until it passes, what threat is there? Auto attacks are barely noticeable
Why are you hyper fixated on the ST aspect or the one ability?
Bear to cat: Rip, HotW, Convoke, FB, back to bear. Same applies for moonkin if you’d prefer the ranged aspect (i think Starfall has more potential in AoE setting like in SL).
Youve got a very one track mindset about this dont you? I dont think any tank in their right mind is going to purposely risk a a wipe for that 1% increase. But theres plenty of pulls you can use it on. First that comes to mind is the pull before second boss in BRH.
And since we carry 80% of our health and IF carries over, theres nothing stopping us from using it at the tail end of pulls or using it at the start of another pull as we gather mobs.
Youre so stuck on the idea of it being used middle of a pull with 12 mobs still fully alive and wailing away on you
You don’t have to weave if you dont want to. But it seems a lot of us are excited at the possible potential to do so. Forums have asked for shapeshifting to be more viable throughout the years
2 Likes
You aren’t withholding judgement, you are exaggerating things you know nothing about. Pick the other node, play the same old Guardian and carry on. I really don’t understand you people who continue to complain when Blizzard quite literally have catered for you by giving you an alternative option via the choice node and even an alternative Hero tree.
It just reads as ‘I don’t find it fun so nobody else should.’
Pick the other option.
Yeah because that’s all weaving is and they didn’t just add a node about retaining defensives.
If you guys are trying to construct a serious argument that weaving doesn’t add a tone of potential to gameplay then you are wasting your time, nobody is buying what you’re selling.
Nobody said this, you have the same right as everyone, but you and Gumble, two people, don’t need to occupy quite literally 15-20% of all posts in this thread complaining and exaggerating things regarding Catweaving, or obsessing over pre-alpha tuning numbers on a preview.
You don’t need to resort to this or posting logs, it’s cringe beyond belief. Weaving is back, they aren’t going to rework the entire tree and all the synergies because of 2 people, move on with your day.
4 Likes
Part 2 of I guess 3, largely intended for 
here but a few minor things relevant for 
. Focus largely on gameplay concerns here (if I haven’t said, I really like this tree, but don’t want to bloat this going over too many positives).
Overwriting Procs
- Overwriting procs are a concern given Feral naturally can’t immediately send a proc nearly as quickly as Guardian can.
- I think the proc may need to stack twice, because you may not have the combo points or the energy at any given time and it’d be so bad if this tree punished you for even something as simple as waiting for energy.
- Stacking twice also allows you to space out your procs and maximise the bleed uptime at times, which is very neat but simple gameplay (synergy with other aspects in the tree that reward spacing procs out), though naturally with energy limitations the spec will do this naturally a lot of the time (Guardian is kind of the opposite where they can spend the proc faster due to a big disparity in resource costs, but may want to allow for 2 stacks here anyway so there’s some gameplay in choosing how you use each proc).
Deterministic Procs
- There’s very few ways to guarantee proc Massive Attack and that means the vast majority of our Massive Attacks are pure RNG.
- Do I really need to write out all the problems this being RNG creates?
- I won’t, but let me emphasize: deterministic ways to get the proc (i.e the Tiger’s Fury node) would feel good and not only mitigate RNG concerns, but also creates synergy with other aspects of our kit.
- Feral Frenzy/Pulv giving guaranteed proc is one way, then add at least 1 or 2 more and you can naturally lower the proc chance from autos and there we have it, a nice middle ground.
Proc Rate
- Hopefully autos have a nice smooth proc rate without feeling like you need to rush to spend as Feral, though of course 2 stacks helps with this.
- Exception being I like the fact you will want to try rush a bit more in Berserk to spend procs as it goes well with the increase in resources (Zerk in part 3 whenever I get to it).
- I personally don’t believe Haste should affect this proc rate (nor things like auto speed and so on) else it’s going to change too much over the course of the expansion, especially as other resources like energy go up.
- Massive attack not rapid attack, would it really feel special to be proccing and spamming it?
- Can add value for Haste through putting power in the bleed, and other things.
Dreadful Wound and Aggravate Wounds (bleed + extension)
- Bleed smoothes out RNG a bit because it creates a degree of wastefulness with chain proccing.
- Bleed extension same logic, if you have limited procs at least you can get more value out of extending your proc.
- Nice simple gameplay here where it encourages you to spend after a Massive Attack to extend the bleed. Also some neat gameplay in pooling energy to get more out of this.
- For Feral I don’t see why all combo point generating abilities aren’t included, the spec is naturally limited with how much it can extend due to energy anyway (excluding Rake from Capstone benefit is good however as allows you to freely refresh Rake in Zerk, will note whenever I do part 3).
- As for Guardian there’s maybe some reward for pooling and dumping Rage right after each Massive Attack.
- Extension effect should surely be more than 0.4 sec though, it would almost be unnoticeable currently, especially given the synergies this has across the tree (per my next point).
- 5% Agi buff nice synergy with this (could be higher), the auto buff also seems good for Bear to get TnC procs after to extend.
- Lot of synergies in the Feral tree with various talent nodes too I won’t get into here in the interest of time.
Ultimately without Dreadful Wound and Aggravate Wounds this is just another Bite/Raze, so I would think a fair bit of power would be in these nodes.
Apex
- Will this consume Massive Attack? Few issues here IMO.
- Means they will miss out on Saber Jaws benefit, feeling bad if you get an Apex proc before spending a MA proc.
- Means PW-TOW focused builds continue to spam one finisher with their energy/CPs. Better gameplay in having to occasionally weave these with Bites/Energy (and given you are buffing PW 100% I assume this is the case to keep PW-TOW builds competitive).
- Also would feel kind of cheap when you just use Massive Attacks with Apex with no resource cost. Plus you’d only be reacting to Apex procs at that point (in AOE anyway), not Massive Attack procs.
Damage Profile
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Based on the live version of the game, Bite/MA seemingly going to occupy way too huge of a portion of our damage where everything else may feel too weak, as yeah it’s one thing to add a more powerful Bite but it’s going to skew our regular talent tree towards Bite talents as well.
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That being said I think things like TFB/Saber Jaws are really interesting with the tree, no issue with certain talents gaining a lot with this tree if the synergies are there.
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Bestial Strength does not need to include 5% Bite damage – not only to mitigate damage profile concerns but also to distinguish Massive Attack from regular Bite.
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I think you can do some talent tuning to mitigate the dmg profile, e.g. this tree is going to love Apex and that will also skew the Bite profile. You could just naturally adjust Apex profile some while also finding ways to make it better for Wildstalker, e.g. adjusting the ST proc rate but to off-set this increasing the values of the Sabertooth buff (which by the way, could also potentially buff Bloodseeker Vines).
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That being said it’s way too early to even be discussing this stuff but moreso wanted to note as a potential early warning.
5 Likes
Ahanss coming out with the banger feedback post as per usual.
I’m more hoping that the animations for Massive Attack are cool. Both Feral and Guardian could use some pizazz for animations.
6 Likes
Curious, what does it add?
All you can get out of it is extra single target damage, which, fine, if they tune it high enough is a choice you could make.
The issue is that with an entire tree focused around Maul, swapping to cat in order to eek out a bit more single target damage goes AGAINST the entire rest of the tree.
Cheezy, you are smart enough to actually know that. It would be the equvialent of swapping to bear and having all your bleeds be removed from the target as a cat. Sure, you COULD make it worth it damage wise, but how much damage would they have to add in order to justify it.
I have suggested they could also just make Rip (and maybe Rake) usable in bear form, allowing bear to have more dots to use in a single target setting, but that does dilute the damage profile. Personally I’d enjoy that, I like seeing alot of dots on the target, but it isn’t like the damage is going to come from nowhere. They will just take damage from the rest of the kit to balance it out.
So you end up with talents that are either going to be 1) not taken for serious content or 2) balanced so rediculously that you have to take it because your damage is balanced now around it (see trees for resto druids that have become their healing kit).
My argument is that trying to make cat weaving work is either going to end up a niche thing that people don’t really use, or dominating the tree so heavily that it ends up balanced poorly.
But you know what, I’m tired of watch people try to ruin this spec. I don’t even have an intention to play it, but I can see where a Beserk Mangle Massive Attack Incarn build is going to be up alot of people’s alley, and cat just doesn’t belong there.
Almost like you’re given the choice to cat weave or…take the passive damage boost. Would be a shame
Is catweaving really a choice if it ends up being a significant damage boost over the passive talents, though? At least for people who care about their own performance?
Depends on the risk vs reward. If the reward is worth the risk.
If youre not the best at juggling things as a tank (or prefer LS over BT for example), then passives may net higher rewards
All depends on numbers that we have yet to see. Weve got place holder names so far and thats it
Right, I said “if it ends up being a significant damage boost” which means they tune it in such a way that taking the passive option is worse. In that case is it a choice?
Look, I’d really rather not play another expansion of pewpew moonbear, and while I don’t mind the thought of another thing to juggle mechanically I don’t like this implementation involving the dead GCDs required to make it work. If we’re functionally just adding a single button (Rip) to the rotation, why not just make Wildpower Surge proc the ability to cast Rip in Bear Form?
If only there were a Boomcat hero talent tree. Dot swapping between moonkin and cat.
Yes, because in 95% of this game’s content you can play literally any class and spec and clear it without much trouble. Most players would probably perform better using the passive options instead of copying the “top performing” specs and playing them poorly.
5 Likes
That has never been how the “people who care about their performance” segment of the game has functioned and you know it. Why be intentionally obtuse rather than just saying “no, it’s not a choice in this instance. If the numbers are better this is what you will have to do even if you hate it.”?
Yes. Because even if it supposed to be better, but you play it improperly, its worse
Like bloodtalons. I think the magic number is 70% of finishers need to be BT in order for it to pull ahead of LS without major overcapping/writing of combo points and dots
FB too iirc. But it was discussed that adding buttons for the sake of buttons is a no go.
Because thats not the case. And different people have different levels of caring. I care about my performance, but not enough to swap to meta every season
2 Likes